Yo

[MrJim]

Note the icon change:eek: . Now ya have to put up with me officially;)

While I've been sportin' the anabaptist icon since the schism I've not attended an anabaptist church since 1995. Since then I was at an Evangelical Free for about 4 years, a Reformed Baptist for about 4 years, and now an American Baptist for about 3 years. It was suggested by one wiser than I that I should be over here instead of the anabaptist forum so here I am.

[Taylor43]

welcome and I hope you enjoy your time in this forum

[UBERROGO]

so are you changing ot Eastern Orthodox or something?

[arunma]

All right, Menno's back! Don't worry buddy, we kept your seat warm. And you can rest easy, because it's as far from us Calvinists as one can get. ;)

[Sword-In-Hand]

Good to have you back. Just don't bring any of that country music with ya.;) Remember: C is for Country and Country is for Crap.

[MrJim]

Good to have you back. Just don't bring any of that country music with ya.;) Remember: C is for Country and Country is for Crap.

...I'm looking for my banjo...:P

[MrJim]

All right, Menno's back! Don't worry buddy, we kept your seat warm. And you can rest easy, because it's as far from us Calvinists as one can get. ;)

...oh I see it, over by the outhouse^_^

[MrJim]

so are you changing ot Eastern Orthodox or something?

I think I very well may be headed in that direction eventually...since Lutherans are a liturgical/sacramental group have you ever checked them out.

I read where the reformers were protesting against the changes that seperate the RC and the EO--indulgences, papacy, purgatory sorts of things...maybe Lutherans just aren't that far away?

[JimfromOhio]

I am still an Anabaptist and Baptist in heart. So, I am sure you are too. :)

[Matthan]

...oh I see it, over by the outhouse^_^
Ricky Scaggs and Kentucky Thunder would be very pleased.... Oh, did I fail to mention Jim and jesse, Bob and Sonny, Mac Wiseman, Mr. Monroe, and a whole host of other wonderful and talented people?

Matthan

[Matthan]

I think I very well may be headed in that direction eventually...since Lutherans are a liturgical/sacramental group have you ever checked them out.

I read where the reformers were protesting against the changes that seperate the RC and the EO--indulgences, papacy, purgatory sorts of things...maybe Lutherans just aren't that far away?
I believe the EO does follow "real presence", but you believe what you will....

[MrJim]

I believe the EO does follow "real presence", but you believe what you will....

...I kinda believe in real presence, though the how and why is a mystery--I figure if a giant like Athanasius believed it there may be something to it...

[arunma]

It turns out that among the Reformers there was quite a diversity of opinion. Like the EO, Martin Luther believed in it. And then there were people like Zwingli, who took the position that it is solely a memorial meal. I think what is most noteworthy here, however, is that the real presence and transubstantiation are not the same doctrine. Those who believe in the real presence do not necessarily believe that the communion elements are literal flesh and blood.

[UBERROGO]

I think I very well may be headed in that direction eventually...since Lutherans are a liturgical/sacramental group have you ever checked them out.

I read where the reformers were protesting against the changes that seperate the RC and the EO--indulgences, papacy, purgatory sorts of things...maybe Lutherans just aren't that far away?


Yeah I have checked them out. I'll send you a pm about it so as not to anger the resident baptists.

[Sword-In-Hand]

...I'm looking for my banjo...:P


You get that there banjer, I'll find my mandolin, get Bobby to fire on that git-fiddle, put George on the slam sticks, and we'll have us a good o'l time. Yeeee Haaaw! "If heaven ain't alot like Dixie...":sick:

[BBAS 64]

Note the icon change:eek: . Now ya have to put up with me officially;)

While I've been sportin' the anabaptist icon since the schism I've not attended an anabaptist church since 1995. Since then I was at an Evangelical Free for about 4 years, a Reformed Baptist for about 4 years, and now an American Baptist for about 3 years. It was suggested by one wiser than I that I should be over here instead of the anabaptist forum so here I am.

Good Day, Menno

:clap: :clap:

Welcome Brother!

In Him,

Bill

[MrJim]

Good Day, Menno

:clap: :clap:

Welcome Brother!

In Him,

Bill

:wave: Hey Bill,

Sword-in-Hand has a great plan, and I hear you play the hammered dulcimer...:D

"...send me to hell or New York City, be about the same to me";)

[Sword-In-Hand]

:wave: Hey Bill,

Sword-in-Hand has a great plan, and I hear you play the hammered dulcimer...:D

"...send me to hell or New York City, be about the same to me";)

Oh my goodness! Who told you that! That was supposed to be G-14 classified! Now my rep is ruined.:doh:

"If Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii was a preacher. I'd tell you what I'd Doooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

[MrJim]

:thumbsup:
I got my username changed in time for Easter...that ought to confuse things a bit;)

[BigNorsk]

I think I very well may be headed in that direction eventually...since Lutherans are a liturgical/sacramental group have you ever checked them out.

I read where the reformers were protesting against the changes that seperate the RC and the EO--indulgences, papacy, purgatory sorts of things...maybe Lutherans just aren't that far away?

The greatest division seems like the chasm between Lazarus and the rich man. It is the article of justification. In order to go RC or EO you have to give that up and go to work in order to be justified. We are directed in Hebrews 4 to be diligent to enter God's rest, not to turn with a spark from him to our works in order to earn salvation.

That's really the big barrier, to give up that we are justifed by God's grace alone through faith alone on the merits of Christ alone.

Marv

[MrJim]

I couldn't find a passage that said "grace alone"
Interestingly I found a passage that had the words "faith" and "alone" in them:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

...maybe more to things than meet the eye....

[JimfromOhio]

Paul discusses the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The work of Christ was so complete that the grace of God more than exceeds the worst of sin. People are confused with God's grace. People thinks grace is based on efforts while Grace actually is the opposite. 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But God said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Someone may try to give someone "credit" for getting saved when they think they have done it from the works of faith. People are really confused the balance between the works and faith.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

[MrJim]

Paul discusses the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The work of Christ was so complete that the grace of God more than exceeds the worst of sin. People are confused with God's grace. People thinks grace is based on efforts while Grace actually is the opposite. 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But God said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Someone may try to give someone "credit" for getting saved when they think they have done it from the works of faith. People are really confused the balance between the works and faith.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Yup, and still:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[JimfromOhio]

Yup, and still:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Without grace, your works is dead. Christian faith is inward, not outward. It is of the spirit and not of the flesh. The kingdom of God is within you, Christ dwells in your heart, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith. The Holy Spirit within us is our works. Corrie Ten Boom said it perfectly (in my opinion), Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you. God has given us the grace to sanctify us. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace.

[MrJim]

Without grace, your works is dead. Christian faith is inward, not outward. It is of the spirit and not of the flesh. The kingdom of God is within you, Christ dwells in your heart, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith. The Holy Spirit within us is our works. Corrie Ten Boom said it perfectly (in my opinion), God has given us the grace to sanctify us. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace.

Yup and

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

...text proofing is such a silly game, isn't it:D

[JimfromOhio]

Yup and

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

...text proofing is such a silly game, isn't it:D

"not by faith only" .... didn't say grace. :wave: Anyone can have faith however no one can have faith without grace.

[JimfromOhio]

What is the source of Grace that gives us faith which produces works within us?

[MrJim]

James is an interesting book-I know Luther really liked it ;)

Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522)

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.
In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.
In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15, "You shall bear witness to me." All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.
But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and to its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a "law of liberty," though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin. 3

Sola Scriptura indeed^_^

[MrJim]

What is the source of Grace that gives us faith which produces works within us?

Grace is from God...

[JimfromOhio]

Grace is from God...


So, without grace, what happens?

[JimfromOhio]

James is an interesting book-I know Luther really liked it ;)

Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522)

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.
In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.
In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15, "You shall bear witness to me." All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.
But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and to its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a "law of liberty," though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin. 3

Sola Scriptura indeed^_^

Did you notice Luther's objective on the topic of works? :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

By the way, I learned so much about GRACE from an Anabapist denomination.

[MrJim]

Did you notice Luther's objective on the topic of works? :wave:

Frankly Luther is of absolutely no value to me-to him I am a heretic -he has declared it, so I use him only as a reference of things gone astray in protestantvillle. Calvin falls into the same category-I am HERETIC by their standards of Christianity--and if lived in their world they would declare me the enemy-a prophet of Satan or somesuch.

But I like pointing this out to baptists that use them in reference-even called out my pastor on a Luther reference Wednesday night.^_^

But wait JimfromOhio-this is a discussion between a bad baptist and a presbyterian:doh: :D what a world.