Do you ask the Saints to pray for you?

[PaladinGirl]

Because my other poll had a flaw in it, I decided to create a different poll with different wording. So please vote in my poll and please only Anglicans/Episcopalians. I do not mean to exclude my brethren in the Old Catholic Church. I am just trying to get an idea of how prevalent this is among Anglicans and Episcopalians.

[gtsecc]

Absolutely.
To do otherwise is to have a flawed view of Christianity.
As Western Christians, everyone knows Christ died for Sins.
What a disturbing number don't know, or really think about, is the defeat of death, which separates us from God and all the saints.

A fuller understanding of the Christian understanding of personhood makes clear that our identity is indissolvably bound up in who God is. God is three persons in perfect relationship with each other. We are made in this image. Our identity has everything to do with both our relationship with God, and our relationship with other people, including those who have gone before us. Christ is in perfect communion with God, and with humanity.

[PaladinGirl]

Absolutely.
To do otherwise is to have a flawed view of Christianity.
As Western Christians, everyone knows Christ died for Sins.
What a disturbing number don't know, or really think about, is the defeat of death, which separates us from God and all the saints.

A fuller understanding of the Christian understanding of personhood makes clear that our identity is indissolvably bound up in who God is. God is three persons in perfect relationship with each other. We are made in this image. Our identity has everything to do with both our relationship with God, and our relationship with other people, including those who have gone before us. Christ is in perfect communion with God, and with humanity.
I agree gtsecc. Great post!

[Naomi4Christ]

Because my other poll had a flaw in it, I decided to create a different poll with different wording. So please vote in my poll and please only Anglicans/Episcopalians. I do not mean to exclude my brethren in the Old Catholic Church. I am just trying to get an idea of how prevalent this is among Anglicans and Episcopalians.
No in the last poll, so no in this one too.

[JasonV]

Sorry Peace02. I voted before I read your OP about leaving us Old Catholics out. Disregard my "yes" vote.

[gtsecc]

And dost thou believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholick Church; the Communion of Saints; the Remission of sins; the Resurrection of the flesh; and everlasting life after death?
Answer. All this I stedfastly believe.

Some people don't know what this means.
Others, do, but don't beleive it.

[Naomi4Christ]

Just to clarify my point, Peacelover, I am assuming that when you refer to saints, you are referring to dead people. I don't pray to, or ask for intercessions from the dead.

However, when I think of saints, I think of my fellow Christians, and of course I would ask them to pray for something specific in my life. I would ask them face to face, and do a bit of an exchange - I will pray for them and they will pray for me.

[gtsecc]

Just to clarify my point, Peacelover, I am assuming that when you refer to saints, you are referring to dead people. I don't pray to, or ask for intercessions from the dead.
Herein lies the difference. They are not dead, but alive in Christ.
Are you or are you not in communion with those who have gone before you?
It seems to me this stand of not praying with the saint cannot be tied to Christianity except as reactionary theology. It is well meaning – Clearly there are many examples of folks who have gone round the bin with devotions to Saints, but the correction is don’t go round the bin, not don’t ask the Saints to pray for you.

[gtsecc]

We can quibble endlessly about what it means to "pray" to Saints or to ask for their prayers.

In the end, the important understanding, and I think this is an essential one for Christianity, is that we are with the saints who have gone before us in Christ. Resurrection of the Dead and the communion of saints is utterly uncomprehendible without some sort of understanding that the saints are truly present with us, especially when we pray and during communion. We hear people say it doesn’t hurt to not pray to saints – maybe so. But, it does hurt our understanding of Christ if we don’t somehow see that we are connected through Christ to all the folks who have come before us. It affects everything, Christology, communion, self understanding, resurrection, soteriology, etc….

[gtsecc]

If we do not submit to the classical teachings of the faith, we are doomed to make up our own. When we do this, be we ultra liberal or ultra protestant, we tear at the fabric of the communion, we hurt our selves, and we hurt the church.

[Aymn27]

While I believe the saints can pray for us..I don't see them as being able to get some sort of "special" blessing (ie - the novenas, etc). In reference to believing in the communion of saints - that has absolutely nothing in and of itself to do with saints interceding on our behalf. Biblically, there is little mention of it...so it's definitely not something I would say is required of a Christian to believe and practice - though I don't think those who do practice it are outside Christianity either - unless they get a little fruity with the devotions, etc....

[PaladinGirl]

Sorry Peace02. I voted before I read your OP about leaving us Old Catholics out. Disregard my "yes" vote.
That's no big deal. Thanks for voting anyway. :)

[TomUK]

I absolutely do!

[Torah613]

I ask many saints to pray for me, both the living and the dead. According to the scriptures, all who are alive in Christ are saints. And if you are alive in Christ, than the grave is merely illusory.

Jo

[Paladin_Mark]

The result of this poll disturbs me frankly .

I didn't realise that many Anglicans asked "saints" to pray for them. I think asking a "saint" to pray for you is totally unbliblical and wrong. (unless it is in the context of all believers being saints and asking a living person to pray for you) . When ever did any one in scripture ask a dead person to pray for them ?, Jesus certainly did not.

Doesn't that also mean you are actually praying to a saint ?? If you are asking them to pray for you . As when you pray to God , you are simply talking to Him.

ugh :sigh:

I believe that it is very wrong ,

Mark

[JasonV]

The result of this poll disturbs me frankly .

I didn't realise that many Anglicans asked "saints" to pray for them. I think asking a "saint" to pray for you is totally unbliblical and wrong. (unless it is in the context of all believers being saints and asking a living person to pray for you) . When ever did any one in scripture ask a dead person to pray for them ?, Jesus certainly did not.

Doesn't that also mean you are actually praying to a saint ?? If you are asking them to pray for you . As when you pray to God , you are simply talking to Him.

ugh :sigh:

I believe that it is very wrong ,

Mark

Hey Mark,

I can understand where you are coming from, but I think you don't fully understand the theology behind this. Don't worry, someone with more time will explain (or I will later).

[No Swansong]

Nope it is absolutely not necessary. With Christs' sacrifice the need for any other mediator became no longer necessary for either or salvation or grace.

[Naomi4Christ]

The result of this poll disturbs me frankly .

I didn't realise that many Anglicans asked "saints" to pray for them. I think asking a "saint" to pray for you is totally unbliblical and wrong. (unless it is in the context of all believers being saints and asking a living person to pray for you) . When ever did any one in scripture ask a dead person to pray for them ?, Jesus certainly did not.

Doesn't that also mean you are actually praying to a saint ?? If you are asking them to pray for you . As when you pray to God , you are simply talking to Him.

ugh :sigh:

I believe that it is very wrong ,

Mark
I agree with much of what you say.

[Adammi]

I didn't vote because I'm only a wannabe, but yes I do ask the saints to pray for us. Not a lot, but yes some. St. Nathaniel the Apostle especially along with Blessed Virgin Mary, John Paul II, Mother Teresa, and whoevers saint day it is in the BCP.

[artrx]

I never have but I see nothing "wrong" with it. I love the lives, the examples and written writings of the saints, but have never felt the need to pray to one. Maybe it's my conservative evangelical roots but I just talk with and listen to Yahweh in many different ways and forms. Sometimes Yahweh may speak in the writings or life of a saint.

[Aymn27]

I never have but I see nothing "wrong" with it. I love the lives, the examples and written writings of the saints, but have never felt the need to pray to one. Maybe it's my conservative evangelical roots but I just talk with and listen to Yahweh in many different ways and forms. Sometimes Yahweh may speak in the writings or life of a saint.
I'm with ya...I was raised RC and my family always did novenas, etc...as I got more knowledgable about Scripture, etc - I just sorta think it's unneccessary. I think they ARE already praying for us that "cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews - sorta like fans at a football game...but as far as having one special devotion and asking for special favors...I don't think its of any use...

[Tomoz]

I don't - I pray to the Father, and it is Christ who intercedes for me.
I do pray for and with the saints who have not yet gone to be with Christ, however.

The thing I don't understand about intercession of the saints - perhaps someone can explain this to me - is that it carries the implication that, if we can communicate with those departed saints in heaven, then they are omnipresent.

[karen freeinchristman]

I don't - I pray to the Father, and it is Christ who intercedes for me.
I do pray for and with the saints who have not yet gone to be with Christ, however.

The thing I don't understand about intercession of the saints - perhaps someone can explain this to me - is that it carries the implication that, if we can communicate with those departed saints in heaven, then they are omnipresent.
Yeah, I agree with your post, Tom.
I also wonder why those saints who are already in heaven would need to pray - they are already in the presence of God. I don't believe that the saints in heaven are in some sort of special position that they hear our prayers and convey them to God. We pray to God, through Christ, in the Spirit.

[karen freeinchristman]

Unfortunately, Peace Lover, this poll is slightly flawed as well, because I would vote yes if the word 'saints' meant any of Christ's followers (because I do ask for prayers from saints who are in the world). But I won't vote yes if you meant only those saints who are already in heaven.

[gtsecc]

The Bible is NOT the source of the faith or the teachings.
The Church is.
Once again, this boils down to a question of authority.
If you want to make up a new faith baised on the Bible only, go be Jehovas Witness, or Baptist or something.

[gtsecc]

Do you think the Gregorian Canon, which is Anglican and asks for the intercetions of the Saints, was just made up by people that hate Jesus and didn't read the Bible? Remember, most of the sentiment against it is neither "biblical" nor Christian, it is merely missplaced hatred of Catholics, and well intentioned, but wrong "corrective" theology.

[gtsecc]

Why do I continue to have hope for the Anglican communion when it is clearly being destroyed by ultra protestants and ultra liberals?

[TomUK]

Why do I continue to have hope for the Anglican communion when it is clearly being destroyed by ultra protestants and ultra liberals?

Because you're kind like that. :)

[Simon_Templar]

I voted yes, but I have only done so once or twice.

Coming from the non-denom protestant background I was raised to believe that praying to anyone other than God was idolatry.

However, given the correct understanding of the communion of the saints (which is that all saints current and past are alive and connected in Christ) the idea of asking a saint of the past to pray for you is allowable. If you combine that with the scripture which says the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.. it gives a feasible reason to ask the saints to pray for us.

On those grounds I have once or twice asked a saint to intercede for me. More often I have used a saint as an example, asking God to inspire me with the virtue that a particular saint exemplified.

because of my protestant roots I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of praying to saints, or speaking to saints if you prefer.

However, I do recognize that in the biblical conception of the communion of the saints, there is little or no difference between talking to St. Patrick, or me talking to you guys here.

The biblical injunction against speaking to the dead does not qualify in this case becaues the saints are not dead. Moreover, according to hebrews 11 & 12 The saints of the past are connected to us, and we are residents of the same city in which they reside so we are connected to them.

Also, although some catholics and orthodox appear to have misunderstood the concept and do appear to veiw the saints in some kind of mediative role. Strictly speaking asking a saint to pray for you is not done in the sense of mediation, but in the sense of intercession which is the same thing that we do for each other here.

[JasonV]

Why do I continue to have hope for the Anglican communion when it is clearly being destroyed by ultra protestants and ultra liberals?

Im an "ultra liberal" and I belive in communion of the saints.

:)

[JasonV]

I voted yes, but I have only done so once or twice.

Coming from the non-denom protestant background I was raised to believe that praying to anyone other than God was idolatry.

However, given the correct understanding of the communion of the saints (which is that all saints current and past are alive and connected in Christ) the idea of asking a saint of the past to pray for you is allowable. If you combine that with the scripture which says the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.. it gives a feasible reason to ask the saints to pray for us.

On those grounds I have once or twice asked a saint to intercede for me. More often I have used a saint as an example, asking God to inspire me with the virtue that a particular saint exemplified.

because of my protestant roots I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of praying to saints, or speaking to saints if you prefer.

However, I do recognize that in the biblical conception of the communion of the saints, there is little or no difference between talking to St. Patrick, or me talking to you guys here.

The biblical injunction against speaking to the dead does not qualify in this case becaues the saints are not dead. Moreover, according to hebrews 11 & 12 The saints of the past are connected to us, and we are residents of the same city in which they reside so we are connected to them.

Also, although some catholics and orthodox appear to have misunderstood the concept and do appear to veiw the saints in some kind of mediative role. Strictly speaking asking a saint to pray for you is not done in the sense of mediation, but in the sense of intercession which is the same thing that we do for each other here.

Very well stated Simon.

[Paladin_Mark]

The Bible is NOT the source of the faith or the teachings.
The Church is.
Once again, this boils down to a question of authority.
If you want to make up a new faith baised on the Bible only, go be Jehovas Witness, or Baptist or something.


Matthew 4:4

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"


Every word that comes from God . Not every word that comes from the church.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


All scripture is God-breathed - from the mouth of God.



Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

John 10:5

If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

I think its clear to see Jesus' view of scripture.

Mark

[Paladin_Mark]

* Saints are not omnipresent.

* I also very much doubt that a saint when they die gains the ability to have an infinte number of focus's, in which they can have complete concentration on loads of people at the same time . Unlike God who is perfetly capable of that.

Which then leaves the problem, that potentially it wouldn't take a lot of people to totally monopoly a saints time :P . Lol a few hundred asking St Peter to pray for them .

They (dead saints) are not able like God is .

[karen freeinchristman]

Remember, most of the sentiment against it is neither "biblical" nor Christian, it is merely missplaced hatred of Catholics, and well intentioned, but wrong "corrective" theology.
It has nothing to do with 'hatred of Catholics'. Get over it, would you?

[gtsecc]

It has nothing to do with 'hatred of Catholics'. Get over it, would you?
See my PM.

Get over it?
How about open your eyes?
Protestant and Catholic strife exists, and among other things, it affects theology.

[gtsecc]

Matthew 4:4

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"


Every word that comes from God . Not every word that comes from the church.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


All scripture is God-breathed - from the mouth of God.



Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

John 10:5

If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

I think its clear to see Jesus' view of scripture.

Mark
1 Timothy 3:15 (King James Version)

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

[gtsecc]

John10:5 is talking about the Old Testament.

[karen freeinchristman]

See my PM.

Get over it?
How about open your eyes?
Protestant and Catholic strife exists, and among other things, it affects theology.

What I meant was, MY theological viewpoint regarding asking the saints to pray for you doesn't have anything to do with 'hatred of Catholics'. I think you seem to presume this is the case whenever someone holds a view that has come up at some time in history as a reaction against Catholics. This is true, that Protestant and Catholic strife exists and has existed in the past. But this isn't always the foundation for people's views. I think it is a misleading presumption for you to respond so often as if it were.

[gtsecc]

What I meant was, MY theological viewpoint regarding asking the saints to pray for you doesn't have anything to do with 'hatred of Catholics'. I think you seem to presume this is the case whenever someone holds a view that has come up at some time in history as a reaction against Catholics. This is true, that Protestant and Catholic strife exists and has existed in the past. But this isn't always the foundation for people's views. I think it is a misleading presumption for you to respond so often as if it were.
Ah, not of your views directly, but then what about the person who taugh you, or who taught them? You see it started somewhere - either hate or ignorance of church teaching. These people are well meaning, but look what the reformation has done to the church. If we were one we could evangelize more effectively.

[karen freeinchristman]

Ah, not of your views directly, but then what about the person who taugh you, or who taught them? You see it started somewhere - either hate or ignorance of church teaching. These people are well meaning, but look what the reformation has done to the church. If we were one we could evangelize more effectively.
You know, I don't think my view has come from anyone teaching me anything. See, this is your presumption. OK, I admit it could have been something sub-consciously planted in my brain from my half-hearted Presbyterian upbringing, but I doubt it.

[Aymn27]

Ah, not of your views directly, but then what about the person who taugh you, or who taught them? You see it started somewhere - either hate or ignorance of church teaching. These people are well meaning, but look what the reformation has done to the church. If we were one we could evangelize more effectively.
to be honest glen, the RCC is horrible at evangelization here in the US...the only reason their numbers are growing is b/c of the influx of illegal aliens. Most Catholics I encounter are about as excited about Christ as they are about a physical - it's just something you "do" and not how you live life - and those that are "on fire" are generally church puppets who think a heresy is lurking in every book/thought that isn't processed through the Vatican..

[Aymn27]

1 Timothy 3:15 (King James Version)

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
even the church is subject to Scripture....when the "church" places itself above Scripture (which is the revelation of God to the apostles) it sets on a path of corruption and destruction ---

while you like to look at what the reformation has done to the church - pray tell, what has historic "orthodox" catholicism done to it?

[gtsecc]

even the church is subject to Scripture....when the "church" places itself above Scripture (which is the revelation of God to the apostles) it sets on a path of corruption and destruction ---

while you like to look at what the reformation has done to the church - pray tell, what has historic "orthodox" catholicism done to it?
The Scriptures were birthed by the Church.
You are trying to figure out some sort of system where the Scriptures birth the church. Now, you are a smart guy - go do some reading. Please. The stuff people believe makes me think most Christians are fools, and just try to blindly willthemselves into some sort of non-sensicle system that won't stand up to criticle thinking.

[karen freeinchristman]

The Scriptures were birthed by the Church.
You are trying to figure out some sort of system where the Scriptures birth the church. Now, you are a smart guy - go do some reading. Please. The stuff people believe makes me think most Christians are fools, and just try to blindly willthemselves into some sort of non-sensicle system that won't stand up to criticle thinking.
I think you are in dangerous waters stating that the Church 'birthed' the Scriptures. Sure, they picked and chose, they canonized. But the Holy Spirit 'birthed' the Scriptures.

[Torah613]

Ah, not of your views directly, but then what about the person who taugh you, or who taught them? You see it started somewhere - either hate or ignorance of church teaching. These people are well meaning, but look what the reformation has done to the church. If we were one we could evangelize more effectively.
Gtsec, the reformation had nothing to do with the disunity of hte church. The church was no longer one long before that. In fact there are those who would say that Rome herself was the first protestant church.

As Christians we are united in the one we worship. As Anglicans we are united by a common focus of our worship and a common prayer book--not uniform theology, or all of us having blond hair and blue eyes.

Jo

[Torah613]

I think you are in dangerous waters stating that the Church 'birthed' the Scriptures. Sure, they picked and chose, they canonized. But the Holy Spirit 'birthed' the Scriptures.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

We are basically talking here about the same struggle as between the written Torah and the Oral Torah. Rabbi's for millenia have argued over that one and still haven't come up with an answer.

When it comes to this question it is neither tradition (the Church), or scripture or even tradition and scripture together. We must use the scriptures as a measuring stick for both ourselves and our church.

To say that a group of men birthed the scriptures on their own is, forgive teh pun in an Anglican forum, heresy. It is creating a God out of tradition. I saw it in Eastern Orthodoxy, and I see it now spreading like a cancer through the Church Catholic.

Happy pesach/easter to all.

Jo

[Simon_Templar]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

We are basically talking here about the same struggle as between the written Torah and the Oral Torah. Rabbi's for millenia have argued over that one and still haven't come up with an answer.

When it comes to this question it is neither tradition (the Church), or scripture or even tradition and scripture together. We must use the scriptures as a measuring stick for both ourselves and our church.

To say that a group of men birthed the scriptures on their own is, forgive teh pun in an Anglican forum, heresy. It is creating a God out of tradition. I saw it in Eastern Orthodoxy, and I see it now spreading like a cancer through the Church Catholic.

Happy pesach/easter to all.

Jo
Agreed.

God created and delivered both the scriptures and the church. The scriptures did not create the church, neither did the church create the scriptures.

The issue here is that groups of men are seeking a trump card for their point of view.

The scriptures say "thy word is truth" but they also say "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth".

What is needed here is some balance. Those who refer to tradition need to remember that the Fathers of the tradition they refer to based almost everything they said on scripture. Those who refer to scripture need to remember that the Fathers they disregard, or even disdain knew the scriptures inside and out, and they based their beliefs, and virtually everything they said on scripture. A few of them were even taught by the apostles themselves who wrote scripture. Thus if their understanding of scripture is significantly different than our own, maybe we need to examine some things, and pray about some things.

[Aymn27]

Agreed.

God created and delivered both the scriptures and the church. The scriptures did not create the church, neither did the church create the scriptures.

The issue here is that groups of men are seeking a trump card for their point of view.

The scriptures say "thy word is truth" but they also say "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth".

What is needed here is some balance. Those who refer to tradition need to remember that the Fathers of the tradition they refer to based almost everything they said on scripture. Those who refer to scripture need to remember that the Fathers they disregard, or even disdain knew the scriptures inside and out, and they based their beliefs, and virtually everything they said on scripture. A few of them were even taught by the apostles themselves who wrote scripture. Thus if their understanding of scripture is significantly different than our own, maybe we need to examine some things, and pray about some things.
I think you cover in this post what I was going to respond..the reason that Scripture is to be elevated above Tradition is because it is written and can be tested against...tradition does not have the same verifiability - what may be elevated in one place is not in another and the two places may disagree with each other to the point of anathema...so who is right? we can only know by which of the two is following Scripture faithfully...

[Torah613]

I agree with both of you.

Jo

[No Swansong]

I think you are in dangerous waters stating that the Church 'birthed' the Scriptures. Sure, they picked and chose, they canonized. But the Holy Spirit 'birthed' the Scriptures.
Precisely.

[Tomoz]

I think you cover in this post what I was going to respond..the reason that Scripture is to be elevated above Tradition is because it is written and can be tested against...tradition does not have the same verifiability - what may be elevated in one place is not in another and the two places may disagree with each other to the point of anathema...so who is right? we can only know by which of the two is following Scripture faithfully...

Yes, and also, Jesus himself said to make sure we don't "make void the word of God through (our) tradition that (we) have handed on" (Mark 7:13).

Tradition is of great importance - but it is trumped by scripture. When it comes to intercession of the (departed) saints, I can't line that up with scripture. It doesn't matter how many people have done that for how long - if I can't have peace about it scripturally, I won't do it.

[AngCath]

Do you ask the Saints to pray for you?

Absolutely!
Praying the rosary (dominican) is part of my daily routine.

[Torah613]

I agree with AngCath's lovely change of subject.

this thread was created by someone who was curious about our tradition, and the various aspects of it. Perhaps discussions of the different legs of the stool should be held in another thread.

For the record, I do ask the Saints to pray for me. That is all the saints, as for all those who are alive in Christ the grave is a mere illusion. Christ has conquered death. Though to be honest, I tend to ask living saints to pray for me and use the ones who have gone on to their eternal reward as an example for forming my life.

Jo

[No Swansong]

Let me ask those who do ask the saints to pray for them. This is sincerly asked. Do you believe the saints to be omnipresent?

[TomUK]

I think my best response are these verses from scripture.

Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance. Or what woman having ten silver coins, if she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbours, saying, “Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.” Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.


If the Church in heaven rejoices in one sinner repenting then i think we must conclude that they know about it. I've no idea whether that means they're omnipresent but they certainly know what's going on.

[AngCath]

Do you believe the saints to be omnipresent?
No
but they certainly know what's going on.
yes

The Communion of Saints/Mystical Body/Body of Christ is a mystery of the faith that we all profess yet can not mechanically explain. The same is true of prayer. We pray assured that God 'hears' them and acts, but we don't know the mechanics of it. In short, it's a mystery.

[cavell]

Because my other poll had a flaw in it, I decided to create a different poll with different wording. So please vote in my poll and please only Anglicans/Episcopalians. I do not mean to exclude my brethren in the Old Catholic Church. I am just trying to get an idea of how prevalent this is among Anglicans and Episcopalians.
Are we asking about 'saints alive' or saints dead'?

I would ask my fellow believers to pray for me, and have done many times. But regarding saints that are dead......well they are dead. Christianity and the bible do not give advice on praying to the dead.....saints or not.

We pray to Jesus ' who ever liveth to make intercession for us' (bible)

We can only ask the living for prayer........as I see it.

[No Swansong]

I think my best response are these verses from scripture.

Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance. Or what woman having ten silver coins, if she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbours, saying, “Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.” Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.


If the Church in heaven rejoices in one sinner repenting then i think we must conclude that they know about it. I've no idea whether that means they're omnipresent but they certainly know what's going on.
Well Tom it mentions God, it mentions the Angels, it doesn't mention the saints or the Church as far as I can tell.

[Simon_Templar]

Let me ask those who do ask the saints to pray for them. This is sincerly asked. Do you believe the saints to be omnipresent?
No I don't believe the saints are omnipresent. This is an issue I thought about some. The conclusion I came to (and I don't imagine it is conclusive, or the only one) is that when Hebrews 11 talks about us being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, it doesn't only mean they are witnesses to us.. but it also means that they are witnessing us, because they are actively waiting for us. It says they have not received the fullness of the promise, they have not received the complete prize because they must wait for us (ie the living saints) to run our race. I believe, therefore that they are actively cheering us on.

Something of the mystery of this I believe is explained a little further on in Hebrews 12 where it tells us that in christ we have come to the heavenly city, to the company of angels.. etc, and "to the company of of the souls of righteous men made perfect". This tells me that we and they are somehow united in Christ. I can't begin to imagine the how and why really, but I believe it is literally true, we are in their company through Christ.

[Tomoz]

This is interesting guys, keep going!!!

[Torah613]

Well Tom it mentions God, it mentions the Angels, it doesn't mention the saints or the Church as far as I can tell.
So are Angels omnipresent?

If so is it ok to pray to angels (which is actually an ancient Jewish tradition predating the arrival of Yeshua)?

If so then it is certainly apropriate to pray to the Saints. The thing about prayer is that its not so much about changing God's mind, but changing our hearts so that we can accept the crosses of this life and realize the blessings. Have you ever gone through a situation such as a death of a loved one, and prayed that God would bring them back and take you in their place? Well if its like me when my beloved Bubbie died, an overwhelming sense of peace came over me and I was able to accept it. But she was still dead. Actually I wasn't praying to God at all but rather to the foremother of Yeshua, Ruth (her namesake).

As Christians to say that the saints in Heaven can't hear us is logically the same as saying 1. Heaven does not exist, or 2. The grave is still victorious over Christ, or 3. That faith has no meaning.

Jo

[Torah613]

What we can all agree on though, is that it is a good and righteous thing to ask our brothers and sisters in Yeshua who are among the living to pray for us and to pray for others.

We can also agree that the saints provide a wonderful example to us on how to live, how to pray, how to witness, and how to live out the totallity of our faith. They are gleaming jewels while we are but diamonds in the ruff.

As Anglicans it is our tradition to look at what we agree on and who we agree on (Yeshua/Jesus) and work out the rest through scripture, tradition and reason (and largely for ourselves).

While I ask the saints to pray for me, and for others as well, I would not condone it in a corporate worship setting. However Hagiography (the emulation of the saints) is good to have in the services to remind us of how we should grow. In fact its part of the canon in the American prayerbook at least. ("Oh God may we become like N and all the saints/Oh God may we grow in love like N and all the saints").

Jo

[No Swansong]

So are Angels omnipresent?

If so is it ok to pray to angels (which is actually an ancient Jewish tradition predating the arrival of Yeshua)?

If so then it is certainly apropriate to pray to the Saints. The thing about prayer is that its not so much about changing God's mind, but changing our hearts so that we can accept the crosses of this life and realize the blessings. Have you ever gone through a situation such as a death of a loved one, and prayed that God would bring them back and take you in their place? Well if its like me when my beloved Bubbie died, an overwhelming sense of peace came over me and I was able to accept it. But she was still dead. Actually I wasn't praying to God at all but rather to the foremother of Yeshua, Ruth (her namesake).

As Christians to say that the saints in Heaven can't hear us is logically the same as saying 1. Heaven does not exist, or 2. The grave is still victorious over Christ, or 3. That faith has no meaning.

Jo
Or simply that there is a separation that cannot be overcome by mortals. And no I do not believe that Angels are omnipresent nor do I believe it is appropriate to pray to them.

Besides I don't need to I have the perfect intercessor, not only to affect salvation but also grace.

[No Swansong]

What we can all agree on though, is that it is a good and righteous thing to ask our brothers and sisters in Yeshua who are among the living to pray for us and to pray for others.

We can also agree that the saints provide a wonderful example to us on how to live, how to pray, how to witness, and how to live out the totallity of our faith. They are gleaming jewels while we are but diamonds in the ruff.

As Anglicans it is our tradition to look at what we agree on and who we agree on (Yeshua/Jesus) and work out the rest through scripture, tradition and reason (and largely for ourselves).

While I ask the saints to pray for me, and for others as well, I would not condone it in a corporate worship setting. However Hagiography (the emulation of the saints) is good to have in the services to remind us of how we should grow. In fact its part of the canon in the American prayerbook at least. ("Oh God may we become like N and all the saints/Oh God may we grow in love like N and all the saints").

Jo
It is always important to keep those things we agree on at the forefront of our thoughts. Thank you for reminding us (well me) of this.

[Cygnus]

No, I don't.

[Iosias]

Always, granted they always ask me at housegroup what my prayer requests are...;)

[~Karin~]

Because my other poll had a flaw in it, I decided to create a different poll with different wording. So please vote in my poll and please only Anglicans/Episcopalians. I do not mean to exclude my brethren in the Old Catholic Church. I am just trying to get an idea of how prevalent this is among Anglicans and Episcopalians.
sorry...my bad! I voted before I saw you wanted Anglican's only!