confusion about prayer

[All4Christ]

The past few weeks have been quite an adventure for me spiritually. As some of you know, I previously was an evangelical Christian, and am currently searching for where I belong (church / belief wise). I have attended a local Orthodox parish quite a bit in the past few weeks - a Bible study (Orthodoxy 101), and either Vespers or Divine Liturgy each week. I still am exploring to see whether or not this is really where I belong. In any case, I spoke to the priest today and the...Lenten potluck?...I asked him a few questions about the prayers in the Orthodox church. In the process of our conversation, he mentioned that all the prayers of the Orthodox church are for salvation (at least I understood it to mean that). I asked if prayers for guidance or healing were considered to be okay - and he sounded like that wasn't something that the church would do. To me, I have always believed that we need to pray for guidance to be in God's Will - for example, me with my search for solid theologically sound beliefs - and also for things like healing, etc - keeping in mind and constantly specifying "if it be thy will" and the such. I understand that we need to avoid the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude that can be found so often in churches today....but for example, the healing is very biblical (the elders of the church are called to lay hands on whoever has an infirmity and to anointing them with oil, etc etc.-new testament somewhere - if you need a reference, i'll look it up)....the such. In any case, please let me know if I'm misunderstanding what he meant or if I am understanding correctly, possibly explaining why...

Thanks...

[choirfiend]

I would guess there is a misunderstanding somewhere. One of the sacraments of the Church is Holy Unction, anointing with oil for the healing of soul AND body. I attended a talk this weekend where we learned that the ultimate prayer i the Lord's Prayer, and everything else is a shortening or lengthening of that, in essence. The prayer for guidance is "Thy will be done." The prayer for healing is "Thy will be done." The prayer for our lives is "Thy will be done."

I'd go back and discuss that point a lot more with him--also, make it clear where you are coming from and to what you are referring.

[rusmeister]

Hello, All4!

The prayers worked out by the Church over the centuries were developed by people who spent their entire lives praying and thinking about what we SHOULD be praying about. The prayers should not be centered around me me me but on where our minds should be, and the attitude that we should have, so that no matter what circumstance arises, (if we pray regularly) we should have the right attitude. The accepted prayers themselves are theologically sound - praying them leads towards theological sound-ness.

In a way, it all goes back to the Lord's Prayer - "When ye pray, pray like this:" and none of it was what we 'want' to pray about, but what we should be praying about. Worshipping God first, saying "Thy will" (not "My will"). Then there's an element of asking, but only for what we need today, not what we want, and for forgiveness. Our prayers are modeled on the Lord's Prayer, and His is the first and most important, so much so that we say It, rather than 'grace' before we eat.

As to healing, we both pray for it (have prayers for the sick - they include asking that the sickness be for His glorification instead of just asking to 'be rid of it') and have Unction (soborivaniye in Russian), a special service where the Church prays for and anoints the sick (This IS what you are referring to with the elders and all).

Does that help at all?

(Edit: Doh! Choirfiend beat me to it! Hi Choirfiend! :wave: )

[Orthosdoxa]

I asked if prayers for guidance or healing were considered to be okay - and he sounded like that wasn't something that the church would do.

There was certainly a misunderstanding. We are free to turn to God with ALL areas of our lives. :)

[Theophorus]

The psalms are a big part of our prayer, so whatever you find in there is certainly ok.

[Theophorus]

our most common prayers

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.
O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things, Treasury of good things and Giver of Life, come and dwell in us, and cleanse us of all impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us (thrice).
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, wash away our sins; O Master, pardon our iniquities; O Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities, for Thy name's sake.
Lord, have mercy (three times).
Glory to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Our Father, Who art in the Heavens, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Through the prayers of our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us.

Amen

[buzuxi02]

dear all4christ,

The sacrament of Holy Unction (anointing with oil) for healing both body and soul is performed once a year on Holy Wednesday, its coming up in a few weeks.

You can take some of this oil home and keep it year round.


Healing with laying on of hands as practised in evangelical circles with the person falling down backwards, we dont practise that in Orthodoxy.

In fact annointing with oil is "laying on of hands" whether it is for Chrismation or Holy Unction. (see Ex 30.25, Mark 6.13, James 5.14)

[choirfiend]

Unction is a sacrament, and is only for baptised and chrismated Orthodox, and I've never heard of being allowed to take Unction oil home on your own---though regular blessed oil for feast days and such is certainly allowed.

[buzuxi02]

Unction is a sacrament, and is only for baptised and chrismated Orthodox, and I've never heard of being allowed to take Unction oil home on your own---though regular blessed oil for feast days and such is certainly allowed.
yeah, i should of made that more clear , its only for those baptised Orthodoxy. In my church you can take some of the cotton swabs or q-tips home, for those that couldnt make the service.

[Akathist]

yeah, i should of made that more clear , its only for those baptised Orthodoxy. In my church you can take some of the cotton swabs or q-tips home, for those that couldnt make the service.

Interesting, I have never seen anyone take some home, but perhaps they do and I don't notice.

We have Holy Unction about once a month at a local monestary. It is a wonderful service!

To answer the OP:

I have heard the EO Church described as a spiritual hospital on so many occassions. This is where we come for healing. The mindset that our physical health, emotional health and spiritual health are all interconnected is also something I see in the point of view of many EO's. (this is also my point of view.)

What you said about avoiding the "gimme" stuff is what we don't like and you will not find in our prayers.

My homepage for CF has several of our prayers that relate to asking for guideance and healing. They are all EO prayers. To access it click on the link at the bottom right of all of my posts.

When I was first looking into the EO Church, my Priest suggested I read the Orthodox Study Bible. There are some abbreviated prayers in the back of that for morning and evening and initially my Priest said I could use them. As time passed, I was given a full EO prayer book. The asceticism of prayer is something you should talk to a Priest about. But I kind of doubt he would have a problem with you at least looking at the prayers in the back of the Orthodox Study Bible.

That bible has lots of notes and other information that was very very helpful to me in my conversion process.

[All4Christ]

just for the record - I wasn't referring to falling back when hands are laid on you - my point was purely that I believe prayer for healing is Biblical. He specifically mentioned that praying for a husband is wrong....and I asked, well.....asking for guidance in following His Will in that is okay, right?....and (if I understood him correctly - I left rather confused, so that is quite a possibility)....he said that praying for salvation willl lead to all of that turning out correctly. It was rather confusing. But like I said...stating that about laying hands on someone and having them fall back (and more) - well - that's something that rubs me wrong about Pentecostals (and Evangellicals) - one of the reasons I am leaving it. I'm glad that it's not quite as black and white as I originally understood him to mean.

[Photini]

yeah, i should of made that more clear , its only for those baptised Orthodoxy. In my church you can take some of the cotton swabs or q-tips home, for those that couldnt make the service.
We were allowed to take home the cotton swabs in the church I used to attend back in Florida too

[Knowledge3]

The past few weeks have been quite an adventure for me spiritually. As some of you know, I previously was an evangelical Christian, and am currently searching for where I belong (church / belief wise). I have attended a local Orthodox parish quite a bit in the past few weeks - a Bible study (Orthodoxy 101), and either Vespers or Divine Liturgy each week. I still am exploring to see whether or not this is really where I belong. In any case, I spoke to the priest today and the...Lenten potluck?...I asked him a few questions about the prayers in the Orthodox church. In the process of our conversation, he mentioned that all the prayers of the Orthodox church are for salvation (at least I understood it to mean that). I asked if prayers for guidance or healing were considered to be okay - and he sounded like that wasn't something that the church would do. To me, I have always believed that we need to pray for guidance to be in God's Will - for example, me with my search for solid theologically sound beliefs - and also for things like healing, etc - keeping in mind and constantly specifying "if it be thy will" and the such. I understand that we need to avoid the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude that can be found so often in churches today....but for example, the healing is very biblical (the elders of the church are called to lay hands on whoever has an infirmity and to anointing them with oil, etc etc.-new testament somewhere - if you need a reference, i'll look it up)....the such. In any case, please let me know if I'm misunderstanding what he meant or if I am understanding correctly, possibly explaining why...

Thanks...

Orthodoxy is about right belief and right worship of God the Holy Trinity, the trinitarian nature of (father,son,and holy spirit.)

The church is a life of prayer and we pray the prayers of the liturgy. The ancient liturgical worship is centered and focused on Jesus Christ. Our true God (father,son,and holy spirit)

:crosseo:

[All4Christ]

Knowledge3, I understand that - but that doesn't answer my question. Even the priest said that extemporaneous prayer is allowed. I read in a book "The Faith" which supposedly is approved as a catechism book for Greek Orthodox, OCA, and....what's the other? (sorry - still learning)....but the book mentioned that we are to model our prayer off of the Lord's Prayer....Praising God first and foremost before our needs....but praying for our needs was there. So.....yeah. Point being, I just need to know. ach....I'm sorry - I'm just frustrated - and I don't understand it all yet.

[choirfiend]

Ah, ok.

Yes, praying to God for a husband is asking Him for something YOU want, and is really just telling God what He "should" be doing, according to you, who knows best.

Praying to God that His will be done in your life, whether that is a spouse, or a single life in the world or dedicated to God in a monastery, then you are accepting that He is the Master of your life--and if you follow whatever His will is revealed to be, you are humbling yourself in obedience as did Christ.
If you believe that God's will may include a spouse, praying FOR that future spouse (like praying for each other) is a good thing to do.

Do you see the difference?

[ProfChrysostomos]

In general terms, the Orthodox Christian tradition of prayer is modeled after the prayer tradition known by Jews in the Scriptures. We can follow the patristic prayers (i.e. the prayers we read in prayerbooks or in the Holy Liturgy) or we can pray extemporaneously, in which case we formulate prayer on our own.

The written prayers we have in our Tradition were, at one time, the extemporaneous prayers of the Fathers. However, the Fathers themselves (depending on when they lived) followed a particular prayer model or rule of some predecessor.

Ultimately, all prayers are modeled after the Lord's Prayer, which Jesus taught His disciples after they asked Him how to pray. Prayer involves three elements: confession, supplication, and glorification. The Lord's Prayer (together with the conclusion) includes all three, as do all corporate liturgical prayers.

It is always safest to use the prayers of the Church as guides and then, within such guidelines, to formulate your own prayer, rather than winging it without any sense of direction. At the same time, however, God wants to see how fervent we are in our own desires. If He judges them beneficial for us, He will respond and grant us our requests. Otherwise, His response will be . . . no response.

If prayer can teach us anything, it is to become less and less independent and more and more dependent on God for our existence, our happiness, and our purpose in life. One Father of the Church put it this way: "Christian prayer should be a gradual movement away from supplication . . . and toward glorification. When we begin to accomplish this, then we are assuming the angelic lifestyle, because the angels have no need of anything except one thing . . . to glorify God."

Blessings,

+ Prof.

[All4Christ]

You see - I never was implying "asking God for a husband" or anything along those lines - I tried to express that to him, but I guess it wasn't clear. I have always tried to model my prayers in the same fashion of the Lord's prayer - after all, that is how we were told to pray. Well, at least that's the way I understood it. I guess it's frustrating - because I'm used to being able to express anything to God in prayer - to...almost talking to him. Granted, I'm not saying that this "talking" to him is asking for things, but....remember the Psalms? How David would express his feelings to God, when he prayed? I've always thought that that was an okay thing to do. I guess I'm just confused.

[All4Christ]

I think I understand now - I've been thinking it through. I'm going to talk more to the priest though - ask for clarification from him as well.

[Akathist]

You see - I never was implying "asking God for a husband" or anything along those lines - I tried to express that to him, but I guess it wasn't clear. I have always tried to model my prayers in the same fashion of the Lord's prayer - after all, that is how we were told to pray. Well, at least that's the way I understood it. I guess it's frustrating - because I'm used to being able to express anything to God in prayer - to...almost talking to him. Granted, I'm not saying that this "talking" to him is asking for things, but....remember the Psalms? How David would express his feelings to God, when he prayed? I've always thought that that was an okay thing to do. I guess I'm just confused.

I do try to say my prayer rule from the prayer books as I am directed to by my Priest.

However, it is true that sometimes my heart aches and I just cry out to the Lord and talk from the heart. I sometimes talk about sins, asking for forgiveness, and sometimes I do ask for help with something. For example: I have asked the Lord to help me to forgive in a particular situation, or to help me be stronger in the face of a temptation. I have told him I was lonely and asked Him to help me. (not to end my lonliness but to increase my longsuffering.) These are the kind of things that I would say were asking for salvation, I am just maybe asking specifically for needs I identify, areas of my weaknesses.

But in the past I have gone to churches that taught that I should (not could but should) ask for specific things like a new car, or a better paying job, or a husband. They taught that this was what Christ meant when He said "ask and you shall receive." (Name it and claim it theology!) I wonder if perhaps your Priest is thinking that this is your background?

[All4Christ]

That's true - often people in my background do pray like that - one of the reasons I'm leaving it...

[Philothei]

When in need I always like to pray this prayer:

Prayer of Philaret, Metropolitan of Moscow


My Lord, I know not what I ought to ask of Thee.
Thou and Thou alone knowest my needs.
Thou lovest me more than I am able to love Thee.
O Father, grant unto me, Thy servant, all which I cannot ask.
For a cross I dare not ask, nor for consolation;
I dare only to stand in Thy presence.
My heart is open to Thee.
Thou seest my needs of which I myself am unaware.
Behold and lift me up!
In Thy presence I stand,
awed and silenced by Thy will and Thy judgments,
into which my mind cannot penetrate.
To Thee I offer myself as a sacrifice.
No other desire is mine but to fulfill Thy will.
Teach me how to pray.
Do Thyself pray within me.
Amen.

Your prayer must incorporate: 3 elements that resemble the Lord's prayer:
1. Doxology
2. Pettition, asking forgiveness to attain salvation
3. Thanksgiving
"My Orthodox Prayer book" is a small little blue book with awesome prayers.

http://www.transchurch.org/sguide/praybk.htm

it is small and handy and got many different prayers to used accordingly.

Now about the priest I believe that he is trying to direct you into first establishing you and kind of "shifting" your prayer from a "utilitarian" way (me,me me) to more of a prayer for salvation. By praying for your salvation you are ultimately praying for God's will. We are praying for our salvation when we glorify and acknowled God.

In Liturgy one of our first petitions is about salvation. Salvation presupposes belief and commitment. Also I believe he is trying to gear you towards the Orthodox mindset which is praying with the prayers of the Fathers or the Lord's prayer. I defenatetly do not want to put words into this priest's mouth but IMO I think he is trying to tell you that it would be better if you tried to pray simple and in the spirit of the Fathers. My priest never limitted my prayers but when similar question came about for praying for specific need he told me that God knew my needs i did not have to spell it out for Him. Simply put God knows before we even ask our needs. That is the reason I like Metropolitan Phillaret's prayer. Do not get discouraged as you uncovser more and more you will see the treasure and undending sources of our Eastern spirituality. If you need more clarification please do not hesitate to ask. We like to give information out....

Hope that helps a little :)
Have a blessed Holy Week,
Philothei

[MariaRegina]

We were taught that the four most important elements found in the Lord's Prayer that should be incorporated into our daily lives (which should be that of ceaseless prayer) are:

A - Adoration (Doxology)
C - Contrition
T - Thanksgiving
S - Supplication

[VickiY]

To the above excellent answers, I should like to add that the church ALWAYS will annoint and pray for the sick, in their homes, or in hospitals, or in the church. I will ALSO add that the healing asked for is for healing of soul and body. We never ask that a person only be healed physically, as our physical health is not a matter of our salvation. (could this be where the misunderstanding arose?).

Also, as you ask questions, NEVER be afraid to tell the priest "I'm sorry, I don't understand that" or "That seems in opposition to what I was taught, can you please explain further so I am sure I understand?"

[Xpycoctomos]

I think I understand now - I've been thinking it through. I'm going to talk more to the priest though - ask for clarification from him as well.
I skimmed this page, so if someone already said this, I apologize. To the OP::

I agree with others that there must have been a misunderstanding somewhere or you two were speaking past eachother. Its obvious to me that in asking for guidance and healing you are not doing this in a self-centered way. Perhaps the priest was merely saying that EVERYTHING we pray for should be with the END of Salvation. That is, when we pray that God help us find a job, or heal our infirmities (physical and spiritual) or help us find a suitable spouse or anything it should always be that God answer these prayers in such a way that aids our eternal salvation. Salvagtion is a journey, a process. So every little thing we do or recive or lose or suffer or whatever should be taken as a chance to take one more step toward our slavation. In Orthodoxy the goal of everything is to Glorify God and that cannot be done if we are not living according to God's Will (that is, walking the path to Salvation).

John

[rusmeister]

I think I could add that stream-of-consciousness talking to God is fine, but it's another kind of prayer, that shouldn't replace the prepared prayers.

It seems like it's been said in different words, but just to point out that Jesus said, 'When ye pray, pray like this', not 'pray whatever comes into your head'.

Like everybody else said.

[All4Christ]

thanks everyone - that does make more sense....I meant to talk to him about it today - but there were more people than normal so he just briefly spoke to the various tables....I'll try to ask him at the next Bible Study....but yeah - what you all have been saying makes much more sense to me than what I first understood from our conversation.