Predestination - the REAL test...

[DMagoh]

The REAL test to see if predestination it true or not would be if everyone quit witnessing. Just quit trying to win anyone over to Christ. Never mention Jesus to anyone except other Christians in your church.

If predestination is true, then the "chosen" people would be saved over the next 100 years regardless. However, if there were less Christians in the world in 100 years, we'd know predestination is incorrect and that we should have been witnessing all along! Of course the poor souls that we didnt witness to and died and went to hell would not appreciate our experiment.

[JimfromOhio]

The REAL test to see if predestination it true or not would be if everyone quit witnessing. Just quit trying to win anyone over to Christ. Never mention Jesus to anyone except other Christians in your church.

If predestination is true, then the "chosen" people would be saved over the next 100 years regardless. However, if there were less Christians in the world in 100 years, we'd know predestination is incorrect and that we should have been witnessing all along! Of course the poor souls that we didnt witness to and died and went to hell would not appreciate our experiment.

Our experiment?

I posted this in another thread responding to your post:

I posted this earlier in this thread
in cased you missed it or didn't really "read".

God is a sovereign God and we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved.

While I cannot ignore Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 which focuses on Predestination because we cannot selectively choose the verses that pleases us. Also, we cannot choose to twist the scriptures to to avoid the upsetting of knowing God's concept of election.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

Jesus said in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

The Bible clearly teaches that God knows beforehand what everyone will need and He will provide beforehand according to His will. Wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. All God's acts are done in perfect wisdom for His own glory.

Finally, I want to add that Calvinism believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc).

In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all."

So, with an attitude of "If people are already chosen, it doesnt matter whether we "go forth" or not." zPeople are missing the point of God's Sovereign and His plans. We need to understand God's Sovereign of His plan according to His will. God governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Jeremiah 10:23 [ Jeremiah's Prayer ] I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Dr. Luke explains God's providence PERFECTLY........ God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Acts 17:24-29 (NKJV)

[sheina]

Finally, I want to add that Calvinism believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc).
Why don't you know who is "elect" and who isn't? The Bible says we can know our Christian brethren:

The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; (2 John 1:1)

The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen. (2 John 1:13)

John knew that the "elect" lady was saved, for he warned her to beware of an antichrist.

Elect means that God has chosen the Christian to live a glorious future after salvation--not before. Election means God planned man's salvation before the creation (Eph 1:5,11). Election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

Predestination is biblical--it is based on the foreknowledge of God.

[PETE_]

FOREKNOWLEDGE AS EQUIVALENT TO FOREORDINATION:
While, therefore, the foreknowledge of God in the sense of prescience is asserted in the New Testament, this is not the meaning of the term when used to translate the Greek words proginoskein and prognosis. These words which are translated in the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) by the word “foreknowledge,” and once by the word “foreordain” (1 Pet 1:20 the King James Version), mean much more than mere intellectual foresight or prescience. Both the verb and the noun approach the idea of foreordination and are closely connected with that idea in the passages where these words occur. Thus, in Peter’s speeches in Acts the predestination which finds expression in 4:28 is practically identified with the term prognosis in 2:23. Everything which happened to Jesus took place in accordance with “the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,” so that nothing happened except that which God had foreordained. In this verse the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God’s “counsel” or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in 1 Pet 1:20. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb “foreordained” by God before the foundation of the world. The Greek verb proegnosmenou, meaning literally, “foreknown” (as in the Revised Version (British and American)) is translated “foreordained” in the King James Version. It is evidently God’s foreordination of Jesus as Saviour which Peter has in mind. Also in 1 Pet 1:2 those to whom the apostle is writing are characterized as “elect according to the foreknowledge (prognosis) of God,” where the election is based on the “foreknowledge.” By the prognosis or foreknowledge, however, far more is meant than prescience. It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure. If it meant simply prevision of faith or love or any quality in the objects of the election, Peter would not only flatly contradict Paul (Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3, 4; 2 Tim 1:9); but also such a rendering would conflict with the context of this passage, because the objects of election are chosen “unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of .... Christ,” so that their new obedience and relation to Christ are determined by their election by God, which election springs from a “foreknowledge” which therefore cannot mean a mere prescience.
Orr, J., M.A., D.D. 1999. The International standard Bible encyclopedia :

[JimfromOhio]

Why don't you know who is "elect" and who isn't? The Bible says we can know our Christian brethren:

The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; (2 John 1:1)

The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen. (2 John 1:13)

John knew that the "elect" lady was saved, for he warned her to beware of an antichrist.

Elect means that God has chosen the Christian to live a glorious future after salvation--not before. Election means God planned man's salvation before the creation (Eph 1:5,11). Election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

Predestination is biblical--it is based on the foreknowledge of God.

I think you are really confused about the doctrines. Calvinism is a doctrine of how we believe salvation work according to God's sovereign and the work of the Holy Spirit. Calvinism is a doctrine (not actual salvation). Only God through the Holy Spirit that saves the elect. Calvinism is a doctrine. Its a teaching and nothing more than that. "Calvinism" is not God. I used to be an Arminianism but over the years, the more I studied, the more I understand God's plan of Salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit, I tend to agree with Calvinism. I didn't know I was following a Calvinist doctrine until a few years ago and I have been a Christian for over 33 years. I have been studying the books authored by Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, James Montgomery Boice, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur, John Piper and many more.

I enjoy some of Jerry Bridges' books who is a Reformed evangelical Baptist. Former vice president of the Navigators, with whom he has worked since 1955. He now trains staff for the evangelistic organization.

I know who are my brethren in Christ regardless whether they believe in Calvinism or any other doctrines simply by watching their fruits. There are many who are judging based on bickering doctrines than God-centered fruitful lives. Do not have a "tunnel vision" based on brethren's beliefs alone. We need to look at their whole being. Every Christian must decide whether they will us their liberty to decide on their doctrinal beliefs. We are free, but our freedom does not mean we can know for SURE what is right and what is wrong. We just follow the conviction of the Holy Spirit who is our REAL teacher.

Grace is about loving other people that we have the freedom to do so but at the same time, respect how they practice their beliefs. Everyone will have different view based on their "convictions". Nothing holy and genuine will be done in someone's life until their will is surrendered in active obedience to the Holy Spirit. This is between the believer and God. As long as our conscience is clear and our heart is pure before God, don't be concerned with minor doctrine issues.

In Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?

Spiritual matters should be honest and in which we must seek the discernment of the Holy Spirit. We should NOT forget that the Word of God stresses the importance of conviction and concern and repentance when being born from above by the Spirit of God.

[MrJim]

For the OP--I'm one of the bigger anitcalvinist blowhards around, but to do what you suggest would be disobedient to what we are commanded in scripture.

I recall reading "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul (the book that helped convert me to reformed theology-at least the baptist flavor ;) ) and he asked the same thing to his professor Dr. Gerstner. When Dr. Gerstner tossed the question back to his students-hey why bother evangelizing if the elect is already chosen, Sproul piped up "One little thing might be that Jesus commanded us." At that point Dr. Gerstner exploded and said something like "The God of the universe commanded you to go and preach the gospel to the world and you call it a little thing?"

It drives home what I've said elsewhere-that regardless of the arminian/calvinist/whatever the message remains the same: Repent, call upon the name of the Lord, and be cleansed of your sins by the blood of Jesus Christ. I say all are saveable, calvinists say the elect has already been chosen, but we're still calling all men everywhere to repent...maybe that should be good enough...

[JimfromOhio]

Florida Baptist Witness had an article on: Two Baptist seminary presidents discuss aspects of Calvinism (http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/6081.article)

I would read this part of the article (partial quote)
Both Mohler and Patterson said too many people, when debating Calvinism, have a judgmental attitude toward one another. Mohler quipped that some people frame it thusly, “Are you or have you ever been a Calvinist?”

“I would caution my non-Calvinist brethren against the conclusion that the doctrine of Calvin automatically means that a person will not and cannot be evangelistic,” Patterson said. “… One of the commands that the Lord gives is to take the Gospel to the ends of earth. No Calvinist worthy of his stripe would thereby disobey a command of God.”

[DMagoh]

For the OP--I'm one of the bigger anitcalvinist blowhards around, but to do what you suggest would be disobedient to what we are commanded in scripture....

I was saying it in jest, not really proposing it! I could never deliberately NOT witness for an experiment! I could just see standing before God on Judgement Day explaining that one...well you see God, I didnt care souls were going to burn in hell, I thought I would proove something to my brothers down on earth...

Maybe I should have put a smiley face in my post so everyone would know it was in jest?

[MrJim]

I was saying it in jest, not really proposing it! I could never deliberately NOT witness for an experiment! I could just see standing before God on Judgement Day explaining that one...well you see God, I didnt care souls were going to burn in hell, I thought I would proove something to my brothers down on earth...

Maybe I should have put a smiley face in my post so everyone would know it was in jest?


;) :) :) :)

[Erinwilcox]

The REAL test to see if predestination it true or not would be if everyone quit witnessing. Just quit trying to win anyone over to Christ. Never mention Jesus to anyone except other Christians in your church.

If predestination is true, then the "chosen" people would be saved over the next 100 years regardless. However, if there were less Christians in the world in 100 years, we'd know predestination is incorrect and that we should have been witnessing all along! Of course the poor souls that we didnt witness to and died and went to hell would not appreciate our experiment.

That, my friend, is hyper-Calvinism and would be going against the command to bring the gospel to all nations.

[DMagoh]

That, my friend, is hyper-Calvinism and would be going against the command to bring the gospel to all nations.

If Calvinism is good, wouldnt hyper-Calvinism be great?!?:scratch:

[PETE_]

If Calvinism is good, wouldnt hyper-Calvinism be great?!?:scratch:
extending your arm is good, hyper-extending it is not

[JacobHall86]

Ok People, its important that we keep all lighters and flames away from this thread. Strawmen are everywhere. One spark could ignite the entire forum.