Rahab's Lie

[PETE_]

Josh 2:4-7
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6(But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
(from New International Version)


The lie of Rahab was recorded but not approved. The Bible approved her faith demonstrated by good works (Heb. 11:31), but not her falsehood.

[/URL]
Was Rahab wrong to lie since her falsehood protected the spies?

Are there some situations in which a lie is acceptable? (http://www.christianforums.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=364#_ftn1)
[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=364#_ftnref1"]

[Pepperoni]

Was Rahab wrong to lie since her falsehood protected the spies?

Are there some situations in which a lie is acceptable?

It would appear so, wouldn't it?

I'm thinking if it was commanded by God, and it apparently was, then I guess we shouldn't be second-guessing God and His will.

His ways are higher than ours, after all.

[tismyself]

I'm not seeing where her lie in this situation was expressly condemned either. But maybe I am missing it.

Are there times when lying is acceptable?
hmmm....
My grandmother and her family lied to the Nazi's and help their Jewish neighbors escape. I see a difference in misleading (or lying) to protect life and trying to defraud or harm innocent people.

[PETE_]

it is an interesting dilema

To argue that the spies would certainly have perished if Rahab had been truthful is to ignore the option that God could have protected the spies in some other way.[/URL]
[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=33133213#_ftnref1"] (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=33133213#_ftn1)

[arunma]

Here's an example of lies that are specifically approved by God in Scripture:
Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, "When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live." But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. So the king of Egypt called the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this, and let the male children live?" The midwives said to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them." So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong. (Exodus 1:15-20)
The midwives withheld the truth from Pharaoh, and not only did God not count it as sin, but he blessed them for their deed. So we can see that prevarication isn't always a sin. Of course the Lord says that the devil is the father of lies (St. John 8:44), so perhaps "lying" is not the best term to describe the acts of Shiphrah, Puah, and Rahab. But I think this demonstrates that it is not always sinful to withhold the truth.

[FallingWaters]

Josh 2:4-7
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6(But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
(from New International Version)

The lie of Rahab was recorded but not approved. The Bible approved her faith demonstrated by good works (Heb. 11:31), but not her falsehood.


Was Rahab wrong to lie since her falsehood protected the spies?

Are there some situations in which a lie is acceptable?

This is what Albert Barnes says about it:

"Jos 2:4 -
I wist not whence they were - Rahab acted as she did from the belief in God’s declared word, and conviction that resistance to His will would be both vain and wicked Jos_2:9-11. Thus, she manifested a faith both sound and practical, and is praised accordingly Heb_11:31; Jam_2:25. The falsehood to which she had recourse may be excused by the pressure of circumstances and by her own antecedents, but cannot be defended."

[FallingWaters]

I would think it's really hard to tell when it's okay to lie.
We are supposed to submit to all the authorities over us.

Maybe people felt like it was a difference between obeying God or obeying man.

[RED that's ME]

A lie is a lie, is a lie.

God has a permissible will & a perfect will. Her lie did save God's people. I think she still will have to answer for it.

[PETE_]

A lie is a lie, is a lie.

God has a permissible will & a perfect will. Her lie did save God's people. I think she still will have to answer for it.
how would you apply that to the midwives example..

not argueing the subject just trying to bring up a lighter discussion around here. My dad and I were discussing it the other day and we both found it interesting.

[RED that's ME]

It is an interesting subject. :) Scripture tells us not to lie many times. God did use it for good. I don't always understand the reason or rhyme of things even when bad things happen to good people but God does use evil for good even when we don't see it.

I've heard people ask, is tricking someone telling them you're going one place but end up at another place for a surprise birthday or anniversary celebration a lie.

[mlqurgw]

Is withholding the truth or not telling the truth, what is normally called a lie, inherently dishonest? Perhaps not. I certainly don't hold to the ends justifying the means, Machiavellianism, but do believe that intention must be taken into account. Not telling the truth in order to save the lives of others serves a greater good. Dishonesty implies that you are severing yourself in some way and do it for gain in some way. Rahab and the midwives both lied because they feared God. Telling the truth doesn't always mean it is the best course to take. Lets say a husband or wife has done some very bad things before God saved them. Now it would seem it could do great harm if they told all that they did to their spouse. They may admit that they did some bad things but is it lying to withhold the details? More harm than good would certainly come of it.

[DeaconDean]

Is withholding the truth or not telling the truth, what is normally called a lie, inherently dishonest? Perhaps not. I certainly don't hold to the ends justifying the means, Machiavellianism, but do believe that intention must be taken into account. Not telling the truth in order to save the lives of others serves a greater good. Dishonesty implies that you are severing yourself in some way and do it for gain in some way. Rahab and the midwives both lied because they feared God. Telling the truth doesn't always mean it is the best course to take. Lets say a husband or wife has done some very bad things before God saved them. Now it would seem it could do great harm if they told all that they did to their spouse. They may admit that they did some bad things but is it lying to withhold the details? More harm than good would certainly come of it.

Seems to me that I remember reading in Genesis that the great patriarch of faith, Abraham, lied on occasion. (Gen. 12:10-20, KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

[holyrokker]

Exodus 20:16

Rahab would have been sinning if she had turned the spies over to the leadership of the city. She would have then been bearing false witness aganst them. They were not guilty of a crime, handing them over to the authorities would have been testifying falsely that they were guilty.


Notice that the command is not against "lying" - rather it is against false testimony about someone. It is meant to protect the innocent.

[tismyself]

Abraham bent the truth concerning Sarah several times.
Samuel told a half truth. Is God telling him to tell a half-truth? *I don't know. The sacrifice may have been made but that was not the purpose of the trip. It was to anoint a new king.
Ester told a lie by ommision until she risked her life to confront the king.
I did notice a common thread in these all including Rahab and the midwives. They were at high risk of death from a wordly authority and put their faith in God, though imperfectly. Lying is a sin, but forgivable with repentance. God uses imperfect people. Peter lied three times he did not know Jesus. He was forgiven when he repented and was asked - rather told :) - to watch over the believers and help start the church. It is when lying becomes used for self promotion (often to the point of idolatry of one's self) at the cost of others or to blaspheme God, it becomes truly wicked: Judas and Annias and his wife come to mind with the end result being death. I think the lying is mentioned in Scripture to show our lack of absolute faith in God and our weak human nature in need of Christ and His redeeming power.
------
*1 Sameul 16
1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
2 But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me."
The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate."

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[KarrieTex]

It would appear so, wouldn't it?

I'm thinking if it was commanded by God, and it apparently was, then I guess we shouldn't be second-guessing God and His will.

His ways are higher than ours, after all.
Very well said.

[FallingWaters]

Exodus 20:16

Rahab would have been sinning if she had turned the spies over to the leadership of the city. She would have then been bearing false witness aganst them. They were not guilty of a crime, handing them over to the authorities would have been testifying falsely that they were guilty.


Notice that the command is not against "lying" - rather it is against false testimony about someone. It is meant to protect the innocent.
I considered this line of thought also, but the New Testament lists liars in with the other sinners, so I didn't think it was a valid claim.

Would she have been bearing false witness?
That is really a stretch. I don't see it.
I respectfully beg to disagree.
Bearing false witness has to do with the person's innocence or guilt being called into question.
The people who came looking for the spies were not interested in Rahab's opinion or testimony concerning their guilt. Their guilt was already decided.

As someone else said, I think Rahab, and the midwives as well, feared God, and so they did what they believed was right by God, rather than obey man.

Act 5:29 ESV
29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

[FallingWaters]

Abraham bent the truth concerning Sarah several times.
Samuel told a half truth. Is God telling him to tell a half-truth? *I don't know. The sacrifice may have been made but that was not the purpose of the trip. It was to anoint a new king.
Ester told a lie by ommision until she risked her life to confront the king.
I did notice a common thread in these all including Rahab and the midwives. They were at high risk of death from a wordly authority and put their faith in God, though imperfectly. Lying is a sin, but forgivable with repentance. God uses imperfect people. Peter lied three times he did not know Jesus. He was forgiven when he repented and was asked - rather told :) - to watch over the believers and help start the church. It is when lying becomes used for self promotion (often to the point of idolatry of one's self) at the cost of others or to blaspheme God, it becomes truly wicked: Judas and Annias and his wife come to mind with the end result being death. I think the lying is mentioned in Scripture to show our lack of absolute faith in God and our weak humane nature in need of Christ and His redeeming power.
------
*1 Sameul 16
1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
2 But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me."
The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate."

-----------

Excellent post.

This is what Albert Barnes says about 1 Sam 16:2
"1Sa 16:2 -
It was the purpose of God that David should be anointed at this time as Saul’s successor, and as the ancestor and the type of His Christ. It was not the purpose of God that Samuel should stir up a civil war, by setting up David as Saul’s rival. Secrecy, therefore, was a necessary part of the transaction. But secrecy and concealment are not the same as duplicity and falsehood. Concealment of a good purpose, for a good purpose, is clearly justifiable. There is therefore nothing in the least inconsistent with truth in the occurrence here related."

This is what Adam Clarke says:
"1Sa 16:2 -
Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice - This was strictly true; Samuel did offer a sacrifice; and it does not appear that he could have done the work which God designed, unless he had offered this sacrifice, and called the elders of the people together, and thus collected Jesse’s sons. But he did not tell the principal design of his coming; had he done so, it would have produced evil and no good: and though no man, in any circumstances, should ever tell a lie, yet in all circumstances he is not obliged to tell the whole truth, though in every circumstance he must tell nothing but the truth, and in every case so tell the truth that the hearer shall not believe a lie by it."

And this is what John Gill says:
"and the Lord said, take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord; a peace offering, which might be done any where in those unsettled times, the ark being at one place, and the tabernacle at another; and might be offered upon a private altar, and by a private person; and as it seems Samuel used to sacrifice at different places; see 1Sa_7:9. Ben Gersom relates it as the sense of one of their Rabbins in his age, that there was a person slain in those parts, not known by whom he was slain; and so Samuel is ordered to take an heifer to fulfil the law in Deu_21:1 and therefore Saul would make no inquiry into his reason of going thither with an heifer, and this is commended both by him and Abarbinel."

[Yesusbesertakita]

I never thought of those as lie before, but lie is a lie no matter what. However, those mentioned comes from the fear of God... There might be other way to solve the problem, but to lie is the easiest 'short cuts'. God bless them because they fear God, but then again, lie is still a sin.

It just shows how forgiving and how great is God's love to us.

[Fireinfolding]

I "put off lying" to my brethren by telling the truth... that "I have lied". To say otherwise would be to lie against the truth and make God a liar.

Paradoxically, one can speak the truth (honestly) in confessing one has lied. Yet make God a liar by denying the truth that they do.

A LIAR is one who (in word only) *SAYS* they LOVE ~GOD~ and yet HATES their brethren (a lying sign).

Rahab is commended for "her faith" and specifically for her deeds. She had a ~faith~ that ~works~ by love. Love does no harm to another (a true sign).

Thats how I see it anyway

2Cr 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye DO no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should DO that which IS HONEST, though we be as reprobates.

2Cr 13:8 For we can **DO NOTHING AGAINST ** THE TRUTH but FOR the truth.

Now one can PROFESS (in word) "they know God" but in the DEEDS deny Him. She did not deny Him in her deeds and DID nothing against the truth in her actions.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had recieved the spies with peace

She received them in peace

Josh 1:2 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into a harlots house, named Rahab, and lodged there.

She lodged strangers

Josh 2:2-3 And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.


Jos 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and SAID THUS, ***There came men unto me***** but I wist NOT whence they were:

Jos 2:5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: wither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them.

She didnt tell those (who sought the mens harm) the truth (neither would I)

Jos 2:6 BUT ~ SHE ~ had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof.

She is commended

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

BY FAITH Rahab received them. JUSTIFIED by WORKS in accordance with what she DID

James 2:17 Even so FAITH, IF it hath not works, IS DEAD, being alone.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O Vain man, that FAITH * without WORKS* IS DEAD?

James 2:26 For as the body *without * THE SPIRIT ~IS~ DEAD so FAITH * WITHOUT WORKS * IS DEAD ALSO.


DOING the truth is ~walking in love~. Its not in word only but in DEED and in TRUTH. We can be a liar simply by declaring "I love God" (in word) but hate our brother (in heart and deed) and make void our own declaration.

Rehab was justified by what SHE DID BY FAITH.

Her faith WORKETH by LOVE and DOETH the truth and no harm to the spies.

TRUTH is walking in love. IF we truly love God its NOT in word only but in deed and truth.

Thats sorta how I see the thing

Peace

Fireinfolding

[FallingWaters]

Excellent post, Fireinfolding.

[JPPT1974]

It is hard to be honest in a world
That is filled with lying and backstabbing
To get to where we are at I agree
But God calls us not to do that as
We shouldn't be of this world because
He wasn't of this world.