OCA Autocephalacy question

[OrthoCanuck]

Perhaps someone could answer this:

The OCA's autocephalacy is not recognized by the Greeks and the EP (and others). However, the OCA is still considered canonical. Why then is the point of not recognizing the autocephalacy in the first place? What effect (if any) does not recognizing the autocephalacy have on the OCA with respect to other Orthodox churches? Really, what is the point?:scratch:


Peace.

[Akathist]

1. Is this an appropriate thing to bring up during Lent?

2. The Greek Orthodox Church in America recognizes us OCA's just fine, thank you very much. (Remember, OCA is a member of SCOPA)

[Mary of Bethany]

I think that's his point. Seems like an innocent question to me.

Mary

[OrthoCanuck]

That is my point. The OCA is recognized as a valid Orthodox church. No question about that. I'm just wondering about autocephalacy. I just see it as a technical issue that does not to seem to have any real effect. So just wondering why does the EP (for example) refuse to recognize it? That is all. I can't see this being a particularly bad question that people will fight over. Just a technical question about church governance.


Peace.

[Akathist]

That is my point. The OCA is recognized as a valid Orthodox church. No question about that. I'm just wondering about autocephalacy. I just see it as a technical issue that does not to seem to have any real effect. So just wondering why does the EP (for example) refuse to recognize it? That is all. I can't see this being a particularly bad question that people will fight over. Just a technical question about church governance.


Peace.

There have been some bad things said about OCA in TAW in the past and I worry that this thread will bring out those who have made those statements again. I hope they won't.

The Ecumenical Patriarch will get around to recognize the OCA in its own time. These things can take 100 years sometimes before full recognition occurs.

From my understanding, the EP was upset that the Russian Patriarch gave autoencephaly directly rather then waiting for the EP to do it. It is my understanding that the Russian Patriarch had the right to do as he did.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the issue is some bad feelings between the position of Ecumenical Patriarch and the Russian Patriarch (but not between any two particular people). It appears to be about power and control from my point of view.

The answer, imo, is to just recognze that this is a 2000 year old faith and to keep that in mind when looking for how fast changes should take place.

[EmperorConstantine]

I think that the EP recognizes the OCA as a part of the Moscow Patriarch or something like that.

I know that after Pascha, ROCOR will become an autonomous church with Russian as its "mother" church (go figure).

Just look at Romania: they were not autocephalous until 1920 something. Russia has been autocephalous since the 16th century even though St. Vladimir had the Rus' baptized in 988.

Autocephaly is a technical thing that takes a lot of paperwork. That and the fact that the EP feels only he can declare a church autocephalous or not.

Long story short: politics.

[choirfiend]

Because, to an extent, recognizing the autocephaly of the OCA confirms its place as the Church of this land, freely ruling and separate from the Church which DID have authority over this land before the Bolsheviks (the MP.) So, it would naturally follow that all the Churches here should be under the OCA, if this is the case, and the EP and whoever else do not want to give up all their churches here in our diaspora.

It's not a particularly UGLY kind of Church politicalness, but it is partially attributable to that nonetheless.

[Philothei]

I thought it was the other way around. The EP gave autocephaly, that is the right term by the way, to the OCA despite the MP denial to do so. Enlighten me if I am wrong. Despite of the chicken or the egg argument we are both GOA and OCA canonical churches under SCOBA etc. and we can take each others sacraments fine... Or I should have been excommunicated years ago...lol....

There is absolutely no difference and now that ROCOR is joining in things would be much better for all of us Orthodox worldwide.


God bless,
Philothei

[choirfiend]

No, the OCA was never under the EP, and he has never had any governmental rule over it at all. The MP granted autocephaly in 1970, but not everyone recognizes that the MP did so. They treat the OCA as if it were still under the governmental control of the MP.

Recognition of autocephaly is not at all related to being in communion with the entire Church. Yes, everyone is in communion with the OCA and vice versus. It is fully Orthodox, and that is not in question. The only question is who gets to be in charge---and it is true that as I said, if the EP recognized the OCA as a legitmately self-ruling American Orthodox Church, the rest of the churches in the US SHOULD then come under it--and it's gonna be a while before that happens.

[Philothei]

No, the OCA was never under the EP, and he has never had any governmental rule over it at all. The MP granted autocephaly in 1970, but not everyone recognizes that the MP did so. They treat the OCA as if it were still under the governmental control of the MP.

Recognition of autocephaly is not at all related to being in communion with the entire Church. Yes, everyone is in communion with the OCA and vice versus. It is fully Orthodox, and that is not in question. The only question is who gets to be in charge---and it is true that as I said, if the EP recognized the OCA as a legitmately self-ruling American Orthodox Church, the rest of the churches in the US SHOULD then come under it--and it's gonna be a while before that happens.
Autocephaly of any church in the US does not presuppose other juristictions coming under anybody else. The anomaly of Orthodox juristictionalism is much deeper than that.... goes beyond authocephaly.

but this is atopic for another thread.


God bless,
Philothei

[Michael the Iconographer]

The whole issue in essence boils down to a matter of pride. Unfortunately, Patriarchs are guilty of the pride as much as any of us are. Patriarchs are supposed to be equal, and yet one Patriarch got his feelings hurt when another Patriarch granted Autocephaly to the Church which his Patriarchate formed and took spiritual care of for over a century. The offended Patriarchate has thus refused to recognize what everyone else sees as being factual. It is uncanonical the state of the Church in the Americas, and is one which requires every one of us to pray from the bottom of our hearts for healing. I am proud of the fact that I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church in America, and am grateful to those OCA priests who have deeply touched my life.

[Philothei]

It is Patriachial pride... As we approach Holy Week let us pray for healing between us Orthodox..

Agree.:( .

God Bless,
Philothei

[Michael the Iconographer]

It is Patriachial pride... As we approach Holy Week let us pray for healing between us Orthodox..

Agree.:( .

God Bless,
Philothei
The fact of the matter is there should not be 5 canonical Orthodox Bishops in the city of Pittsburgh. I honestly don't see why the Antiochians needed to put a bishop here?!?! There were already 4 canonical bishops here already, which is 3 more than there needs to be! I mean I love my city, but it needs 1 bishop, not 5. That is just wrong, and it is uncanonical, and it is something to be looked at with great sadness.