Elders and "professional" clergy

[DanielRB]

Peace, all :wave:

I was raised in the Christian Church, and I am considering returning (lots of reasons why I left, lots of reasons I'm thinking of coming back...currently, I have no Church home).

There's one thing, though, that has always been at the back of my mind: why does the Christian Church has "ministers" that are seperate from eldres? And why do those "ministers" tend to do the work of the elders as pastors?

I can see that biblically you can suppor the idea of an "evangelist" (though most would call them "preachers"--Eph 4:11). But it seems to me that often the elders are like a board of directors that hires a "professional" to do the pastoral ministry. An evangelist is supposed to proclaim the good news, and elders are supposed to pastor the flock (at least that's my understanding of Scripture.)

I'm not against full-time people in minstry, but if they do they work of elder, shouldn't they be called "elders" and be included in their number? And if the "elders" don't do pastoral work, why are they given the title?

Now, I'm sure there are exceptions--and maybe all of my experiences have been exceptional, and in most Christian Churches the elders fulfill their biblical role. But what has been everyone else's experience?

In Christ,

Daniel

[HeyHomie]

I'm not sure I see your point.

A board of elders, who are appointed by the church' members, has the job of guiding the church's mission, overseeing its day-to-day operations, and checking on the well-being of the congregation.

A paid professional, who has education and training in the areas that allow him to do things such as preach, counsel, perform weddings, etc., is hired by the elders and given the title "Pastor," or "Minister," or "Preacher."

I don't see anything un-Biblical about this set-up.

If you disagree with the names used, then use something else. Po-ta-to, po-tah-to, my friend.

EDIT: I think that post may have come off a little more harsh than I meant it to. What I'm really trying to say is: I don't believe that the name attached to a role has any bearing on the role itself. For example, my job title is "Social Worker," but if you crossed out the words "Social Worker" on my job description and re-wrote the word "Haberdasher" (and left everything else the same), I'd still be a social worker.

If you have some kind of problem with the idea of a professional clergy, then all I can suggest is that you find a church that doesn't have professional clergy. As for me, I prefer professional clergy. It's hard work, and you need someone with education and training to be up for it.

[DanielRB]

Peace, HeyHomie :wave:

I'm not sure I see your point.

A board of elders, who are appointed by the church' members, has the job of guiding the church's mission, overseeing its day-to-day operations, and checking on the well-being of the congregation.

A paid professional, who has education and training in the areas that allow him to do things such as preach, counsel, perform weddings, etc., is hired by the elders and given the title "Pastor," or "Minister," or "Preacher."

I don't see anything un-Biblical about this set-up.

If you disagree with the names used, then use something else. Po-ta-to, po-tah-to, my friend.

EDIT: I think that post may have come off a little more harsh than I meant it to. What I'm really trying to say is: I don't believe that the name attached to a role has any bearing on the role itself. For example, my job title is "Social Worker," but if you crossed out the words "Social Worker" on my job description and re-wrote the word "Haberdasher" (and left everything else the same), I'd still be a social worker.

If you have some kind of problem with the idea of a professional clergy, then all I can suggest is that you find a church that doesn't have professional clergy. As for me, I prefer professional clergy. It's hard work, and you need someone with education and training to be up for it.

I don't have a problem with a "professional clergy" per se. However, what my post was about was that biblically "elder" meant something different than being a member of a board of directors. It meant being a pastor, a shepherd over God's flock.

One of the things about the RM is to "do Bible things Bible ways" and "call Bible things by Bible names." If that's really the Restoration ideal, shouldn't we try to imitate it in our church polity?

Yes, being a "professional cleric" is hard work--I won't deny it. My point is that if a board of elders isn't going to participate in it, then they shouldn't call themselves that. Call themselves "a board of trustees" if that's what they're going to do...but honestly, the structure of having just one (or maybe two) professional ministers do the actual work of the elders seems a lot more like the monarchial episcopate than the New Testament model.

Who cares, as long as the work gets done? Well, I think that Christ cares if people do not fulfill the work to which they were called. It would be sort of like if I decided to hire a professional full-time Dad to do my "Dad things" with my children, rather than doing it myself. Oh, I could oversee his work and make sure it was being done according to my standards. But I would be abandoning my responsibility as a father.

I hope this clarifies my position. And no, I don't think you were too harsh. :)

In Christ,

Daniel

[Frame1520]

This doesn't really answer your question, but I do agree with your logic. I do agree with you as far as the meaning of what elders and ministers are supposed to be doing. Quite often though, elders become "EINOs", (elders in name only), and the minister is therefore left to do the evangelist's work as well as the work the elders have neglected. It can become quite unfair, and definately burden a minister when he has had this expectation placed upon him. (I'm speaking from experience here).

Our minister is also an elected elder. Thanks for the post.

1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

[annie1speed]

Hey There,

The elders of a congregation bear the responsibility of watching after the flock, or the members of that congregation. This falls very much in line with what the word pastor infers. Taking care of sheep ... you get the picture... Hence the problem with calling preachers pastors.

Preachers preach, or evangelize, and they kind of are like employees of the congregation, and they serve at the pleasure of the elders you might say, but I do hope they are treated and accepted as fellowchristians. They are members of the congregation too.

For anyone who has a problem with professional full-time preachers, I must ask - What was Paul? Yes, he was a tent maker, but all that time he was under 'house arrest' the churches were supporting him. And he never stopped preaching to whoever was within the sound of his voice, and whoever was within reach of his pen. That's a little off topic, but it is a Biblical example of Christians supporting a preacher.

Elders or bishops are to be apt to teach. It's one of the requirements, so they should be evangelists also. In our congregation, it is not out of question for one of our elders to preach when the preacher is away at times.

The most grave part the most serious part of the job description is that these men will answer for our souls one day. That is a heavy responsibility for a more 'mature' man. Consider what this would mean for a young twenty something just out of school! So there are good reasons for the differences in offices. Am I making sense, or just rambling here?

As to why elders and preachers jobs are separate, a new young preacher just out of school could be an excellent preacher, but far from ready to take on the responsibility of being an elder.

Annie

Hey,

I reread my post and I missed the boat a little bit! Sorry! I was approaching this like you were asking why all preachers were not elders also. Elders have a huge responsibility, and if they accept that responsibility only to shirk it later, they do it to their own soul's peril. As stated above, they guard our souls. If they don't do that, they bear part of the responsibility. Not, understand this I am NOT taking our personal responsibility for our own souls out of the picture. We are all to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. No one can do that for us, but elders are here to help us. It is true, not all of them do as they should.