Do This in Remembrance of Me [open]

[Bon]

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.


Is this how you will celebrate Passover?

On which night will you hold your Passover meal this year, 2007?
On the 13th at sunset, or the 14th, at sunset?

I know the scriptural command is the 14th day of nisan at sundown....but what is this new command, and how do you incorporate it into your celebration?

I'm looking for opinions, as the Bible seems quite hazy to me in this area, and many messianic sites have varying interpretations of how all the scriptures fit together.

Thank you.

[visionary]

Disciples find an even deeper meaning in the bread. Yeshua took the matzah bread at his Last Seder and said, "This is my body which is for you, do this in remembrance of me." The Unleavened Bread teaches us about the Body of the Yeshua! If we examine a piece of matzah, we will see that it has three peculiar attributes.

1. It is pierced.

2. It is striped.

3. It is flat.

Just as the Unleavened Bread is pierced, Messiah's body was pierced. Just as the the Unleavened Bread is striped, his body was striped and wounded, and just as the unleavened bread is without yeast, making it flat, he was without sin. We find it written in the Scriptures, "They will look upon the one they have pierced," (Zecheriah 12:10) and again, "By his stripes we are healed," (Isaiah 53:5) and again, "Yet he was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

I am also still fuzzy on the time frame.

[Charles YTK]

We have our Seder on the evening of the 14th. And we make it more about the prophetic nature of how the Passover looked forward to and was literally fulfilled in Messiah as our Lamb of God and as the one who made the New Covenant sealed in his own blood. Our Hagadah is very Messiah centered.

[mpossoff]

We have ours on the evening of the 14th too.

We make it literal and prophetic.

Literal because it really did happen, right? Didn't the death angel Passover? I'm a physical Jew so the literal means alot to me as well as the...

Prophetic because Messiah is our Lamb from G-d. The Ultimate sacrifice?

[Torah]

It is my opinion that Yeshua, in order to die just before the night or start of the 14, would have had to have his Sader on the night or beginning of the 13. In other words if it was to happen today: Yeshua would have had his Sader Sunday night. Taken on Sunday night after his Sader. Up all night with his trial, and on Monday morning nailed to the tree. In the afternoon on Monday he would have died about the same time the Priest would have killed the last sacrifice for all of Israel. They would have had to take the body down before nightfall of Monday night, and Tuesday / 14 started.

We always have 3 Sander’s, [1] when we think Yeshua did his, the 13 and this is done with fellow Messianic believers. [2] The 14 we do with Just my family. [3] The 15 we do as an outreach for Christians who has never had this privilege. This year were having our outreach Sader on Sunday night, and our Family one on Monday night 14.

[Bananna]

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.


Is this how you will celebrate Passover?

On which night will you hold your Passover meal this year, 2007?
On the 13th at sunset, or the 14th, at sunset?

I know the scriptural command is the 14th day of nisan at sundown....but what is this new command, and how do you incorporate it into your celebration?

I'm looking for opinions, as the Bible seems quite hazy to me in this area, and many messianic sites have varying interpretations of how all the scriptures fit together.

Thank you.

Actually as often as we eat and drink and bless the bread and te wine we do so in rememberance of our Lord and is payment for us.
bananna

[Charles YTK]

It is my opinion that Yeshua, in order to die just before the night or start of the 14, would have had to have his Sader on the night or beginning of the 13. In other words if it was to happen today: Yeshua would have had his Sader Sunday night. Taken on Sunday night after his Sader. Up all night with his trial, and on Monday morning nailed to the tree. In the afternoon on Monday he would have died about the same time the Priest would have killed the last sacrifice for all of Israel. They would have had to take the body down before nightfall of Monday night, and Tuesday / 14 started.


I have done a lot of research on this in the past. There were two passovers observed in Jerusalem at the time, one by the Escenes who were the former Zadokites of the temple, and then the Temple authority (The same that killed Messiah). The Escene passover was fixed to be on Tuesday evening the 14th. (Has to do with the way they calculated their calendar) And then in the year of the crucifixion, the temple authority calculated their month such that the 14th for them fell on Wed. evening.

So Yeshua has his seder with the Escenes on Tuesday evening and moves to the MT. of Olives in the temple disctrict where he is arrested, and is crucified later that afternoon, as the Lambs are killed in the temple. He dies at 3 PM, and is quickly placed in a tomb before the high sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread begins, at sundown (beginning of the 15th. which is a sabbath) So he is in the tomb Thurs, Fri, Sabbath, and then is resurreted some time before dawn on the first day of the week. 3 days and 3 nights.

In this view all the Gospels agree as does the historical information. What does not line up is Church tradition. That is their problem. ;)

[stone]

Mt 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

***

why break his body?

[Bon]

I have done a lot of research on this in the past. There were two passovers observed in Jerusalem at the time, one by the Escenes who were the former Zadokites of the temple, and then the Temple authority (The same that killed Messiah). The Escene passover was fixed to be on Tuesday evening the 14th. (Has to do with the way they calculated their calendar) And then in the year of the crucifixion, the temple authority calculated their month such that the 14th for them fell on Wed. evening.

So Yeshua has his seder with the Escenes on Tuesday evening and moves to the MT. of Olives in the temple disctrict where he is arrested, and is crucified later that afternoon, as the Lambs are killed in the temple. He dies at 3 PM, and is quickly placed in a tomb before the high sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread begins, at sundown (beginning of the 15th. which is a sabbath) So he is in the tomb Thurs, Fri, Sabbath, and then is resurreted some time before dawn on the first day of the week. 3 days and 3 nights.

In this view all the Gospels agree as does the historical information. What does not line up is Church tradition. That is their problem. ;)


Charles, I have heard this too, and I've read it on various MJ sites...but where did you find your historical evidence for this dual Passover date?

Yeshua would have kept the Passover at precisely the correct time if it was a Passover Seder He was keeping with His disciples...and that would mean that to this day, the Jews are keeping passover a day too late according to God's command.

Personally, I need more proof for this two calendar conclusion.
Would you mind sharing your research with us please?

With thanks. Bon

[HadassahSukkot]

personally, I keep Pesach on the 14th.

[Charles YTK]

Charles, I have heard this too, and I've read it on various MJ sites...but where did you find your historical evidence for this dual Passover date?

Yeshua would have kept the Passover at precisely the correct time if it was a Passover Seder He was keeping with His disciples...and that would mean that to this day, the Jews are keeping passover a day too late according to God's command.

Personally, I need more proof for this two calendar conclusion.
Would you mind sharing your research with us please?

With thanks. Bon

It comes from a lot of little loose ends. I ran into it through a study on the Escenes. And Josephus mentions the sects practices of holding their own sacrifices which were legal, as they are Levites of the Zadokites and they did so in Jerusalem. They held their own calendar which is different from the Jews of the temple. They both agreed on the evening of the 14th as being the Passover sacrifice, however they differer on how to determine the start of the month (and year) and so there was a difference in this case by one day. The gospel accounts show this difference.

People get a little stressed out about all this because they think that there is only one moment in time when the Passover can be observed. However this is not the case. Even in Torah it allows for a second Passover observance on the 14th of the second month if you missed the first.

The next objection would be, which Passover was correct, the Escene where his Seder was, or the Temple Passover when he was crucified? I think God honors men's obedience from their hearts, so by their conviction I believe God accepted both as legitimate. Why not? They both had good reasons for what they did and they both did their Passover according to the understanding they had. If we look at the temple authority it was totally corrupt. So does God not accept their sacrifices? No, for the sake of the people he honors that. And where would Yeshua be most clearly recognised as the Lamb of God? On the cross at the same moment the lambs are killed, and Quoting Psalm 22.

Another thing to consider is that God might have allowed this difference in calendars to provide a means for Yeshua to observe the Seder with his friends and to initiate the New Covenant and still be able to be crucified on the temple date in fulfillment of the prophetic nature of the scriptures.

Think of this, Yeshua could only come at one point in time and be sacrificed. Yet he fulfilled two festivals at the same time, Passover, which is about our deliverence, and also Atonement which is about our cleansing and purification from all sin. He fulfilled both even though he was only crucified on one of them, Passover. Still he takes that blood into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Heaven and officiates the Atonement sacrifice. How can this be? Because God looks at it differently than we do. He is not a legalist as some of us are. He sees both things accomplished, and that is all that matters. So also with the Passover. We may not like it, but I am sure God accepted it. Remember that in the end, it is the Zadokites who will once again minister in the Millennial Kingdom temple.

I have a lot of stuff but really Tim Hegg who came to the same conclusions that I did (pretty much) has his written up in a nice little package.

Here is the link:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/PassionChronology.pdf

[Henaynei]

Actually as often as we eat and drink and bless the bread and te wine we do so in rememberance of our Lord and is payment for us.
banannawe feel slightly differently about this issue. After reading the related pasages carefully we noticed that the set of barakot are "different from all other" barakot - this time, and this time only, the blessing over the bread is said first and then the blessing over the wine.

This is just one of the numerous reasons, but a good one, we feel "This" is the Pesakh Seder and not the standard meal :):hug:

[jgonz]

We have our Seder on the evening of the 14th. And we make it more about the prophetic nature of how the Passover looked forward to and was literally fulfilled in Messiah as our Lamb of God and as the one who made the New Covenant sealed in his own blood. Our Hagadah is very Messiah centered.

Same here. :thumbsup:

[stone]

Mt 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

***

why break his body?


Mt 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

[Talmidah]

Mt 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. If you all are saying that this was a passover seder, then why were they eating bread as stone highlighted here?





ETA: Nevermind. I just read visionary's post that states that it was actually matzah that was used. Sorry!

[stone]

that word bread came from the king james version, i see its better to use the complete jewish bible for such discusions on these types of topics.

lets see what it reads here:

26 While they were eating, Y-shua took a piece of matzah, made the b'rakhah, broke it, gave it to the talmidim and said, "Take! Eat! This is my body!"


***

he says this is his body and breaks it

[Talmidah]

that word bread came from the king james version, i see its better to use the complete jewish bible for such discusions on these types of topics.

lets see what it reads here:

26 While they were eating, Y-shua took a piece of matzah, made the b'rakhah, broke it, gave it to the talmidim and said, "Take! Eat! This is my body!"


***

he says this is his body and breaks it Oh okay, thank you. So whatever greek word was used in that passage, was incorrectly translated as bread and should have been matzah. That makes more sense.

[Charles YTK]

Oh okay, thank you. So whatever greek word was used in that passage, was incorrectly translated as bread and should have been matzah. That makes more sense.
There is really no doubt of it's being a Passover seder, as it is stated in all the Gospels "they asked Yeshua where should we go to prepare the passover?" and such. And it is the time of the festival of unleavened bread which begins with the Seder. Then when you look at the events of the meal, the blessings over the bread (Matzah) and specific cups fo wine, with the one after the meal being identified as his blood, this is the cup of redemption in the seder, and the dipping of sops, and the singing of the Psalm after the seder. These prove it was a Seder meal. For the Escenes who were a day ahead in their calendar, they have already sacrificed their lambs before that seder meal, while the temple authority of Hasmoneans will not kill their lambs until the next day, when Yeshua is crucified.

The two competing calendars brings light and proof to the Gospels that in the past detractors used to show errors and cast doubt on their authority as scripture.

[MattyJames]

We have ours on the evening of the 14th too.

We make it literal and prophetic.

Literal because it really did happen, right? Didn't the death angel Passover? I'm a physical Jew so the literal means alot to me as well as the...

Prophetic because Messiah is our Lamb from G-d. The Ultimate sacrifice?

Yes, We celebrate very similar. Although - we're not physical Jews. Although I am without doubt we are physical decendents of Israel.(Not sure which tribe)

MJ

[Bon]

that word bread came from the king james version, i see its better to use the complete jewish bible for such discusions on these types of topics.

lets see what it reads here:

26 While they were eating, Y-shua took a piece of matzah, made the b'rakhah, broke it, gave it to the talmidim and said, "Take! Eat! This is my body!"


***

he says this is his body and breaks it


Now this is where part of the confusion lies for me.
The greek rendering for bread in this passage is 'arton' which is just regular bread and not unleavened bread.

Azuma, is unleavened bread.
Arton, is regular bread.

The Gospel account of Yeshua's last meal with His disciples before His death at Matthew 26:26, also renders 'bread' as "ARTON" (or regular bread) and not unleavened.

Anyone have any answers for this?

[Bon]

...and what of the verse in John 13 when the disciples mistook Yeshuas words to mean that Judas should go out and purchase what things they need for the feast?

John 13:27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." 28Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

[Charles YTK]

...and what of the verse in John 13 when the disciples mistook Yeshuas words to mean that Judas should go out and purchase what things they need for the feast?

John 13:27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." 28Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
With the Passover begins the feast of unleavened bread. It lasts for 7 days. Perhpas the thought was that they would need provisions of Matzah for the week, or perhaps a gift to the poor.

John seems to be aware of the two different calendars as he mentions "The Passover" and in other places says "The Passover of the Jews" as if they are two separate and distinct events. And they would be. Especially when we consider that the Apostle John was previously a disciple of John the Baptizer who seems to have been an Escene as is agreed by almost all scholars.

We can't use the questionable translation for bread, to out weigh the many very direct verses that say that the disciples were to "prepare the passover", or "make ready the passover", or find the "man who had prepared the passover". And we must not forget that the word Passover comes from Pesach, which is a reference to the lamb and not to a week long festival. You could not observe, Keep, eat, the Passover with out the sacrifice of the lamb, that is what Pesach is, the lamb of sacrifice. Passover is not even a day long, event, not a special holiday or holy day, it is a sacrifice. It takes place between the evenigs on the 14th of Nisan. It is a 3 hour long window when the sacrifice takes place between 3 PM and 6 PM. That day is not even a Sabbath. It is the 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread which is the Sabbath. And since it all begins with the sacrifice and then the seder that follows and runs into the ext day, which is the Sabbath of unleavened bread, it is necessary that the Lamb be eaten with unleavened bread.

[Bon]

With the Passover begins the feast of unleavened bread. It lasts for 7 days. Perhpas the thought was that they would need provisions of Matzah for the week, or perhaps a gift to the poor.

John seems to be aware of the two different calendars as he mentions "The Passover" and in other places says "The Passover of the Jews" as if they are two separate and distinct events. And they would be. Especially when we consider that the Apostle John was previously a disciple of John the Baptizer who seems to have been an Escene as is agreed by almost all scholars.

We can't use the questionable translation for bread, to out weigh the many very direct verses that say that the disciples were to "prepare the passover", or "make ready the passover", or find the "man who had prepared the passover". And we must not forget that the word Passover comes from Pesach, which is a reference to the lamb and not to a week long festival. You could not observe, Keep, eat, the Passover with out the sacrifice of the lamb, that is what Pesach is, the lamb of sacrifice. Passover is not even a day long, event, not a special holiday or holy day, it is a sacrifice. It takes place between the evenigs on the 14th of Nisan. It is a 3 hour long window when the sacrifice takes place between 3 PM and 6 PM. That day is not even a Sabbath. It is the 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread which is the Sabbath. And since it all begins with the sacrifice and then the seder that follows and runs into the ext day, which is the Sabbath of unleavened bread, it is necessary that the Lamb be eaten with unleavened bread.



There are just too many hazy areas for me in the timing of this event.
I am not convinced one way or the other yet.

[MattyJames]

There are just too many hazy areas for me in the timing of this event.
I am not convinced one way or the other yet.

Yeh I'm much the same at the moment.

My Father has shared with me that he's not convinced the 'Last Supper' was actually the Passover. I haven't delved into his reasons. It would make for an interesting bible study though.

MJ

[Henaynei]

If you all are saying that this was a passover seder, then why were they eating bread as stone highlighted here? It has long been our position that this could NOT have been a Passover Seder since Yeshua died as the Passover Lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple.

As we see it Yeshua was, in the simplest terms, a rabbi, a teacher. Teachers in those days, as did Yeshua, had groups of students, aka disciples, who followed them around as they taught.

As everyone here knows one of the major mitzvot of Pesakh is that everyone eat it in their home. Thus students usually departed from their teacher and returned o their homes throughout Israel for Pesakh Seder.

It was not uncommon for teachers to use this opportunity to use the "teachable moment" and hold a "teaching Seder" wherein they imparted a reawakened awareness of the meanings and lessons embedded in the Seder as well as their own personal insights.

It is our view that the meal that the disciples shared with Yeshua was such a teaching Seder and only could have been so since Pesakh did not begin until after Yeshua breathed His last at His execution.

Yeshua taught them the more full and deeper message in the meanings and traditions of the Seder and thus implanted within each the seed of understanding to help them each eventually see the Hand of G-d in the proceedings of the next day. And it is this same seed of understanding that is waiting there for each of us each year.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Charles YTK]

Matt 26:17Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5062300-do-this-in-remembrance-of-me-[open].html&page=3#_ftn1)

Mark 14: 12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? 13And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. 14And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 15And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. 16And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.[2] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5062300-do-this-in-remembrance-of-me-[open].html&page=3#_ftn2)



LK 22: 7Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. 8And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? 10And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. 11And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 12And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. [3] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5062300-do-this-in-remembrance-of-me-[open].html&page=3#_ftn3)

[1] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5062300-do-this-in-remembrance-of-me-[open].html&page=3#_ftnref1)The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.


Seems pretty clear to me that they were eating the Passover. But rather than simply believing what the Gospels say we shall invent a special "Training Seder" as if the disciples had never been to a seder before in their life, or as some say a Prepassover dinner, and any number of things to avoid the obvious. Henn how can you say that the Jews always kept the Passover each in their own homes? Unleavened bread is a Pilgrimage feast, one of three which calls for all the men are to come before the Lord in Jerusalem, and this feast begins with the Pesach sacrifice. On the first Passover every man killed a lamb in his own gates for his family. In the land they brought their lambs to the temple to be slaughtered. People came from all over Israel to Jerusalem for the sacrifice and feast. The towns would be filled up with Pilgrims none of which were in their own homes.


For myself, I have complete understanding with this series of events and God's clever work is all over it. Placing Yeshua in the temple disctrict at the time that he would need to be there to be arrested, providing a place to observe the Passover with his friends, and still being able to be killed as the prophetic lamb of God in the corrupt Hasmonean temple. I love it. It all fits together perfectly, as the truth so often does. No murkiness for me. Now the Gospels are no longer in conflict with one another, or with the Old Covenant and the historical documents fit perfectly, everything fits and can be checked against each other. I love it! When I removed my head from the books of Christian scholars and naysayers, and looked at the word as it stands and verified the so called impossible conflicts as a true account, then the History of the second temple provided the key that unlocked it for me.

[Bon]

It has long been our position that this could NOT have been a Passover Seder since Yeshua died as the Passover Lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple.

As we see it Yeshua was, in the simplest terms, a rabbi, a teacher. Teachers in those days, as did Yeshua, had groups of students, aka disciples, who followed them around as they taught.

As everyone here knows one of the major mitzvot of Pesakh is that everyone eat it in their home. Thus students usually departed from their teacher and returned o their homes throughout Israel for Pesakh Seder.

It was not uncommon for teachers to use this opportunity to use the "teachable moment" and hold a "teaching Seder" wherein they imparted a reawakened awareness of the meanings and lessons embedded in the Seder as well as their own personal insights.

It is our view that the meal that the disciples shared with Yeshua was such a teaching Seder and only could have been so since Pesakh did not begin until after Yeshua breathed His last at His execution.

Yeshua taught them the more full and deeper message in the meanings and traditions of the Seder and thus implanted within each the seed of understanding to help them each eventually see the Hand of G-d in the proceedings of the next day. And it is this same seed of understanding that is waiting there for each of us each year.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Thank you Henaynei...this makes good sense...and answers some of the questions that have been plaguing me.

There are still some unanswered questions for me however.

Bon

[mpossoff]

Now this is where part of the confusion lies for me.
The greek rendering for bread in this passage is 'arton' which is just regular bread and not unleavened bread.

Azuma, is unleavened bread.
Arton, is regular bread.

The Gospel account of Yeshua's last meal with His disciples before His death at Matthew 26:26, also renders 'bread' as "ARTON" (or regular bread) and not unleavened.

Anyone have any answers for this?Matthew
And at the Seudah, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, having taken matzah, having made HaMotzi, he broke the [middle] matzah, giving the afikoman to the talmidim, and said, Take and eat, this is my basar.

Luke 22:19
And having taken the Afikoman and having made the hamotzi, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach broke the matzah and gave it to them, saying, This is my BASAR (SHEMOT 12:8) being given for you: this do in zikaron (remembrance) of me. [Lv 5:7; 6:23; Ezek 43:21; Isa 53:8]

Marc

[Bon]

Matthew
And at the Seudah, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, having taken matzah, having made HaMotzi, he broke the [middle] matzah, giving the afikoman to the talmidim, and said, Take and eat, this is my basar.

Luke 22:19
And having taken the Afikoman and having made the hamotzi, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach broke the matzah and gave it to them, saying, This is my BASAR (SHEMOT 12:8) being given for you: this do in zikaron (remembrance) of me. [Lv 5:7; 6:23; Ezek 43:21; Isa 53:8]

Marc

What? :confused:

How does a half english, half Hebrew rendering of these verses answer anything?
Especially when 'matzah' is not the correct rendering of bread in this case.
The Greek is artos (regular bread), which is consistent with examples in the Greek Septuagint where in Leviticus 23:17 it refers to the two loaves of leavened bread for Shavuot or Pentecost, as lekhem (hebrew), and artos (greek septuagint).

In Numbers 28:17 it refers to unleavened bread being eaten for 7 days for the feast, as matzot (hebrew), and azuma (greek septuagint).

Bon

[Henaynei]

What? :confused:

How does a half english, half Hebrew rendering of these verses answer anything?
Especially when 'matzah' is not the correct rendering of bread in this case.
The Greek is artos (regular bread), which is consistent with examples in the Greek Septuagint where in Leviticus 23:17 it refers to the two loaves of leavened bread for Shavuot or Pentecost, as lekhem (hebrew), and artos (greek septuagint).

In Numbers 28:17 it refers to unleavened bread being eaten for 7 days for the feast, as matzot (hebrew), and azuma (greek septuagint).

Bonthere are many within the movement who do hold that it was an actual Passover Seder.

as far as half Hebrew/half English the restoration of the Hebrew into the scriptures *can* be very helpful in restoring the Hebraic/Judaic light to scriptures - but this, like *EVERY* translation, is subject to the doctrine and theological understanding of the translators :)

[Charles YTK]

It has long been our position that this could NOT have been a Passover Seder since Yeshua died as the Passover Lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple.

History shows there were two passover observances in the time of Yeshua. One according to th eEscene Calendar and the other according to the Judean calendar. Yeshua could have had his Seder on the Escene Passover and then been crucified on the Judean Passover.

The denial that the Last supper was a Passover seder came from Roman Catholicism which wanted to remove any connection to the Biblical "Jewish" feast days, in favor of their own observance of Easter and Eucharist.

As we see it Yeshua was, in the simplest terms, a rabbi, a teacher. Teachers in those days, as did Yeshua, had groups of students, aka disciples, who followed them around as they taught.

I wonder who you are referring to as "WE", your family, your own congregation, Orthodox Messinaics? And do you mean ,He was simplest terms a Rabbi and nothing more?

As everyone here knows one of the major mitzvot of Pesakh is that everyone eat it in their home. Thus students usually departed from their teacher and returned o their homes throughout Israel for Pesakh Seder.

Passover is part of the pilgrimage festivals and an integral part of the feast of unleavened bread. In second temple Judaism anyone holding a Seder had to register in advance with the temple and list at least 10 participants. The lambs had to be killed in Jerusalem preferably in the temple. It was not allowed for anyone to kill their lambs in their own towns or in their own gates. Torah specified that when they enter the land they can no longer do as each man sees fit but must bring his lamb to the temple to be killed. It is unlikely that pilgrims came from all over Israel to present their lambs and then traveled several days home to have their Seder.

It was not uncommon for teachers to use this opportunity to use the "teachable moment" and hold a "teaching Seder" wherein they imparted a reawakened awareness of the meanings and lessons embedded in the Seder as well as their own personal insights. It is our view that the meal that the disciples shared with Yeshua was such a teaching Seder and only could have been so since Pesakh did not begin until after Yeshua breathed His last at His execution.

Can you site any historical or scriptural proof of this practice of a teaching Seder? And how do you overcome the fact that all the Gospels state clearly that they were preparing to eat the Passover, not practice, train , or rehersing for a seder. They were preparing the Passover. "Passover" comes from "Pesach" and refers to the lamb, the sacrifice. You can not keep the Passover without the lamb being sacrificed, that is what Pesach is. Having a Seder is not keeping the Pesach (Passover.) Passover can only be kept in Jerusalem with the sacrifice. This is why Torah provides a second Passover for those who were not able to make it to Jerusalem at the time of the first Passover.

We are all free to believe whtever we want. However I see some real problems with what you have presented.

The truth of the matter is that the scriptures state two different stories that seem to be in conflict. One says that Yeshua was killed at the same time that the lambs were killed in the temple. The other states that He has a Passover seder with the disciples the night before and had already observed the Passover. The historical fact that two different Passovers were held in Jerusalem in those days, satisfies this in a most unique way and even places the seder in the upper Room that is in the Escene district of Jerusalem meaning that the Escenes hosted the Seder, probably in the very building that had been the place of Davids throne, and that being there in the Escene Quarter, they would have to cross the Kidron valley to get to the Mount of Olives, which is also what the Gospels say.

[Bon]

as far as half Hebrew/half English the restoration of the Hebrew into the scriptures *can* be very helpful in restoring the Hebraic/Judaic light to scriptures - but this, like *EVERY* translation, is subject to the doctrine and theological understanding of the translators :)

Exactly!

Such translations can also be misleading. :sigh:

[Bon]

The truth of the matter is that the scriptures state two different stories that seem to be in conflict. One says that Yeshua was killed at the same time that the lambs were killed in the temple. The other states that He has a Passover seder with the disciples the night before and had already observed the Passover. The historical fact that two different Passovers were held in Jerusalem in those days, satisfies this in a most unique way and even places the seder in the upper Room that is in the Escene district of Jerusalem meaning that the Escenes hosted the Seder, probably in the very building that had been the place of Davids throne, and that being there in the Escene Quarter, they would have to cross the Kidron valley to get to the Mount of Olives, which is also what the Gospels say.

This view of the Passover certainly tidies up many loose ends.

Charles, can you please post the historical information on these two Passover dates? Thank you.
I'd like to read it for myself. :)

[Talmidah]

It has long been our position that this could NOT have been a Passover Seder since Yeshua died as the Passover Lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple.

As we see it Yeshua was, in the simplest terms, a rabbi, a teacher. Teachers in those days, as did Yeshua, had groups of students, aka disciples, who followed them around as they taught.

As everyone here knows one of the major mitzvot of Pesakh is that everyone eat it in their home. Thus students usually departed from their teacher and returned o their homes throughout Israel for Pesakh Seder.

It was not uncommon for teachers to use this opportunity to use the "teachable moment" and hold a "teaching Seder" wherein they imparted a reawakened awareness of the meanings and lessons embedded in the Seder as well as their own personal insights.

It is our view that the meal that the disciples shared with Yeshua was such a teaching Seder and only could have been so since Pesakh did not begin until after Yeshua breathed His last at His execution.

Yeshua taught them the more full and deeper message in the meanings and traditions of the Seder and thus implanted within each the seed of understanding to help them each eventually see the Hand of G-d in the proceedings of the next day. And it is this same seed of understanding that is waiting there for each of us each year.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Very interesting!!! Thank you for the explanation! :)

[Charles YTK]

This view of the Passover certainly tidies up many loose ends.

Charles, can you please post the historical information on these two Passover dates? Thank you.
I'd like to read it for myself. :)
I have a lot of stuff, some of it comes from the dead sea scrolls, and some from Josephus. Even in the days of the second temple there was some variation on how Pesach was observed as we know the Sanaritans, who lived in respectable number in the lands between Jerusalem and the Gallil observed a more "biblical" sort of Pesach eaten in haste and not standing and without wine and sacrificing a lamb on mount Gerizim, which they still do to this day I understand. Pesach in Judea was taken through some reforms under Josiah as we read in Kings, and resulted in many of the traditions that were observed in the second temple and then were modified again after it's destruction into the form that is pretty much what is observed today in Rabbinical Judaism. Prior to these changes lambs for Pesach were sacrificed in many "High Places" set up throughout Israel. After the reforms the scriptures were understood to mean "only in Jerusalem", and the Pesach sacrifice was centralized to the Temple, however there were sects like the Escenes who did not comply because they believed the temple and its priesthood to be defiled and unclean. Yeshua seems to agree with this opinion and levels strong criticism against what the temple had become under the Hasmoneans, and this proves out true as they kill the son of God, their messiah. So there were variations of the Pesach observance even in Jerusalem. There was also the Ethiopian and Falashan sect of Jews in Africa who observed in a different way and time, The Escenes who were the remnants of the Zadokites who were ousted by the Tyrant Antiochus and replaced by the Hasmoeans based on a bribe or high bid for the priesthood. They were present in every city of Israel and had a cloistered group at Qumran, but there presence in Jerusalem was in the escene Quater on the slopes of the temple mount, built around the house of David, the King. Th eZadokites were in covenant with David who had decreed than noone other than a Zadokite would ever be allowed to serve as High Priest. It seems more than likely that the very upper room was in that house of David from where he ruled as King. It was in this same upper room that the disciple returned after the ascention to wait for the Holy Spirit as promised. It would have been one of the only buildings large enough to accomodate 120 or more people in its upper room. And when Peter makes his sermon on Pentecost, he makes several references to David and how his very Tomb was right there where they were and how Yeshua was the Messiah the prince come from the line of David. The connection seems undeniable to me. Yeshuas Seder was prepared by men who were waiting for him prepared to serve the coming Messiah, had preapred the Seder in advance for him, had animals prepared for him to ride into Jerusaelm upon, which is a prophetic sign of the Messiah. This was the entire nature of the Escene movement. John the Baptizer was an Escene as were his two disciples who left to Follow Yeshua, (John being one of them). Their mantra was "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight paths for him in the desert for the Lord is coming." Certainly all of Judaism was living in a time of Messainic expectation, but none so pronounced and dedicated as the Escenes who gave up all material wealth and gave to the poor and lived in austre communal life in preparation and purity expecting Messiah's appearance on the scene.

Really, Tim Hegg who came to the same conclusions that I did (pretty much) has his written up in a nice little package.

Here is the link:

http://www.torahresource.com/English...Chronology.pdf (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/PassionChronology.pdf)

[Steve Petersen]

We say "who brings forth bread from the earth" over matzah. This is the same blessing as for leavened bread. No one mistakes matzah for leavend bread because of the blessing.

[Bon]

I have a lot of stuff, some of it comes from the dead sea scrolls, and some from Josephus. Even in the days of the second temple there was some variation on how Pesach was observed as we know the Sanaritans, who lived in respectable number in the lands between Jerusalem and the Gallil observed a more "biblical" sort of Pesach eaten in haste and not standing and without wine and sacrificing a lamb on mount Gerizim, which they still do to this day I understand. Pesach in Judea was taken through some reforms under Josiah as we read in Kings, and resulted in many of the traditions that were observed in the second temple and then were modified again after it's destruction into the form that is pretty much what is observed today in Rabbinical Judaism. Prior to these changes lambs for Pesach were sacrificed in many "High Places" set up throughout Israel. After the reforms the scriptures were understood to mean "only in Jerusalem", and the Pesach sacrifice was centralized to the Temple, however there were sects like the Escenes who did not comply because they believed the temple and its priesthood to be defiled and unclean. Yeshua seems to agree with this opinion and levels strong criticism against what the temple had become under the Hasmoneans, and this proves out true as they kill the son of God, their messiah. So there were variations of the Pesach observance even in Jerusalem. There was also the Ethiopian and Falashan sect of Jews in Africa who observed in a different way and time, The Escenes who were the remnants of the Zadokites who were ousted by the Tyrant Antiochus and replaced by the Hasmoeans based on a bribe or high bid for the priesthood. They were present in every city of Israel and had a cloistered group at Qumran, but there presence in Jerusalem was in the escene Quater on the slopes of the temple mount, built around the house of David, the King. Th eZadokites were in covenant with David who had decreed than noone other than a Zadokite would ever be allowed to serve as High Priest. It seems more than likely that the very upper room was in that house of David from where he ruled as King. It was in this same upper room that the disciple returned after the ascention to wait for the Holy Spirit as promised. It would have been one of the only buildings large enough to accomodate 120 or more people in its upper room. And when Peter makes his sermon on Pentecost, he makes several references to David and how his very Tomb was right there where they were and how Yeshua was the Messiah the prince come from the line of David. The connection seems undeniable to me. Yeshuas Seder was prepared by men who were waiting for him prepared to serve the coming Messiah, had preapred the Seder in advance for him, had animals prepared for him to ride into Jerusaelm upon, which is a prophetic sign of the Messiah. This was the entire nature of the Escene movement. John the Baptizer was an Escene as were his two disciples who left to Follow Yeshua, (John being one of them). Their mantra was "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight paths for him in the desert for the Lord is coming." Certainly all of Judaism was living in a time of Messainic expectation, but none so pronounced and dedicated as the Escenes who gave up all material wealth and gave to the poor and lived in austre communal life in preparation and purity expecting Messiancs appearance on the scene.

Really, Tim Hegg who came to the same conclusions that I did (pretty much) has his written up in a nice little package.

Here is the link:

http://www.torahresource.com/English...Chronology.pdf (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/PassionChronology.pdf)

Thanks Charles.....
I'm off to do some study now.

(Please dont delete these posts for any reason.... I really want to read through them again ;) )

Happy Passover all...:clap: :clap:
Preparation day is here downunder.

Bon

[Henaynei]

We say "who brings forth bread from the earth" over matzah. This is the same blessing as for leavened bread. No one mistakes matzah for leavend bread because of the blessing.exactly