Issues with Scripture

[JustinHesychast]

I really want to become vegan, and feel it is the right thing to do.

But it seems like certain Scripture.. like:
- All of the OT
- In the NT, God declares all food clean.
- Paul says that he who eats meat should only abstain for the sake of the weaker brother, who eats none.
- When God commanded Saul to destroy the Amalekites, including all their livestock? Saul disobeyed, and ended up in deep trouble.

And then the whole obvious one that everyone throws up--"But Jesus ate fish. He even had his disciples catch more. If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."

I mean, animals feel emotions, and express them. They have personalities. They feel pain. Fear death.

I'm getting all sad again. Feeling like I can't be Christian and vegan. Or if I even should.

I dunno.

>_<

[Photios]

Still, AS, it never says that you MUST eat meat. There is nothing wrong with giving it up, in a moral or Scriptural sense. As a further note, fish are not Biblically considered the same as other animals, but that doesn't mean that you have to eat them either. The only thing would be to make sure not to judge those of us that do have a carnivorous bent.

[Jacob4707]

I've heard that a common monastic rule is vegetarianism. Maybe not strict vegan (i.e., no animal products, no eggs, no dairy, nothing!), but at least vegetarian (i.e., no flesh). True? If so, then vegetarianism has a long and sacred Christian tradition behind it.

[jckstraw72]

you can certainly be vegan and Christian, but dont think its something Christians must do.

Creation is for hte benefit of man. Some of that benefit is food.

[Orthosdoxa]

AS, be vegan, if that's what you want. As long as you don't judge those who aren't, it's all good.

[gorion]

AS, be vegan, if that's what you want. As long as you don't judge those who aren't, it's all good.

:thumbsup:

Rep for you ;)

[repentant]

Acts 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

this is from the Council in Jerusalem. This is why we fast from meat, because it contains blood..

[JustinHesychast]

Well, define judge. Because if I go vegan, I will think that it is the right thing to do, and that everyone else should. I will be an activist (but no protests... those are silly). But I will not form an opinion prematurely on anyone who isn't vegan, and I will not look down on them if they are not--though I will think they should be vegan.

Did that make sense? O_o

[Orthosdoxa]

I will not look down on them if they are not

Works for me.

[JustinHesychast]

Hrm. What about all those huge EO meat feasts? And Cheese Fare Sunday?

[Orthosdoxa]

what about them?

[Hoser03]

Hello,

Would never claim to be a theological expert, but as a matter of basic nutrition and diet there are few life styles less healthy than veganism. The body tears apart muscle tissue during use, no matter of it's heavy skating or just walking around the house. To rebuild that tissue you need to provide yourself with complete proteins, these are found only in meat. Choices like chicken and fish sources are best, but beef and pork are better choices than none at all. There are no non-meat sources of complete protiens, and plant protiens are essitially different on a number of levels. Supplementing becomes necessary, although no supplement can actually provide you a complete protien. For people that have jobs that allow you to sit on your backside all day the effects of a lack of complete protiens would not be as noticed. For people that are exercise properly the effects would be pronounced and only become more so over time. Think of your car, it needs gasoline to run as designed. You could use a mix of other substances to make it work, but the best choice is the simple one, give it gasoline. The human diet developed because of hunter-gatherer ancestors, meat was a big part of their diet. The lack of meat during the middle ages played a big role in the limited size of people as well as shortend life spans.
For teenagers with all the chemical changes going on in your body propert diet is even more important. You should talk with your family doctor as you shouldn't just be making these sorts of choices on your own. That much applies to anyone thinking of making serious changes in their diets.

[Philothei]

I know a family who are orthodox and the father is a doctor and they are vegans. The mother is strict vegan that does not mean anything... meaning they do not "chew out" anybody else that is not. And in "orthodox feasts" there is always some vegetarian food around. My father also is vegetarian in Greece and he is always able to get vegetarian food at any meal of the day. It is a matter of choice. As long as you are not judgemental about it you can practice it or not.
Christ did not specify to be a vegan, vegetarian or carnivorous. My humble opinion is that if we were meant to eat meat we should have the teeth for it and we do we have teeth for veggies and fruit... but that is little me what do I know.

God bless,
Philothei

[kamikat]

As for meatfare, cheesefare, you can discuss that with your priest, once you can meet with him, but I will tell you what I did. For medical reasons, I no longer eat red meat, dairy or eggs. However, I do eat things like Boca burgers, soy lattes, ect. I treat those products just the same as the regular versions.

[stivvy]

Again, I do not think it is an issue with is it right or wrong, but rather your reasons for it. Please do not say it is because of animal rights and all that. Because if you are going to take that extreme of a position then you must consider the plants you eat and the pain you are causing it plucking it from it's natural state and you must consider the shoes you wear and the clothes on your back and the car you drive and it goes on and on....

Your reasoning has to be personal and holy. If you are doing it for these reasons then you won't have any issue or struggles with the decision.

IMHO

[JustinHesychast]

Animal rights. Thee. I said it. Plants do not do not feel pain. They are not conscious beings with personalities. They do not love, feel happy, fear, feel pain, feel sadness.

Yes, this also includes buying vegan shoes, making an effort to drive less and use more mass transit, an effort to buy non-sweatshop clothing, etc.

[jckstraw72]

if God Himself declared all foods acceptable how could you think veganism is the right thing for everyone?

[JustinHesychast]

And that's exactly the topic of this thread. Veganism seems to have some issues with Scripture.

[Hoser03]

Have you ever spent any time around cows, sheep, horses, or other live stock? Dumbest creatures ever to walk on the face of God's green earth. Few, if any, animal behavorists would do anything but laugh at the notion that cows have any conception of death. They are so stupid ranchers feed them magnets because during grazing cows will eat nails and other metal objects. The magnets keep these things in the cow's first stomach as they would eat them again in the cudd which would cause serious damage. A creature that will eat a nail not once, but twice, does not feel pain in the way that more intelligent creatures do.
Modern slaughter methods are absolutely pain free, methods of slaughter like Kosher slaughter (or the Muslim version) are not practiced and often illegal. Not getting your information from PETA propaganda is a good idea.

[minasoliman]

The "pain and personality" rule seems to be quite lacking argumentatively, and definitively as well if pain is considered.

If one assumes pain is having the nervous system capability of communicating to the brain and back again with expressions of suffering, then by all means, consistently, you will have to include abortions of fertilized eggs or embryos that do not have a nervous system yet.

Now, on the other hand, I've heard arguments like "our teeth were made to be vegetarians" or "it's healthier to be vegetarians," I personally cannot fight against that, as I would be obliged scientifically to agree. But that shouldn't make me judge that it's wrong or heretical to eat meat. Although this is a dangerous path that may dangerously allow loss of meaning for fasting, perhaps fasting can provide a way to keep our bodies healthier as well. Perhaps, also, we should encourage people to eat meat less often or to eat meat (going to extremes) occasionally. But to say eating meat is wrong, when talking to a strict vegan or vegetarian, is like saying drinking liquor is wrong.

God bless.

[repentant]

The "pain and personality" rule seems to be quite lacking argumentatively, and definitively as well if pain is considered.

If one assumes pain is having the nervous system capability of communicating to the brain and back again with expressions of suffering, then by all means, consistently, you will have to include abortions of fertilized eggs or embryos that do not have a nervous system yet.

Now, on the other hand, I've heard arguments like "our teeth were made to be vegetarians" or "it's healthier to be vegetarians," I personally cannot fight against that, as I would be obliged scientifically to agree. But that shouldn't make me judge that it's wrong or heretical to eat meat. Although this is a dangerous path that may dangerously allow loss of meaning for fasting, perhaps fasting can provide a way to keep our bodies healthier as well. Perhaps, also, we should encourage people to eat meat less often or to eat meat (going to extremes) occasionally. But to say eating meat is wrong, when talking to a strict vegan or vegetarian, is like saying drinking liquor is wrong.

God bless.

I wouldn't say our teeth were made to be vegan. We have teeth suited for both carnivorism and veganism. We have canines and incisors for pulling, ripping tearing, and we have molars for chewing. Since we are the smartest of God's creatures, we have the ability to cut food, and make it easier for consumption so our canines are not as prominant as in other animals such as wolves or bears..

[Philothei]

AS, only man was made in the image and likeness of God, not the creatures. They have "personality" but they are not humans. Are also the plants living things? Also in Genesis we are instructed that we may eat from all the plant and animal kingdom. If it was not for us to eat them then Christ would have instruct us not to eat them. But He did not. We know from scriptural accounts that he ate fish in many ocassions. I do not, personally, feel there is an "issue" with the scriptures. Some vegans they try to make a case of it and I am aware of it. But stil does not hold any water for me.

As far as how "humane" is the treatment of modern time slaughter houses there are opposing views as some of them do not follow proper procedures. Also the inhumane treatment of "mass farming" is doubtfull also. I believe in "free range" farming, the old fashioned way and that the only meat I buy.

As far the polution ... I do not see the connection there... Vegans still drive cars. I think.

Ah and by the way Christ was wearing leather sandals ..lol not vegan....

God bless,
Philothei

[minasoliman]

Dear Repentant,

That is true. I'm sorry, I used an extreme view, although as you say, "not prominent." That is why I don't reject the excessive use of meat (as I am personally guilty of sometimes, since I LOVE meat).

In addition, our digestive system wasn't also made for strictly carnivorous meals as well, although not strictly for herbivorous meals either.

God bless.

[Photios]

As an aside, I was wondering if anyone else knows that wonderful lady who goes by the name of Marian the Vegetarian?

[VickiY]

Scripture certainly condones eating meat. On the other hand, the meat eaten at the time was organic free range meat. Meat was also rarely eaten, and folk raised their animals themselves, which gave them a greater understanding and care of them than we have now. It is hard to feel empathy for a little package of cellophane-wrapped refrigerated meat, but if you have cared for and raised that package from the time it was a chicken, one has a greater incentive to be merciful and not to abuse the animals it came from.

[kamikat]

Now, on the other hand, I've heard arguments like "our teeth were made to be vegetarians" or "it's healthier to be vegetarians," I personally cannot fight against that, as I would be obliged scientifically to agree

There's a huge difference between being a vegetarian for health reasons and being a vegetarian because of medical issues. I've heard people say being a vegetarian is healthier, but when asked for specifics, the studies don't really show it. On the other hand, there are real medical problems that are irritated by consumation of animal products, mainly things like gall bladder disease, Chron's disease, ulcerative colitis, irritible bowl syndrom. In these cases, the body can't process animal fats in the normal way, or the fats trigger symptoms.

[stivvy]

Animal rights. Thee. I said it. Plants do not do not feel pain. They are not conscious beings with personalities. They do not love, feel happy, fear, feel pain, feel sadness.

Yes, this also includes buying vegan shoes, making an effort to drive less and use more mass transit, an effort to buy non-sweatshop clothing, etc.

Plants don't have feelings????

http://www.gardenseeker.com/do_plants_have_feelings_.htm


The Sensitive Plant (Mimosa pudica). In this case, the foliage simply collapses when disturbed. Like the Possum (An animal) it plays dead! When the danger is over, the plant's leaves become normal again.

There are others - many others!

Plants do not have muscle tissue - as we know it - so how do they do it? With the Venus Fly Trap, it is a matter of hydraulics. Water is pumped into various portions of the leaves, just like the bucket on a JCB digger closing up when oil is pumped along pipes by a motor.

Something in the plant, instructs it to do this! It is a very clever 'something'; because the instruction is activated when a trigger hair on the plant's leaves is touched. It is even more thought provoking, when you realise that the action does not take place with a single touch. It needs to be touched twice - or two hairs need to be touched. This prevents the plant from wasting energy each time a bit of 'dead' debris falls into its leaf trap. It needs something that moves, like a tasty fly, or insect. The hapless insect cannot help but to touch two of the hairs as it tries to escape. Too late! The interlocking leaves fold over, the insect is digested, and after a day or so, the leaves open up again to allow the remains of the insect to be discarded.

Darwin was fascinated by carnivorous plants, in particular the Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula) and its response touch. He believed that the way the plant snapped its trap shut indicated the presence of a central nervous system - such as that of an animal.
Between 1960 and 1970, Burdon-Sanderson conducted many experiments on the Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula). The first experiment, and possibly the most remarkably revealing of all, was to attach electrodes to the surface of the trap lobes in the hope of recording electrical activity. He found that each time a trigger hair was touched it fired off a wave of electrical activity almost identical to the nerve impulses, or action potentials, produced by animal neurons. This experiment was carried out on the Sundew and Sensitive plant - with similar conclusions!

Now with modern day equipment, plant physiologists are beginning to understand much more about plant movement. It has been confirmed that the impulses Burdon-Sanderson detected are indeed action potentials similar to those in animals, they are also now beginning to unravel the molecular and cellular reasons of the ability of plants to respond to touch.

Touch sensitive movement is known to occur in over 1,000 different species of plants. Other common ones are the tendrils of peas, which curl towards a 'touch', and of course the twining stems of beans.


Now to me this is silly to even bring up, but you know I have to be right so I have to prove myself. Hehehe...

Anyways, so the clothing on your back has no animal biproduct in it? The soap you use either? What about your car you buy, is it free of any animal bi products in the materials used on the inside? Why even own a car or contribute to public transportation, get a bike, but make sure it is free of the things too.

How about that bible of yours, came from a tree that got killed to make it. Do you like sports? Are you financialy supporting it through watching the commericals and buying items where the money goes back to it? They use animal bi products and skin for the balls and uniforms and such.

I am not picking on you, but I want you to see the slippery slope you are creating for yourself. It can drive you crazy trying to be so extreme.

[JustinHesychast]

And this is why life sucks.

[JustinHesychast]

There isn't even a reason for me not to eat the dog I love so much. Other people do.

Ugh. God.

[stivvy]

Brother, out of love, this is why I asked you in the past to focus on God more and quite being soooo concerned on everythign here. Be heavenly not earthly!

I was explaining to our Western friends that this is a big difference in East and West is the attitude we take on God's creation. The East see all that God creates as "GOOD" and the West sees the evils in things more prevailing. Look at the GOOD.

We can still be good stewarts of the earth and be good to all God's cretaures and still not be hateful over man's use of God's gifts. The practice is not to abuse our privaledge over them. It is the defination of abuse that is a divide amny times. I personaly don't feel the earth is abused to the extreme many shout about. Can we do better, yes, but to tear ourselves apart over trying to go to extremes is sinful in my opinion.

Balance, brother, Balance!

[JustinHesychast]

Good? Where?

And yes, the earth is terrible abused and people need to shout about it to do something about it. Like that'll happen.

[stivvy]

It is tiresome to constently deal with negativism. All God gives us here and created is what is Good. It is how you take it and use it and your attitude that the bad comes out. Look beyond those things Satan puts in your heart that are evil and surround it with the many more things that are good.

Letting the bad of the earth overwhelm your life is sinful in that you have free-will to focus on it or on God and the many more good things He wants you to recognize.

[Philothei]

It is tiresome to constently dael with negativism. All God gives us here and create dis what is Good. It is how you tak eit and use it and your attitude that the bad comes out. Look beyond those things Satan puts in your heart that are evil and surround it with the many more things that are good.

Letting the bad of the earth overwhelm your life is sinful in that you have free will to focus on it or on God and the many more good things He wants you to recognize.
I would like to add that change starts with ourselves and our attitude towards the world. We are not here to "complain" about the wrongs rather to actively participate and be stewards in the creation. Yes, I agree we have responsibility that is why "we" as citizens form policy, we also vote for our representatives to our Gov't.

So, our responsibility rests upon those people who are elected if they are falling short of their "calling" then they will be accountable to God for how they take care of God's creation, not us. Chrst said whatever belongs to Ceasar leave it up to Ceasar. Some policy relies on us and some does not. And IMO that is where it stops.

So there, do not waste your energy on things you cannot change rather change yourself and your attitude over things. You can be an example to those around you and to your family about issues. Praying for the polution and for other issues also is a powerful tool. Change comes from whithin and outwordly. We are God's stewards ... I do not think he is in need of any lawyers though.


God bless,
Philothei

[stivvy]

I would like to add that change starts with ourselves and our attitude towards the world. We are not here to "complain" about the wrongs rather to actively participate and be stewards in the creation. Yes, I agree we have responsibility that is why "we" as citizens form policy, we also vote for our representatives to our Gov't.

So, our responsibility rests upon those people who are elected if they are falling short of their "calling" then they will be accountable to God for how they take care of God's creation, not us. Chrst said whatever belongs to Ceasar leave it up to Ceasar. Some policy relies on us and some does not. And IMO that is where it stops.

So there, do not waste your energy on things you cannot change rather change yourself and your attitude over things. You can be an example to those around you and to your family about issues. Praying for the polution and for other issues also is a powerful tool. Change comes from whithin and outwordly. We are God's stewards ... I do not think he is in need of any lawyers though.


God bless,
Philothei
:amen: :amen: :amen: Yeah, what she said! :P

[Auntie]

It is tiresome to constently deal with negativism. All God gives us here and created is what is Good. It is how you take it and use it and your attitude that the bad comes out. Look beyond those things Satan puts in your heart that are evil and surround it with the many more things that are good.

Letting the bad of the earth overwhelm your life is sinful in that you have free-will to focus on it or on God and the many more good things He wants you to recognize.


Good post. :) The word "thankful" keeps coming to my mind. I grew up very poor, and often very hungry. I learned to be very thankful for whatever food God provided for me and my family. :) All food is a blessing from God.

[Theophorus]

Good? Where?

And yes, the earth is terrible abused and people need to shout about it to do something about it. Like that'll happen.

Maybe someone should evangelize lions, tigers and bears. The creation is fallen and abnormal and groans....

The virtues of vegetarianism, or not shedding blood for nourishment, virginity, becoming as a child etc. are related to the patristic teachings of paradise/the garden of Eden.

Maybe you should look into them.

[Hoser03]

Instead of worrying about plants and animals when there's nothing you can do why not worry about the same stuff every other 15 year old boy worries about? Factory farming is not going to change, it helps keep food costs down and provides for those with less. If you struggled to make ends meet would you want someone telling you that already expensive food should be even higher priced because they aren't treating some dumb as a door knob cow well enough for your standards? You're 15 years old, go and enjoy being alive and stop wasting your time worrying about silly things that no one is ever going to change.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Well, define judge. Because if I go vegan, I will think that it is the right thing to do, and that everyone else should. I will be an activist (but no protests... those are silly). But I will not form an opinion prematurely on anyone who isn't vegan, and I will not look down on them if they are not--though I will think they should be vegan.

Did that make sense? O_o

If you replace "vegan" with "Christian," that sounds very familiar. ;) Sounds good to me.

There's a huge difference between being a vegetarian for health reasons and being a vegetarian because of medical issues. I've heard people say being a vegetarian is healthier, but when asked for specifics, the studies don't really show it. On the other hand, there are real medical problems that are irritated by consumation of animal products, mainly things like gall bladder disease, Chron's disease, ulcerative colitis, irritible bowl syndrom. In these cases, the body can't process animal fats in the normal way, or the fats trigger symptoms.

That's one reason why I figure fasting will be good for me. I seem to have IBS, and can't tolerate large amounts of animal fat. (It's a good thing I'm not Irish, because I can't eat corned beef.) Cutting back on dairy is also supposed to help with that. I haven't seen a doctor because I can keep it under control if I don't eat too much animal fat. So even though I'm told by the people at church that it's quite common for people to only do meat fasts, I intend to eventually get to a full meat/dairy fast. It'll probably be good for me to spend a third of the year not touching those things.

But I still can't wait until I can have chicken nuggets again. :P

[Jacob4707]

But I still can't wait until I can have chicken nuggets again. :P

Frankenfood. :help: