So what is SIN, and who determines it?

[reddogs]

Now since I have no problem seeing sin (and its consequences) as God and His scriptures and the law shows it to me. However, having said that I will put out some questions to see if anyone has a different line of thought on it:

1) How is something judged/demarcated as sin?

-Who decides what is right and wrong? -Who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for everybody to do? -If a new technology creates a issue not addressed directly such internet downloading of copyrighted music and movies, what decides if it is wrong morally and a sin? -Are there anything else other than the Bible that define for us what God says is righteousness and what is sin?

2) What are the basic definitions of sin given in the Bible?

3) Was there sin before God spoke the Ten Commandments to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai?
4)Can the Holy Spirit go against what God's law of love as defined in the the Ten Commandments?

5) What are the consequences of sin?

6) Why is sin, or unrighteousness, bad or evil, and how are we cleansed of sin.

7) If sin causes us to stumble or fall do we need to be cleansed again?

[Eila]

Now since I have no problem seeing sin (and its consequences) as God and His scriptures and the law shows it to me. However, having said that I will put out some questions to see if anyone has a different line of thought on it:

1) How is something judged/demarcated as sin?



God determines what sin is.



-Who decides what is right and wrong?


God does



-Who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for everybody to do?


God



-If a new technology creates a issue not addressed directly such internet downloading of copyrighted music and movies, what decides if it is wrong morally and a sin?



God decides



-Are there anything else other than the Bible that define for us what God says is righteousness and what is sin?


The Holy Spirit.
2) What are the basic definitions of sin given in the Bible?

- transgression of the new covenant law
- whatever is not of faith
- not doing the right thing
- wrongdoing


3) Was there sin before God spoke the Ten Commandments to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai?

yes


4)Can the Holy Spirit go against what God's law of love as defined in the the Ten Commandments?

The law of love and the 10 commandments are different things. The Holy Spirit does not go against the law of love.


5) What are the consequences of sin?

Spiritual death. Natural consequences of sin may also lead to physical death.


6) Why is sin, or unrighteousness, bad or evil, and how are we cleansed of sin.

Because death results from sin and God declared sin bad. We are cleansed by grace through faith in what Jesus did.



7) If sin causes us to stumble or fall do we need to be cleansed again?

No, our spirit does not die when we sin because our reborn spirit is based on His sinlessness.

[freeindeed2]

Right on! Exactly in line with Scripture and the new covenant. God bless.

[reddogs]

So if God determines what is sin, why do you fight against what he has set forth as his Law of love, the standard that defines what is transgresion or sin.

1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Love God by not putting other gods before his will and turning us from loving him.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020&version=31#fen-NIV-2055a)] me.

Love God by not making false gods of graven images such as idols and bowing and worshiping them instead showing our love to the true God.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Love God by not making vain oaths using His sacred name and showing loving respect of His name.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Love God by taking time to worship him on the day He has giving man as His gift.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Love your father and mother by showing them respectful honor

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Love your fellowman by respecting life

13Thou shalt not kill.

Love your marriage partner by not betraying their trust and your sacred vows

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Love your fellowman by respecting his right of ownership and by not taking what is not rightfully yours

15Thou shalt not steal.

Love your fellowman by being truthful and not lying against him

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Love your fellowman by not envying is his as that can lead to sin against him

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

[Eila]

So if God determines what is sin, why do you fight against what he has set forth as his Law of love, the standard that defines what is transgresion or sin.

1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Love God by not putting other gods before his will and turning us from loving him.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020&version=31#fen-NIV-2055a)] me.

Love God by not making false gods of graven images such as idols and bowing and worshiping them instead showing our love to the true God.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Love God by not making vain oaths using His sacred name and showing loving respect of His name.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Love God by taking time to worship him on the day He has giving man as His gift.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Love your father and mother by showing them respectful honor

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Love your fellowman by respecting life

13Thou shalt not kill.

Love your marriage partner by not betraying their trust and your sacred vows

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Love your fellowman by respecting his right of ownership and by not taking what is not rightfully yours

15Thou shalt not steal.

Love your fellowman by being truthful and not lying against him

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Love your fellowman by not envying is his as that can lead to sin against him

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The 10 commandments are NOT the law of love. They are law of condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3 "7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

If you want to talk about the command to love that is a different story. However, you are taking a law that condemns and putting the command to love in there. We have no more intercourse with the law of the old covenant.

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

[reddogs]

So you say as a excuse to reject His Law of love, but God is the same today as He was at creation, His love as embodied in His Law has not changed......

[Eila]

So you say as a excuse to reject His Law of love, but God is the same today as He was at creation, His love as embodied in His Law has not changed......

Where does the Bible say that the 10 commandments are the law of love? Where does the Bible say His love is embodied in the 10 commandments?

I didn't call the 10 commandments the ministry of death, the Bible says that.

Morality doesn't change, but laws do. Why do you have a problem with the simple command of love? Why do you feel the need to hold on to what was once glorious, but what does now not have glory because of the Spirit? If love is the issue then what is the problem with the commands found in 1 John 3? "3 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

[reddogs]

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40

Love God (the first four of the 10 Commandments) Love thy fellowman (the last six of the 10 Commandments), His love is the embodiment of His commandments even from creation, thats what you dont get...

[Eila]

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40

Love God (the first four of the 10 Commandments) Love thy fellowman (the last six of the 10 Commandments), His love is the embodiment of His commandments even from creation, thats what you dont get...

Those 2 commands were not found in the 10 commandments. Those 2 commands were found in the Book of the Law that you say is done away with. On those 2 commands hung ALL the law AND the prophets.

You didn't answer my questions:

Where does the Bible say that the 10 commandments are the law of love? Where does the Bible say that His love is embodied in the 10 commandments?

[reddogs]

I guess the concept of love is hard for you to discern....

[Eila]

I guess the concept of love is hard for you to discern....

:scratch: I don't understand the concept of love because I am asking you to show where the 10 commandments are the embodiment of God's love? Jesus was the embodiment of God's love!!

Can you show from the Bible that the 10 commandments are the law of love? Can you show from the Bible that the 10 commandments are the embodiment of God's love?

[reddogs]

Matthew 22:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=40&version=9&context=verse)
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[Eila]

Matthew 22:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=40&version=9&context=verse)
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Yes I agree with that, but how does this text show that the 10 commandments are the embodiement of His love? A command for us to love doesn't show His love, but shows love is important to Him.

Those 2 commands summed up the entire law and prophets.

[reddogs]

When the bride says I love you, she doesnt have to say well if I help you pick out the wedding suit that is different form of the same love, it goes without saying...

[Eila]

When the bride says I love you, she doesnt have to say well if I help you pick out the wedding suit that is different form of the same love, it goes without saying...

Sorry, I don't get the analogy.

1 John 4 says "9In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.
10In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins."

The Bible clearly says that His love was manifested in sending Jesus.

[reddogs]

The Father and His Son Jesus Christ are one, so is their Law of love as it comes from the same source:

John 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The 'manifistation' of the Law of love may be different, but the source and purpose are the same, it is the same love as that from creation.

[Eila]

The Father and His Son Jesus Christ are one, so is their Law of love as it comes from the same source:

John 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The 'manifistation' of the Law of love may be different, but the source and purpose are the same, it is the same love as that from creation.

These commandments in John 15 are not the 10 commandments. Jesus defined what He was commanding in that chapter.

"17This is what I command you: that you love one another."

[reddogs]

That is exactly what God is commanding in His Law, Love God and Love one another....

[Eila]

That is exactly what God is commanding in His Law, Love God and Love one another....

The commands to love God and love one another were found in the Book of the Law.

"9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another."

This is clearly not referring to the 10 commandments. Verse 9 shows how we love God now - because He first loved us.

[Cribstyl]

Now since I have no problem seeing sin (and its consequences) as God and His scriptures and the law shows it to me. However, having said that I will put out some questions to see if anyone has a different line of thought on it:
You dont?:doh: No further comments:sorry:

2) What are the basic definitions of sin given in the Bible?

Not to throw a rock in SDA theory, but "transgression of the Law" is not a definition, it is one of many explanation of what sin is but not the word "sin". The word "sin" in Hebrew is chatta'ah {khat-taw-aw'} one definition is "to miss"
In greek Sin is "hamartia" some definitions are, to miss the mark", "to err", "to be mistaken"


3) Was there sin before God spoke the Ten Commandments to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai?

We all know that Adam first sinned. So your series of questions are a ploy to contradict Rom5:13 and implant the Law given before Adam Sinned. (nice trick)

Rm5:13for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



4)Can the Holy Spirit go against what God's law of love as defined in the the Ten Commandments?
Twisted theology that warrant only a:sigh:

5) What are the consequences of sin?
The wage of sin is death

6) Why is sin, or unrighteousness, bad or evil, and how are we cleansed of sin. :doh:( Aha, Now, you use words that trully defines sin.) We were created in God image, so we are called to be Holy. We are made clean by the blood of Jesus Christ.


7) If sin causes us to stumble or fall do we need to be cleansed again?

the answer is Yes and texts proves it;
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

CRIB

[reddogs]

So after you are made clean by His blood, why do you continue sinning and stay with iniquity and nothing is changed?

[Eila]

So after you are made clean by His blood, why do you continue sinning and stay with iniquity and nothing is changed?

Everything is changed!

Colossians 1 "12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins."

It's all about what He did. It's all about His tremendous love for us.

Maturity is a process. Redemption is not.

And if someone sins we have Someone who stands before the Father and advocates for us because His blood took away all our sins - past, present, and future.

1 John 2 " 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

He paid the price for the sins of all mankind in all times. The only way to accept that payment is to accept Jesus. You can stand before the Father with your own righteousness or with Jesus'.

1 Corinthians 1 "30He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.""

Reddogs, at what point does Jesus become your righteousness?

[Cribstyl]

So after you are made clean by His blood, why do you continue sinning and stay with iniquity and nothing is changed?

Gal 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal002.html#21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Questions dont always aticulate the word of God. You have a motive to reason that" 9 of 10 is not 10 of 10"

If you think about it, most christians have no trouble keeping 9 of the 10 as SDA say "we have trouble with the 4th."

Well, The same God who gave Moses the ten came and offically gaves gentiles only Two commandments.

Faith is all about Christ.com
Christ's commandent #1 teaches us How to Love God through believing in His Son thus fulfilling ten.com #1-4.....and Christ.com #2, is to love our neighbors, which is 10.com #5-10

Faith is, in who is Jesus Christ and what He has done for us by His life, death and ressurection. Our response must be "I believe". Jesus is our sabbath. Faith fulfills what the COI had to do to prove they worshipped the creator. That's why christains in some text are told to love their neighbors, because "being in Christ" is proof of who God and His Son are.
We dont have to prove who the creator is, when we believe who His Son is.

He deligently taught us so many things epecially how to pray.

Why would He nor His apostle introduce the gentiles to the Sabbath if we're to keep that commandment?

We have scripture on these arguments showing that those under the Law are actually rejecting the blood of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal002.html#21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

[freeindeed2]

So after you are made clean by His blood, why do you continue sinning and stay with iniquity and nothing is changed?
By this question are you implying that you're keeping, at LEAST, the 10 commandments perfectly?

If not, why do you continue to lift up what condemns you?

[Jon0388g]

Double post.

[Jon0388g]

No, our spirit does not die when we sin because our reborn spirit is based on His sinlessness.

Hi Eila,

I find this statement interesting. Have you got any Scriptural backing for it?

Also, does this mean that a newly born spirit can never "die" or fall away from God?? In a word....thanks.

Jon

[Jon0388g]

The 10 commandments are NOT the law of love. They are law of condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3 "7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Eila, I think your view is a little unbalanced. Nobody is questioning Scripture, and the above quote is valid.

But, it is obvious that you have an issue with the Ten Commandments being embodied with the love of God. You turn to the passage in 2 Corinthians every time, to cast the Law in a negative light.

Yes, the law is a 'ministry of death.' But, elsewhere, we find that this same law is termed:

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

James references the two of the Decalogue to illustrate his point. But, he refers to the command "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" as the "royal" law. If you love your neighbour, you are fulfilling the royal law, and the Ten Commandments, because you will not murder, or commit adultery, if you love.


The passage in 2 Corinthians confirms that the Decalogue is a ministry of death - to those who are under Law. But, are saved Christians under Law? "We are not under Law, but under grace." We stand on the law when we accept Jesus, His grace is sufficient. Is the Law abolished? No.

By casting the Decalogue in a negative light, you contradict Romans:

"Therefore, did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful." Romans 7:13

I think it is dangerous to bang on about the Law being a ministry of death. That verse does not imply what you take it to imply. Romans 7:13 explains to you what it means. Furthermore, David had it spot on:

"I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8

Jon

[Cribstyl]

Yes, the law is a 'ministry of death.' But, elsewhere, we find that this same law is termed:

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

James references the two of the Decalogue to illustrate his point. But, he refers to the command "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" as the "royal" law. If you love your neighbour, you are fulfilling the royal law, and the Ten Commandments, because you will not murder, or commit adultery, if you love.
Jon

Jesus, John Paul and James reemphasis these two commands as commandments of Christ. The fact that they were part of the old, doesn't mean that these two commandment are not commanded in the new covenant.

Your argument is just an argument, it does not bring any the 10.com into the 2.com


Happy Sabbath

[Eila]

Hi Eila,

I find this statement interesting. Have you got any Scriptural backing for it?

Yes, our spirit is what is reborn. When we are born again our physical body does not change.

John 3 says "5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "

This text says that the spirit is what is born again.

1 Peter 1 "23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"

We were born again and our spirit is not corruptible, but incorruptible.

Also in 1 John 3 it says "5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

The seed is the life and righteousness given to us by God. No sin can kill this seed because this seed is based on Jesus' righteousness. In Him there is no sin and that is where we reside. Does that mean I will never do anything wrong? No, it means that this seed is not destroyed by my sin. My sin was forever taken away.

Phillipians 3 says "8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;"

The only righteousness we can have when we stand before God is our own or Jesus'. Which would you prefer?


Colossians 3 "1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

1 Corinthians 1 "29so that no human being[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201%20;&version=47;#fen-ESV-28373c)] might boast in the presence of God. 30He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

He is the source of our life! Our spirits were dead, but in Christ they are made alive! This alive spirit is based on Jesus' perfectness.

Romans 8 "10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you."

He dwells in us and our spirit is made alive because of His righteousness.

Ephesians 2 "1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

We were made alive together with Christ. We received His perfectness, His righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5 " 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. "

Jesus died for everyone and took care of the sin problem for everyone! Yet, some people are still dead in their sins because life is only available by grace through faith in Jesus.

"16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

We are a new creation in Christ! We were dead, but now we are alive!! Not only are we alive, but we are a brand new creation in Him.

"18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

He was made to be sin for us so that we could have His righteousness!! Praise God :clap:


Also, does this mean that a newly born spirit can never "die" or fall away from God?? In a word....thanks.

Jon

In a one word answer - no

In a longer version :) You cannot lose your salvation by sinning because you don't attain your salvation by doing good works. You can only lose your salvation by no longer believing in Jesus as your Savior.

Colossians 1 "19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister."

Salvation is all only received by grace through faith and is only lost when we do not continue to have faith in Him.

[Eila]

But, it is obvious that you have an issue with the Ten Commandments being embodied with the love of God. You turn to the passage in 2 Corinthians every time, to cast the Law in a negative light.

Yes, the law is a 'ministry of death.' But, elsewhere, we find that this same law is termed:

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

James references the two of the Decalogue to illustrate his point. But, he refers to the command "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" as the "royal" law. If you love your neighbour, you are fulfilling the royal law, and the Ten Commandments, because you will not murder, or commit adultery, if you love.


Yes, I think looking at James is a good thing to do. I think many people assume the law of liberty is talking about the 10 commandments.

James 2

"8If indeed you [really] fulfill the royal Law in accordance with the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as [you love] yourself, you do well."

The royal law here the command repeated all throughout the new covenant. This is the new covenant law - to love one another.

"9But if you show servile regard (prejudice, favoritism) for people, you commit sin and are rebuked and convicted by the Law as violators and offenders.
10For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of all of it.
11For He Who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become guilty of transgressing the [whole] Law."

We see that if you break one part of the law you are guilty of the whole thing. The law of sin and death convicts you and sentences you to death.

"12So speak and so act as [people should] who are to be judged under the law of liberty [the moral instruction given by Christ, especially about love]."

The law of liberty is not the law that condemns. Condemnation and liberty cannot coexist. The law in the new covenant is to love.

Romans 8 says " 2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death."

We are freed from the law of sin and death.


The passage in 2 Corinthians confirms that the Decalogue is a ministry of death - to those who are under Law. But, are saved Christians under Law? "We are not under Law, but under grace." We stand on the law when we accept Jesus, His grace is sufficient. Is the Law abolished? No.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? Are you saying that your position moved from "under" the law to "on top" of the law?



By casting the Decalogue in a negative light, you contradict Romans:

"Therefore, did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful." Romans 7:13

I think it is dangerous to bang on about the Law being a ministry of death. That verse does not imply what you take it to imply. Romans 7:13 explains to you what it means. Furthermore, David had it spot on:

"I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8

Jon

The Bible does say the law is a ministry of death. Not only that but Paul warns about the law earlier in Romans 7.

Romans 7 "1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, [B]you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Paul here says that those who seek to be under the law and have faith in Jesus are committing adultery! We must become dead to the law so we can be married to Him. If we are dead to the law we are not under it or on top of it.

Notice the correlation of these verses:

LAW - Romans 7 "20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."

FAITH - Galatians 2 "20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

We must die to the law in order to live to God.

Galatians 2 "19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."

[ricker]

Salvation is all only received by grace through faith and is only lost when we do not continue to have faith in Him.

Thank you so much Eila for sharing those powerful scriptures with us. "If anybody comes and tells you the Good News and it doesn't sound like good news, then it's not the Good News." - Michael D. Bridges

[sumofox]

You dont?:doh: No further comments:sorry:

Not to throw a rock in SDA theory, but "transgression of the Law" is not a definition, it is one of many explanation of what sin is but not the word "sin". The word "sin" in Hebrew is chatta'ah {khat-taw-aw'} one definition is "to miss"
In greek Sin is "hamartia" some definitions are, to miss the mark", "to err", "to be mistaken"




We all know that Adam first sinned. So your series of questions are a ploy to contradict Rom5:13 and implant the Law given before Adam Sinned. (nice trick)

Rm5:13for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.




Twisted theology that warrant only a:sigh:


The wage of sin is death

:doh:( Aha, Now, you use words that trully defines sin.) We were created in God image, so we are called to be Holy. We are made clean by the blood of Jesus Christ.

the answer is Yes and texts proves it;
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

CRIB

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
You forgot to read the above bible text Romans 5:12 ;)

[mpossoff]

Sin is missing the target in Hebrew.

What target?

The law shows us when we miss the mark.

There is no other places in scripture that says...'And the L-rd said to Moses speak to the children of Israel and say'

Marc

[Cribstyl]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
You forgot to read the above bible text Romans 5:12 ;)
Welcome to the forum................ Fact is, Paul explains in verse 12, how sin began in humanity, "through one man," "(Adam)"

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&translation=esvp&x=11&y=5#)so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Text convey that Law came to illustrate what sin is, making it more sinful. So our need for God's mercy shows even greater.


In Peace
CRIB

[mpossoff]

Text convey that Law came to illustrate what sin is, making it more sinful. So our need for God's mercy shows even greater.

Amen. So the law isn't too bad after all.

Marc

[Cribstyl]

Amen. So the law isn't too bad after all.

Marc

Face it Marc, You know, and I know, that the law does'nt itemize sins that we've been commiting in our lives. By the law we're pretty good...but text say we're not judged by the Law Marc?
The law take up no issues next to that redneck flag or that centerfold. The law takes up no issue with surfing da net. No issue with a keg of beer this weekend.

Ask yourself Marc, What laws does God have written on your heart?

Marc for me, it's about how to treat my wife. How to be faithfully attend church services. How to be a better dad. It about trusting God rather than my ability to get justice. It's about getting to work on time. It's about tithing...(sheeze, that enough about me:o )

Why would God write laws on my heart laws that describes sin that I dont have trouble with?:doh: Is my God so impersonal that one size fit's all?:scratch:


CRIB

[mpossoff]

Face it Marc, You know, and I know, that the law does'nt itemize sins that we've been commiting in our lives. By the law we're pretty good...but text say we're not judged by the Law Marc?
The law take up no issues next to that redneck flag or that centerfold. The law takes up no issue with surfing da net. No issue with a keg of beer this weekend.

Ask yourself Marc, What laws does God have written on your heart?

Marc for me, it's about how to treat my wife. How to be faithfully attend church services. How to be a better dad. It about trusting God rather than my ability to get justice. It's about getting to work on time. It's about tithing...(sheeze, that enough about me:o )

Why would God write laws on my heart laws that describes sin that I dont have trouble with?:doh: Is my God so impersonal that one size fit's all?:scratch:

Do you find it hard to accept that G-d has standards we are to live by and they are written in our bibles?

Or do you believe in a 'free spirit' life?

Note not all spirits are from G-d.

Marc

[Cribstyl]

Do you find it hard to accept that G-d has standards we are to live by and they are written in our bibles?

Or do you believe in a 'free spirit' life?

Note not all spirits are from G-d.

Marc

Read it again Marc, God's standard is Holiness because He is Holy. By creating man in His image and after His likeness, this means that we were Holy until sin came into the world.


Moses taught righteousness by keeping the Law.
Christians are taught righteousness by faith.

Faith is not lawlessness Marc, it is knowing a very present God that forgives sins and teaches love.

CRIB

[mpossoff]

God's standard is Holiness because He is Holy

I agree.

Where do we find these standards?

Are they written so we know what it is?

Or do we go about life with a 'free spirit' or 'spirit of liberty?

How do we know if the Spirit is leading us in the right direction because not all spirits are from G-d.

That's why we have Bibles.

There is such thing as faith that is lawlessness.

Just because you have Jesus does that mean you can be lawless?

Marc

[Cribstyl]

I agree.

Where do we find these standards?

Are they written so we know what it is?


Well Marc, when we read the first 10 chapters of the bible, the standards you're presenting are not an issue. If they are, post the texts. When do we first hear about The Law and to whom was it first given?


Gen 6:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&translation=kjv&x=12&y=14#)And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Gen 6:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&translation=kjv&x=12&y=14#)The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Gen 6:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&translation=kjv&x=12&y=14#)And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Gen 6:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&translation=kjv&x=12&y=14#)And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The reason for posting these texts, is to show what is written about sin in order to investigate if breaking a Law is implied.

Texts mentions that men were, wicked, evil thoughts continually, corrupt, and violent.
Marc, No law is mentioned as given or broken thus far.
Why should we not accept Moses words as sequential truths that God has provided for our learning about the history of God and man?
--------------------------------------------------

Or do we go about life with a 'free spirit' or 'spirit of liberty?


Hmmm, "the spirit of liberty" , liberty is from the law, not from sin Marc.....Sin is never free, the wages of sin has alway been death from the beginning before any law was given.
When we put our eyes on the Law, we're telling God that our effort to keep these commandments will helped to save us and therefore we earn salvation.

When we put our eyes on faith, we're telling God that we believe Jesus has died for our sin and raised from the dead and we're raised with Him, to bring a Holy Sacrifice to God. No longer living as if this world and it's system is our priority, but rather the commandments that Christ taught, to love God and our neighbors.

How do we know if the Spirit is leading us in the right direction because not all spirits are from G-d.
We know that the spirit speaks only about Christ and what His resurrection mean to us. The spirit opens our eye to the written word of God. Those who come to you preaching the Law is not sent by Christ nor by the Holy Spirit or the apostles.
Jhn 14:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#26) — But the Comforter (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/14/26.html#the_Comforter_1), [which is] the Holy Ghost (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/14/26.html#Holy_Ghost_2), whom (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/14/26.html#whom_3) the Father will send in my name, he (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/14/26.html#he_4) shall teach you all things, and bring (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/14/26.html#bring_5) all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.




That's why we have Bibles.

You can bet you life on it:thumbsup:


There is such thing as faith that is lawlessness.

Just because you have Jesus does that mean you can be lawless?

Why should we defend bogus arguments, text says we're not under the Law but does not mean we should sin?



CRIB

[mpossoff]

Marc, No law is mentioned as given or broken thus far.There had to be law.

How did Abel and Caan know about offerings to G-d?

The reason for posting these texts, is to show what is written about sin in order to investigate if breaking a Law is implied. Are you saying that G-d just let man run rampad and then decided to destroy all the earth? That there were no 'rules' to live according to His standards?

That's like raising your children with no rules and then when they become so bad you punish them.

People knew in the texts you posted what sin was.

Our G-d isn't that way, to impose punishment without cause and especially to know why.

Marc

[Cribstyl]

There had to be law.

How did Abel and Caan know about offerings to G-d?


Seems to me that you're reasoning far away what is written.




Gen 4:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 4:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=8&y=13#)And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

In Gen 4:3 Moses wrote; "In the process of time it came to pass.." does not imply periodic offerings, but rather a singular offering that happened in the past.

If Cain and Abel were commanded to give a certain sacrifice there is no evidence of it. They did not give the same offering. The fact that God chose one over the other proves that He did not command them of what to bring. God pointed out that Cain was angry because he did not give his best effort and sin was about to happen, rather than saying you sinned by not bringing the right sacrifice.



Are you saying that G-d just let man run rampad and then decided to destroy all the earth? That there were no 'rules' to live according to His standards?

That's like raising your children with no rules and then when they become so bad you punish them.

People knew in the texts you posted what sin was.

Our G-d isn't that way, to impose punishment without cause and especially to know why.

Marc
TBC

[mpossoff]

My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?

God pointed out that Cain was angry because he did not give his best effort and sin was about to happen, rather than saying you sinned by not bringing the right sacrifice.

Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc

[mpossoff]

Why should we defend bogus arguments, text says we're not under the Law but does not mean we should sin?

Actually text doesn't say we are not under the law. Text says we are not under the written ordinances that were against us.

What was nailed to the tree?

Marc

[djconklin]

My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?



Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc
Excellant questions!

Note that before Cain killed Abel God spoke to him and said that "sin lieth at the door"--and yet Cain didn't have to ask what is sin? They knew!

[Cribstyl]

Excellant questions!

Note that before Cain killed Abel God spoke to him and said that "sin lieth at the door"--and yet Cain didn't have to ask what is sin? They knew!

Knew what?
God was showing Cain exactly where unrighteousness (SIN)begins, but you want to teach "sin is transgression of God's Law" 1John 3:4

The truth is that, man was created in the image of God, perfect and Holy, Sin by definition is to miss that mark.

Some people go as far as to say, Cain sinned by not offering the right sacrifice.

So why did God not say sin was at your door when you brought the wrong sacrifice:confused: (igotQ2) But rather mentioned jelousy anger the crept up toward his brother?

In God's forknowlege the commandment that He gave to Adam that led to death was broken, to imply or say that God gave them ceromonial and other laws in unscriptual.
Some people's biblical reference say more than Moses has to say about creation and bible history.
Is the prophetic word concerning the seed of woman Gen3:15 surrounded by lack of information by Moses from God, then the bible does not contain all we need to know about God.
Did the serpent give Eve the fruit or did Eve pick the fruit?

When people teach by questions rather than what sayeth the word of God they establish themselve "more than a prophet or an apostle.



Questions does not always establish truth, this has lead to contradiction and division of churches.

[djconklin]

Knew what?
God was showing Cain exactly where unrighteousness (SIN)begins, but you want to teach "sin is transgression of God's Law" 1John 3:4

Unrighteousness is to trangress against the image of god in whose image we have been made. The 10C simply delineate in a concrete form where and when we have sinned.

In God's forknowlege the commandment that He gave to Adam that led to death was broken, to imply or say that God gave them ceromonial and other laws in unscriptual.

I have never met these creatures (some might say mythical) who say such things. Could you give me the name and address of one?

No one that I know of has ever argued that God gave Adam the ceremonial, food and theocratic laws in the Garden of Eden. Now, after they sinned a sacrifice had to be made--so God told them exactly what to do--now say, 20 years later Cain and Abrel go to make a sacrifice. Would it really be fair of God to condemn Cain for making the wrong sacrifice if he knew nothing about what constituted the correct sacrifice? Does it really make sense to say that sin entered the world when Adam and Eve sinned but no one knew that we should kill, steal, and rape etc. till the 10C were written on stone? If that was the case, then Cain wasn't quilty of anything. He did not sin and didn't have to worry that someone, somewhere would try to kill him. How did Pharoah and others know that it was wrong to have sexual relations whith Sarah? Was it ONLY because God told them in a dream? How come in over 100 languages the name of the seventh day fo the week is "sabbath"? Could it possibly be that they knew this at the time the languages were made at the Tower of Babel? If the Sabbath wasn't known till the 10C were written on stone, then how come they knew about it a month beforehand and didn't ask how to keep it and what it meant?

[djconklin]

Did the serpent give Eve the fruit or did Eve pick the fruit?

When people teach by questions rather than what sayeth the word of God they establish themselve "more than a prophet or an apostle.

Questions does not always establish truth, this has lead to contradiction and division of churches.

You asked a question--was that to create divisions to to find the truth?!? Christ would be asked a question and sometimes He would respond by asking question--are you saying that was trying to create divisions and wasn't seeking the truth? He was trying to get His listeners to think it through. It is called the Socratic method. It has nothing to do with "establish" one's self as being more than a prophet or an apostle--it's called following in the Master's footsteps vs the traditions and teachings of man.

On your question: we have no precise bibilical evidence either way. However, in Gen 3:6 is says "she took the fruit thereof." We would tend to assume that this means that she picked the fruit off the tree.

[zspeedyrabit]

Sin is rebellion against a Holy God.

[Cribstyl]

Actually text doesn't say we are not under the law. Text says we are not under the written ordinances that were against us.

What was nailed to the tree?

Marc

The word of God is not subjected to your intepretation, it's subjected to your understanding:wave:

Rom 6:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=14&version=KJV#14)For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=15&version=KJV#15)What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 9:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=9&v=21&version=KJV#21)To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[/URL][URL="http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=3&v=10&version=KJV#10"]Gal 3:10 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=14&v=34&version=KJV#34)For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 4:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=4&v=21&version=KJV#21)Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:18 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=5&v=18&version=KJV#18)But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Which scripture do you want to argue against.

CRIB

[Cribstyl]

My point was how did they come up the idea to make offerings to G-d?

Did they come up with it on their own?

Or did someone tell them that was the 'protocol'?

They couldn't have got the idea out of nowhere?



Right Cain didn't give his best effort but it's apparent that they both gave offerings. How did they know to give offerings unto G-d?

How did everyone know up to Exodus/Leviticus the 'protocol' so to speak?

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation

How did Noah know what righteousness was?

Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

How did Noah know to offer burnt offerings?

Marc

Crafty questions does not render understanding of what is written. They give rise to false doctrines that contradict God's word through the prophets.

The bible records when man began to call on God.
Gen 4:26 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=4&v=26&version=KJV#26)And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


and also that Enoch was a preacher against ungodliness..(sin)
Jud 1:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jud&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=8&y=7#)And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jud&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=8&y=7#)To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We can read that God judged the world in Noah's day because of evil deeds rather than Sabbaths and ceromonies which many text conveys began with the Children of Israel, as "it is written" by Moses


CRIB

[Cribstyl]

:idea:

[PattyOfurniture]

The word of God is not subjected to your intepretation, it's subjected to your understanding:wave:

Rom 6:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=14&version=KJV#14)For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:15 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=15&version=KJV#15)What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 9:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=9&v=21&version=KJV#21)To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Gal 3:10 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=3&v=10&version=KJV#10)For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 4:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=4&v=21&version=KJV#21)Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 5:18 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gal&c=5&v=18&version=KJV#18)But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Which scripture do you want to argue against.

CRIB
I used to somehow miss(*coughs,nervous twitch) those verses. I'm glad i didn't ' go all the way and emasculate' myself...

[Cribstyl]

I used to somehow miss(*coughs,nervous twitch) those verses. I'm glad i didn't ' go all the way and emasculate' myself...

Praise God for understanding....... A lot of us get preached to, but we wont hear with our heart and digest. (we're too busy trying to teach):preach:
We need God's word desperately that we may not easily sin against Him.


God bless

CRIB

[Josephcanuck]

online Baptists are attacking everything under the sun from other Christians to Spiritualist groups. Jews, Moslems, gays etc..You name it.
According to these guys everyone is going to hell.
Who defines sin? Do we or does God? How much of the old laws are applicable today?
Because of the restraints of the forum i cannot post a link but if you google baptists for brownback you will find them. They are located at Wordpress.
The problem I have with groups like this is that there is clear support for them. These folks like the Fred Phelps Baptists are spewing hate with every breath and no one does anything (or so it seems) to try and stop the regurgitated mess. I am a Baptist but I feel like the original and my voice is out there in the wilderness not being heard. We all get tainted when folks like these get to have too much say in things. I don't profess to tolerate gay people so I am not going to feed you a line here but I also do not tolerate people assigning themselves the role of the Almighty as these have done.

[PattyOfurniture]

online Baptists are attacking everything under the sun from other Christians to Spiritualist groups. Jews, Moslems, gays etc..You name it.
According to these guys everyone is going to hell.
Who defines sin? Do we or does God? How much of the old laws are applicable today?
Because of the restraints of the forum i cannot post a link but if you google baptists for brownback you will find them. They are located at Wordpress.
The problem I have with groups like this is that there is clear support for them. These folks like the Fred Phelps Baptists are spewing hate with every breath and no one does anything (or so it seems) to try and stop the regurgitated mess. I am a Baptist but I feel like the original and my voice is out there in the wilderness not being heard. We all get tainted when folks like these get to have too much say in things. I don't profess to tolerate gay people so I am not going to feed you a line here but I also do not tolerate people assigning themselves the role of the Almighty as these have done.
Fred Phelps.is not exactly your Garden-variety Baptist I'm of the opinion Today we need someone somewhere between that big lovable knucklehead Fred Phelps and Joel Osteen......someone like perhaps Jesus Christ?....lol

[The Cheat]

Now since I have no problem seeing sin (and its consequences) as God and His scriptures and the law shows it to me. However, having said that I will put out some questions to see if anyone has a different line of thought on it:

1) How is something judged/demarcated as sin?

By God.

-Who decides what is right and wrong?

God.

-Who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for everybody to do?

God.

-If a new technology creates a issue not addressed directly such internet downloading of copyrighted music and movies, what decides if it is wrong morally and a sin?

God. He didn't leave any doors open. Stealing is stealing-- always.

-Are there anything else other than the Bible that define for us what God says is righteousness and what is sin? 2) What are the basic definitions of sin given in the Bible?

Disobedience of God.

3) Was there sin before God spoke the Ten Commandments to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai?

Yes, Adam and Eve, remember?

4)Can the Holy Spirit go against what God's law of love as defined in the the Ten Commandments?

No, the Holy Spirit is God. God can't sin.

5) What are the consequences of sin?

Death-- both the second and first-- the lake of fire is the second death.

6) Why is sin, or unrighteousness, bad or evil, and how are we cleansed of sin.

Sin is evil because it is contrary to God, and God is good. We are cleansed of sin only if we believe in Jesus Christ, God's sacrifice to save us from eternal damnation.

7) If sin causes us to stumble or fall do we need to be cleansed again?

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. When a believer sins, he sins unintentionally, for it is contrary to his new nature to sin. There is no need to be re-saved or whatever it is you would refer to that as. He who endures to the end will be saved.