Baptist Denominations and Soteriology

[JimfromOhio]

One of the main reasons I like the Baptist denominations is that they have a strong emphasis on the concept of salvation that emphasis on evangelism and missions. However, the Baptist view of soteriology can be from Calvinism to Arminianism. How do you know which local Baptist Churches follow Arminianism? Calvinism? Freewill? Reformed?

I think its a good time to discuss better understanding of what kind of Baptist church you attend and what form of soteriology does your local church believe in.

[Seeker of the Truth]

I wish my Church was a little more clear on what they "preach."

I go to a Fundamental Baptist Church, so you could imagine that it's a "our way or the highway" sort of attitude.

Recently, my Church has, well, accumulated some negative "brownie points" and I'm currently looking for a Church like the early Church (pre-Nicene).

Although I like my Church, the cookie doesn't fit the mold, if you know what I mean...

[JimfromOhio]

I wish my Church was a little more clear on what they "preach."

I go to a Fundamental Baptist Church, so you could imagine that it's a "our way or the highway" sort of attitude.

Recently, my Church has, well, accumulated some negative "brownie points" and I'm currently looking for a Church like the early Church (pre-Nicene).

Although I like my Church, the cookie doesn't fit the mold, if you know what I mean...

God is NOT not interested in making "cookie-cutter" Christians because we are not all alike. If you are looking for a church that "fits" with your own theology and doctrines, you won't, so you might as well as start an "indepedent fundamentalist church" as many have started over the years.

[Seeker of the Truth]

God is NOT not interested in making "cookie-cutter" Christians because we are not all alike. If you are looking for a church that "fits" with your own theology and doctrines, you won't, so you might as well as start an "indepedent fundamentalist church" as many have started over the years.

I certainly didn't imply that "cookie-cutter" Christians are what I'm looking for. I meant that the Church back at home isn't what I need, nor is it what I'm looking for in a Church.

I'm not looking for a Church that fits my theology as I'm only 18 and still learning exactly what I believe. I want to find a Church that mimics the early Church that Christ and the Apostles started. I really don't like denominations, they're like splinters. Everybody is about doctrine nowadays, but I just want to go to a real Church where you can be yourself and worship God with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm tired of Church's splitting over one little doctrinal issue, it's ridiculous! Sure, doctrine is important. However, when people go to Church just to hear doctrine, well, that isn't what Church is.

[JimfromOhio]

I certainly didn't imply that "cookie-cutter" Christians are what I'm looking for. I meant that the Church back at home isn't what I need, nor is it what I'm looking for in a Church.

I'm not looking for a Church that fits my theology as I'm only 18 and still learning exactly what I believe. I want to find a Church that mimics the early Church that Christ and the Apostles started. I really don't like denominations, they're like splinters. Everybody is about doctrine nowadays, but I just want to go to a real Church where you can be yourself and worship God with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm tired of Church's splitting over one little doctrinal issue, it's ridiculous! Sure, doctrine is important. However, when people go to Church just to hear doctrine, well, that isn't what Church is.

We all are different. People are different and people have different needs. There are many Christian cultures because there are Christians who will follow their conscience, feelings, beliefs and personal worship preferences. It is important to remember that we ALL are different and in each of our Christian experience, there is no pattern or formula for identical Christian experiences. A church is an assembly of believers and is made up of real spiritual people. Many people are forgetting the REAL purpose of the CHURCH. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important. It appear that most of us are in an agreement that "Church, Tradition and Bible" are important. One thing we forget is God. Worship is to be personal, in spirit and the focus should be on GOD only. Worship to me is DAILY and Sundays are my worship with my fellow believers. When we worship in Church, we focus on God and no one else. When we worship God in image, we are to "Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy." (Psalm 99:9).

I never found "the perfect local Church" I want but God lead me to a wonderful local church for me. I may not agree with "every doctrines" but I do agree with most of the "major doctrines".

[RichardT]

Freewill OSAS.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Freewill OSAS.
lol

please, this sounds like it's going to be a good thread, nobody start anything.

[DeaconDean]

I attend a church that preaches and teaches God's sovereign grace. :preach:

Lately, I'm beginning to wonder if anybody believes this any more. :scratch:

God Bless

Till all are one.

[mlqurgw]

I attend a church that preaches and teaches God's sovereign grace. :preach:

Lately, I'm beginning to wonder if anybody believes this any more. :scratch:

God Bless

Till all are one.
Free will works theology is by far the majority of soteriological belief among Baptists today but that was not always the case. One of the reasons I believe sovereign grace is truth is that it isn't the majority belief. God's people have never been the majority in any age. I am greatly encouraged by the fact that there does seem to be a revival of truth among Baptists as well as others. As evidenced by the overwhelming downloads of sermons on websites that proclaim God's sovereignty in salvation from all over the world. God does seem to be moving and blessing His Word. Acts 2:47

[Phileoeklogos]

Southern Baptist Church, Sovereign Grace, yeah we're still out there, and growing..........

[Seeker of the Truth]

Free will works theology is by far the majority of soteriological belief among Baptists today but that was not always the case. One of the reasons I believe sovereign grace is truth is that it isn't the majority belief. God's people have never been the majority in any age. I am greatly encouraged by the fact that there does seem to be a revival of truth among Baptists as well as others. As evidenced by the overwhelming downloads of sermons on websites that proclaim God's sovereignty in salvation from all over the world. God does seem to be moving and blessing His Word. Acts 2:47
Actually, the Church history depicts a pattern among Free-Will/Predestination beliefs.

At the time Christ and the Apostles started the Church, it was Free-Will

When Luther and Calvin came around, Predestination took the stage.

Now, Free-Will is probably takes the majority vote.

[JimfromOhio]

Actually, the Church history depicts a pattern among Free-Will/Predestination beliefs.

At the time Christ and the Apostles started the Church, it was Free-Will

When Luther and Calvin came around, Predestination took the stage.

Now, Free-Will is probably takes the majority vote.

Where did you get this from? I don't think you fully understood Church History. "Are we chosen to be saved, or do we choose ourselves to be saved?" If you are saved, it is by God’s election and if you are damned, it is your own choice. Man chose sin while God chose us. John Murray, the theologian in Westminster Seminary once said "There is an apparent paradox in every biblical doctrine." the Bible teaches God’s predestining plan, God’s electing plan. It says that over and over, "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God, "elect" in Him. If you believe the Bible, because in Ephesians, He predestined us before the foundation of the world. In Revelation, He has written our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

Everyone believes in that, who believes the Bible. God predetermined who would be saved. Before they were ever born. That's in the Bible.

Believe or not Believe in the Word of God.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Where did you get this from? I don't think you fully understood Church History. "Are we chosen to be saved, or do we choose ourselves to be saved?" If you are saved, it is by God’s election and if you are damned, it is your own choice. Man chose sin while God chose us. John Murray, the theologian in Westminster Seminary once said "There is an apparent paradox in every biblical doctrine." the Bible teaches God’s predestining plan, God’s electing plan. It says that over and over, "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God, "elect" in Him. If you believe the Bible, because in Ephesians, He predestined us before the foundation of the world. In Revelation, He has written our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

Everyone believes in that, who believes the Bible. God predetermined who would be saved. Before they were ever born. That's in the Bible.

Believe or not Believe in the Word of God.
Whoa whoa whoa...

The early Church (pre-Nicene) taught that anybody could be saved. Not until Luther and Calvin did people start this whole depressing idea that only a select few can be saved.

[RichardT]

Where did you get this from? I don't think you fully understood Church History. "Are we chosen to be saved, or do we choose ourselves to be saved?" If you are saved, it is by God’s election and if you are damned, it is your own choice. Man chose sin while God chose us. John Murray, the theologian in Westminster Seminary once said "There is an apparent paradox in every biblical doctrine." the Bible teaches God’s predestining plan, God’s electing plan. It says that over and over, "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God, "elect" in Him. If you believe the Bible, because in Ephesians, He predestined us before the foundation of the world. In Revelation, He has written our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

Everyone believes in that, who believes the Bible. God predetermined who would be saved. Before they were ever born. That's in the Bible.

Believe or not Believe in the Word of God.

God obviously knows who's saved and who isn't saved based on his foreknowledge.

[mlqurgw]

Whoa whoa whoa...

The early Church (pre-Nicene) taught that anybody could be saved. Not until Luther and Calvin did people start this whole depressing idea that only a select few can be saved.Paul was pre-Nicene and he taught it. Augustine taught it. Calvin got much of his views from Augustine. Predestination doesn't exclude any, as you would suggest. Whosoever will may come. Only those who are elect will. The pre-Nicene writers were fighting other battles, predestination wasn't something they were trying to disprove. Keep this in mind as you read them.

[DeaconDean]

(deleted)

Never mind, what am I doing? :doh:

Forget it.

I'm sorry I posted.

I'm outta here too.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[MercyBurst]

One of the main reasons I like the Baptist denominations is that they have a strong emphasis on the concept of salvation that emphasis on evangelism and missions. However, the Baptist view of soteriology can be from Calvinism to Arminianism. How do you know which local Baptist Churches follow Arminianism? Calvinism? Freewill? Reformed?

I think its a good time to discuss better understanding of what kind of Baptist church you attend and what form of soteriology does your local church believe in.


Hello Jim -- we meet again. Here we are talking again about the only thing that really matters as a christian --their salvation.

I'm a baptist just south of you in Kentucky. If I am unsure about a church's doctrinal position then I ask the pastor. Once, I was a member of a large Christian mega church with two senior pastors that had differing views on eternal security. I struggled with it as a believer. Neither of them broached the subject from the pulpit. The congregation leaned toward eternal security.

Fundamental baptists hold to the doctrine of salvation by grace through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as personal savior.

Calvinism was a church splitter here in KY in recent years, and continues to be.

Like my pastor said, if everyone is predestinated (using the Calvinist interpretation of the word), why do anything? Why even bother preaching?

If God didn't know who will be saved, then He wouldn't be God. His salvation is available to all that will receive it, but He knows who they will be, or He wouldn't be God. Salvation is a mutual decision between both the believer and God.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Hello Jim -- we meet again. Here we are talking again about the only thing that really matters as a christian --their salvation.

I'm a baptist just south of you in Kentucky. If I am unsure about a church's doctrinal position then I ask the pastor. Once, I was a member of a large Christian mega church with two senior pastors that had differing views on eternal security. I struggled with it as a believer. Neither of them broached the subject from the pulpit. The congregation leaned toward eternal security.

Fundamental baptists hold to the doctrine of salvation by grace through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as personal savior.

Calvinism was a church splitter here in KY in recent years, and continues to be.

Like my pastor said, if everyone is predestinated (using the Calvinist interpretation of the word), why do anything? Why even bother preaching?

If God didn't know who will be saved, then He wouldn't be God. His salvation is available to all that will receive it, but He knows who they will be, or He wouldn't be God. Salvation is a mutual decision between both the believer and God.
Exactly, and that is what the early Christians were teaching (pre-Nicene).

[BereanTodd]

Like my pastor said, if everyone is predestinated (using the Calvinist interpretation of the word), why do anything? Why even bother preaching?

That cop-out infuriates me so much. It's such a straw man. God did not only predestine the ends (the elect, who would be saved), but also the means. God could have chosen to reveal Himself to those whom He would draw to salvation by some other means - He did with Paul. But He has chosen to use the foolishness of our preaching as His means to draw the elect to salvation.

Like Spurgeon said, if God made the elect with yellow stripes down their back we could go around pulling shirt-tails up and preaching to them only, but He hasn't, He has commanded us to preach to all of creation, and we do, and the Spirit uses that to draw the elect to Him.

Ephesians 1:4, 11 We were chosen before the foundations of the earth. Chosen predestined, it is in your Bible, you just ignore it.

[TwistTim]

Southern Baptist - OSAS Provisionally..... that is, if you are a true convert and not a false one. Because if you could fall out of the hands of God, you couldn't be saved again (Hebrews 6, after the 6-9... keep reading the chapter), as you'd be killing Christ twice (or more depending on your sin count)... and that Nothing can separate us from the Love of God (Romans 8:38-39) and that Jesus keeps us in His Hand, and the Fathers hand is around that (John 10:25-30) There is more I could say, I wish I had taken notes on Sunday Night, because this was just preached, alas and alack I did not. I will include the scriptures I referenced Below (NIV because that's what the default version on BibleGateway.com is)

A True Convert is someone who has repented of their sins, and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Savior from their truly wickedly depraved sin nature. A false convert is one who comes to the fold any other way.(John 10:1)

John 10:1
1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."

Romans 8:38-39
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:38-39&version=31#fen-NIV-28140a)] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Hebrews 6: 4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206&version=31#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


John10:25-30
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010&version=31#fen-NIV-26500d)]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

[MercyBurst]

That cop-out infuriates me so much. It's such a straw man. God did not only predestine the ends (the elect, who would be saved), but also the means. God could have chosen to reveal Himself to those whom He would draw to salvation by some other means - He did with Paul. But He has chosen to use the foolishness of our preaching as His means to draw the elect to salvation.

Like Spurgeon said, if God made the elect with yellow stripes down their back we could go around pulling shirt-tails up and preaching to them only, but He hasn't, He has commanded us to preach to all of creation, and we do, and the Spirit uses that to draw the elect to Him.

Ephesians 1:4, 11 We were chosen before the foundations of the earth. Chosen predestined, it is in your Bible, you just ignore it.

I sat in a Presbyterian church for years where I was preached predestination. No invitation was ever offered for salvation. I remember thinking to myself -- well there's nothing I can do -- it's all up to God. So I sat and I sat and I sat. If I had died in that church there is no question about it, I would have gone to hell. Nobody ever talked about salvation. NEVER.

What a wasted life I had in the Calvinist church for all those years. Thank God I left that place. Thank God a Baptist offered salvation to this dieing soul, but the damage that was already done from waiting so long. I was not living in God's will. You might argue that I was under the predestination umbrella -- I say no way!!!

The thing that really gets screwy with Calvinism is that it makes everything God's fault: He predestinated us to sin -- we have no control over it because it is God's sovereign will that we go around sinning. It's all God's fault with Calvinism, where He died on the cross for His own mistake, not ours.

[JimfromOhio]

I sat in a Presbyterian church for years where I was preached predestination. No invitation was ever offered for salvation. I remember thinking to myself -- well there's nothing I can do -- it's all up to God. So I sat and I sat and I sat. If I had died in that church there is no question about it, I would have gone to hell. Nobody ever talked about salvation. NEVER.

What a wasted life I had in the Calvinist church for all those years. Thank God I left that place. Thank God a Baptist offered salvation to this dieing soul, but the damage that was already done from waiting so long. I was not living in God's will. You might argue that I was under the predestination umbrella -- I say no way!!!

The thing that really gets screwy with Calvinism is that it makes everything God's fault: He predestinated us to sin -- we have no control over it because it is God's sovereign will that we go around sinning. It's all God's fault with Calvinism, where He died on the cross for His own mistake, not ours.

Salvation is limited in a church? I believe salvation happens everywhere and anytime, even the unusual situations.

My problem for a church to "invite" is replacing the Holy Spirit's work of "inviting" which is the conviction. If a person is convicted, God needs no help from us.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Salvation is limited in a church? I believe salvation happens everywhere and anytime, even the unusual situations.

My problem for a church to "invite" is replacing the Holy Spirit's work of "inviting" which is the conviction. If a person is convicted, God needs no help from us.
Well, good job avoiding his point.

[BereanTodd]

I sat in a Presbyterian church for years where I was preached predestination. No invitation was ever offered for salvation. I remember thinking to myself -- well there's nothing I can do -- it's all up to God. So I sat and I sat and I sat. If I had died in that church there is no question about it, I would have gone to hell. Nobody ever talked about salvation. NEVER.

First off, I don't agree with either Presbyterian or reformed theology. Secondly, that is an experience at one church and you are using it to color your opinion of all churches. Thirdly I know many churches of many denominations (including baptist) who do not have invitations, and it is not a Calvinist-Arminian thing, it is merely a pro-con debate about the efficacy of invitations. When I preach I personally use an invitation of some sort.

What a wasted life I had in the Calvinist church for all those years. Thank God I left that place. Thank God a Baptist offered salvation to this dieing soul, but the damage that was already done from waiting so long. I was not living in God's will. You might argue that I was under the predestination umbrella -- I say no way!!!

You do realize that a great many baptist churches are calvinistic in their theology. The head of many of our baptist seminaries are calvinist.

The thing that really gets screwy with Calvinism is that it makes everything God's fault: He predestinated us to sin -- we have no control over it because it is God's sovereign will that we go around sinning. It's all God's fault with Calvinism, where He died on the cross for His own mistake, not ours.

We are morally culpable for our own actions. Your straw man here is a dead horse - a stinking, rotting, fly-infested dead horse - that has been beaten a million times by others. Your argument is not with me it is with Scripture. The only two biblical options are either predestination or else universalism. Since we know hell exists plainly in Scripture the latter is not possible.

[MercyBurst]

First off, I don't agree with either Presbyterian or reformed theology.

Neither do I.


Secondly, that is an experience at one church and you are using it to color your opinion of all churches.


No, that is my experience with one calvinist church and I am using it to color all of calvinist churches. Calvinism was taking me to hell. The doctrine offered me no hope of salvation whatsoever. NO HOPE PERIOD. Thank God I got out of there. When I got out of there I got saved -- no thanks whatsoever to that elisit doctrine that cares nothing for the soul of man. It sure didn't care for mine.

Thirdly I know many churches of many denominations (including baptist) who do not have invitations, and it is not a Calvinist-Arminian thing, it is merely a pro-con debate about the efficacy of invitations. When I preach I personally use an invitation of some sort.

I won't join a church that doesn't have an invitation.

You do realize that a great many baptist churches are calvinistic in their theology. The head of many of our baptist seminaries are calvinist.

Yes, and we are struggling with the damage this has caused our churches here in Kentucky - it's the number one church splitter here.


We are morally culpable for our own actions.

Not if we are predestinated Calvinists. Calvanism is religious fatalism. Study the philosophy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

Your straw man here is a dead horse - a stinking, rotting, fly-infested dead horse - that has been beaten a million times by others. Your argument is not with me it is with Scripture. The only two biblical options are either predestination or else universalism. Since we know hell exists plainly in Scripture the latter is not possible.

When I got out of the Calvinist doctrine I found out I could make a decision for Christ. Lucky me -- I followed through on a third option that you and your Calvinist doctrine never offered me. :angel:

Whosoever will may come... thank you Lord. I wasn't thinking about predestination when I got saved, so I guess I got saved on a false premise... huh?

[BereanTodd]

No, that is my experience with one calvinist church and I am using it to color all of calvinist churches.

However you color it, you are judging all by the experience of one, and that is very poor form. My first experience with church (I grew up atheist) was a very legalistic one. If I let that color my view of all Christians I would have NEVER come to know the Lord.

I could similarly say "well episcopals are basically arminian in theology, and they accept homosexuals, so all arminian churches are ungodly."

Calvinism was taking me to hell. The doctrine offered me no hope of salvation whatsoever. NO HOPE PERIOD. Thank God I got out of there.

No your own sin was taking you to hell, and one church (at least according to your testimony) was doing a darn poor job of reaching you. For that I am sorry.

In case you didn't realize it, many of the largest missionary movements in history, and some of the greatest soul-winning preachers ever have been Calvinists.

I wasn't thinking about predestination when I got saved, so I guess I got saved on a false premise... huh?

You don't have to accept predestination or calvinism to be saved my friend, you have to accept Jesus Christ.

The problem is, Romans 3 tells us that NO MAN seeks God, Ephesians 2 and other passages that we are Spiritually DEAD. The question then is can someone who doesn't seek God ever accept Him? Or is Romans 3 mistaken?

[PrincetonGuy]

Paul was pre-Nicene and he taught it. Augustine taught it.
Augustine taught that there are two groups of Christians—those who are predestined to be saved and those who are saved by their own choice by grace through faith. And let us not forget that Augustine taught prevenient grace and sacramental grace. Paul, of course, taught that some Christians are predestined to be saved and that others are saved by their own choice, but that even after their salvation, those who are predestined by God have the obligation before God to continue to believe in and obey Christ lest they ultimately lose their salvation.

Gal. 1:15. But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16. to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17. nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 9:25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (NASB, 1995)
Calvin got much of his views from Augustine.
Calvin, like Martin Luther, was a Roman Catholic and Saint Augustine was his favorite Catholic writer. But unlike Luther, Calvin was not educated in theology, but in law and the humanities. And, of course, Martin Luther never accepted Calvin’s views of predestination.

The pre-Nicene writers were fighting other battles, predestination wasn't something they were trying to disprove. Keep this in mind as you read them.
Calvin’s concept of predestination was first conceived in the 16th century so the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers didn’t have the concept to disprove it. However, the concept of free-will was very well known to them and they wrote of it extensively.

[PrincetonGuy]

I sat in a Presbyterian church for years where I was preached predestination. No invitation was ever offered for salvation. I remember thinking to myself -- well there's nothing I can do -- it's all up to God. So I sat and I sat and I sat. If I had died in that church there is no question about it, I would have gone to hell. Nobody ever talked about salvation. NEVER.

What a wasted life I had in the Calvinist church for all those years. Thank God I left that place. Thank God a Baptist offered salvation to this dieing soul, but the damage that was already done from waiting so long. I was not living in God's will. You might argue that I was under the predestination umbrella -- I say no way!!!

The thing that really gets screwy with Calvinism is that it makes everything God's fault: He predestinated us to sin -- we have no control over it because it is God's sovereign will that we go around sinning. It's all God's fault with Calvinism, where He died on the cross for His own mistake, not ours.

This post reminds me of the vast multitudes of Christians who grew up believing that they were predestined to be saved but who subsequently fell into various sins and consequently believed that they were not part of God’s elect after all and decided that they might as well live like the devil and enjoy it while they could. Had the concept of predestination as taught by John Calvin been introduced into the Church during the first three centuries there may not be any Christians today. A friend of mine who was a staunchly Calvinistic Presbyterian pastor shot himself in the head and died. His death certificate does not say that it was an accidental shooting.

[PrincetonGuy]

The only two biblical options are either predestination or else universalism. Since we know hell exists plainly in Scripture the latter is not possible.

There is only one Biblical option—it is the same Biblical truth that God has been teaching from the beginning and has taught through the entire history of the Church. By the grace of God, salvation is offered to every man who chooses, according to his own will, to believe the truth and act favorably upon it. The greatest of all sins is to reject the gift of salvation, and no man was predestined to reject that gift, either passively or actively.

God predestined Paul to salvation and I know what that is like because He predestined me and my experience was similar to Paul’s experience, but God did NOT force Paul to do anything, nor has He forced me to do anything although I have experienced the hand of God upon me in a very physical and compelling manner.

[eldermike]

This post reminds me of the vast multitudes of Christians who grew up believing that they were predestined to be saved but who subsequently fell into various sins and consequently believed that they were not part of God’s elect after all and decided that they might as well live like the devil and enjoy it while they could. Had the concept of predestination as taught by John Calvin been introduced into the Church during the first three centuries there may not be any Christians today. A friend of mine who was a staunchly Calvinistic Presbyterian pastor shot himself in the head and died. His death certificate does not say that it was an accidental shooting.

So can I assume from your post that this one poor man is the vast multitude your talking about?

I do ministry work, I have yet to run into a single one of these from the vast multitude.
I'll tell you what I do see, often. Christians who have been told they were not saved because of some sin they got caught up in. There is a bunch of those. Many legalistic churches bury thier wounded, those I see every day.

[MercyBurst]

You don't have to accept predestination or calvinism to be saved my friend, you have to accept Jesus Christ.

The problem is, Romans 3 tells us that NO MAN seeks God, Ephesians 2 and other passages that we are Spiritually DEAD. The question then is can someone who doesn't seek God ever accept Him? Or is Romans 3 mistaken?

I know for a fact that I sought to make peace with God, but I just didn't know how to go about it until someone gave me the plan of salvation. I understand no man can come to the Lord unless the Lord draws them. On the otherhand God's promises are offered for all of humanity.

I firmly believe there are people in hell that refused the Lord's calling. It is their fault that they are in hell. God did not choose hell for them. They chose hell for themselves. They have nobody to blame but themselves. If I believe predestination (the Calvinist way), then I must blame God because the sinner is not at fault. Nobody ever chose to be a sinner except A&E. The rest of us were born that way.

However we all have the opportunity to choose righteousness through Jesus Christ. We don't have to wonder if we're second guessing God's will or not. It's God's will that all become righteous:

2 Peter 3:9 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B61C003.htm#V9)The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance


Now if I were a calvinist the verse would be written this way:

2 Peter 3:9 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B61C003.htm#V9)The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering only to the elect and not to anyone else, not willing that any of the chosen few should perish, but that the elite should come to repentance and nobody else because everyone else is for-ordained to damnation. They don't get a chance and that's too bad. :o

[edb19]

I attend a church that preaches and teaches God's sovereign grace. :preach:

Lately, I'm beginning to wonder if anybody believes this any more. :scratch:

God Bless

Till all are one.

If it helps, I believe that.

edie

[JPPT1974]

Remember salvation can happen to
People like Paul after he went from Saul
Perscuting Christians to loving them.

[mlqurgw]

Augustine taught that there are two groups of Christians—those who are predestined to be saved and those who are saved by their own choice by grace through faith. And let us not forget that Augustine taught prevenient grace and sacramental grace. Paul, of course, taught that some Christians are predestined to be saved and that others are saved by their own choice, but that even after their salvation, those who are predestined by God have the obligation before God to continue to believe in and obey Christ lest they ultimately lose their salvation.

Gal. 1:15. But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16. to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17. nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 9:25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (NASB, 1995)

Calvin, like Martin Luther, was a Roman Catholic and Saint Augustine was his favorite Catholic writer. But unlike Luther, Calvin was not educated in theology, but in law and the humanities. And, of course, Martin Luther never accepted Calvin’s views of predestination.


Calvin’s concept of predestination was first conceived in the 16th century so the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers didn’t have the concept to disprove it. However, the concept of free-will was very well known to them and they wrote of it extensively.
Cite your sources please. I intend to check.
If I remember correctly, Luther disagreed with Calvin on the Lord's supper but I don't recall anything about disagreeing on predestination. Again, if I remember correctly Calvin was a Roman Catholic priest. He was educated in theology. He was accepted even in his time as a theologian and has been for the centuries since by many scholars. Your contention that he was educated in law and humanities is moot. That by no means has any bearing on his status as a theologian. You should know better than to give such an argument.

[mlqurgw]

This post reminds me of the vast multitudes of Christians who grew up believing that they were predestined to be saved but who subsequently fell into various sins and consequently believed that they were not part of God’s elect after all and decided that they might as well live like the devil and enjoy it while they could. Had the concept of predestination as taught by John Calvin been introduced into the Church during the first three centuries there may not be any Christians today. A friend of mine who was a staunchly Calvinistic Presbyterian pastor shot himself in the head and died. His death certificate does not say that it was an accidental shooting.
Wow! For someone who wishes others to consider him a scholar this is the most absurd argument against predestination I have ever seen. I wonder how many Arminians have shot themselves and died because they couldn't do enough to get real peace?
This post is beneath your education and intelligence. I am truly surprised at it.

[Iosias]

If it helps, I believe that.

edie

As do I! :clap:

[sheina]

My husband and I are members of a very small Independent Fundamental Baptist Church in rural Mississippi. We are KJV/Pre-trib/Premil.

Our church is neither Calvinistic nor Arminian--we are Biblical.

From our Articles of Faith:

XI. THE FREENESS OF SALVATION


We believe in God's electing grace; that the blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel; that it is the immediate duty of all men to accept salvation by a cordial, penitent, and obedient faith; and that nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his own inherent depravity and voluntary rejection of the gospel, a rejection which involves the sinner in an aggravated condemnation.

Isa 55:1; Ezek 33:11; Mt 11:28; Lk 11:10; Jn 3:14-20,36; Jn 4:10; Jn 6:37; Jn 15:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:20-21; Acts 10:34-35; Acts 17:29-31; Rom 5;18; Rom 6:23; Rom 8:29-30; Rom 10:12-13; Eph 2:7-9; Tit 1:1-2; II Pt 3:9; Rev 3:20; Rev 22:17.


XV. THE RETURN OF CHRIST AND RELATED EVENTS

We believe Jesus Christ will physically return to the earth in like manner as He was seen to go into heaven: bodily, personally and visibly; that His Second Coming will be preceded by a chronology of Last Days' events - literal events, beginning with a pre-tribulational, pre-millennial calling out of all the redeemed: the Rapture; that the Rapture will terminate the dispensation of the New Testament Church, and will induce the time of Jacob's Trouble: a seven-year Tribulation Period and reign of antichrist; that the Tribulation will culminate with Armageddon: the final terrible event in world history when the Lord Jesus, with heaven's host, returns victoriously making the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; that upon the Second Coming of Christ, the Lord shall reign in righteousness on the earth for one thousand years, climaxing with the final condemnation of Satan and the last judgment of Revelation Chapter Twenty; and that, eternally thereafter, the Lord Jesus Christ shall reign for ever and ever.
Gen 18:25; Isa 11:4-10; Jer 23:5-6; Jer 30:6-10; Dan 7:23-27; Dan 9:24; Dan 12:1; Zech 14:9-11; Mt 24:3-31,36-51; Mt 25:31-33; Mt 26:64; Jn 5:22; Jn 14:2-4; Acts 1:9-11; I Cor 15:22-26,48-54; Phlp 3:20-21; I Ths 4:15-17; I Ths 5:1-9; II Tim 4:1; Tit 2:13; Heb 9:28; Heb 10:37; II Pt 3:10-13; Jude 14-15; Rev 1:17; Rev 16:16; Rev 20:1-15; Rev 22:20

I'm not permitted to post the link to the church site until I have 15 posts, or I would just give you the link.

I noticed in the OP that IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) is not listed amongst the other Baptist churches--was wondering why not?

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio :( <~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~stays away from churches that focuses on KJVOnly even though my primary Bible translation is NKJV and KJV when I study.