Nature of the Sacramental Life

[MrJim]

This is from "Dancing Alone":

"If worship is not a utilitarian means ot self-realization, but rather the means of becoming God-like, the point of life-and if all of life, including our suffering, is fundamentally sacramental-the the rationalis, utilitarian view of life is the exact opposite of what God intended for His creatures."

<<italics his>>
(Dancing Alone/Frank Schaeffer/pg 269 copyright 2002)

I think I have a glimpse of this, but can you explain fuller what is meant by life being sacramental?

[Knowledge3]

The ecclessiology of the Orthodox Church is bishop,priest,rector,deacon,subdeacon,laity and congregation. The life of the Church is centered in the holy and primitive Eucharist, we celebrate the mystical supper of the Lamb every Sunday during Divine Liturgy.

I call this a "eucharistic theory", the body and blood is mystically present by the administering of the sacrament(s) from the priesthood. (clergy)

Hope this helps.

Blessings, K3

[MrJim]

I understand the nature of the sacrament in the Eucharist-I was wondering more upon what Schaeffer is saying about "...the point of life...is sacramental", which seems to imply something more.

[kamikat]

I highly recommend reading For the Life of the World by Fr Alexander Schmemann. This book deals with the sacramental life. Basically, we believe that when Christ entered the Jordan River, he restored the sanctity of all of God's creation. We believe all of God's creation is sacred, that nothing is inherently evil, just how fallen man chooses to use such things. For example, dancing, music, art, ect. These are all things that certain Protestant denominations call evil, but we believe they can be used for God's glory. We also believe that anything can be used for God's glory. One can do dishes, garden, change babys' diapers, for God's glory! These activities can all be sacramental, if one does them with joy for the Lord in the heart.

[Orthosdoxa]

I second the Fr. Schemann book.

[MrJim]

OK the recommended word of kamikat and Orthosdoxa the Fr Schmemann book has been ordered and should be here by the end of the week.

Seems like wherever I turn around I'm catching a bad review of Schaeffer because it's "polemic". He's pretty tough on the Orthodox Church problems in the last chapter-it's not as though he's exactly painting a perfect picture. I've enjoyed the read (yeah, he didn't exactly have nice things to say about anabaptists;) ) for what it is.

I remember reading "Sham Pearls for Real Swine" from his protestant days--I wouldn't expect anything but Franky style...:)

[Philothei]

OK the recommended word of kamikat and Orthosdoxa the Fr Schmemann book has been ordered and should be here by the end of the week.

Seems like wherever I turn around I'm catching a bad review of Schaeffer because it's "polemic". He's pretty tough on the Orthodox Church problems in the last chapter-it's not as though he's exactly painting a perfect picture. I've enjoyed the read (yeah, he didn't exactly have nice things to say about anabaptists;) ) for what it is.

I remember reading "Sham Pearls for Real Swine" from his protestant days--I wouldn't expect anything but Franky style...:)
I know the man personally and heard him lecturing. He is pretty nice and convencing but he is polemical. He is pretty contraversial too. If you find him too much to handle leave it for a while and do read Fr. Schmeman. Or pick up Fr. Peter Gilguist books. I think he is more mellow.

In my interpetation of what he is saying is that life in Orthodox view or world view is not mere utilitarian that is we live just to have a good time, to "enjoy" worship, to enjoy our children etc. rather we see life as an "euharistia" thankfullness to God. God is an end for us not the other way around. We "use" God for our means.

Hope it made sense.

God bless,
Philothei

[choirfiend]

In Orthodoxy, there is no "limited" number of sacraments. We have the same 7 major ones as the RCC (mostly....our chrismation and unction differ some in application) but boxing the grace of God into ONLY those 7 actions isn't an accurate representation of our belief, though it may occur because of our proximity with RCCism in recent (last 200) years. Our lives themselves are to be sacramental, participants in and instruments of the grace of the Holy Spirit, the body of Christ, the sons by adoption of the Father.

[MrJim]

I know the man personally and heard him lecturing. He is pretty nice and convencing but he is polemical. He is pretty contraversial too. If you find him too much to handle leave it for a while and do read Fr. Schmeman. Or pick up Fr. Peter Gilguist books. I think he is more mellow.

In my interpetation of what he is saying is that life in Orthodox view or world view is not mere utilitarian that is we live just to have a good time, to "enjoy" worship, to enjoy our children etc. rather we see life as an "euharistia" thankfullness to God. God is an end for us not the other way around. We "use" God for our means.

Hope it made sense.

God bless,
Philothei

(I'm rereading Becoming Orthodox (Gillquist) after the last couple of pages of Dancing Alone...sometime I have to read again The Way of a Pilgrim, that's what started this whole thing^_^ )

Schaeffer talks about the difference between the typical austere protestant (particularly I think among baptist & anabaptist churches) worship service being made into an almost buddhist atmosphere in that worship must only be "spiritual". Now the scripture, in John 4 I think, speaks of worshipping God in spirit and in truth, and maybe that's some of where the idea that worship should be without any "physical aids", and that many modern buildings are built more for utility than any sense toward creating a worship aura...my anabaptist side will automatically cringe a bit at pomp, but then Schaeffer said that was the same response Judas had when the spikenard was poured out upon Jesus...just musing a bit. I can tell you that the typical baptist worship I attend is really starting to seem really lean and sparse...and "jazzing" it up with drums and lights (thankfully not being done) wouldn't help it a bit-I can see there has to be more than this...

Now the idea that all of creation is a sacrament of God to us isn't limited to Orthodoxy-I learned in my Calvinist days [:blush:] of the teaching that all things done are to be done for the glory of God. Though there is an idea amongst evangelicals that "full time Christian service" is the ultimate in serving God, I learned from the Presbys/Reformed that all work done glorifies God if done in the right spirit...is this compatible with the nature of the Sacramental life?

[Orthosdoxa]

all work done glorifies God if done in the right spirit...is this compatible with the nature of the Sacramental life?

interesting question... I don't know that it's downright INcompatible, but I would say the main focus of the sacramental life is communion with God leading to Theosis.

[kamikat]

interesting question... I don't know that it's downright INcompatible, but I would say the main focus of the sacramental life is communion with God leading to Theosis.

Hmmm, I would say it isn't incompatible at all. What about the little old ladies going about their day, cooking, baking, doing laundry while singing the hymns of the Church? What about people going about their day, with the Jesus prayer in running through their heads?

[Orthosdoxa]

Those are good too. :)

[choirfiend]

Yes, I would say your comment is compatible--but not complete. Its not ONLY about us glorifying God and obeying His will, but the nature of His acting with and in us by His grace---truly SACRAMENTAL, not missing the mystery component.

I'm not sure if your history comes into play here, but so far I dont see you really taking on and understanding what we mean by sacramental---completely acceptable for someone from an anti-sacramental tradition. And I think Fr. Alexander's book WILL be quite useful for you.

[Mary of Bethany]

(I'm rereading Becoming Orthodox (Gillquist) after the last couple of pages of Dancing Alone...sometime I have to read again The Way of a Pilgrim, that's what started this whole thing^_^ )

Schaeffer talks about the difference between the typical austere protestant (particularly I think among baptist & anabaptist churches) worship service being made into an almost buddhist atmosphere in that worship must only be "spiritual". Now the scripture, in John 4 I think, speaks of worshipping God in spirit and in truth, and maybe that's some of where the idea that worship should be without any "physical aids", and that many modern buildings are built more for utility than any sense toward creating a worship aura...my anabaptist side will automatically cringe a bit at pomp, but then Schaeffer said that was the same response Judas had when the spikenard was poured out upon Jesus...just musing a bit. I can tell you that the typical baptist worship I attend is really starting to seem really lean and sparse...and "jazzing" it up with drums and lights (thankfully not being done) wouldn't help it a bit-I can see there has to be more than this...


(snip)

I think it's very telling that Baptist and most non-denom types, don't even have a "sanctuary" anymore. They have "auditoriums". 'Nuf said.

[ProfChrysostomos]

Let me interject a few thoughts here.

Living a sacramental lifestyle includes, but is not limited to, being a participant in the rites dubbed the holy mysteries of the Church. The mysteries of the Church, or the sacraments as we know them, are all visible signs of a deeper, more sublime reality that we call THE Mystery, which is none other than the Person of Christ and the divine economy, or God's plan of salvation, wrought through Him.

When we talk about the meaning of life being sacramental, we mean that man finds his true fulfillment and meaning in life when he understands and voluntarily participates in the life of Christ. The Church is "the extension of Christ throughout the ages", proclaiming the Mystery and living the Mystery daily throughout its sacramental rites.

In Fr. Schmemann's book, you will read how a sacrament is any divine act through which grace is communicated to man. In this regard, the sacraments clearly surpass the traditional seven, as Choirfiend correctly states. The sacraments celebrated as rituals are visible icons of invisible realities. Of themselves, they do not restore divine grace to a once fallen world; they reveal the grace with which Christ, the central Mystery of the Church, transformed and contrinues to transform the world. When man becomes united to the Mystery of the God-Man (Θεάνθρωπος), he is all the more closer to salvation.

+ Prof.

[MariaRegina]

Let me interject a few thoughts here.

Living a sacramental lifestyle includes, but is not limited to, being a participant in the rites dubbed the holy mysteries of the Church. The mysteries of the Church, or the sacraments as we know them, are all visible signs of a deeper, more sublime reality that we call THE Mystery, which is none other than the Person of Christ and the divine economy, or God's plan of salvation, wrought through Him.

When we talk about the meaning of life being sacramental, we mean that man finds his true fulfillment and meaning in life when he understands and voluntarily participates in the life of Christ. The Church is "the extension of Christ throughout the ages", proclaiming the Mystery and living the Mystery daily throughout its sacramental rites.

In Fr. Schmemann's book, you will read how a sacrament is any divine act through which grace is communicated to man. In this regard, the sacraments clearly surpass the traditional seven, as Choirfiend correctly states. The sacraments celebrated as rituals are visible icons of invisible realities. Of themselves, they do not restore divine grace to a once fallen world; they reveal the grace with which Christ, the central Mystery of the Church, transformed and contrinues to transform the world. When man becomes united to the Mystery of the God-Man (Θεάνθρωπος), he is all the more closer to salvation.

+ Prof.
A most excellent post.

Thanks.

[Knowledge3]

Excellent read Profchrysostom.

I beleive with a fundamental theory that the ancient,patristic,catholic/orthodox early church is the true church.

The one holy catholic and apostolic church.

:priest:

[MrJim]

Let me interject a few thoughts here.

Living a sacramental lifestyle includes, but is not limited to, being a participant in the rites dubbed the holy mysteries of the Church. The mysteries of the Church, or the sacraments as we know them, are all visible signs of a deeper, more sublime reality that we call THE Mystery, which is none other than the Person of Christ and the divine economy, or God's plan of salvation, wrought through Him.

When we talk about the meaning of life being sacramental, we mean that man finds his true fulfillment and meaning in life when he understands and voluntarily participates in the life of Christ. The Church is "the extension of Christ throughout the ages", proclaiming the Mystery and living the Mystery daily throughout its sacramental rites.

In Fr. Schmemann's book, you will read how a sacrament is any divine act through which grace is communicated to man. In this regard, the sacraments clearly surpass the traditional seven, as Choirfiend correctly states. The sacraments celebrated as rituals are visible icons of invisible realities. Of themselves, they do not restore divine grace to a once fallen world; they reveal the grace with which Christ, the central Mystery of the Church, transformed and contrinues to transform the world. When man becomes united to the Mystery of the God-Man (??????????), he is all the more closer to salvation.

+ Prof.

...ok, this is the sort of answer I was thrashing about for...

The Church as the "extension of Christ throughout the ages", in other words, the body of Christ on earth-yet I can see that in the Protestant tradition it is not so much a "proclaiming a Mystery", actually I'd say the Mystery been sucked dry-there's not mystery to much of anything. Last Wednesday there was a form to complete to get a "spiritual gifts inventory". Answer questions and discover your gift...what do we have when the mystery is gone?

Sacramental living...it's to a degree something I've seen in others and taught outside the Orthodox Church, but can see that perhaps what I've seen/learned is a shadow. I look forward to reading Fr Schmemann's book.

[kamikat]

Sacramental living...it's to a degree something I've seen in others and taught outside the Orthodox Church, but can see that perhaps what I've seen/learned is a shadow.

This is a common thread among converts. The tradtions we came from hinted at what Orthodoxy has, but is just a shadow.

[MrJim]

Fr Schmemenn's book arrived yesterday (thanks Amazon). After reading the preface and the first few pages of the first chapter it looks interesting-it's already asking questions I'd never considered. I didn't realize it was a 40 y/o book-is this guy still alive?

"You are what you eat..."

[kamikat]

No, he passed in 1983.

May his memory be eternal
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Schmemann
Alexander Schmemann (13 May 1921 - 13 December 1983) was a prominent 20th century Orthodox Christian priest, teacher, and writer.
Schmemann was born in Tallinn (Reval) Estonia to Russian émigrés. His family moved to France, where he received his university education. He married Juliana Osorguine in 1943, before completing his theological studies at the Orthodox Theological Institute of St. Sergius in Paris (where he studied with the great Russian theologian, Sergei Bulgakov, amongst others) and was ordained a priest in 1946.
From 1946-51, Fr Schmemann taught church history at St. Sergius. He was invited to join the faculty of Saint Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, then in New York City, where he taught from 1951 onwards. When the seminary moved to its present campus in Crestwood, New York in 1962, Fr Schmemann assumed the post of dean, which he would hold until his death. He also served as adjunct professor at Columbia University, New York University, Union Theological Seminary and General Theological Seminary in New York. Much of his focus at St Vladimir's was on liturgical theology, which emphasizes the liturgical tradition of the Church as a major sign and expression of the Christian faith.
Fr Schmemann was accorded the title of protopresbyter, the highest honor that can be bestowed on a married Orthodox priest. He held honorary degrees from Butler University, General Theological Seminary, Lafayette College, Iona College, and Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology.
He was an Orthodox observer for the Second Vatican Council of the Roman Catholic Church from 1962 to 1965.
He was active in the establishment of the Orthodox Church in America and in its being granted autocephaly by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1970.
His sermons were broadcast in Russian on Radio Liberty for 30 years. He gained a broad following of listeners across the Soviet Union, including Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who became his friend after emigrating to the West.
Fr Schmemann published many books and articles. For the Life of the World, a popular volume on Christian faith as reflected in liturgy, has been translated into eleven languages. Originally prepared as study guide for the National Student Christian Federation in 1963, it even had an anonymous version published by the underground samizdat in the Soviet Union. The Eucharist was finished just before his death. This and several collections of his writings were published posthumously.

Great Lent: Journey to Pascha (1969)
For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy (1970)
Liturgy and Life: Christian Development Through Liturgical Experience (1974)
Of Water and the Spirit: A Liturgical Study of Baptism (1974)
Introduction to Liturgical Theology (1975)
The Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy (1977)
Ultimate Questions: An Anthology of Modern Russian Religious Thought (1977)
Church, World, Mission: Reflections on Orthodoxy in the West (1979)
The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom (1988)
Celebration of Faith: I Believe... (1991)
Celebration of Faith: The Church Year (1994)
Celebration of Faith: The Virgin Mary (1995)
The Journals of Father Alexander Schmemann 1973-1983 (2000)

[Mary of Bethany]

No. Father Schmemann reposed in the '80s, I think.

May his memory be eternal!

Mary