EO beliefs about Christ's crucifixion and forgiveness of sins.

[Akathist]

How would you explain the EO beliefs about the cruicifixion of Christ and the forgiveness of sins to a protestant?

How are our beliefs similar or different then some of the protestant beliefs you are familiar with?

Put another way, how would you answer this question: "Did Christ's death on the cross forgive me my sins?"

[Knowledge3]

Yes, the blood of Jesus cleanses and purifies from all sin.

[MichaelArchangelos]

Put another way, how would you answer this question: "Did Christ's death on the cross forgive me my sins?"

I would answer yes.

But the more important issue which separates Orthodox and Protestants is "How do we receive Christ's forgiveness and His Grace?" The Protestants believe that it comes from faith alone (Just believe in Jesus). We believe that we receive Christ's forgiveness and grace through faith, good works and the Sacraments.

[eoe]

We recognize that the main purpose of the incarnation was regenative - to restore us. This restoration absolurely includes the forgiveness of sins - this is a large part of it but the restoration also includes regeneration of ourselves here in this life (theosis) as well as the destruction of death (Christus Victor?).
The focus of the protestants is on the punishment of sin and a waiver of guilt - the escape from hell - many would say that the father put the son on the cross while we would say that he ascended the cross of his own will.

Yes - there is an attonement of sin but there is also more.


(warning: this post was made pre-caffeine)

[Photini]

One huge difference is that we don't look at the Cross as the beginning of our salvation....Our salvation began at the Annunciation. His birth and life are just as significant and necessary for our salvation as His death and resurrection.

[eoe]

Photini raises a good point - the whole of the incarnation was important - here is my advice - have the protestant read St. Athanasius - On The Incarnation

[Akathist]

What about a protestant who says:

"Because of the 'blood of the cross', (the crucifixion), my lust for my neighbor's husband has already been forgiven."

I am trying to figure out a way to address the subject of the Crucifixion not forgiving individual sins. I thought I understood this enough to explain it but I can't even find a good eo reference. The Incarnation is a great work but does not directly address this.

Maybe my mind is not working on a cylindors again. (or as usual depending on who you ask.)

[Knowledge3]

Gospel readings about the crucifixion:

(Greek-interlinear) St.Matthew 20.16 And they will deliver Him up to the heathen to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify. And on the third day he will rise again.

(Greek-interlinear) St.Matthew 26.2 You know that the Passover is coming after two days, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.

(Greek-interlinear) St. Mark 14.13 But Pilate said to them, what then do you desire do to him whom you call King of the Jews? (13) And again they cried out, Crucify him! (14) But Pilate said to them, what evil did he do? But much more they cried out, Crucify him!

[Knowledge3]

my favorite ikon of the crucifixion

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9896/crucifixiondarkau5.jpg

[EmperorConstantine]

What about a protestant who says:

"Because of the 'blood of the cross', (the crucifixion), my lust for my neighbor's husband has already been forgiven."
I'm not sure because it is the Protestant with the lust for the neighbor's husband that has sinned here.

Tell them that just because they are a self-proclaiming Christian does not guarantee that God will judge them favorably.

Using their logic, have the atrocities committed by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and others; been forgiven and will they go to heaven?

Does Christ's crucifixion excuse any sins we the humans commit?

[Akathist]

Does Christ's crucifixion excuse any sins we the humans commit?

That is what I am having trouble explaining the EO point of view on.

I know that the effects of sin were changed drastically due to the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Christ. I can explain that but on a more global level. Mankinds sins were forgiven in that the powers of hell were defeated, because the sacrements were given to us, because the Church was started, etc. etc.

I can explain how the cruicifixion is not a payment for some kind of penalty owed to God.

I can explain about the loving mercy of the Lord whose sacrifice was about rescueing us, not bonding us out of "jail" (hell).

But it my explanations are about "us", about human's. I can't seem to figure out how to explain this on an individual level... how the crucifixion connects to our sacrement of confession for example.

Someone asked me why confession was needed. I have explained but then the cruicifixion was brought in to the discussion and I know what I know but I can't seem to find the words to explain it.

[EmperorConstantine]

hmm...

Is this happening somewhere on CF? Maybe I can lend a helping hand.

[repentant]

Ask them why repentance is preached in the Scriptures. Ask them why Jesus said we must obey His commandments (i.e. the rich young man). Ask them why Paul said we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Ask them why, when Christ was talking about the last judgement, there were those who said they knew Christ, but yet He did not know them, and they were cast with the goats. Also ask them at the last judgement, Christ never mentions faith, but He told all who fed the hungry, visited prisoner's, clothed the naked, gave drink to the thirsty, and helped the sick, to enter into His Kingdom, and those who didn't were called "cursed" and told to depart from Him..

Ask them these...

[repentant]

Dup post..

[Knowledge3]

*bump*

:priest:

[Philothei]

These are two separate issues though.

One is individual salvation through Christ's death and resurrection and the second is redemtion of all creation due to God's (incarnation-resurrection) redemption plan.

1. Christ who is also God and man came to offer the chance for us to be redeemed. He died and he got resurrected. He redeemed us as we are part of the creation. It is through his redemption that we are promised salvation.Redemption is for all creatures and all nature


2.Salvation is a personal choice we either want it or not. We either sin and we reject Christ or "hit the mark" bull's eye and live with Christ, and we walk a righteous life in Christ (rependance, confession, eucarist alll the sacraments). God is always there to recieve us and ultimately it is through his mercy that we enter Paradise, as we are never completely free of sin.:liturgy:



St. Maximus the Confessor, in his On the Ascetical Life, declares: “The Cross is the victory of love.”


The proponents of the heretical, Scholastic theories of atonement insist that God’s honor or majesty or justice had to be “satisfied” or “appeased” before God’s love and compassion could be shown to mankind. God could not forgive mankind until His wrath had been propitiated. These beliefs attribute a division, opposition, and contradiction within the simplicity of the Divinity. Furthermore, they, like the pagan Greek philoso­phers, subject the superessential and almighty God to a necessity of His nature.[2] (http://www.homb.org/st_annas/Articles/EparchialSynod/Redemption.htm#_ftn2)


Also try this site:
http://www.homb.org/st_annas/Articles/EparchialSynod/Redemption.htm


The idea of redemption as a "sacrifice" if taken to an great extend it can lead to dogmatic implications as St. Maximus here implies. We do believe that Christ "paid ransom" for our sins. It is in the troparia of our church, but we have to be careful to read too much into it. He did pay the ransom on our behalf that much is true but that was the part of the economy plan of God. We should not feel guilty Christ died for us. He did it out of love for us and his creation. We feel his passion and we appreciate greatly for what He suffered for us of course. As a man he suffered greatly the ultimate denial of his will to live and that is something that we as humans find it so hard to be able to overcome our temptation and self denial, our martyrs are prime example of that self denial also.


Also i enjoyed this :

St. Isaac the Syrian, in his Ascetical Homilies, writes:
But the sum of all is that God the Lord surrendered His own Son to death on the Cross for the fervent love of creation… This was not, however, be­cause He could not have redeemed us in another way, but so that His sur­passing love, manifested hereby, might be a teacher unto us. And by the death of His only-be­gotten Son He made us near to Himself. Yea, if He had had anything more pre­cious, He would have given it to us, so that by it our race might be His own. Be­cause of His great love for us it was not His pleasure to do vio­lence to our free­dom… but He chose that we should draw near to Him by the love of our understanding…
Homily 71 (48, in Russian)

Also a good read is "on the incarnation" by St. Athanasius. If I think of anything else I wil get you the links.

Hope this helps,:crosseo:
Philothei

[eoe]

What about a protestant who says:

"Because of the 'blood of the cross', (the crucifixion), my lust for my neighbor's husband has already been forgiven."

I am trying to figure out a way to address the subject of the Crucifixion not forgiving individual sins. I thought I understood this enough to explain it but I can't even find a good eo reference. The Incarnation is a great work but does not directly address this.

Maybe my mind is not working on a cylindors again. (or as usual depending on who you ask.)
How about:
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
too blunt?

[Knowledge3]

How about: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

too blunt?

Works for me.

Note I added 3 gospel readings on the crucifixion of Christ on the 1st page.

[Akathist]

These are two separate issues though.

One is individual salvation through Christ's death and resurrection and the second is redemtion of all creation due to God's (incarnation-resurrection) redemption plan.

1. Christ who is also God and man came to offer the chance for us to be redeemed. He died and he got resurrected. He redeemed us as we are part of the creation. It is through his redemption that we are promised salvation.Redemption is for all creatures and all nature


2.Salvation is a personal choice we either want it or not. We either sin and we reject Christ or "hit the mark" bull's eye and live with Christ, and we walk a righteous life in Christ (rependance, confession, eucarist alll the sacraments). God is always there to recieve us and ultimately it is through his mercy that we enter Paradise, as we are never completely free of sin.:liturgy:



St. Maximus the Confessor, in his On the Ascetical Life, declares: “The Cross is the victory of love.”


The proponents of the heretical, Scholastic theories of atonement insist that God’s honor or majesty or justice had to be “satisfied” or “appeased” before God’s love and compassion could be shown to mankind. God could not forgive mankind until His wrath had been propitiated. These beliefs attribute a division, opposition, and contradiction within the simplicity of the Divinity. Furthermore, they, like the pagan Greek philoso­phers, subject the superessential and almighty God to a necessity of His nature.[2] (http://www.homb.org/st_annas/Articles/EparchialSynod/Redemption.htm#_ftn2)


Also try this site:
http://www.homb.org/st_annas/Articles/EparchialSynod/Redemption.htm


The idea of redemption as a "sacrifice" if taken to an great extend it can lead to dogmatic implications as St. Maximus here implies. We do believe that Christ "paid ransom" for our sins. It is in the troparia of our church, but we have to be careful to read too much into it. He did pay the ransom on our behalf that much is true but that was the part of the economy plan of God. We should not feel guilty Christ died for us. He did it out of love for us and his creation. We feel his passion and we appreciate greatly for what He suffered for us of course. As a man he suffered greatly the ultimate denial of his will to live and that is something that we as humans find it so hard to be able to overcome our temptation and self denial, our martyrs are prime example of that self denial also.


Also i enjoyed this :

St. Isaac the Syrian, in his Ascetical Homilies, writes:
But the sum of all is that God the Lord surrendered His own Son to death on the Cross for the fervent love of creation… This was not, however, be­cause He could not have redeemed us in another way, but so that His sur­passing love, manifested hereby, might be a teacher unto us. And by the death of His only-be­gotten Son He made us near to Himself. Yea, if He had had anything more pre­cious, He would have given it to us, so that by it our race might be His own. Be­cause of His great love for us it was not His pleasure to do vio­lence to our free­dom… but He chose that we should draw near to Him by the love of our understanding…
Homily 71 (48, in Russian)

Also a good read is "on the incarnation" by St. Athanasius. If I think of anything else I wil get you the links.

Hope this helps,:crosseo:
Philothei

Thank you. I think that is the trouble in my efforts to explain. Having grown up Protestant, personal salvation and redemption was my only approach to the cross. I can't exactly explain why it was so easy for me to take on the idea of the humankinds redemption on the cross but I must have studied and read so much about it that I forgot or didn't even look at the individual aspect.

I think I might have thrown the baby out with the bathwater in some respects in that I didn't look at something perhaps out of concern that my beliefs were not "Orthodox" enough. I am so glad I had the chance to see this area to improve upon.

The more I learn the more I see how little I have ever known.

I liked that quote so much I edited my signature to add it.

[Akathist]

Well, I had a long talk to day with someone on this subject and in the course of that talk I was able to explain it.

Here is basically how I put it (please correct me if I am still not explaining this well... I am so frustrated with myself over this!)

God loves us even though we sin. God loves the person but does not love the sin.

Out of the love for humankind, Christ died on the Cross (explaining that the cross is not the only part of Christ work for our salvation but it started with His incarnation). That death on the cross ended death. Death is the natural consequence of the sin of Adam.

This was not however, to pay a ransom or a debt to God. This was merely to return us back to the state human kind was in before the Fall of Adam. (Explaining that this does not mean we bear the guilt of Adam's sin, only the natural consequences of that sin.) Christs death on the cross (and resurrection, ascencion) was a healing action, not a price paid for something.

Since human kind continues to sin, the world does not resemble our ideas of the "Garden of Eden". Yet, death has been conquered by Christ, who has freed all from the grave and given them life.

We humans continue to sin. Those sins are not forgiven by the cross. Those sins are confessed to Christ for forgivness. The Cross did not stop the need for our confessions nor did it guarentee salvation for all. Ending death does not mean salvation in the way EO's see salvation. But, the incarnation, life, teachings, death and sacrements Christ gave us help us toward salvation. We choose to use this help or reject it.