What do you think about this quote?

[ZiSunka]

"Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified."

"Narcissism Goes to Church: Encountering Evangelical Worship" (http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/narcissism_goes_to_church.htm) by Monte Wilson.

[Crazy Liz]

I think the quote uses narcissism as a bogeyman to label as evil some very complex changes, partly good and partly bad.

I think some of the things this author is complaining about have to do with consumerism, which perhaps the Anabaptist and Quaker traditions and disciplines of simplicity could help answer, if we were willing to examine these old practices in a new way.

Some of the changes this author wrongly describes as narcissism has to do with modern - postmodern shifts. It fails to examine thoughtfully whether believing necessarily precedes belonging or belonging precedes believing.

These were just two thoughts that came to mind reading the quote than made me think the author's view is overly simplistic and his rhetoric is aimed at galvanizing opposition before thinking through all the complexities. In that way, the rhetoric is ironic indeed.

[ZiSunka]

It is a simplification of his overall these, I'll give you that. In the larger article, he makes more sense and less sense at the same time.

I agree that the idea that a church should satisfy all our needs and only our needs is a little self-serving, though.

I know a couple guys who are wandering around from church to church, denomination to denomination to find the one that they agree with 100%.

One of these guys even told me the reason he doesn't like the church his wife goes to is that the pastor hasn't made him the center of his attention yet. He wants to be begged to join the church and have the pastor beg to know why he won't join. He thinks the pastor has a responsibility to make him feel like he is in the presence of God during every service and to make him grow in Christ without him having to have any responsibility for his own growth. This guy isn't that unusual. Church is all about him and what he can gain from it while being completely passive in his own life. It's like church is a TV show he doesn't like very much and he's looking for the church that will producce an "It's All About Me" show all about him.

There are people, more than I realized before, who would fit this profile.

[Joykins]

Brought to mind this quote from _The Screwtape Letters_

Surely you know that if a man can't be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that 'suits' him until he becomes a taster or conoisseur of churches....the search for a 'suitable' church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in church is a attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it does not appraise--does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptivity to any nourishment that is going (You see how grovelling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!). This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to our whole policy) in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul. There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round of the neighbouring churches as soon as possible.

[LittleladyinChrist]

Our whole society is narcassistic, its all about me didnt you know. Its no wonder that this has seeped into our churches since half (or more) of Christians dont separate themselfs from the worlds entertainment, music etc. Realisitically.

The following is excerpted from “Study: College Students More Narcissistic,” The Associated Press, February 26: “Today’s college students are more narcissistic and self-centered than their predecessors, according to a comprehensive new study by five psychologists who worry that the trend could be harmful to personal relationships and American society. ‘We need to stop endlessly repeating “You’re special” and having children repeat that back,’ said the study’s lead author, Professor Jean Twenge of San Diego State University. ‘Kids are self-centered enough already.’ Twenge and her colleagues, in findings to be presented at a workshop Tuesday in San Diego on the generation gap, examined the responses of 16,475 college students nationwide who completed an evaluation called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory between 1982 and 2006. The standardized inventory, known as the NPI, asks for responses to such statements as ‘If I ruled the world, it would be a better place,’ ‘I think I am a special person’ and ‘I can live my life any way I want to.’ The researchers describe their study as the largest ever of its type and say students' NPI scores have risen steadily since the current test was introduced in 1982. By 2006, they said, two-thirds of the students had above-average scores, 30 percent more than in 1982. ... Twenge, the author of ‘Generation Me: Why Today’s Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled -- and More Miserable Than Ever Before,’ said narcissists tend to lack empathy, react aggressively to criticism and favor self-promotion over helping others. The researchers traced the phenomenon back to what they called the ‘self-esteem movement’ that emerged in the 1980s, asserting that the effort to build self-confidence had gone too far. ... Current technology fuels the increase in narcissism,' Twenge said. ‘By its very name, MySpace encourages attention-seeking, as does YouTube.’ ... [The study’s co-author W. Keith] Campbell said the narcissism upsurge seemed so pronounced that he was unsure if there were obvious remedies. ‘'Permissiveness seems to be a component,’ he said. ‘A potential antidote would be more authoritative parenting. Less indulgence might be called for.’”

[ZiSunka]

I see the church listed on your homepage is KBC. What does that stand for?

Does your church have a statement of faith I can look at? :)

[LittleladyinChrist]

http://www.kitchenerbaptistchurch.com/statement.html

Thats the church I go to. God bless

--Alicia

[ZiSunka]

Cool! Thanks!

I like to learn about different churches when I hear abou them. :)

[catlover]

"Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified."

"Narcissism Goes to Church: Encountering Evangelical Worship" (http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/narcissism_goes_to_church.htm) by Monte Wilson.

On the basis of that quote, should I attend a church where I am told I am rotten bad person??

[LittleladyinChrist]

On the basis of that quote, should I attend a church where I am told I am rotten bad person??
We all are rotten bad people, the Bible tells you that! The only way not to be is through Jesus Christ.

[ZiSunka]

On the basis of that quote, should I attend a church where I am told I am rotten bad person??

I would hope we would all want to go to a church that helps us grow in the likeness of the Lord, from wherever we are now.

If we are bad and rotten people, it does us no good for the pastor to lie to us and tell us we are great. Conversely, it does not good to hear that we are bad and rotten if we aren't.

Too bad there isn't any middle ground between hearing that we are great and hearing that we are rotten. ;)

Maybe if we compare ourselves to the Lord we WILL feel bad and rotten, but happy that He's not going to leave us in our bad and rotten state. In fact, I think people who go through a period of feeling the weight of their sin are more grateful when they realize that Jesus's grace lifts all that away from us! :clap:

But that's not really what this thread is about. It's about whether or not church is about your self-esteem and entertainment. Should you choose a church based on whether or not you have positive emotions and feel important while you are there?

[catlover]

But that's not really what this thread is about. It's about whether or not church is about your self-esteem and entertainment. Should you choose a church based on whether or not you have positive emotions and feel important while you are there?


No, church should not be about entertainment, and emotions are pretty unrealiable.

[ZiSunka]

Agreed. :)

That's why it seems so weird to me when people say they are looking for a church that gives them spiritual feelings, where the pastor begs them to become a member, where the pastor designs his sermons around that one person's desires. It seems pretty immature to me to have to be the center of attention in a church in order to feel like it's the right church.

I wonder...people who are constantly on a search for "the right church," are they constantly going to new churches because at some level they know that new people get a lot of attention and when that attention wanes, they go find another new church so they can be the center of attention again?

[CelticRose]

Huh? I'm lost. Do people do this? I thought it was about prefering others above ourselves, taking up our cross & following Christ, denying the flesh etc. I haven't met any Christians who carry on as you describe.

[ZiSunka]

You have, you just don't realize it.

They can cover it up with spiritual-sounding phrases like, "I just don't feel the presence of God in that church," or "God isn't with that pastor because his sermons don't hit home for me." Sometimes even things like, "I'm on a spiritual search for the church that completes me."

And a couple of the posters who used to come here all the time said repeatedly, "I feel the pull to such-and-such a church because I feel so good after the service." One of them recently posted on his blog that he doesn't like his current church because his pastor hasn't begged him to join and hasn't singled him out for a one-on-one conversation. Even though he has given the pastor repeated messages that he hates the church and isn't interested in joining. And Even though his wife has begged him to stop church-shopping and settle down so the kids can get a good spiritual basis in life.

A woman who used to be a close friend told me that she chose her present church because they televise their services and she often gets to see herself on TV. No kidding.

It does happen. For a lot of people.

[CelticRose]

Sorry. Where I am people have no choice if they want to worship as the church, so the comments are not ones I have heard in real life. There is NOWHERE to shop around. What we have is what we have.

[ZiSunka]

That's probably a good thing. At least people can't spend all their time complaining instead of following the teachings of Christ! :D

But you have, in this forum, known several men who would fit that description to a T. They are all over the board, looking for the denomination that fits all their criteria and offers them emotional fulfilment. As I said, two men here said they don't believe God is present in their churches because they don't have an emotionally spiritual feeling after the service and the pastor hasn't begged them to join the church. They want to be sought out to be spiritual leaders in their church without having to do any of the hard work that comes with that, like being active in the church, or accepting roles like sunday school teacher or other low-level positions. They want to be brought up front and welcomed in like they were the most important person there.

Sad, I know. :(

[CelticRose]

I thought one of the critea for being a leader was being a servant of all?

[ZiSunka]

Exactly.

Unfortunately, many Christians totally ignore that part of the teachings of Christ.

A lot of people refuse to live out the teachings of Christ, then they complain that their spiritual life is dull and barren. :(

[MrJim]

Just a note to y'all:

I've been guilty of the quotes above. I realize it now. I will say that when I read some of the comments earlier they were painful because some fit me, and I was angry...but things happened.

1. There's a sharp piece of iron that keeps sharpening against me no matter how hard I run away from it. And when you sharpen something that is very dull you have to use a very coarse stone to get an edge on it, and then use increasingly finer stones to get the desired edge. Being worked by a coarse stone is difficult but necessary.

2. Pastor spoke a sermon Sunday about leaving your first love, from the letter to the Ephesian church in Revelation. It was very convicting-he spoke of pursuing after religion but forgetting Christ in it all...

3. A lady a church went into the hospital at Hershey Medical Center for what might be MS. She's an elder (I think), works like a dog, then works like a dog at church. Her husband does the same. Sunday morning in SS we were praying for her and others were talking about all she does and I thought "why does she do it--burning herself out" and the answer was like a 2x4 upside the head when a voice inside said "cause no one else will". Another guy in the church needs to retire and rest but he keeps teaching SS and doing other things, and his wife is very broken down but just won't quit and I can count the few that give it their all in that congregation and I sit there week after week hiding behind my superior "spiritual" arrogant attitude of "I'm only here till I find something better" and not helping because "I'm not a member". Yeah, I suck.

So I say all that to say I spoke with my wife and we are going to become members at the Baptist church we've been attending. It's American baptist-maybe a bit less conservative than I'd like, but then, this is where God has placed us, and instead of second guessing, why not just get to work where I am? I'm going to engage into the life of the congregation instead of hiding behind my kids and excuses, and submit myself to the pastor and to whatever work they want me to do. (Time think less of me, and that's hard to do when you're a spoiled boy like me;) )

So thanks to God, and thanks to Zi, who at times frustrates me till I scream, yet like medicine once taken you're better for it. Forgive me for being a jerk at times, and thanks for not giving up.:hug:

Love
Jim
"menno"

[ZiSunka]

And I forgive you for thinking that I lied to you about Andy, Andrea and Mimi. If I have something to say to you, I just say it directly. I don't have to pretend to be other people to tell you what's on my mind.

[MrJim]

And I forgive you for thinking that I lied to you about Andy, Andrea and Mimi. If I have something to say to you, I just say it directly. I don't have to pretend to be other people to tell you what's on my mind.

Your forgiveness is treasured-thank you.

[mac8]

I believe the discipleship/formation process needs to address this, so that new Christians can begin their lives in the church prepared to largely take responsibility for their own growth and nurturing, and be able to go to church just to give, without needing position or significance, but being prepared to love, to welcome, and to engage in mission alongside those in the church.

Our focus surely needs to be on mission, on spreading the gospel and working out how to be the people of God out in our communities, not on being consumers of church culture. But to get that through involves an entire cultural shift in many of our churches.

But cultural change is traumatic! :0)

Blessings
E.

[ZiSunka]

One of my fears is that we are so focused on evagelism, that once a person is saved, we drop them and move on to the next unsaved person. And during the evangelism process, the focus is on the person, so they feel justified in thinking that the focus will always be on them.

I agree that we need to be more invovled in discipling. Jesus didn't just tell us to go out and spread the gospel, we need to make disciples, too.

But when the potential disciples all have the attitude that someone should gear all the lessons toward them personally and spoon-feed them every bite for the rest of their lives or they get mad and look for a "better" church that will cater to them, it makes it hard to disciple. Because discipling isn't something you do AT someone, it's something you do WITH them. If they are so narcissistic that they refuse to participate, they can't be discipled. :(

[CelticRose]

Zisunka is right about discipling not just spreading the gospel. We were told to make disciples & I don't appreciate churches that don't grow people up in the Lord. We are to move on from milk to strong meat. If that is done properly there are more workers to gather in the harvest.

[ZiSunka]

Zisunka is right about discipling not just spreading the gospel. We were told to make disciples & I don't appreciate churches that don't grow people up in the Lord. We are to move on from milk to strong meat. If that is done properly there are more workers to gather in the harvest.

But it's also up to the individual to seek and accept discipling.

So many Christians get a notion in their heads that by the time they know everything and they're ready to be leaders, not disciples.

But each of us will be disciples the rest of our lives. Even if God calls us to a leadership role, we will always have to be disciples, too.

[CelticRose]

For me that is a given ~ but I enjoy learning much more than I enjoy teaching. As in most areas of life a balance must be struck.

[ZiSunka]

Me, too!

[CelticRose]

:) :thumbsup: