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reddogs
27th March 2007, 12:59 PM
We hear of people testing the spirit, by what they hear or see, by their experience, or by their feelings. If it feels good or right they "bear witness" to the spirit, but do they check to see that it follows Gods truth.
1 John 4:1 tells us to try or "test the spirits." Why? Because there are false beliefs and prophecies given by false spirits. This mandate is for our protection. The way to test a false spirit was by the word of God and the testimonies of Jesus.

l Thess. 5:19-22
Quench not the Spirit.
Despise not prophesyings.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

We are to be open to what God may have to say but not naive'. The word "prove" (Gr. doldmazo) means to discern or examine in order to prove whether or not a thing is acceptable. There is spirits that are evil and to test all things means to test spirits as well as prophecy and teaching. Many who follow their own ideas or "the wisdom of man" or harden their hearts thinking they know better than what is written in His Scriptures and follow spirits that dont really follow God's truth. They refuse or dont live according to the word of God which includes His definition of sin and so will go from bad to worse in their understanding of the truth, deceiving and being deceived.

Zechariah 7:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=7&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets....


Matthew 7:16-21
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus says "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." So he is actually saying by the way someone lives, acts and says things, you can know him or her. What someone believes will be shown on the outside, we cannot judge the persons heart, but we can determine their spirit they follow and whether they have the truth within them.

James 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=1&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.


Micaiah Prophesies Against Ahab

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?"

4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD."
6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets—about four hundred men—and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"
8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah."
"The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied.
9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once."
10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "
12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."
14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"
17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-9505a)] the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked.
25 Micaiah replied, "You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room."
26 The king of Israel then ordered, "Take Micaiah and send him back to Amon the ruler of the city and to Joash the king's son 27 and say, 'This is what the king says: Put this fellow in prison and give him nothing but bread and water until I return safely.' "
28 Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the LORD has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"

Ahab Killed at Ramoth Gilead

29 So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah went up to Ramoth Gilead. 30 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "I will enter the battle in disguise, but you wear your royal robes." So the king of Israel disguised himself and went into battle.

31 Now the king of Aram had ordered his thirty-two chariot commanders, "Do not fight with anyone, small or great, except the king of Israel." 32 When the chariot commanders saw Jehoshaphat, they thought, "Surely this is the king of Israel." So they turned to attack him, but when Jehoshaphat cried out, 33 the chariot commanders saw that he was not the king of Israel and stopped pursuing him.
34 But someone drew his bow at random and hit the king of Israel between the sections of his armor. The king told his chariot driver, "Wheel around and get me out of the fighting. I've been wounded." 35 All day long the battle raged, and the king was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans. The blood from his wound ran onto the floor of the chariot, and that evening he died. 36 As the sun was setting, a cry spread through the army: "Every man to his town; everyone to his land!" 37 So the king died and was brought to Samaria, and they buried him there. 38 They washed the chariot at a pool in Samaria (where the prostitutes bathed), [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-9519b)] and the dogs licked up his blood, as the word of the LORD had declared. 1 Kings 22:1-37




We are to judge and distinguish between good and bad fruit from a tree. The fruit speaks of the outward display of what kind of life is inside. The tree would be the spirit they follow or the doctrine it gives them that will produce either good or bad fruit. If the spirit and the doctrine given is false it will show in what they teach that it does not go according to the truth given by God in His word. God says one can actually say they are hearing from the Lord, but it really is their own spirit or from another not of God.


To be filled with the Spirit means that someone will act spiritual, that they are under the control of the Spirit and the fruit of his presence will show.Matthew 12:33: "a tree is known by its fruit." The fruit of the Spirit shows the life of Christ. If we do not show a change in our lives, turning from our old way of sin and evil, then the person may have been deceived by a lying spirit as evil and his minions are always ready to keep us in sin and there are many lead by these false spirits who teach things obviously counter to the Bible, and their fruits show it.

They will go to God's word for guidance and understanding for matters in their lives, not to a false spirit that has not truth and follows not the word of God and deceives them.

Eila
27th March 2007, 01:48 PM
We hear of people testing the spirit, by what they hear or see, by their experience, or by their feelings. If it feels good or right they "bear witness" to the spirit, but do they check to see that it follows Gods truth.

Reddogs,

Who are these people you refer to that test by their experience, feelings, or what they see or hear?




Matthew 7:16-21
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus says "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." So he is actually saying by the way someone lives, acts and says things, you can know him or her. What someone believes will be shown on the outside, we cannot judge the persons heart, but we can determine their spirit they follow and whether they have the truth within them.

Yes, the fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."



To be filled with the Spirit means that someone will act spiritual, that they are under the control of the Spirit and the fruit of his presence will show.

Yes, the fruit will show. It may not show immediately, but a branch connected to the vine will bear fruit.

freeindeed2
27th March 2007, 05:41 PM
Reddogs,

Who are these people you refer to that test by their experience, feelings, or what they see or hear?
Yeah, I'm currious too. I don't know of ANY! Are you (reddogs) accusing Mormons and/or Pentecostals here?

Yes, the fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."

Yes, the fruit will show. It may not show immediately, but a branch connected to the vine will bear fruit.
I agree, and notice 'whose' fruit it is that's produced in the believer. (HINT: FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT!)

reddogs
29th March 2007, 07:37 PM
"Who are these people you refer to that test by their experience, feelings, or what they see or hear?"....

Those who say "they" decide if they are saved not "God", because they are somehow more 'wise and all knowing' than the divine by what they feel or see or hear things...

Eila
29th March 2007, 07:40 PM
"Who are these people you refer to that test by their experience, feelings, or what they see or hear?"....

Those who say "they" decide if they are saved not "God", because they are somehow more 'wise and all knowing' than the divine by what they feel or see or hear things...

Who here decides that they are saved? I don't decide that I'm saved, God does.

reddogs
29th March 2007, 07:52 PM
If I remember correctly you stated in the context of saved by faith, to the affect "what is wrong with saying I am saved here and now"....do you have a different outlook now.....

Eila
29th March 2007, 07:54 PM
If I remember correctly you stated in the context of saved by faith, to the affect "what is wrong with saying I am saved here and now"....do you have a different outlook now.....

Nope. I am saved!! I'll say it again. I am saved :clap: :clap: Thank you Jesus!!!:clap:

How do I know I am saved? Because the Word of God tells me so and His Spirit has been given to me as a deposit.

I didn't decide I was saved, God did!

reddogs
29th March 2007, 08:00 PM
By faith, as we can always be tempted and fall away until Jesus Christ completely transforms us at His Coming or we reach perfection like Enoch.

Eila
29th March 2007, 08:58 PM
By faith, as we can always be tempted and fall away until Jesus Christ completely transforms us at His Coming or we reach perfection like Enoch.

We are transformed already. That is what being born again is all about. Do you think being born again is talking about your new body?

Where does the Bible say that Enoch reached perfection?

reddogs
30th March 2007, 05:52 AM
So why do you continue sinning?

freeindeed2
30th March 2007, 08:11 AM
So why do you continue sinning?
Why haven't you reached perfection yet? What if Jesus comes back next week and you haven't reached perfection?

reddogs
30th March 2007, 08:56 AM
If we have our faith in Jesus Christ (and not ourselves), his grace is sufficient for us:

2 Corinthians 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

freeindeed2
30th March 2007, 09:24 AM
If we have our faith in Jesus Christ (and not ourselves), his grace is sufficient for us:

2 Corinthians 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth on this. On the one hand you're teaching that by the power of God we can be perfect in these earthly bodies (this side of glory). On the other hand you're saying that since we're not perfect (and nobody has been, except God/Jesus) we are covered by grace. So which position do you support? You can't have your cake and eat it too.:)

Eila
30th March 2007, 09:33 AM
So why do you continue sinning?

Because I am still maturing. The perfection/sinlessness is in my spirit. Maturing is the process of working out that perfection.

reddogs
30th March 2007, 09:36 AM
Enoch was and God took him..but for those who by the Holy Spirit are spiritually discerning, they can see the majority of christians are not perfect...

1 Corinthians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eila
30th March 2007, 09:39 AM
If we have our faith in Jesus Christ (and not ourselves), his grace is sufficient for us:


I think I "get" what you are saying here. Faith in ourselves would be saying your saved? I see how you would need to see it that way because don't you believe that you need to be perfect in your actions to be saved and that those who say they are saved are having faith that they will be perfect? Is that your position?

When I say I am saved , I take the faith off of myself and put it on Jesus. I have faith in what Jesus did for me.


2 Corinthians 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

This text is not talking about sin or overcoming sin. This text is referring to the persecution Paul faced for preaching the Gospel.

reddogs
30th March 2007, 09:39 AM
But sin and God cannot exist together, so the Holy Spirit has to transform completely to perfection or Jesus Christ at the Second Coming...and I've yet to meet a 'christian' that was perfect, without sin.

Eila
30th March 2007, 09:42 AM
Enoch was and God took him..but for those who by the Holyt Spirit are spiritually discerning, they can see the majority of christians are not perfect...

1 Corinthians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where does the Bible say Enoch was perfect?

You are judging perfection by looking at the actions. God looks at the heart. It is not the actions that are perfect, but the spirit.

What would happen if you die today and have not reached perfection?

freeindeed2
30th March 2007, 09:44 AM
Enoch was and God took him..but for those who by the Holyt Spirit are spiritually discerning, they can see the majority of christians are not perfect...

1 Corinthians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Maybe your definition of 'perfect' is different than mine? Are you saying that Enoch was without sin?

And what do you do about passages that say 'all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God?' Is Enoch exempt from that statement?

Or what about this one:

"No one is good, not even one.
No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God.
All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong.
No one does good, not even one." Rom 3:10-12

Was Enoch exempt from this too? Do you think there is a 'minority' of Christians who are 'perfect' by your definition, since you indicate that the 'majority' are not?

Eila
30th March 2007, 09:45 AM
But sin and God cannot exist together, so the Holy Spirit has to transform completely to perfection or Jesus Christ at the Second Coming...and I've yet to meet a 'christian' that was perfect, without sin.

So you think being born again happens at the Second Coming?

What happens if you die today and are not perfected?

You say that sin and God cannot exist together. Do you believe the Holy Spirit dwells in you? If so, how if you are not perfected?

reddogs
30th March 2007, 09:48 AM
I ask again, do you still sin "today".


If you still sin, then something must changed or be "transformed" before you can be with God...

IamAdopted
30th March 2007, 09:57 AM
By faith, as we can always be tempted and fall away until Jesus Christ completely transforms us at His Coming or we reach perfection like Enoch.
How can anyone even ourselves take us from the Palm of the Fathers hand? For it is Christ in us the Hope of all Glory.

freeindeed2
30th March 2007, 09:59 AM
How can anyone even ourselves take us from the Palm of the Fathers hand? For it is Christ in us the Hope of all Glory.
Exactly. It would mean that God was not powerful enough to do what he said he would. It would mean that HE is not faithful.

But he is, which is why we can have complete confidence in HIM.

IamAdopted
30th March 2007, 10:00 AM
I ask again, do you still sin "today".


If you still sin, then something must changed or be "transformed" before you can be with God...
Do we continually walk in sin or do we fall and ask for forgiveness? For if we are indeed born of God Spirit it Him at work in us to do the will of the Father. Living a life by the Law will never bring us to righteousness. Those of us who are lead by the Holy Spirit are Children of God. Born of His spirit. I am saved by what Christ has done for me. Not because of who I am but because of Who He is. Not because of what I have done but because of what He has done. For while I was yet a sinner Christ died for me.

reddogs
30th March 2007, 10:02 AM
Amen

reddogs
30th March 2007, 10:04 AM
We are on the correct track, faith in Jesus (not our own selves) for salvation.

Eila
30th March 2007, 10:08 AM
I ask again, do you still sin "today".


If you still sin, then something must changed or be "transformed" before you can be with God...

So you don't believe you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until you are perfect?

What happens if you die today and are not perfect yet?

reddogs
30th March 2007, 10:14 AM
I ask again, are you 'perfect' and no longer sin 'today', or do you still sin?

Eila
30th March 2007, 10:40 AM
I ask again, are you 'perfect' and no longer sin 'today', or do you still sin?

I've answered these before, but I'll answer them again. Yes, I am perfect forever because of His perfection in my spirit. Yes, I still sin. That sin doesn't affect my state of sinlessness because it is based on His sinlessness not my own.


Can you answer these questions?

So you don't believe you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until you are perfect?

What happens if you die today and are not perfect?