If somebody is predestinated, what are they saved from?

[MercyBurst]

I don't see how salvation and predestination can even co-exist.

If somebody is predestinated from the beginning (in the Calvinist sense), they are already elected to go to heaven, so why even bother going through the salvation process?

What are they being saved from? They are already predestinated, so who's kidding who? :sorry:

It's kind of like opening a christmas present to yourself -- wow what a surprise!!!!

[JimfromOhio]

Read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 :)

[MrJim]

Rom 9 is cool, especially:

Rom9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

AMEN


Rom 10 carries on...interesting passage there

Rom10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

which translated into reformed theology actually says

"For the elect shall call upon the Lord and be saved."......because only the elect will be granted that salvation, right?

(I guess all the old testament folks that were saved were predestined also?)

...then on to Romans 11 which warns the Gentiles that they'll be cut off too if they follow the path of unbelief...

Rom11: 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

...but if elect what's the worry, and if unelect how would ya be highminded in faith?

Those are some haunting verses..."...take heed lest he also spare not thee..."

...yeah, I know, I'm just not reading it right...

[Matthan]

I don't see how salvation and predestination can even co-exist.

If somebody is predestinated from the beginning (in the Calvinist sense), they are already elected to go to heaven, so why even bother going through the salvation process?

What are they being saved from? They are already predestinated, so who's kidding who? :sorry:

It's kind of like opening a christmas present to yourself -- wow what a surprise!!!!
Apparently they are not saved from anything in particular. They are just saved. And, of course, the damned are just damned for no particular reason, either.

Hummmm.... I think we have a slight problem here....

[arunma]

I don't see how salvation and predestination can even co-exist.

If somebody is predestinated from the beginning (in the Calvinist sense), they are already elected to go to heaven, so why even bother going through the salvation process?

What are they being saved from? They are already predestinated, so who's kidding who? :sorry:

It's kind of like opening a christmas present to yourself -- wow what a surprise!!!!

We believe that the salvation process is essential to the elect because it is the means by which we are saved. God often uses a means to accomplish his end. For example, he gives us grace, and this is mediated by faith in Jesus Christ. To be elected without being saved would be like receiving grace without having faith in Christ. Just as grace comes through faith, our salvation comes by means of God's election.

As to the question of what we are saved from; we are saved from our own sinful nature, which would lead us to the condemnation of hell apart from faith in Jesus Christ. All people, both the elect and the reprobate, are born into sin, and would perish apart from faith in Jesus.

[JPPT1974]

Read John 3:16-17 as that will
Give you ideas as that is the most
Beloved and memorized verse in the
Bible ever.

[mlqurgw]

One more time; election isn't salvation it is unto salvation. We are not saved because we are elect we are saved because Christ died for us and redeemed us unto God putting away our sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Every one that God chose before the foundation of the world and Christ died for are brought to faith in Christ by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel. The elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. We are saved from the just penalty of our sin by our Surety and Substitute the Lord Jesus Christ. He was made to be sin, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Predestination simply means that God graciously chose to save some of Adam's fallen race in such a way that upholds His righteous character and without damage to His justice. He is by no means obligated to save any and it is beyond wonder that He saves any. We have all rebelled against Him. In Adam as our federal head and on our own. The elect deserve the unmitigated wrath of God against their sin the same as the non-elect. God chose to save some by making Christ to bear their sin and suffer in their place. God can't just overlook sin even though He is a merciful God. The idea that predestination means that the elect are are saved by being predestined is foreign to the Scriptures and to reason. It is a straw man beat to death. It has no basis in truth which is Calvinism.

[MercyBurst]

We believe that the salvation process is essential to the elect because it is the means by which we are saved. God often uses a means to accomplish his end. For example, he gives us grace, and this is mediated by faith in Jesus Christ. To be elected without being saved would be like receiving grace without having faith in Christ. Just as grace comes through faith, our salvation comes by means of God's election.

I guess I just don't see it. Calvanism is religious fatalism, so it needs to be consistent with the fatalist philosophy which says everything is already predetermined before we even act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism




The level of equivalence between these three ideas is open to dispute. The first and second claims (determinism and predestination) obviously differ over the status of free will.; some fatalists deny that fatalism as a fact implies defeatism as an attitude, or put a positive interpretation on the acceptance of one's fate (amor fati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_fati)).
It can also be argued that only the second version of the claim is correct — Determinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism) should not be mistaken for fatalism.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism#_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism#_note-3) Although determinists would accept that the future is, in some sense, set, they accept human actions as factors that will cause the future to take the shape that it will - even though those human actions are themselves determined; if they had been different, the future would also be different.
In other words, determinists think the future is fixed because of causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality), whereas (predestinarian) fatalists think it is fixed in spite of causality. Determinists think that if the past had been different, the future would be different (although for them the idea that anything could have been different is purely hypothetical and not a real possibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possibility)). Fatalists think that even if you could change the present or the past, the future would still be the same. Human actions are for determinists merely a special case of the dependence of the future on the present and past, and have no special properties beyond that.

As to the question of what we are saved from; we are saved from our own sinful nature, which would lead us to the condemnation of hell apart from faith in Jesus Christ. All people, both the elect and the reprobate, are born into sin, and would perish apart from faith in Jesus.

Would have, could have, should have... Who's kidding themselves???

Either free will exists or it doesn't. Calvinism assumes free will doesn't exist, therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to condemn the elect whether they get saved or not. You are being logically inconsistent with the Calvinist premise. You must remain logically consistent, or abandon Calvinism for the logical fallacy that it is.

[MercyBurst]

One more time; election isn't salvation it is unto salvation. We are not saved because we are elect we are saved because Christ died for us and redeemed us unto God putting away our sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


Well that's a nice thing to know, but if a person is "elect" in the Calvinist sense why should they even care? If they are "elect" and never even hear about Christ, then the whole redemption plan is irrelevant. God can redeem someone anytime in this world or in the next to come. It's all up to Him (in the Calvinst sense).

Redemption is a purely meaningless hypothetical for the "elect" because the cosmos was already set in motion from the very beginning -- the predestinated outcome was already predetermined by God. Hence they are already predestinated, and waiting to be "purged", let's see ummm -- how about a purgatory for the elect that deferred their salvation? Could the purging even wait until the judgement seat of Christ. Maybe they could even go to hell, then get purged after that.

God must have the ability to save people in hell or we put a limit on His sovereign power. :doh:

Well I got the simple answer to that -- God can not save a person in hell because they chose to be there of their own free will.

[JuJube]

Well that's a nice thing to know, but if a person is "elect" in the Calvinist sense why should they even care? If they are "elect" and never even hear about Christ, then the whole redemption plan is irrelevant. God can redeem someone anytime in this world or in the next to come. It's all up to Him (in the Calvinst sense).

Redemption is a purely meaningless hypothetical for the "elect" because the cosmos was already set in motion from the very beginning with the predestinated outcome was already predetermined by God. Hence they are already predestinated, and waiting to be "purged", let's see ummm -- how about a purgatory for the elect that deferred their salvation? Could the purging even wait until the judgement seat of Christ. Maybe they could even go to hell, then get purged after that.

God must have the ability to save people in hell or we put a limit on His sovereign power. :doh:

Well I got the simple answer to that -- God can not save a person in hell because they chose to be there of their own free will.
You really bring up some very interesting points. Good job!

[Matthan]

We believe that the salvation process is essential to the elect because it is the means by which we are saved. God often uses a means to accomplish his end. For example, he gives us grace, and this is mediated by faith in Jesus Christ. To be elected without being saved would be like receiving grace without having faith in Christ. Just as grace comes through faith, our salvation comes by means of God's election.

As to the question of what we are saved from; we are saved from our own sinful nature, which would lead us to the condemnation of hell apart from faith in Jesus Christ. All people, both the elect and the reprobate, are born into sin, and would perish apart from faith in Jesus.

Do you understand how silly your post sounds? When you state, "We believe that the salvation process is essential to the elect because it is the means by which we are saved." you are completely undermining your entire argument because your original premise is that you are already saved when you exit your mother's womb! But, you cannot have it both ways. Either there is a "salvation process", or there is God's pre-ordained grace to salvation without any other process involved. It has to be one or the other under your rules, because using a "salvation process" must entail personal choices on the part of the individual. Or, are you saying that God pre-ordains you to make the "right" decisions? That, of course, would be even sillier since it would require the use of your own free will in order to obtain your pre-ordained salvation.

Then you confuse the issue. You state, "For example, he gives us grace, and this is mediated by faith in Jesus Christ." So, does He give you His grace BEFORE you develop your faith in Jesus Christ? If so, then you do not need faith in Jesus Christ because you already have God's grace! But, if He gives you His grace after you have developed your faith in Jesus Christ, then how did you develop your faith in the first place? Was it free will? It certainly could not have been by God's grace for the reason already stated.

And they you compound the confusion by adding, "To be elected without being saved would be like receiving grace without having faith in Christ. Just as grace comes through faith, our salvation comes by means of God's election." If God's grace comes through faith, then where does faith come from? If you are already elected by God for salvation, then why do you need faith at all. But, without faith you are not elected. And, you do not receive grace.

So, in order for you to be pre-ordained or elected to salvation, you must necessarily be born with God's grace already imputed to you. And, if that is the case, then faith in any form simply is not needed because grace is already present.

And then you toss the elephant into the ringer with, "All people, both the elect and the reprobate, are born into sin, and would perish apart from faith in Jesus." If the elect are preordained to salvation, then how can they possibly be born into sin? In order for them to be preordained to salvation, they must be born with God's grace. That has to be an absolute requirement. To say they are born into sin and will somehow obtain God's grace at some distant point in their life is to say they are not preordained in any way. What if they die before reaching that point (or are they preordained to live to at least that point)? What if they blaspheme the Holy Spirit before reaching that point (or are they preordained not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit)? No, if any person is preordained to any end, then he must necessarily have God's grace.

Boy, am I confused.... The truth is, in my humble opinion, that anyone who professes pre-ordination by God denies God and His stated desire to have ALL men come to Him.

But hey, you believe what you want.

Matthan

[Erinwilcox]

If you REALLY want to learn how the Calvinists would explain this, post it in Semper Reformanda--Reformed. You'll get little but confirmation of your own thoughts here.

[Matthan]

If you REALLY want to learn how the Calvinists would explain this, post it in Semper Reformanda--Reformed. You'll get little but confirmation of your own thoughts here.
Erin, I love you as a sister (and arunma as a brother) but I do not need to post anywhere else on this issue. I would much rather remain in my own ignorance on predestination and simply believe God when He tells us He wants all men to come to Him, and to believe Jesus when He promises (PROMISES!!!) that whosoever wants to believe in Him will have eternal life. I am grateful to God that I am included in that particular "whosoever", and even more grateful that God knew I would be included in it before He ever created the world and everything else. Pre-knowledge by God in no way requires or equates to Pre-ordination by God.

So, as I said to arunma, I also say to you. In all Christian love you believe what you want to believe (even if it is a product of man's "wisdom" and ultimately denies God), and I will believe what I want to believe (which will never, ever deny God, because it is exactly what God gave to me and all others in Scripture)

Matthan

[Matthan]

The confusion just keeps on growing....

One more time; election isn't salvation it is unto salvation. We are not saved because we are elect we are saved because Christ died for us and redeemed us unto God putting away our sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Every one that God chose before the foundation of the world and Christ died for are brought to faith in Christ by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel. The elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. We are saved from the just penalty of our sin by our Surety and Substitute the Lord Jesus Christ. He was made to be sin, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Predestination simply means that God graciously chose to save some of Adam's fallen race in such a way that upholds His righteous character and without damage to His justice. He is by no means obligated to save any and it is beyond wonder that He saves any. We have all rebelled against Him. In Adam as our federal head and on our own. The elect deserve the unmitigated wrath of God against their sin the same as the non-elect. God chose to save some by making Christ to bear their sin and suffer in their place. God can't just overlook sin even though He is a merciful God. The idea that predestination means that the elect are are saved by being predestined is foreign to the Scriptures and to reason. It is a straw man beat to death. It has no basis in truth which is Calvinism.

miqurge, you stated, "One more time; election isn't salvation it is unto salvation." You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, but you can't have it both ways. If you are "elect", then you are saved. If you are elect, then that necessarily means you were born with God's grace, at least to some measure. To say that you are elect but that really means nothing until you are elected is just silly.

Here is the real problem with your train of thought on this issue (and all other like-minded persons who would rather cling to a product of man's wisdom, a tradition-of-men if you will, rather than what God clearly stated in Scripture.) You wrote, "Every one that God chose before the foundation of the world and Christ died for are brought to faith in Christ by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel." Certainly God KNEW who would be saved before the foundation of the world. but, did He CHOOSE them for salvation? If you answer yes to that question, then you are also declaring that Christ died on the cross for nothing. If you answer no to that question, then you are admitting that man must somehow find God in the hope of also finding salvation. There is no middle ground here. It must be one or the other of these two possibilities.

Hey, you believe what you want to believe, and I will do the same.

Matthan

[Erinwilcox]

Erin, I love you as a sister (and arunma as a brother) but I do not need to post anywhere else on this issue. I would much rather remain in my own ignorance on predestination and simply believe God when He tells us He wants all men to come to Him, and to believe Jesus when He promises (PROMISES!!!) that whosoever wants to believe in Him will have eternal life. I am grateful to God that I am included in that particular "whosoever", and even more grateful that God knew I would be included in it before He ever created the world and everything else. Pre-knowledge by God in no way requires or equates to Pre-ordination by God.

So, as I said to arunma, I also say to you. In all Christian love you believe what you want to believe (even if it is a product of man's "wisdom" and ultimately denies God), and I will believe what I want to believe (which will never, ever deny God, because it is exactly what God gave to me and all others in Scripture)

Matthan

Firstly, my comment was directed to the OP. I am well aware of your opinions and would not expect you to post a thread in SR concerning the matter.

I also believe that Jesus PROMISES to save all who will call on Him. I would never deny that. The only difference is that I believe that man is SO wicked and SO corrupt that he will ALWAYS choose sin and NEVER call on God. Thus, God, in his infinite mercy and grace, calls some to Himself and draws them so that they will love Him. All are commanded to repent and all are responsible for their own repentance. Jesus promises to save all who will come to Him. . .but who will come? those whom He draws. Nobody who wants to believe on God will be damned because He is not elect. If he wants to believe in God, then he is elect. Since I believe that God is the potter and I am the clay, I believe that God can do whatever He wills with His creation--even if it means choosing some to eternal life and not choosing others. I see no unfairness with God. Whosoever wills to come to God will come to God and be saved.

You say that preknowledge does not equate with foreordination. In your view, God still knows before the world began that millions would be DAMNED and does nothing about it. He sees that some will come to Him and others will not. If He knows this, why does He not do something so that the others will believe? Your view still has an elect people--it's just more man-centered.

If you truly believe that what Arun and I believe denies God as you say, then I in no wise can understand how you can call us your brother and your sister--nobody can deny God and live. You claim that you would rather remain in ignorance than learn about predestination. I pity you. When I first learned about the doctrines of grace, my mindset (as I believe all Christian's mindsets should always be about everything) was--"If it's true Lord, then I want to believe it. Open mine eyes so that I may see what is in Your Word." This does not mean that I accepted it blindly. I studied the matter. In my opinion, it is biblical to study doctrines that we might see whether or not they are true, whether or not God might open our eyes to the truth of His Word.

Finally, I do not believe Calvinism because I want to believe it. I believe it because God wants me to believe it and opened my eyes to it. I do not choose what I want to believe about God's word. If I did, I could perhaps find a way to say that all men are going to heaven. The Holy Spirit works in the hearts of Christians and reveals the truth of God's word to them. The Bible says that the Word is foolishness to those who do not believe. Nobody will every know all that there is about God--He is too wonderful, too deep, too God. However, I do believe that Christians gain further knowledge and wisdom as they continue on the path of righteousness. Having an "I choose what I want to believe about the Bible" and having a closed mind is not the best way to continue learning. "Oh Lord, teach me Your ways, reveal to me Your truths, make me willing to believe and do whatever You say" and a submissive heart that is willing to accept whatever God may dish out is a better learning attitude. Do not get me wrong, I am in no way perfect and I in know way know or claim to know everything there is about God or His Word. My heart can be so proud, stubborn, and cold--but I am praying that God would always make me willing to learn whatever it is that He would teach me.

[MercyBurst]

You say that preknowledge does not equate with foreordination. In your view, God still knows before the world began that millions would be DAMNED and does nothing about it. He sees that some will come to Him and others will not. If He knows this, why does He not do something so that the others will believe?


God did everything He could when Jesus died on the cross, and that's why they (the unsaved) are going to hell -- they chose it for themselves -- they rejected God's love offering -- and they get what they fully deserve. You can not make someone love you. Neither can God. Love is a decision. It involves the will of both parties, not just God. That is why salvation is a mutually dependant decision between God and the believer. God did His part, where He loved us without us loving Him back. Now it is up to the unsaved to accept or reject God's love.


Your view still has an elect people--it's just more man-centered.



Actually I'd say it is more love-centered.

[Erinwilcox]

God did everything He could when Jesus died on the cross, and that's why they (the unsdaved) are going to hell -- they chose it for themselves. You can not make someone love you. Neither can God. Love is a decision. It involves the will of both parties, not just God. That is why salvation is a mutually dependant decision between God and the believer. God did His part, where He loved us without us loving Him back. Now it is up to the unsaved to accept or reject God's love.

Sounds like God isn't really all-powerful after all.

[JimfromOhio]

God did everything He could when Jesus died on the cross, and that's why they are going to hell -- they chose it for themselves.

Actually, their sins were so dark that they could not notice Holy Spirit's conviction to repent and get saved. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

Resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit is explained by Christ in Mark 3:29 "he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

[MercyBurst]

Actually, their sins were so dark that they could not notice Holy Spirit's conviction to repent and get saved. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

Resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit is explained by Christ in Mark 3:29 "he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Correct. Everyone in hell blasphemed the Holy Spirit with one last final, eternal "NO".

[Matthan]

God did everything He could when Jesus died on the cross, and that's why they (the unsaved) are going to hell -- they chose it for themselves -- they rejected God's love offering -- and they get what they fully deserve. You can not make someone love you. Neither can God. Love is a decision. It involves the will of both parties, not just God. That is why salvation is a mutually dependant decision between God and the believer. God did His part, where He loved us without us loving Him back. Now it is up to the unsaved to accept or reject God's love.



Actually I'd say it is more love-centered.
MercyBurst, I do not know who you are and I cannot remember ever reading one of your posts, but I sure would love to give you a great big hug right now. What a great post!!!!!

Matthan

[JimfromOhio]

Correct. Everyone in hell blasphemed the Holy Spirit with one last final, eternal "NO".

Spiritually dead person whose sin is so dark that the conviction of the Holy Spirit can't even "prick" a person's heart become alive? Is that a choice or resisting the Holy Spirit?

[MercyBurst]

Spiritually dead person whose sin is so dark that the conviction of the Holy Spirit can't even "prick" a person's heart become alive? Is that a choice or resisting the Holy Spirit?

Everyone is born a sinner. We should expect sinners to act like sinners if that is their nature. Why would God send someone to an eternal Hell for being what nature made them?

It would be like sending a dog to an eternal hell because a dog acts like a dog, or sending a snake to hell because it does nothing more than act like a snake.

I don't believe that God made mankind for His pleasure in sending them to Hell and punishing them forever. I believe that man, unlike the animals, has a rational choice to change his nature, and that only God can do the changing, but man has to let God do it. Unlike the animals, God made man for the original purpose of having fellowship with Him.

Man broke that fellowship through sin, and all of God's sovereign power can not change the catastrophic result -- man is now born a sinner. Man is born a sinner now, not because of what God did but because of what man did. It was never God's will for man to become a sinner. Nobody can ever tell me otherwise.

This is what really turns me off about calvinism -- it means that God is fully accountable for all the sins of man and the fallen angels that left their first estate -- and we have nobody but God to blame for it -- and He rightfully died on the cross for His own mistake. I find this idea to be grossly repulsive, but that's what calvinism tells me.

[JimfromOhio]

Everyone is born a sinner. We should expect sinners to act like sinners if that is their nature. Why would God send someone to an eternal Hell for being what nature made them?

It would be like sending a dog to an eternal hell because a dog acts like a dog, or sending a snake to hell because it does nothing more than act like a snake.

I don't believe that God made mankind for His pleasure in sending them to Hell and punishing them forever. I believe that man, unlike the animals, has a rational choice to change his nature, and that only God can do the changing, but man has to let God do it. Unlike the animals, God made man for the original purpose of having fellowship with Him.

Man broke that fellowship through sin, and all of God's sovereign power can not change the catastrophic result -- man is now born a sinner. Man is born a sinner now, not because of what God did but because of what man did. It was never God's will for man to become a sinner. Nobody can ever tell me otherwise.

This is what really turns me off about calvinism -- it means that God is fully accountable for all the sins of man and the fallen angels that left their first estate -- and we have nobody but God to blame for it -- and He rightfully died on the cross for His own mistake. I find this idea to be grossly repulsive, but that's what calvinism tells me.

Adam (& Eve) made a choice for us, through their sin, we inherited their sin. Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. Through Jesus Christ, we are born-again spiritually. Romans 5:12 [ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— Unregenerated person means spiritually dead person. Sin is separation from God meaning spiritually dead facing eternal death.

Born-again means spiritually alive facing eternal life.

Ungenerated people have no capacity to understand God's spiritual truth UNLESS the Holy Spirit pricks their hearts and convict them to repent.

Relationship restoration requires repentance to God FIRST and come to the offending person for the restoration. Forgiveness have already completed, now the both parties are to focus on restoration. It takes same two people to restore a relationship of two people. Not one. Just as God forgave us. But in order to restore our relationship with God from eternal death, we are to repent and acknowledge God and Jesus so that we can have eternal life. God ALREADY FORGAVE..... now He is WAITING for those to REPENT so that the relationship can be RESTORED between two people. God and the Believer.

If one is unwilling to acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent is the same person who refused to acknowledge remains spiritually dead.

[Matthan]

Firstly, my comment was directed to the OP. I am well aware of your opinions and would not expect you to post a thread in SR concerning the matter.
I had no way of knowing that. You gave no identifiers, posted right after my post, and seemed to direct your comment at what I had posted. So, sorry about that.

I also believe that Jesus PROMISES to save all who will call on Him. I would never deny that. The only difference is that I believe that man is SO wicked and SO corrupt that he will ALWAYS choose sin and NEVER call on God.
I must disagree. If man were completely in that miserable state, where he would always choose sin, then Jesus' mission, death and resurrection were all for nothing - no men would ever come to him. The truth is that there are some people who do want something more than just having a sinful life. There are good men, and bad. That was true in Moses' time, and in David's, and in Jesus', just as it is true now. There will always be some men (many are called) that do want to find God and get to know Him. unfortunately there are only a relative few (few are chosen) that will actually follow Him as He has directed in Scripture. That is a sad thing.

Thus, God, in his infinite mercy and grace, calls some to Himself and draws them so that they will love Him. All are commanded to repent and all are responsible for their own repentance. Jesus promises to save all who will come to Him.
Spoken like a true Christian. Jesus does promise to save all who believe in Him (but see my next comment)

. .but who will come? those whom He draws.
Here is where we differ. God certainly knows who will come to Him, but does He draw them to HImself? Since He is no respecter of persons, for Him to draw some men to Him and not to draw others when He certainly could would make Him a liar in that He respects some but not others. If He draws some, and not others, then He is not being true to His own holiness. For Him to draw anyone would also mean that Jesus died on the cross for nothing because those persons drawn to God would have been drawn regardless of that event happening or not. No, just the opposite is true. He does not draw anyone to Him in the sense that He causes them to believe in Him. As Jesus clearly tells us, it is we who must do the work of God, which is to believe in the one God sent to us for our salvation.

Nobody who wants to believe on God will be damned because He is not elect. If he wants to believe in God, then he is elect.
Now, that is a unique statement, and I am very surprised you would make it. After all, even the devils, and Satan himself, believe in Jesus, and yet they are reprobate to God. There are many, many people who believe in God, and yet they kneel before idols and say prayers to dead people, even asking those dead people to be there at the hour of their deaths. They may love God just as much as you or I, but their love does not matter when they unknowingly blaspheme God in their worship of Him. Now, that is really really sad, isn't it.

Since I believe that God is the potter and I am the clay, I believe that God can do whatever He wills with His creation-
That is an absolutely true statement, and may God bless you for it.

-even if it means choosing some to eternal life and not choosing others. I see no unfairness with God. Whosoever wills to come to God will come to God and be saved.
It is not a case of "unfairness", mainly because God really can do anything He wants. But, He can never compromise His own holiness. He would never accept devil worshipers, would He? Before you scoff at such a seemingly outlandish statement, think about it for just a bit. That is what you are actually saying because there are many persons who kneel before idols (Paul calls them devils) and pray to God. They have been taught that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable to God. Oh, if only they would read the Scriptures, and then believe what they read in God's Truth. "Whosoever will to come to God" will neither come to God nor be saved by God (according to Scripture) unless they come to Him as He has specifically instructed. and that denotes their use of their own free will, with them wanting to learn about Jesus and then deciding to serve Him as their personal Savior, and of course repenting of their sinful ways (which is another act of their own free will).

You say that preknowledge does not equate with foreordination. In your view, God still knows before the world began that millions would be DAMNED and does nothing about it.
Yes, Yes, YES!!! He certainly knows who will come to Him as He has instructed, just as He also knows who will not come to Him, or not come as He has instructed. He knows, but He does not cause any of those individuals, both the saved and the damned, to get into their condition. And just as He does not cause them to get into that condition, neither does He get them out of it or cause them to get out of it. They must do that all on their own, by the use of their own free will.

He sees that some will come to Him and others will not. If He knows this, why does He not do something so that the others will believe?
He does not do anything because 1.) He does not respect any persons, 2.) He must maintain His own holiness, regardless of what any person might think, say or do, 3.) He does not want to require any person to either believe or not believe, but instead leaves that decision up to each person, 4.) His omniscience does not in any way require similar use of His omnipotence (He knows, but He does not have to act because He knows). He is an all-loving God, but only to those who love Him.

Your view still has an elect people--it's just more man-centered.
No, not at all. My view is only God centered. He sent His Son to walk among men for two main reasons. First, of course, was to serve as the perfect propitious sacrifice that permitted Him to forgive all sinners. Second, but just as important to Him, was Jesus' mission. It was to fulfill all prophecies and to do those things that would cause people to want to be saved, which of course denotes the use of their own free will once again because they must want to be saved. And that is why we have Bibles today, for the same reason. We can read about Jesus, but each of us must want to be saved by Him, and we must do the things that Scripture teaches us.

If you truly believe that what Arun and I believe denies God as you say, then I in no wise can understand how you can call us your brother and your sister--nobody can deny God and live. You claim that you would rather remain in ignorance than learn about predestination. I pity you. When I first learned about the doctrines of grace, my mindset (as I believe all Christian's mindsets should always be about everything) was--"If it's true Lord, then I want to believe it. Open mine eyes so that I may see what is in Your Word." This does not mean that I accepted it blindly. I studied the matter. In my opinion, it is biblical to study doctrines that we might see whether or not they are true, whether or not God might open our eyes to the truth of His Word.
I believe what is contained in Scripture. You freely admit that you believe Scripture plus Calvinism (at least to some degree). Calvinism is nothing more than man's fleshly wisdom, and yet you freely choose to adhere to at least some of its precepts because they sound good. In my humble opinion that is never a good thing to do.

Finally, I do not believe Calvinism because I want to believe it. I believe it because God wants me to believe it and opened my eyes to it.
Oh...? If you think about it for just a moment, you would realize that the tenets of Calvinism actually add to what is clearly found in Scripture. And God tells us three times in Scripture never to do that. Anything added to Scripture is always found to be a lie, at least according to God. But you do what you want.

Matthan

[JacobHall86]

Its Gods Choice who he saves and does not save. Period. For man to think that we have any control over the situation lifts man to a godlike status.

[BBAS 64]

Its Gods Choice who he saves and does not save. Period. For man to think that we have any control over the situation lifts man to a godlike status.

Good Day, Jacob

Born not of blood,
Not of man's will, nor the will of the flesh.

But of God's will, I know men do not like to give God a will, that is His alone. Men do not like God to have a throne that is not subject to what man deems to be fair and just.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In Him,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

I don't see how salvation and predestination can even co-exist.

If somebody is predestinated from the beginning (in the Calvinist sense), they are already elected to go to heaven, so why even bother going through the salvation process?

What are they being saved from? They are already predestinated, so who's kidding who? :sorry:

It's kind of like opening a christmas present to yourself -- wow what a surprise!!!!

Good Day, MercyBurst

You seem to be a quite bit confused....:confused:

It would be help ful to you if you picked up a copy of the London Baptist confession of faith.

Or you could read it on line:

http://www.founders.org/library/bcf/confession.html

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Everyone is born a sinner. We should expect sinners to act like sinners if that is their nature. Why would God send someone to an eternal Hell for being what nature made them?

It would be like sending a dog to an eternal hell because a dog acts like a dog, or sending a snake to hell because it does nothing more than act like a snake.

I don't believe that God made mankind for His pleasure in sending them to Hell and punishing them forever. I believe that man, unlike the animals, has a rational choice to change his nature, and that only God can do the changing, but man has to let God do it. Unlike the animals, God made man for the original purpose of having fellowship with Him.

Man broke that fellowship through sin, and all of God's sovereign power can not change the catastrophic result -- man is now born a sinner. Man is born a sinner now, not because of what God did but because of what man did. It was never God's will for man to become a sinner. Nobody can ever tell me otherwise.

This is what really turns me off about calvinism -- it means that God is fully accountable for all the sins of man and the fallen angels that left their first estate -- and we have nobody but God to blame for it -- and He rightfully died on the cross for His own mistake. I find this idea to be grossly repulsive, but that's what calvinism tells me.

Good Day, MercyBurst

That is what Calvinism tells you???

Really, Source for any Doctrines of Grace believer that taught you that...

Lots to choose from so please "cite".

Did God the Father ordain and predestine the killing of his son?

Where the hands that did it responsible for there actions?

God sends them to Hell for what they do and the wickness of their hearts, they are God's enemy, why they do it is of little midigation the facts is they do it and justly deserve it.... As do I but God granted to me repentance and put with in me a new heart which caused me to walk in His commandments. It is because of the work of God that I have been redeemed by the blood of His son, which he planned and purposed before the foundations of the world...

God had/ has a plan and no one can stay the hand of God no-one.

In Him,

Bill

[MercyBurst]

Good Day, MercyBurst

That is what Calvinism tells you???

Yes, I attended a reformed Presbyterian church for several years. I remember sitting in the pews and wondering if I would ever be one of the elect. I remember wishing I could be, but having no hope, lest I go directly against God's sovereign will. I wanted to get right with God but that wasn't allowed in my church. God's will ruled -- not mine, and I had no choice but to be a loser -- or so I thought.


Really, Source for any Doctrines of Grace believer that taught you that...


Reformed Presbyterian.

Lots to choose from so please "cite".


Did God the Father ordain and predestine the killing of his son?


Yes.

Where the hands that did it responsible for there actions?

Yes.


God sends them to Hell for what they do and the wickness of their hearts, they are God's enemy, why they do it is of little midigation the facts is they do it and justly deserve it....


I believe they have a choice, and they made the wrong one.



As do I but God granted to me repentance and put with in me a new heart which caused me to walk in His commandments.


Likewise they (the unsaved) were given the same bible to read that I have. They preferred darkness. I preferred the light.



It is because of the work of God that I have been redeemed by the blood of His son, which he planned and purposed before the foundations of the world...


He purposed and planned salvation, but it was not His will that mankind should fall into sin.


God had/ has a plan and no one can stay the hand of God no-one.


God had a plan for Lucifer as well as worship leader. Lucifer chose otherwise.

[PETE_]

I remember sitting in the pews and wondering if I would ever be one of the elect. I remember wishing I could be, but having no hope, lest I go directly against God's sovereign will. I wanted to get right with God but that wasn't allowed in my church. God's will ruled -- not mine, and I had no choice but to be a loser --

“Ah!” says one, “I am afraid I am not one of God’s people; I cannot read my name in the book of life.” A very good thing you can’t, for if the Bible had every body’s name in it, it would be a pretty large book; and if your name is John Smith and you saw that name in the Bible, if you do not believe God’s promise now, you would be sure to believe that it was some other John Smith. Suppose the Emperor of Russia should issue a decree to all the Polish refugees to return to their own country; you see a Polish refugee looking at the great placards hanging on the wall he looks with pleasure, and says, “Well, I shall go back to my country.” But some one says to him, “It does not say Walewski.” “Yes, “he would reply, “but it says Polish refugees: Polish is my Christian name, and refugee my surname, and that is me.” And so, though it does not say your name in the Scriptures, it says lost sinner. Sinner is your Christian name, and lost is your surname; therefore, why not come? It says, “lost sinner;”-is not that enough? “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief.” “Yes, but,” another one says, “I am afraid I am not elect.’ Oh! dear souls, do not trouble yourselves about that. If you believe in Christ you are elect. Whoever puts himself on the mercy of Jesus is elect; for he would never do it if he had not been elect. Whoever comes to Christ, and looks for mercy through his blood, is elect, and he shall see that he is elect afterwards; but do not expect to read election till you have read repentance. Election is a college to which you little ones will not go till you have been to the school of repentance. Do not begin to read your book backwards, and say Amen before you have said your paternoster. Begin with “Our Father,” and then you will go on to “thine is the kingdom the power and the glory;” but begin with “the kingdom,” and you will have hard work to go back to “Our Father.” We must begin with faith. We must begin with-
“Nothing in my hands I bring.”
As God made the world out of nothing, he always makes his Christians out of nothing; and he who has nothing at all to-night, shall find grace and mercy, if he will come for it.
[/URL][URL="http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=33335722#_ftnref1"] (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=33335722#_ftn1)Spurgeon, C. H.

[sheina]

Way of Life Encyclopedia
PREDESTINATION

God planned man's salvation before the creation (Eph 1:5,11). This does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved (1Ti 2:3-4; Joh 3:16; 2Pe 3:9). God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestinated TO than WHO is predestinated (1Pe 1:2; Ro 8:29). Predestination assures eternal salvation.We are definitely NOT predestined to salvation. God's gift of salvation is universal--not all will accept, many will reject. As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We are saved from God's wrath and eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14-15). God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9).

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

What a loving and holy God we serve!

[BBAS 64]

We are definitely NOT predestined to salvation. God's gift of salvation is universal--not all will accept, many will reject. As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We are saved from God's wrath and eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14-15). God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9).

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

What a loving and holy God we serve!

Good Day, Sheina

Context of 2 Pe.

2 Pe 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 debuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


The usward and all in verse 9 are pronoun forms to that end they represent "belivers". The promise is not salvation, but the second comming that this passage addresses. To make this about salvation is no contextual scripture reading.

IN Him,

Bill

[Iosias]

What are they being saved from?

The wrath of God because if God had not chosen the elect to be saved they would remain in their blindness and perish eternally!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

[sheina]

*Reward for Believers

The usward and all in verse 9 are pronoun forms to that end they represent "belivers". The promise is not salvation, but the second comming that this passage addresses. To make this about salvation is no contextual scripture reading.
Typical Calvinistic response! Sounds just like a quote from James White.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

If this passage is not talking about salvation, the word "perish" must refer to to perishing in the fire of God's judgment that will, in the Day of the Lord, destroy the universe. That is certainly a possibility for unbelievers--but for the "elect", there is a problem with that. How could there be any danger that the "elect" might perish in the final fire of God's judgment--and how would His longsuffering toward them (the elect) prevent such an end?

The fact that believers are being addressed is no reason that Peter cannot make a statement about God's desire for the whole world, including the fate of unbelievers.

Peter is referring to the destruction of the universe from which the elect have been delivered. The ungodly are the ones who will perish. The only consistent understanding of the verse is that God does not want anyone to perish, and, as He has done with Israel, is longsuffering in pleading with them and waiting upon them to repent and be saved--as all Scripture declares. What Love Is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God (second edition) by Dave Hunt; pg. 352

[edb19]

In answer to the question in the OP, we are saved from God by God for the glory of God.

[Iosias]

The
CAUSE OF GOD AND TRUTH.
Part 1
Section 56—2 Peter 3:9.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (as some men count slackness), but is long suffering to us ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This scripture appears among those which are said[1] (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_56.htm#) to be very many clear and express ones for the doctrine of universal redemption; and it is observed,[2] (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_56.htm#[2]) "that ti>nev, opposed to pa>ntev, is a distributive of all, and, therefore, signifies, God is not willing that any one of the whole rank of men should perish" But,
1. It is not true that God is not willing any one individual of the human race should perish, since he has made and appointed the wicked for the day of evil, even ungodly men,who are foreordained to this condemnation,such as are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;yea, there are some to whom God sends strong delusions, that they may believe a lie, that they all might be damned, and others whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not and their damnation slumbereth not (Prov. 16:4; Jude 1:4; Rom. 9:22; 2 Thess. 1:12; 2 Pet. 1:3). Nor is it his will that all men, in this large sense, should come to repentance, since he withholds from many both the means and grace of repentance; and though it is his will of precept, that all to whom the preaching of the Gospel is vouchsafed should repent, yet it is not his purposing, determining will, to bring them all to repentance, for who hath resisted his will?(Rom. 9:19.)
2. It is very true that ti>nev, any,being opposed to pa>ntev, all,is a distributive of it; but then both the any and the all are to be limited and restrained by the us, to whom God is longsuffering; God is not willing that any more should not perish, and is willing that no more should come to repentance than the us to whom his longsuffering is salvation. The key, therefore, to open this text lies in these words, eijv hJma~v, to us ward,or for our sake;for, these are the persons God would not have any of them perish, but would have them all come to repentance. It will be proper, therefore,
3. To inquire who these are. It is evident that they are distinguished from the scoffers mocking at the promise of Christ’s coming, (vv. 3, 4), are called beloved, (vv. 1, 8, 14, 17), which is to be understood either of their being beloved by God, with an everlasting and unchangeable love, or of their being beloved as brethren by the apostle and other saints; neither of which is true of all mankind. Besides, the design of the words is to establish the saints in, and comfort them with the coming of Christ, until which, God was longsuffering towards them, and which they were to account salvation (v. 15). Add to this, that the apostle manifestly designs a company or society to which he belonged, and of which he was a part, and so can mean no other than such who were chosen of God, redeemed from among men; and called out of darkness into marvelous light; and such were the persons the apostle writes to. Some copies read the words diJ uJma~v, for your sakes;so the Alexandrian MS. the Syriac version, ˆwktlfm, for you, or your sakes; the same way the Ethiopic. Now these persons were such who were elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (1 Pet. 1:2); and such, as these, or who belong to the same election of grace they did, God is unwilling that any of them should perish, but wills that all of them should have repentance unto life; and, therefore, he waits to be gracious to them, and defers the second coming of Christ. The case stands thus: there was a promise of Christ’s second coming, to judge the world, delivered out; it was expected that this would have been very quickly, whereas it has been a long time deferred. Hence scoffers shall arise in the last days,charging the Lord with slackness and dilatoriness concerning his promise, though he is not slack with respect to it, but is long-suffering towards his elect, waiting till their number is completed in effectual vocation, and for their sakes bears with all the idolatry, superstition, and profaneness that are in the world; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will stay no longer, but descend in flames of fire, take his own elect to himself, and burn up the world and the wicked in it.
4. It is indeed[3] (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_56.htm#[3]) said, "that the apostle, by the elect,to whom he writes, does not mean men absolutely designed for eternal happiness, but only men professing Christianity, or such as were visible members of the church of Christ: since he calls upon them to make their calling and election sure,exhorts theta to watchfulness, seeing their adversary the devil goes about seeking whom he may devour,and to beware lest they fall from their own steadfastness;yea, he speaks of some of them as having forsaken the right way;and also prophesies that false teachers should make merchandise of them,neither of which, it is observed, can be supposed of men absolutely elected to salvation; and, also, that the church at Babylon was elected, together with these persons, which could not be known and said of all its members." To all which I reply, that calling upon them to make their election sure, does not suppose it to be a precarious and conditional one, as I have shown in a preceding section that exhortations to sobriety, and vigilance against Satan, and cautions about falling, are pertinent to such who are absolutely elected to salvation; for, though Satan cannot devour them, he may greatly distress them; and, though they shall not finally and totally fall from the grace of God, yet they may fall from some degree of steadfastness,both as to the doctrine and grace of faith, which may be to their detriment as well as to the dishonor of God: that it is not true, that the apostle speaks of any of these elect he writes to, that they had forsaken the right way,but of some other persons; and though he prophesies that false teachers should make merchandise of them, the meaning is, that, by their fine words and fair speeches, they should be able to draw money out of their pockets, not that they should destroy the grace of God wrought in their hearts. As to the church at Babylon being said to be elected with them, the apostle might say this of the church in general, as he does, in a judgment of charity, of the church at Thessalonica, and others, though every member of it in particular was not elected to salvation, without any prejudice to the doctrine of absolute election. Besides, the persons he writes to were not visible members of any one particular church or community, professing Christianity, but were strangers scattered abroad in several parts of the world, and, were such who had obtained like precious faith with the apostles, and is a strong evidence of their being men absolutely designed for eternal happiness. And whereas it is suggested, that these persons were come to repentance, and therefore cannot be the same to whom God is longsuffering, that they might come to repentance; I answer, that though they are not the stone individual persons, yet are such who belong to the same body and number of the elect, on whom the Lord waits,and to whom he is 1ongsuffering, until they are all brought to partake of this grace, having determined that not one of them should ever perish.
5. Hence it follows, that these words do not furnish, out any argument in favor of universal redemption, nor do they militate[4] (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%201/section_56.htm#[4]) against absolute election and reprobation, or unfrustrable grace in conversion; but, on the contrary, maintain and establish them, since it appears to be the will of God, that not one of those he has chosen in Christ, given to him, and for whom he died, shall ever perish; and, inasmuch as evangelical repentance is necessary for them, and they cannot come at it of themselves, he freely bestows it on them, and, by his unfrustrable grace, works it in them; and, until this is done unto and upon every one of them, he keeps the world in being, which is reserved unto fire, against the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men.
ENDNOTES:
[1] Remonstr. in Coll. Hag. art. 2. p. 160, 181, 196; Curcellaeus, p. 364; Limborch, p. 333; Whitby, p. 113; ed. 2. 111.
[2] Whitby, p. 124; ed. 2. 121.
[3] Whitby, p. 125, 126; ed. 2. 122, 123.
[4] Whitby, p. 13, 75; ed. 2. 74.

[Iosias]

2 Peter 3:9 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/2_Peter/3.html#9)

Ver. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,.... The Syriac version reads in the plural, "his promises", any of his promises; though the words seem rather to regard the particular promise of Christ's coming, either to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, of which coming there was a promise made, and is often referred to by Christ, and his apostles; see Mr 9:1 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Mark/9.html#1)
Heb 10:37 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Hebrews/10.html#37); and it now being upwards of thirty years since it was given out, some men began to charge God with slackness and dilatoriness; whereas the true reason of the delay of it was, that there might be time for the gathering in of his elect among them by his angels, or apostles and ministers, sent into the several parts of Judea, that so none of them might perish, but be brought to faith and repentance; and thus as the time of Christ's coming was prolonged more than was thought it would, so when the days of afflictions were come, they were shortened also for these elect's sake: or this promise regards the second coming of Christ, to judge the quick and dead at the last day, of which the former was a prelude, presage, and pledge; that Christ would come again, and appear a second time in person, was promised by himself, and often spoken of by his apostles; and many of the primitive Christians thought it would be very soon, and which might be occasioned by the hints that were given of his coming in the other sense. Now this being deferred longer than was expected, the scoffers or mockers take upon them to charge the Lord with slackness in the fulfilment of his promise:

as some men count slackness; as if he had either changed his purpose, or had prolonged it beyond the appointed time, or was unmindful of his promise, and would never fulfil it; whereas he is in one mind, and none can turn him, nor will he delay the fulfilment of his promise beyond the set time; he has fixed a day for his coming, in which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he will keep it: he is not dilatory,

but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/2_Peter/3.html#3); and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/2_Peter/3.html#1); and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/2_Peter/3.html#15), nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews {f}, esteemed by them very ancient.

"God prolongs or defers his anger with men; and one day, which is a thousand years, is fixed, besides the seventy years he delivered to David the king.--And he does not judge man by his evil works which he continually does, for if so, the world would not stand; but the holy blessed God defers his anger with the righteous, and the wicked, that they may return, by perfect repentance, and be established in this world, and in the world to come.''

And it is an observation of theirs {g}, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written Pa Kra, but Mypa Kra, intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the former: compare with this passage Re 6:9 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Revelation/6.html#9);

not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.

But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them, to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded, even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail.

{f} Zohar in Gen. fol. 83. 3. {g} T. Hieros, Taanioth, fol. 65. 2. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 50. 2.

[sheina]

I thought this forum was for Baptists. It seems as though it is more of a Calvinist forum than a Baptist forum.

[PETE_]

I thought this forum was for Baptists. It seems as though it is more of a Calvinist forum than a Baptist forum.
Some Baptists are Calvinist, but not all Calvinists are Baptist.

[sheina]

Some Baptists are Calvinist, but not all Calvinists are Baptist.
I know I am going to open a can of worms, but I disagree that some Baptists are Calvinist. The roots of Calvinism are in Catholicism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism and not Baptist. John Calvin quoted Augustine over 400 times in his Institutes on the Christian Religion--Augustine is the father of Roman Catholicism. You could probably call Calvinism, Augustinianism.

I know many former Baptists who are now Calvinists--I say former because these people were saved in Baptist churches and later on started to study under Calvinists and BECAME Calvinists.

The God of the Bible is love, His tender mercies are over all His works, He doesn't want anyone to be lost, and He so loved the world that He gave Christ to pay the penalty of sin for every man. God did not predestinate some to heaven and some to hell. As a matter of fact, God does not elect any to salvation--He draws all to Himself (Matthew 11:28-29). Not all accept, and many reject His calling. (Matthew 7:13-14).

[JimfromOhio]

I thought this forum was for Baptists. It seems as though it is more of a Calvinist forum than a Baptist forum.

There are many Reformed Baptists here.

In case you don't know. John Piper (if you heard of him, he is on the radio nationwide and author of "Desiring God") is a Reformed Baptist and a Calvinist.

[JacobHall86]

I thought this forum was for Baptists. It seems as though it is more of a Calvinist forum than a Baptist forum.

Your post leads most to beleive you are very ignorant of Baptist History.

[JimfromOhio]

Your post leads most to beleive you are very ignorant of Baptist History.

Not the person's fault. When I was growing up, I was a member of various independent baptist churches, many of them didn't agree with Baptist history and often avoid bringing up the Baptist history.

Independent Baptist Churches (some are GREAT but many are not) are too independent from the Baptist faith. That was one of my issues.

I learned Baptist history much later. Baptist have a good history but not as historical as other denominations since there are so many kinds of "Baptists".

[VCViking]

We are definitely NOT predestined to salvation. God's gift of salvation is universal--not all will accept, many will reject. As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We are saved from God's wrath and eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14-15). God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9).

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

What a loving and holy God we serve!


:thumbsup:

God is completely sovereign over all things but that he chose to give each individual free will, which each person can exercise to accept or reject God's offer of salvation and hence God's actions and determinations follow according to man's choice.

[VCViking]

The God of the Bible is love, His tender mercies are over all His works, He doesn't want anyone to be lost, and He so loved the world that He gave Christ to pay the penalty of sin for every man. God did not predestinate some to heaven and some to hell. As a matter of fact, God does not elect any to salvation--He draws all to Himself (Matthew 11:28-29). Not all accept, and many reject His calling. (Matthew 7:13-14).


:amen:


God predestined the faithful to be saved, but each individual decides whether or not he will be among the faithful. Hence, the saved are the elect, but this is conditional, not unconditional and they do have a choice.

[sheina]

Your post leads most to beleive you are very ignorant of Baptist History.
It all depends on which perspective of Baptist History you study. I don't study Baptist History from the Calvinistic perspective. I have read much on Baptist History--not only Baptist History, but the History of the Churches from the Baptist perspective. I also know this: John Calvin despised the Baptists.

[PETE_]

:thumbsup:

God is completely sovereign over all things but that he chose to give each individual free will, which each person can exercise to accept or reject God's offer of salvation and hence God's actions and determinations follow according to man's choice.

:amen:


God predestined the faithful to be saved, but each individual decides whether or not he will be among the faithful. Hence, the saved are the elect, but this is conditional, not unconditional and they do have a choice.

you assume that the unregenerate can understand and seek spiritual things, when scripture teaches that they cannot.

[DeaconDean]

I don't see how salvation and predestination can even co-exist.

Why not, it's clearly taught in the Bible.

If somebody is predestinated from the beginning (in the Calvinist sense), they are already elected to go to heaven, so why even bother going through the salvation process?

Because without going through Jesus Christ, even if they are "predestinated" they will not enter heaven.

What are they being saved from? They are already predestinated, so who's kidding who? :sorry:

My Bible tells me:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." -Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

And also:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." -1 Thes. 1:10 (KJV)

And much more importantly:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," -1 Thes. 5:9 (KJV)

It's kind of like opening a christmas present to yourself -- wow what a surprise!!!!

It is not for us to know who is and who isn't among the "elect." But it is our responsibility to go out into the world and preach Jesus Christ crucified for our sins, risen on the third day for our justification. We have the same command on us as did the disciples:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" -Mt. 28:19-20 (KJV)

We are to do this so that we may reach, with the gospel, whomever God has chosen to be among the elect.

Did not Paul teach us:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -Rom. 10:14-15 (KJV)

It would do some good to read about Adoniram Judson the first missionary to Burma. He left America on way to Burma because he believed that God had some "elect" in Burma, and without preaching to them, they might be left without.

That is why I say it is not for us to know who is and who isn't among the "elect." It is our duty, however, to preach Jesus Christ that we might reach His "elect."

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PETE_]

It all depends on which perspective of Baptist History you study. I don't study Baptist History from the Calvinistic perspective. I have read much on Baptist History--not only Baptist History, but the History of the Churches from the Baptist perspective. I also know this: John Calvin despised the Baptists.
Seems odd that he would marry a Baptist woman then. The widow of a Baptist preacher.

[Matthan]

Your post leads most to beleive you are very ignorant of Baptist History.
Jacob, your spiritual myopia is showing. True Baptist "history" does not include calvinism in any way. Calvin, and those that did follow him in his movement, were indeed ex-catholics. And he and they managed to carry a LOT of heresy from the old movement of Rome to their new movement.

If you would just step back and see the bigger picture, as I have outlined clearly in my posts both on this thread and on the one I started denouncing predestination, you might understand that calvinism is, at best, an attempt by man to show his wisdom concerning God's motives. At worst it is insidiously unscriptural and could cause some to wander off of that narrow pathway and miss the straight gate.

But, if you insist on clinging to man's wisdom rather than claiming God's Truth as your only guide, that is your choice. It is you using your own free will. You can believe what you want.

Matthan

[DeaconDean]

Ok people, lets take time to review the rules:

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's religious beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Calling or describing other people, groups, belief-systems, or ideas as heresy or a cult (or derivatives of these words). Instead of using these emotionally charged words, please state "X is wrong because of Y" rather than using these words in polemical discussion;
- Asking loaded questions that directly cause flames in response;
- Using sarcasm to attempt any of the above;

Just because you might not subscribe to a particular "ism" does not give you the right to use some words.

If you can't play nicely, you can't play at all. And this thread will be closed.

BE RESPECTFUL OF OTHERS.

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DMagoh]

Why did Jesus issue the Great Commission? If we are presdestined, it doesnt really matter whether we go forth or not. Those chosen will go to heaven, those not chosen wont.

If I tell Bob or dont tell Bob, if Bob has already been chosen, he's going to heaven whether I witness to him or not. Maybe Jesus didnt understand predestination when he gave the Great Commission?

[DeaconDean]

Why did Jesus issue the Great Commission? If we are presdestined, it doesnt really matter whether we go forth or not. Those chosen will go to heaven, those not chosen wont.

If I tell Bob or dont tell Bob, if Bob has already been chosen, he's going to heaven whether I witness to him or not. Maybe Jesus didnt understand predestination when he gave the Great Commission?

One of the biggest straw man I've ever seen!

The Bible clearly says:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -Jn. 14:16 (KJV)

It also says:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." -Jn. 3:15-18, 36 (KJV)

Who told you of the Lord and His plan of salvation?

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -Rom. 10:14-15 (KJV)

Somebody had to. If you do not go out and witness and fulfill the great commission, then you'd be negligent in your duties to your Lord.

As I said before:

It is not for us to know who is and who isn't among the "elect." But it is our responsibility to go out into the world and preach Jesus Christ crucified for our sins, risen on the third day for our justification. We have the same command on us as did the disciples:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" -Mt. 28:19-20 (KJV)

We are to do this so that we may reach, with the gospel, whomever God has chosen to be among the elect.

By all means, go ahead and follow your:

he's going to heaven whether I witness to him or not.

But you'll regret it in the end.

Like I said before, one might want to spend some time reading about William Cary and Adoniram Judson.

Well, I guess I'm wrong here too.

I'll take my leave and bid you God Bless.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DMagoh]

Who told you of the Lord and His plan of salvation?...

...Somebody had to. If you do not go out and witness and fulfill the great commission, then you'd be negligent in your duties to your Lord.

That's what I dont get.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them, they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?

[JacobHall86]

Jacob, your spiritual myopia is showing. True Baptist "history" does not include calvinism in any way. Calvin, and those that did follow him in his movement, were indeed ex-catholics. And he and they managed to carry a LOT of heresy from the old movement of Rome to their new movement.

If you would just step back and see the bigger picture, as I have outlined clearly in my posts both on this thread and on the one I started denouncing predestination, you might understand that calvinism is, at best, an attempt by man to show his wisdom concerning God's motives. At worst it is an insidious heresy that could cause some to wander off of that narrow pathway and miss the straight gate.

But, if you insist on clinging to man's wisdom rather than claiming God's Truth as your only guide, that is your choice. It is you using your own free will. You can believe what you want.

Matthan

Baptist history most certainly has its roots in Calvinism.
Charles Spurgeon sound familiar?

Also, there is no mention of free will in the Bible. The only mention of choice that I see is God's Sovereign choice.

But if you want to hold onto the ideas of Pelagus (Who was actually considered a Heretic) go ahead, because God has Foreordained that you believe in error.

[JacobHall86]

That's what I dont get.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them, they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?

No, God will reveal himself to that person, and he commands us to do it. Do you really think so highly of yourself that you can limit God?

[PETE_]

That's what I dont get.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them, they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?
Luke 19:40
40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
(from New International Version)


We were told to go and spread the good news, but our disobedience or poor skills in doing so will not thwart God's plan.

[DMagoh]

No, God will reveal himself to that person, and he commands us to do it. Do you really think so highly of yourself that you can limit God?

Who said I could limit God? DeaconDean mentioned that we had to witness so that the elect would get saved. I was just saying, if people are elect, they are elect whether anybody witnesses to them or not - they are going to heaven if they are elect.

You're the one trying to limit God by saying he cant save his "elect" unless someone witnesses to them.

[DMagoh]

But if you want to hold onto the ideas of Pelagus (Who was actually considered a Heretic) go ahead, because God has Foreordained that you believe in error.

By the way, I know you claim you dont deserve salvation and praise God that he chose you, but dont you at least feel sorry for your next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but dont you feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Dont you feel gulity that you get to be saved and others have no choice in the matter?

[MrJim]

...it's like deja vu or something--all the predestination threads are looking the same...guess something had to fill the kjv argument void...

[Matthan]

That's what I dont get.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them, they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?
Your post clearly points up the silliness of a predestination mentality that certain "isms" seem to cling to. They claim that God chooses who will receive His gift of grace, and logically that also means He chooses who will not receive His grace. Scripture clearly tells us that He can certainly do that, but Scripture also clearly tells us that He does not do that with respect to those who want to believe in Him. The Bible also clearly tells all who read it without a bias placed in their minds by man's so-called "wisdom" that God knows who all of the saved are, but He does not select those who receive His grace. They must arrive at that decision all by themselves, by either doing the work of God, or not doing that work (John 6:29). It is for that reason that God clearly tells us that we must preach Jesus to all the world, and whosoever believes will receive eternal life.

By the way, one poster here accused you of making "One of the biggest straw man I've ever seen!" Please believe me when I tell you there was no straw man arguments at all in your post. His assertion was based on his man-created belief of the existence of predestination. What you posted was true and correct. The problem is not yours, but his for clinging to a doctrine created by men rather than opening his eyes and seeing the truth of God that is clearly contained in Scripture.

By way of example, I will use one of the verses he cited. "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." He would have you believe that the "whosoever" in that verse includes only those persons that God has preselected to receive His grace. That is spiritually myoptic in that it denies what Jesus actually stated. For God to preselect anyone requires us to believe that whosoever (an unlimited anyone) does not really mean whosoever (instead means a qualified or extremely limited anyone). Everybody else is excluded from that whosoever.

The reasons such a doctrine is unscriptural are numerous. God tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but man's doctrine tells us that Jesus only died for the sins of a pre-selected few. God tells us that He does not respect any persons, but man's doctrine tells us that God does respect a pre-selected few that He give His grace to. God tells us that He will judge those who have sinned but have not believed in Jesus and repented of their sins, but this man-conceived doctrine tells us God has pre-selected many for eternal destruction and yet God will not have to judge Himself for requiring them to go to eternal destruction. He will instead judge them for their lack of belief in His Son that He caused them not to develop or possess, or for sins He required them to commit.

Man's doctrines, regardless of how wonderful they might sound, or how spiritual they might seem, or how biblical they might appear, ALWAYS fall flat on their face. This includes all of the creeds, manifestos and doctrines generated by any person or persons after the time of the apostles. God in His infinite wisdom has given us a clear rule and guide, and He expects us to follow ONLY it. If we stray from that roadmap, we do so at our own peril.

There are some on this thread who claim to be ordained into the ministry, and yet they cling to unscriptural doctrines of men rather than place their trust in God alone. You can read about their predecessors in Scripture. (citations available on request by PM only)

Never forget one important rule that comes straight from God concerning doctrines of man. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." If you remember that we are completely unrighteous, and our only hope is to cling to God's Truth that is found only in Scripture, and to trust only in Him, then you can never, ever go wrong.

Matthan

[JimfromOhio]

Your post clearly points up the silliness of a predestination mentality that certain "isms" seem to cling to. They claim that God chooses who will receive His gift of grace, and logically that also means He chooses who will not receive His grace. Scripture clearly tells us that He can certainly do that, but Scripture also clearly tells us that He does not do that with respect to those who want to believe in Him. The Bible also clearly tells all who read it without a bias placed in their minds by man's so-called "wisdom" that God knows who all of the saved are, but He does not select those who receive His grace. They must arrive at that decision all by themselves, by either doing the work of God, or not doing that work (John 6:29). It is for that reason that God clearly tells us that we must preach Jesus to all the world, and whosoever believes will receive eternal life.

By the way, one poster here accused you of making "One of the biggest straw man I've ever seen!" Please believe me when I tell you there was no straw man arguments at all in your post. His assertion was based on his man-created belief of the existence of predestination. What you posted was true and correct. The problem is not yours, but his for clinging to a doctrine created by men rather than opening his eyes and seeing the truth of God that is clearly contained in Scripture.

By way of example, I will use one of the verses he cited. "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." He would have you believe that the "whosoever" in that verse includes only those persons that God has preselected to receive His grace. That is spiritually myoptic in that it denies what Jesus actually stated. For God to preselect anyone requires us to believe that whosoever (an unlimited anyone) does not really mean whosoever (instead means a qualified or extremely limited anyone). Everybody else is excluded from that whosoever.

The reasons such a doctrine is unscriptural are numerous. God tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but man's doctrine tells us that Jesus only died for the sins of a pre-selected few. God tells us that He does not respect any persons, but man's doctrine tells us that God does respect a pre-selected few that He give His grace to. God tells us that He will judge those who have sinned but have not believed in Jesus and repented of their sins, but this man-conceived doctrine tells us God has pre-selected many for eternal destruction and yet God will not have to judge Himself for requiring them to go to eternal destruction. He will instead judge them for their lack of belief in His Son that He caused them not to develop or possess, or for sins He required them to commit.

Man's doctrines, regardless of how wonderful they might sound, or how spiritual they might seem, or how biblical they might appear, ALWAYS fall flat on their face. This includes all of the creeds, manifestos and doctrines generated by any person or persons after the time of the apostles. God in His infinite wisdom has given us a clear rule and guide, and He expects us to follow ONLY it. If we stray from that roadmap, we do so at our own peril.

There are some on this thread who claim to be ordained into the ministry, and yet they cling to unscriptural doctrines of men rather than place their trust in God alone. You can read about their predecessors in Scripture. (citations available on request by PM only)

Never forget one important rule that comes straight from God concerning doctrines of man. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." If you remember that we are completely unrighteous, and our only hope is to cling to God's Truth that is found only in Scripture, and to trust only in Him, then you can never, ever go wrong.

Matthan

So, you don't have one Christian book that is written by a calvinist. You be surprised if you have a book written by one. ;) If you do, throw it (or them) away. :thumbsup:

Being a Baptist/AnaBaptist for 40 some years of my life. I found out later that many of the books I enjoyed were written by Calvinists. :wave:

[JacobHall86]

By the way, I know you claim you dont deserve salvation and praise God that he chose you, but dont you at least feel sorry for your next door neighbor, the smuck that God didnt choose? He doesnt deserve salvation either, I agree - but dont you feel sorry for the poor smucks that didnt get chosen? Dont you feel gulity that you get to be saved and others have no choice in the matter?

What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over.

If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.

[JuJube]

What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over.

If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.
Wow brother, I'm not so sure you know what you are saying here. As a matter of fact, when I am sitting down eating all that I can eat, my heart DOES ache for those that are without. Even more so for the lost!

[DMagoh]

Wow brother, I'm not so sure you know what you are saying here. As a matter of fact, when I am sitting down eating all that I can eat, my heart DOES ache for those that are without. Even more so for the lost!

Thank you JuJube! I cant believe what some of these Calvinists are saying! "I'm just glad I'm chosen, and to hell (literally) with everybody else! That's the 'ole Christian spirit! That's at least two Calvinists on this forum that feel that way (see below):


What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over. If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.


No, it doesn't bother me in the least little bit... I am just thankful that He loved and chose me. And I will spend the rest of my life serving Him in return.

[Matthan]

Hou guys, DMagoh and Jujube, have really managed to hit the nail on the head. The insidious problems connected with calvinism do involve, among other things, a "holier than thou" attitude and a lessened desire to witness Jesus to others. The proponents of this unscriptural doctrinal attitude will hotly protest that such is not the case, but the meer fact they believe some are chosen by God and others are rejected by Him at least subconsciously means they will not do all they can all the time.

Matthan

[JacobHall86]

Hou guys, DMagoh and Jujube, have really managed to hit the nail on the head. The insidious problems connected with calvinism do involve, among other things, a "holier than thou" attitude and a lessened desire to witness Jesus to others. The proponents of this unscriptural doctrinal attitude will hotly protest that such is not the case, but the meer fact they believe some are chosen by God and others are rejected by Him at least subconsciously means they will not do all they can all the time.

Matthan

Do everyone a favor. Pull your head out of the sand and actually research what Calvinists believe. Your nonsense of strawmen is really awful, and serves no good. When you understand what you are talking about we welcome you to debate, but until you leave the childish strawmen aside, dont talk about Calvinism, because you dont know what you are talking about.

[JuJube]

Do everyone a favor. Pull your head out of the sand and actually research what Calvinists believe. Your nonsense of strawmen is really awful, and serves no good. When you understand what you are talking about we welcome you to debate, but until you leave the childish strawmen aside, dont talk about Calvinism, because you dont know what you are talking about.
If caring about others is your definition of a straw man, then I do not care to discuss with you any further.

[JacobHall86]

If caring about others is your definition of a straw man, then I do not care to discuss with you any further.

Wow, do you look for things to say that are totally false or is all this an accident? Where have any of us said we dont care for other people? Non-Calvinists are so ridiculous with their accusations based on lies. Research what Calvinists Believe and take the foot out of your mouth.

[DMagoh]

Where have any of us said we dont care for other people?

Refer to your comment below...


What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over.

If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.

[JacobHall86]

Caring for People and feeling remorse are not the same thing.

[PETE_]

The insidious problems connected with calvinism do involve, among other things, a "holier than thou" attitude and a lessened desire to witness Jesus to others.


First, what reason would one have to have such an attitude? Since I did nothing to merit His favor there is no reason to think such a thing. I do not even look as harshly on non-believers since understanding that until God changes their heart, they cannot help but deny Him.

Second, some may use election as an excuse not to witness, but they do so in error. I see it as an encouragement. I need not worry if I am not the best speaker or cannot think of the right words to say at the moment. If God will change the person's heart, the work of the Holy Spirit will not be thwarted by my inadaquacy. So, I can witness boldly and rely on Him to do the work of salvation.

[JimfromOhio]

If caring about others is your definition of a straw man, then I do not care to discuss with you any further.

I see the difference between non-calvinists and calvinists in this thread, calvinists have been very tolerant of non-calvinists negative posts. I am assuming you are a non-calvinist?

[JimfromOhio]

Caring for People and feeling remorse are not the same thing.

Often they are confusing the two. :sigh: :swoon:

[Ceridwen]

Saved from God's vengeance, obviously.

[BBAS 64]

Typical Calvinistic response! Sounds just like a quote from James White.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

If this passage is not talking about salvation, the word "perish" must refer to to perishing in the fire of God's judgment that will, in the Day of the Lord, destroy the universe. That is certainly a possibility for unbelievers--but for the "elect", there is a problem with that. How could there be any danger that the "elect" might perish in the final fire of God's judgment--and how would His longsuffering toward them (the elect) prevent such an end?




Good day, Sheina

Thanks for the compliment, But I am no James White his greek is far better than mine.

See you have not dealt with the pronouns of this passage.

Dave Hunt :( , I use to have respect for Mr. Hunt but to use the NWT (JW) translation to uphold a clearly silly position is where I draw the line..

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Way of Life Encyclopedia
PREDESTINATION

God planned man's salvation before the creation (Eph 1:5,11). This does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved (1Ti 2:3-4; Joh 3:16; 2Pe 3:9). God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestinated TO than WHO is predestinated (1Pe 1:2; Ro 8:29). Predestination assures eternal salvation.


Way of life :scratch: :confused:

They really have to read what the text says...

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Man and his traditions..... read the text!

Clearly they do not understand adoption, nor the historical context of the wedding where the "bride" is picked for the groom.

Who said he choses abitrarily?? "Straw"

It is according to His will which brings Him much pleasure.

In Him,

Bill

[Matthan]

Oops....

[JuJube]

I see the difference between non-calvinists and calvinists in this thread, calvinists have been very tolerant of non-calvinists negative posts. I am assuming you are a non-calvinist?
Oh, it's that obvious. Sorry, I'm not trying to sound negative, it's just that some of the statements made amaze me and if a nonchristian were to hear them, which they do, they would wonder where the love of God is in all of this...and frankly so do I. I've been talking to some atheists on this forum, and this doctrine is the very thing that they call God a tyrant for. You are born without a choice in the matter. Doomed to be sent to hell if not chosen. How is this love?

[MercyBurst]

Oh, it's that obvious. Sorry, I'm not trying to sound negative, it's just that some of the statements made amaze me and if a nonchristian were to hear them, which they do, they would wonder where the love of God is in all of this...and frankly so do I. I've been talking to some atheists on this forum, and this doctrine is the very thing that they call God a tyrant for. You are born without a choice in the matter. Doomed to be sent to hell if not chosen. How is this love?

I second that motion. Calvinism has no love in it, only the iron-fisted, intolerant will of a dictator that sends people to hell that never had a choice. And He gives them no choice just to make sure he has torture victims. This is not the God I believe in.

The God I believe in loves people. Love requires choice. Love requires God's choice and love requires my choice. How can love exist without choice?

[DMagoh]

I think the biggest thing is that Calvinists tend to confuse foreknowledge with God choosing. Obviously God has foreknowledge as to who will accept Jesus and who will not - that does not mean He chose some and didnt choose others:


For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29


who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. 1 Peter 1:2




God is love, and God so loved the world that he gave Jesus. The Bible clearly teaches that God does not want anyone to perish:


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4




I know, I know, Calvinists have some convoluted response to how "anyone" doesnt really mean anyone, how "everyone" doesnt really mean everyone, and how "all" doesnt really mean all. :scratch:

[MercyBurst]

I think the biggest thing is that Calvinists tend to confuse foreknowledge with God choosing. Obviously God has foreknowledge as to who will accept Jesus and who will not - that does not mean He chose some and didnt choose others:


For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29


who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. 1 Peter 1:2




God is love, and God so loved the world that he gave Jesus. The Bible clearly teaches that God does not want anyone to perish:


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4




I know, I know, Calvinists have some convoluted response to how "anyone" doesnt really mean anyone, how "everyone" doesnt really mean everyone, and how "all" doesnt really mean all. :scratch:


...and how "love" doesn't really mean "love." ;)

[JacobHall86]

I second that motion. Calvinism has no love in it, only the iron-fisted, intolerant will of a dictator that sends people to hell that never had a choice. And He gives them no choice j