What is orthodoxy in a nutshell

[OptimisticSmile]

Im soon to be going to Moldova where the predominant religion is orthodox. I do not know anything about it really and I would like to know.

what does it teach on salvation?

what does it teach on eternal security?

how does it differ from catholism?

what other important thing does it teach?

[Jacob4707]

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Church

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecclesiology

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_2.htm

Our priest gave this list of how Orthodoxy differs from Catholicism:

History of the Estrangement
Council of Elvira 306 - Clerical continency even if married; then celibacy
African Code 419 - " "
Third Council of Toledo, Spain 589 - Filioque
Charlemagne and the Franks 800
Photian Schism 861 - 1009 Pope's name omitted from diptychs
1054
Sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders 1204
Council of Florence 1438-1439 - attempt to heal schismTheological Differences
Filioque
The Papacy
Purgatory
Original Sin
Atonement
Indulgences
Divorce, indissolubility of marriage
Saints after 1054
Mutual views of each other (My understanding: The Roman Catholics consider Orthodox to be schismatic, but to have valid sacraments - hence a Roman Catholic can take the Eucharist from an Orthodox priest - a moot point, though, because an Orthodox priest can't knowingly give the Eucharist to a non-Orthodox Christian. The Orthodox consider the Roman Catholics to be heterodox, not merely schismatic, and will not state that the Roman Catholic Church has valid sacraments.)New Roman Dogmas
Papal Infallibility
Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary
Assumption of the Virgin MaryChristian Practice
Fasting
Chrismation separated from Baptism becomes Confirmation
Communion of infants
Form of Baptism: immersion vs. pouring
Leavened vs. unleavened bread for the Eucharist
Communion in both the Body and Blood
When does the transformation of the Bread and Wine take place?
One Liturgy a day vs. several Masses
Unction vs. Supreme Unction (I think the correct term is "Extreme Unction")
Married vs. celibate clerty
Sign of the Cross
Legalism
Priestly misconduct
Varied forms of piety
Icons vs. Statues

[Orthosdoxa]

good stuff, kath. I was just going to post this: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/questions.html

:)

Welcome

LK

[Akathist]

Im soon to be going to Moldova where the predominant religion is orthodox. I do not know anything about it really and I would like to know.

what does it teach on salvation?

what does it teach on eternal security?

how does it differ from catholism?

what other important thing does it teach?

I had to laugh when I saw your post about "in a nutshell". Orthodoxy is not so easy to describe in a nutshell.

I suggest that you get the book "The Orthodox Way" by Kallistos (Timothy) Ware. The local library will have a copy of it (or can get it for you easily) but you can get it cheap on Amazon.com. It would be helpful if you read some of that then came and let us answer questions.

I will say that we do not believe in "eternal security" related to our personal salvation. We do believe that it can be lost by our choices. However, we also believe that God is very merciful and loving and does not want even one of His creations to be lost. We see our Church as being part of the tools God has given us to aid us in our salvation.

Here is an example of differences. If a person apologizes to you for something and says "pray for me" they really mean it. They believe that they could and may have lost thier salvation. So, be careful to assure them that you forgive them and will pray for them. That is a cultural difference that you might not be used to.

I do hope that your trip is not a mission trip designed to "save" the pagan Orthodox of that country and "bring them into Christianity". It is sad, but there are many people who do not realize that Orthodoxy is Christian.

Take for example the Nicene Creed that is used here at CF in our rules. The early church fathers of the Orthodox (and Catholic) church wrote the Nicene Creed. It could be said that this is the "nutshell" description of our faith:

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)


We recite this creed in our Sunday services and also in our daily private prayers that is how important it is to us.

We also put a great deal of value and reverence toward the bible. That is another misconception others have had about us. In fact when the Bible is brought out in services we bow our heads and sometimes even kneel out of reverence for it. Our services have tons and tons of bible quotes through out. We have recommended bible readings for each day of the year that follow our church calendars.

Seeking virtues and learning to pick up our crosses and deny ourselves (and our passions, lusts, cravings) are also a big part of our lifestyle. Orthodoxy is a lifestyle.

Take a look at the material suggested (the book I suggested and the links above). Ask us more questions!

[Jacob4707]

Im soon to be going to Moldova where the predominant religion is orthodox. I do not know anything about it really and I would like to know.

what does it teach on salvation?

what does it teach on eternal security?

how does it differ from catholism?

what other important thing does it teach?

From your profile:Biography:
Ive been a baptist all my life but just really turned my life over to God in the last year. I feel like I may be lead into being a Christian Psychologist and have plans to pursue that after I graduate with a B.A. in psychology . I believe the bible is innerant and that it does not matter what religious denomination people claim as long as the bible is their sole authority and Christ is there one salvation.

I like to write poetry and lyrics and have a christian band www.myspace.com/eyemouth (http://www.myspace.com/eyemouth).

I also play the drums . I really like christian metal like demon hunter and extol but I like any kind of music really except for rap.

feel free to talk to me about anything. I feel like God has given me a unique perspective on life given the trials of my past. He is my source of happiness and optimism that gets me through hard times.
Just out of curiosity, are you going to Moldova on a mission trip to evangelize?Religions

According to the 2004 census, the population of Moldova has the following religious composition:
Eastern Orthodox Christians 3,158,015 or 95.5%
Roman Catholics 4,645 or 0.14%
Old-Rite Christians (traditionally Orthodox Lippovans) 5,094 or 0.15%
Traditional Protestant 0.19%
Confessional Evangelicals 1,429 or 0.04%
Refomed 1,190 or 0.035%
Evangelical Synod-Presbyterians 3,596 or 0.11%
Newer Protestant faiths 1.83%
Baptists 32,754 or 0.99%
Seven-day Adventists 13,503 or 0.41%
Pentecostal 9,179 or 0.28%
Brethren Assemblies (locally Creştini după Evanghelie) 5,075 or 0.15%
Muslims 1,667 or 0.05%
Other religions 25,527 or 0.77%
Atheists 12,724 or 0.38%
Agnostics 33,207 or 1%Orthodox Christians were not required in the census to declare the particular church they belong to. Moldovan Orthodox Church, subordinated to the Russian Orthodox Church, and Orthodox Church of Bessarabia, autonomous and subordinated to the Romanian Orthodox Church, both claim to be the national church of the country.
In the past, the country has also had a substantial Jewish community, estimated at 1.5% as late as 2000.

For what it's worth our priest has been to Russia at least 9 times and went to Princeton Theological Seminary with the idea of becoming a Protestant missionary to Russia. Somewhere along the way, though, he began studying Orthodoxy and church history, and found its theology and spirituality to be the Christianity he had been searching for all his years in non-denominational and other Protestantism. After graduating from Princeton, he enrolled at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary to become an Orthodox priest.

May your studies and travels introduce you to the church that has changed the lives of many of us here at TAW.

[Akathist]

Here is some pics of EO churches in Moldova:

[EmperorConstantine]

In a nutshell, Orthodoxy is ancient Christianity. Primarily practiced in Eastern Europe, Greece and the Middle East.. :)

But I'll answer a few of your questions as best as possible.

Eternal security: no.

We differ from Catholicism in many ways. For one thing we never change. For another, we tend to remember saints from spots in early church history (1st to 11th century) whereas in Catholicism they are on the "official saint list" but usually ignored. Priests can marry, fasting is regularly practiced, incense is used always and people stand during the Liturgy.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. ;)

[Shubunkin]

Orthodoxy in a nutshell = the truth

:)

It is the fullness of the faith. Many of us have been in other denominations, and came to the Orthodox Church, because what the others lacked, Orthodoxy gives freely, worship of the Triune God, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit + and the fullness of the history of the Church from the Apostles. We also understand what the saints and martyrs went through in the first centuries, and even persecutions continuing to this day. These are not forgotten in the Orthodox Church.

[Protoevangel]

Welcome to The Ancient Way, OptimisticSmile.

Also in your profile:


Current Prayer Requests:
...
that i will be able to be used in Moldova if called to be a missionary there for ten days

That explains a lot, and answers the questions asked of you above.

Personally, I think the mission field here in America has more need of bright young Christians such as yourself, than does Moldova. ;)

[Knowledge3]

Orthodoxy teaches from the heart with right perspective of the Bible.

The actual reality of the Orthodox Church is the living ikon and representation of the biblical church.


what does it teach on salvation?

We are saved by grace and faith in one Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:13

Mark 16:16

Acts 4:12


what does it teach on eternal security?

We are not guaranteed salvation, but we seek it through membership of the Church.

We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling:

how does it differ from catholism?

Orthodoxy teaches no heresy.


what other important thing does it teach?

The Gospels of the Savior.

Peace :priest:

[ma2000]

You might want to find out more from Moldavians themselves:

http://savatie.yoll.net/

[OptimisticSmile]

thanks guys. we will be going over there to simply share the message of Christ, that he is the only name by which men are saved. that we are saved by grace alone through faith and not of works lest any man should boast. that if we confess with our mouths and know in our heart that God has raised christ from the dead then we shall be saved.

[nestoj]

thanks guys. we will be going over there to simply share the message of Christ, that he is the only name by which men are saved. that we are saved by grace alone through faith and not of works lest any man should boast. that if we confess with our mouths and know in our heart that God has raised christ from the dead then we shall be saved.

Do you think that you'll be telling them something they don’t know already? :D :D :D

nestoj
God helps

[ma2000]

thanks guys. we will be going over there to simply share the message of Christ, that he is the only name by which men are saved. that we are saved by grace alone through faith and not of works lest any man should boast. that if we confess with our mouths and know in our heart that God has raised christ from the dead then we shall be saved.
Are you sure you won't bring them straight to hell with that message?

[Orthosdoxa]

Dear Friend,

Why on earth would you go somewhere to evangelize Christians? When there are so many non-Christian areas in the world?

[Orthosdoxa]

Are you sure you won't bring them straight to hell with that message?

Easy now...

Friend, the Orthodox Church has been around for 1500 years longer than your Protestant beliefs, and has preserved the message of the Gospel uncorrupted all this time.

Honestly, you're not going to find much support here for this type of "missions" trip. It's insulting.

:wave:

LK

[Prawnik]

Forgive if this comes off as snarkier than I intended, but the presumption of those who expect to evangelize anyone, Orthodox Christian or otherwise, in the course of a ten-day trip, amazes me.

Edit: having meditated further on the issue, the real goal of such an evangelism trip may not be to evangelize defenseless Moldovans, but to evangelize the evangelists, to strengthen their own assurances. The cynic in me rages ever onward.

[OptimisticSmile]

what we are preaching is straight from the bible. Jesus said "I am the way , the truth and the life no man comes unto the father but by me"

its a simple message so simple that one can be saved upon hearing it if they trust in it, there is no need for the church or any traditions for salvation all we must do is take God at his word and do as Romans 10:9 says. salvation is a gift of God we do not earn it and thus we can't lose it unless God goes back on his promise to save us . It has nothing to do with what we do but in what Christ did for us.

Ephesians1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

God seals us upon salvation and that seal endures because Christ forgives us for all our sins past , present and future. to lose our salvation would mean Christ would have to die again and again on a cross for us.

sorry to get preachy here. im just telling you the message we will be taking over there.

[OptimisticSmile]

you can evangelise someone with the message of christ in a matter of minutes. Our faith is built upon the gospel and its not a complicated thing that requires alot of explaining. The Holy spirit plays the main role in evangelism , we just give the message and the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of those that hear it.

[Photios]

To me, the experience of Orthodoxy is rather well summed up, when remembering the comparison of God to a consuming fire, we think on this small story:

Abba Lot went to seek wisdom from the renowned spiritual advisor, Abba Joseph. Abba Lot asked, “Abba, according as I am able, I keep my little rule, and my little fast, my daily prayers, meditation and contemplative silence; and according as I am able I strive to cleanse my heart of bad thoughts; and still I have not found what I seek; what more should I do?’
The elder rose up in reply and stretched out his hands to heaven, and his fingers became like ten flaming lamps. He said, “If you wish, you coule make your whole body like unto fire?”

[ma2000]

I'm not going into a debate, but with your message you say that the confession (as a Holy Mystery - the way it is seen in The Orthodox Church) and the penitence are worthless.
Not to mention The Holy Eucharisty.

I pray that God will help you... not to evangelize, but to see the truth.

[Jacob4707]

what we are preaching is straight from the bible. Jesus said "I am the way , the truth and the life no man comes unto the father but by me"

its a simple message so simple that one can be saved upon hearing it if they trust in it, there is no need for the church or any traditions for salvation all we must do is take God at his word and do as Romans 10:9 says. salvation is a gift of God we do not earn it and thus we can't lose it unless God goes back on his promise to save us . It has nothing to do with what we do but in what Christ did for us.

Ephesians1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

God seals us upon salvation and that seal endures because Christ forgives us for all our sins past , present and future. to lose our salvation would mean Christ would have to die again and again on a cross for us.

sorry to get preachy here. im just telling you the message we will be taking over there.

As a Protestant for nearly 30 years, I, too, was taught that The Four Spiritual Laws (Campus Crusade for Christ) and/or The Two Question Test (Evangelism Explosion) were how to evangelize people. It's odd how many churches and Christians take a few verses from Paul (e.g., "The Romans Road") and think that sums up the Gospel in a nutshell, and then think that if you get people to say "The Sinner's Prayer," they are now saved - signed, sealed and delivered into the Kingdom of God.

A little study of church history and early Christian writings (which, trust me, most typical Evangelical Protestants have never read, let alone heard of) puts such simplistic ideas to rest. Many read a few passages in Paul and disregard the plain statements of Jesus in the Gospels, thinking/acting like one of Jesus's last seven sayings from the cross was something like: "Oh, by the way... About all those things I said about what a person has to DO in order to be My disciple and enter the Kingdom of God... Well, once I die and rise from the dead, those 'works' are all 'covered by the blood,' so all you really have to do is say a short prayer, call me 'Lord' and believe in your heart that I rose from the dead, and bingo! -- you have your eternal security passport to heaven!"

Despite the fact that people use Paul to create a once-saved, always-saved soteriology, the same St. Paul the Apostle wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:27 that he buffeted his body and made it his slave so that he might not end up reprobate - a term (adokimos) that he uses everywhere else in his Epistles as a description of a lost person. It was Martin Luther that gave the church "faith alone" as a doctrine of salvation, despite the fact that the only place in the entire New Testament where the term "faith alone" is used is James 2:24 - which says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Mr. OptimisticSmile: I understand where you are coming from. I came from and was taught that perspective for longer than you've been walking on the earth. And I can tell you - it won't hold up to critical and Biblical and historical examination.

For the sake of your soul and the souls of those whom you desire to evangelize, I would suggest that you study the history of Christian doctrine and not swallow a prepackaged, nice-tasting Baptist salvation pill and seek to dispense it to others, thinking it is the Gospel.

Forgive me if the above comes across as harsh.

[icedtea]

We are not guaranteed salvation, but we seek it through membership of the Church.


edited.

[Orthosdoxa]

I would suggest that you study the history of Christian doctrine

Seconded.

Start here: http://philthompson.net/

[ma2000]

I'm sorry... maybe I should stop posting in these forums... I'll think about it after Easter. I won't post anything until then.

I received a PM because someone took my words to mean that Protestants go to hell.


I didn't say that. If you are a Protestant, you are judged as a Protestant. If you are Orthodox and become Protestant you are judged as an Orthodox. That is giving up your faith.
I'm not God. So I can't judge whether someone goes to Hell or not. So it might be possible giving up the True Faith and go to heaven. Only God knows.
And about turning you away from Orthodoxy...
I know I was wrong to be so harsh... it's not for me to judge and it's not like I'm gonna change things too much anyway. Maybe if it was some other country other than Moldavia or Romania I wouldn't care as much.
Don't judge Orthodoxy by a stupid and ill tempered person like me... find out for yourself if it is worth or not.

[EricTheRed]

I have an idea. You want to bring people to Christ? Go to western Europe. Wait better idea! Go to Iran. I hear the weather is beautiful as well.

[Orthosdoxa]

Don't judge Orthodoxy by a stupid and ill tempered person like me... find out for yourself if it is worth or not.I would say the same goes for every single Orthodox here, HD. You can't judge a faith by what you see on an internet discussion board. Read some history and learn a bit about it. You may be surprised.

It is not the teaching of the church that the nonOrthodox will all go to hell. I did not think Ma2000 really implied that, but if you took it that way, it's not true. We cannot judge anyone's salvation, not even our own. Perhaps that would be a topic you would care to discuss, and find out why.

And I can see why M2 was upset, anyway. He lives in that part of the world, where Orthodoxy thrives and has for centuries, and the idea of someone barging in and saying, "Hey, y'all aren't really Christian!" is rather upsetting, to say the least.

Stick around M2. You're needed. :)

LK

[Orthosdoxa]

Go to western Europe.

Agreed. I might not like Protestant doctrine, but I'd rather see that part of the world, which is definitely post-Christian despite pockets here and there, become Protestant, than what I see it becoming with the way things are now.

[Dust and Ashes]

Well, it's certainly safer to go to an Orthodox country and evangelize than to go somewhere like Iran or Saudi Arabia. Might even be safer than Western Europe but I can't say for sure.

[EricTheRed]

Western Europe is more dangerous. They would most likely come back atheist.

[OptimisticSmile]

I guess another question I have is what is the orthodox churches authority?

the bible is my sole authority and salvation comes from the message in it and not anything else. anyone can come unto salvation without knowing church history because all that is required for salvation is contained in the bible itself.

what about christians who arent orthodox ? do they all go to hell

James 2:24 does not mean we must do works to be saved it tells us that it is by works that we can justify the faith we have. it is also written that faith without works is dead. if someone has accepted the gospel message the change Christ brings into their life will be accompanied by works. how can we justify saying we have faith if we never act on it?

[EmperorConstantine]

I guess another question I have is what is the orthodox churches authority?
Holy (or Apostolic) Tradition. This includes, the Bible, the canons made at Ecumenical and local councils, the writings of the Fathers, the icons and one or two more things I can not recall off hand.

what about christians who arent orthodox ? do they all go to hell
No human can ever make that call. We believe that since only God knows the hearts of a man, than only He decides who goes and who does not.

In all seriousness, Orthodoxy has been in the Romania/Moldova area since at least the days of Sts. Cyril and Methodius. I would rather see a place be Protestant than nothing.

[nestoj]

First of all ma didn’t said that protestants will go to hell, he said that Orthodox who stop being Orthodox will. From mine experience that is what mostly happens, except they don’t just go to hell – they bring hell to earth.

Perhaps you have never seen an Orthodox who became muslim or one of his ancestors did. Perhaps you have never seen an Orthodox who became catholic or one of his ancestors did. Or an Orthodox who just stopped being Orthodox.

From what I’ve seen, there is nothing closer to unmentionable among men then these. They are carrying knowledge that they have betrayed the God and it torments them so much that, in their anger, they do to others such terrible things that you can’t even imagine. There is no escape from this. There is no alternative for someone once Orthodox – either serves to God with his entire being, either foot soldier in the army of darkness – no middle ground.

You may succeed in converting some of people in Moldavia – but if they are even little like mine people – you’ll be getting so much more then you’ve been bargaining for.

Although you’ve misunderstood ma’s words, even if he meant what you think, they are still ma’s words – nothing more. What one say’s doesn’t affect Orthodoxy for a single iota. What entire world say’s doesn’t affect Orthodoxy for a single iota. It’s not a religion, to be affected by words of man – it’s The Truth and The Way, and the One that instituted them cannot be changed by anything we do.

nestoj
God helps

[Orthosdoxa]

the bible is my sole authority

I challenge you to read this article: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

After all, you said you were here to learn. :)

[Asinner]

OptimisticSmile :wave:,

I was an atheist for most of my life, then became non-denom and remained so for 13 years until I found the Ancient Church. You asked, "where do we get our authority"? From Jesus Christ who left His authority in the hands of 12 men, guided and guarded by His Spirit, and which remains guided and guarded 'till this very day. The Holy Scriptures are a record of Truth, not the fullness of Truth. Truth is found in our Worship, icons, councils, hymns, Sacraments, Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, men, women, and children, who manifest Christ perfectly through an aquirement of Divine Grace and Holy Virtue. Only those who are Christian can suffer and die for the Truth. Did you know that there have been 50 million martyrs for the Faith in the last century alone? 50 million. This number does not include the previous 19 centuries. What proclaimes the Truth of the Orthodox Faith are those saints who reached perfection, who became so filled with Grace, Virtue, with the Holy Spirit, that their very lives attest to the Truth of our Faith. No where else in the world, in no other religion will you find Christ manifested like in Orthodoxy. Nowhere.

Your trip across the ocean to tell the Orthodox people about Jesus Christ will only be beneficial, if your heart is open to the Truth.

Love,
Christina

[Jacob4707]

I guess another question I have is what is the orthodox churches authority?

the bible is my sole authority and salvation comes from the message in it and not anything else. anyone can come unto salvation without knowing church history because all that is required for salvation is contained in the bible itself.

Some questions/thoughts for you:

Why do you accept the 27 books in your New Testament for your canon and don't accept, e.g., 1 Enoch (after all, Jude quotes from it) or The Epistle of Barnabas or The Shepherd of Hermas? Many early Christians accepted those as Scripture before there was a "Bible."

Why do you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is fully God and fully man and is of the same essence as God the Father? After all, many, many Christians for hundreds of years believed that "there was a time when the Son was not."

Why do you likely implicitly and without examination accept the above two things as taught and passed down by the Early Church Fathers and the early Christians, but then come up with a "Bible only" doctrine that none of the early Christians held, and that was neither taught nor believed by those who established the New Testament canon and set forth the doctrine of the Trinity? Why do you think that these Christians and bishops and church leaders were right about which books belong in the New Testament and what is the correct doctrine of the relationship of the Son of God to God the Father, but were wrong about the place and teaching of the Bible in relationship to the Church and to Christian Tradition as taught by the Apostles and as preserved in the Church by its bishops and pastors?

After all, the New Testament didn't come from heaven on two stone tablets, nor was it dug up on two golden tablets and deciphered with magic spectacles. Its formation was intimately entwined with the formation of the church, and one cannot be properly understood apart from the other. To take "the Bible" and try to "do church" by it, apart from the traditions and understandings of the ones from whom the Christian faith came forth and was passed down, is like taking the Constitution of the United States and buying a little island, and then setting up your own government by interpreting the Constitution the way you think it reads or should read, and then declaring yourself to be The United States of America, and all the people on your little island to be Americans - while at the same time regarding as being "un-American" those who live on that continent between Canada and Mexico and who don't act "American" like you think an American should act.

The above is just something to think about, if you have never thought about it that way.

[Dust and Ashes]

Why do you accept the 27 books in your New Testament for your canon and don't accept, e.g., 1 Enoch (after all, Jude quotes from it) or The Epistle of Barnabas or The Shepherd of Hermas? Many early Christians accepted those as Scripture, as they were found in some early biblical manuscripts.

Why do you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is fully God and fully man and is of the same essence as God the Father? After all, many, many Christians for hundreds of years believed that "there was a time when the Son was not."

Why do you likely implicitly and without examination accept the above two truths, but then come up with a "Bible only" doctrine that none of the early Christians held, and that was neither taught or believed by those who established the New Testament canon and set forth the doctrine of the Trinity? Why do you think that these Christians and bishops and church leaders were right about which books belong in the New Testament and what is the correct doctrine of the relationship of the Son of God to God the Father, but were wrong about the place and teaching of the Bible in relationship to the Church and to Christian Tradition as taught by the Apostles and as preserved in the Church by its bishops and pastors?

After all, the New Testament didn't come from heaven on two stone tablets, nor was it dug up on two golden tablets and deciphered with magic spectacles. It formation was intimately entwined with the formation of the church, and one cannot be properly understood apart from the other. To take "the Bible" and try to "do church" by it apart from the traditions and understandings of the ones from whom the faith of Christians came forth and was passed down is like taking the Constitution of the United States and buying a little island, and then setting up your own government by interpreting the Constitution the way you think it reads or should read, and then declaring yourself to be The United States of America, and all the people on your little island to be Americans - and to at the same time regard those who live on that continent between Canada and Mexico as being un-American.

Somebody rep that man for me, please. :thumbsup:

[EricTheRed]

gotcha covered

[EmperorConstantine]

Somebody rep that man for me, please. :thumbsup:
Done! :thumbsup:

[Jacob4707]

Muchas gracias, but I wasn't looking for reps, just trying to help convey to our guest OptimisticSmile some of the inconsistencies I began realizing about my "Bible only" Protestantism that I found couldn't bear the weight of Christian history or even sound Biblical interpretation. I slightly edited the wording to make it read a bit better and to convey that I am not trying to be argumentative but conversational.

[gorion]

Ask yourself this question: Did christ christ establish his church or his book? (believe it or not the answer is in the gospels)

Another question that demands an answer: If the bible is supposed to be our sole source of faith, why did it take 400 years to be canonized? What did christians do without the bible for 400 years?

A great question: Why do you feel the need to evangalize christians?

One More: If evagelicalism is correct, who decided your interprertation of those Pauline quotes are correct, and where do they get their authority? (ok that was actually 2 ;) )

Edit:

I forgot something,

Show me one time in gospel teaching on the judgement where anyone is asked what they believe.

Anonther point I would like to throw out there is that it is incorrect to interpret the Gospels through the Epistles. The Epistles must be interpreted through the Gospels.

[Prawnik]

Who said that one needs to know Church history for salvation? For that matter, who says that one needs to know the Bible? Remember, most people were illiterate until fairly recently. They were not reading the Bible or anything else. So we leave it for God to judge.

Of course, if the Bible were sole authority, or one needed to "believe in the Bible" (whatever that means) for salvation, one would think that the Bible itself would spell this out in very clear and unmistakable language. Not a strained interpretation of an isolated verse, but a clear and direct commandment.

After all, God does not wish the death of sinners....

And how did we get the Bible, anyway? Why did it take so many years to even agree on what books should be included? Remember, the Bible itself does not say "include only these books and not those other ones." So who decided what books are to make up the Christian Bible?

Oh, yes, the Orthodox Church made that decision.

[Alchemist]

Hey OptimisticSmile :wave:

Im soon to be going to Moldova where the predominant religion is orthodox.
You should have a great trip... it is a beautiful country.

I do not know anything about it really and I would like to know.
Well basically, the Orthodox Church is the original Christian church which was founded by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1). Paul was Orthodox, as were the Apostles; in fact, every Christian who you read in the Bible was! And 2000 years later, we are still teaching the same things Jesus taught :).

what does it teach on salvation?
What the Bible says: we are sinners who were lost, and through the incarnation, death and holy resurrection of Jesus we are saved.

what does it teach on eternal security?
Well, lets look what Jesus says:
Matthew 7:21-24
Sadly, OptimisticSmile, not even who calls themselves Christian will be saved. The Bible says we need to do the work of Christ; we can't just believe it. And when we ask the Holy Spirit into our hearts, we are not instantly saved - and the Bible never says we are. Salvation is a process, not an instant thing, and we have to work for it. This doesn't mean we earn our salvation:
Ephesians 2:8-9
But if we don't work, then we will forget the Holy Spirit, we will forget Jesus - and we will not live forever in His Kingdom.
Acts 2:19-21
So no, we don't believe in eternal security - but the Bible teaches that only if we keep our hearts set on Jesus until the end Day then we will be saved. What we do believe, however, and the Bible teaches this very strongly, is that if we do ask God to help us, He will send us the Holy Spirit - God Himself! - to live in us, guide us, correct us, edify us, and lead us to salvation. And that is a wonderful thing.

how does it differ from catholism?
In many ways, Catholicism is very similar - we both are "liturgical" churches; we both believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (bread and wine), which is why non-Orthodox cannot take communion at an Orthodox church; we both have a system of church "government", with bishops, priests, and deacons.

But despite this, we have many differences. Firstly, we do not believe that the Pope is infallible, even ex cathedra, as in the Catholic church: we believe that though bishops are very important people, and are often some of the strongest Christians, they can be wrong at times when ordinary Christian people are right. This is why we reject the Pope as having control over the Church - the Church is every single Christian, not just one Bishop in Rome.

Secondly, Catholics believe that every human is accountable for Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden; a kind of "stain" that everyone has, even at birth. This is why Catholics have the concept of Purgatory, and believe in the "Immaculate Conception" - they think that because Jesus would inherit the "stain" of Adam's sin if his mother (Mary) had it, they believe that Mary by the grace of God was born free from the "stain". Orthodox, on the other hand, reject this: though in eating the fruit of the Tree in the Garden, Adam and Eve brought death into the world, and this death separated us all from God, we do not believe we are personally guilty by the sin of Adam and Eve. This may seem a quite small difference, but it is an important one.

But really, the main difference is that though the Catholic church believe they are teaching the same things as Jesus did to the Apostles, we do not: we believe that the Catholic church (though it was once part of the same church as us) started teaching strange doctrines - such as this "stain" of Adam's sin and the Pope having complete authority over the Church - and so no longer teaches true, Biblical Christianity, which the Orthodox church does.

what other important thing does it teach?
Well, you've probably picked it up by now, but perhaps the most important thing about Orthodoxy is why it teaches the things it does. We believe that what we teach is the truth: not part of the truth, or the "basic" truth, but the total truth. We believe that this truth was given to us by the Holy Spirit, as we believe the Holy Spirit has given the whole truth to Christians for 2000 years. This can seem arrogant to people who aren't Orthodox. But its what the Bible says:
1 Timothy 3:15
Plus, if you are from a Protestant background, you would have been told that the Catholic church added a whole lot of things to the Gospel, such as indulgences, purgatory, etc., and that only by looking to the Bible you can discover the Truth. But we don't believe that the Church fell into error: Jesus said it never would!
Matthew 16:18
And was the Bible written so people who didn't know Christ would read it? Seems like at least parts of it weren't:
1 John 2:21
No, the New Testament was written by Christians who already know Christ, and knew the Gospel...
Luke 1:3
... as a written record of Christian beliefs which were already believed, taught, and protected through the power of the Holy Spirit, for Christians:
Luke 1:4
Don't get me wrong. If a non-Christian picks up a Bible, is convinced by it, and hence asks God to lead them to the truth about Him, then He will undoubtedly work through them. But it has always been the teaching of the Orthodox church that the whole truth about God and our relationship with Him has been revealed to Christians, and that the Orthodox church to this today teaches it.

But, I guess, why is this so important?

Well, I think it is wonderful that you are going to share your faith :thumbsup:! Despite the fact that Moldova is a largely Christian country, I am sure you can make a difference to some people who, despite going to church regularly, are not really passionate for God.

But it is really something you have to think about. Are you trying to get people to a church - even an Orthodox church - and to read their Bibles? If so, then I'm sure you can help the church in Moldova. But if you are telling people that the Bible is all they need for salvation, or that "once saved, always saved", or if the reason for your trip is because you think the Orthodox church is spreading false teachings, people are going to be offended by your actions.

Of course, if indeed the Orthodox church is spreading false doctrine, then you are completely justified in doing so, and may all of us here discover the true Gospel. But if Orthodoxy is true, then going to Moldova and telling people they shouldn't go to an Orthodox church isn't building the Kingdom, OptimisticSmile, it is tearing it down, even though your intentions are good. That is why we may seem cautious about your trip. It is not that we doubt your faith; you seem to me a very passionate Christian, and God bless you! It is just that if our faith is indeed true, then your trip to Moldova may not be helping Christians, it may be leading them away from true Biblical Christianity into something that, although looking to the Bible, does not have the fullness of the truth that we believe Orthodoxy does. And that would not be what God wanted :(.

I hope my answers helped. Do feel free to ask any more questions you have. And yeah, if you can, try visit an Orthodox church while you are in Moldova (or before you go, if you can). We can talk about Orthodoxy all we like, but by far the best way to learn what the Orthodox church is like is to go to one, sit in on the service, and have a talk to the local priest. I'm sure he would be able to answer any questions you have :).

God bless,
Nick

[Knowledge3]

Orthodoxy in a nutshell is the true,original,ancient,patristic,and apostolic faith.

[eoe]

the bible is my sole authorityYou mean - your own personal interpretation of the English Bible is your sole authority.
and salvation comes from the message in it and not anything else.Salvation does not come from the Bible - it comes from Christ. No message, no works, no hoops, nothing at all except the person of Christ can grant you salvation. It is not hearing something and it is not believing exactly the right thing. It is the person of Christ, the incarnate Logos and God. He and only he is able to save any of us. It is through his grace and mercy that we, who are dust and ashes, are granted the gift.

What you are doing is insulting. Perhaps I should run down to the local Baptist church and evangelize there so that they will know that Christ is a real person and not just a message in a book.

You say that "the Bible" says that it is faith alone, accepting a message as fact - I tell you that Christ himself said that any man that would follow him must *DO* several things - Deny himself, pick up a cross and follow after him. HE also tells us that those who hear the sayigs and do not actually *DO* them is like a man building on sand and great is the fall thereof. You can hear any message and accept anything as fact but until you build on the ROCK and actually DO the things in that message, you are simply building on sand.

The main revelation of God to humanity is in the person of Jesus Christ - not some personal interpretation of scripture. Perhaps you might also consider reading the book of James. Chapter 2 is especially good.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The question James asks in v.14 - what is the answer to that yes or no question? Can faith save him? What would James tell you?

IT is the person of Christ that saves you. It is not faith - it is not works. It is not anything at all other than the person of Christ that saves and he will have mercy upon whomever he will have mercy - protestant, Orthodox or Catholic. We do not get to make the rules and we do not get to choose which parts of the message we can keep and what we can toss aside. We do not get to tell Christ which parts of his teachings were important. We are to seek the REAL Christ and not some made up version of him created in our heads - not some message but a real person.

I make no judgements at all on who is to be saved and who is not - I do not know the wheat from the tares. There is someone that does and he is the only thing that matters.

So - to correct you once and for all, the prominent religion in Moldova is Christianity. If you want to help people get saved then you should look elsewhere. They have a real and personal Christ that loves them and they do not need a "message".

[Jacob4707]

OptimisticSmile:

Here is the story of a Baptist friend of mine - one who from childhood and throughout his whole life has been serious and committed about his faith, evangelism etc., like you seem to be - about how and why he came to leave the Baptist Church and enter the Orthodox Church: http://fromprotestanttoorthodox.blogspot.com/

May you find it edifying, informative, and thought-provoking. We truly welcome your questions here, even if you may have entered TAW with the idea of getting prepared to "spread the Gospel" to an Orthodox country and were surprised to find that some of us here take exception to your perspective on Christianity.

[Shubunkin]

I had taken part in various denominations too, before becoming Orthodox. I had always wondered why each denomination had a little bit of the truth, concentrating on a few verses from Bible, yet each church/denomination cared for their own verses and guarded them only, ignoring the rest of what the Bible had to say. I was also dismayed that James was ignored, and the words of Jesus didn't appear to be that important to some of these denominations I had joined. I went from church to church looking for more truth. I was not satisfied with a verse or two of truth, and wanted the complete truth. It also seemed terrible to have pastors, leaders of the church and seemingly devout Christians forget about "go and sin no more" and do their own thing during the rest of the week, but act holy on Sunday. When I found out about "once saved, always saved" doctrine, I had to wonder why Jesus kept saying we should repent, and all of that. Repentence is not a once in a lifetime event, it's supposed to be throughout our walk in the faith, otherwise our faith is worthless. What about that race that Paul was talking about?

1Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

and also in Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

This didn't sound like "once saved, always saved" to me. Repent once and sit on your laurels? That is lazy Christianity, and not comparable to a race.

[Mary of Bethany]

Another former Baptist here, OS. :wave:

I was a devout Baptist Christian for the first 37 years of my life, and I love the Baptist churches for a wonderful grounding in Scripture, and a fervent love for Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

But then I realized that there was much, much more to Christianity than the Baptists believed . . . . . .

Mary

[OptimisticSmile]

I would agree with you guys on your concern over the once saved alwasy saved doctrine. While it is a true doctrine the way it is emphasized has led alot of people into believeing that if they pray a prayer or walk an isle that they are saved. repentence is a heart change and that is refelcted in the lifestyle of a "christian". Faith without works is Dead and alot of times this is not spoken of in church enough. however those verses do not say that we must do works to be saved, rather it teaches that if we have faith (if God has changed our hearts) then this will be accompanied by works. you can say you have faith in a chair but until you actually sit in it you have not followed up that statment of faith with works, the works justify us saying we have faith. if you sit in a chair after saying "I have faith in it" then your faith in that chair is justified by your action of sitting in it. One reason these passages are not spoken of frequently in protestant churches is that people sometimes overemphasize works rather than faith and grace.

[Orthosdoxa]

Hi OS, :wave:

Another former Baptist here.... (one who has heard the chair analogy more times than she could count ;))

I would really like to see the discussion that would happen if you'd actually read some of the articles we've pointed to and attempt to learn from us, rather than attempting to teach us. My hubby, also a former Baptist, is also a member here, and I can think of several, many actually, other former Baptists and former Baptist style non-denoms here. So anything you can say is old hat to us, and something we've already heard - we've chosen another way, based on Scripture and what Christians have believed for 2000 years. Your doctrines are relatively new, and NOT what those in the generations closest to Christ and the Apostles believed.

You said you were here to learn about Orthodoxy. So far I'm not seeing our attempts at helping you bearing any fruit, I only see you trying to teach us things that we reject as false based on the reasons above. What can we help you with, and what questions do you have for us?

[Jacob4707]

I would agree with you guys on your concern over the once saved alwasy saved doctrine. While it is a true doctrine the way it is emphasized has led alot of people into believeing that if they pray a prayer or walk an isle that they are saved. repentence is a heart change and that is refelcted in the lifestyle of a "christian". Faith without works is Dead and alot of times this is not spoken of in church enough. however those verses do not say that we must do works to be saved, rather it teaches that if we have faith (if God has changed our hearts) then this will be accompanied by works. you can say you have faith in a chair but until you actually sit in it you have not followed up that statment of faith with works, the works justify us saying we have faith. if you sit in a chair after saying "I have faith in it" then your faith in that chair is justified by your action of sitting in it. One reason these passages are not spoken of frequently in protestant churches is that people sometimes overemphasize works rather than faith and grace.

At the risk of giving offense, the above is IMO a simplistic and cookie-cutter response, and one that I have heard many times, over many years (and have myself used), to address and in some ways avoid many clear statements in Scripture, including the New Testament. It is based on a reductionist definition of "saved." To use your phrasing, one reason the "hard" sayings of Scripture are not spoken of frequently in Protestant churches is because they show that the modern idea and understanding of "eternal security" (aka "once saved, always saved") is difficult to support from either the Scriptures or what Christians for the first millennium or more of the church's history have written about the Christian faith.

Yes, do read some of the links we provided you and learn what the Church has always taught, as well as the stories of those who have found that to sync their faith with the Scriptures, they had to leave many of their Protestant beliefs behind.

As an aside: As a Baptist, I assume you believe that baptism is just a sign of obedience, an outward symbol of an inward faith, and not a part of one's being "born again"; and that communion is simply a remembering and proclaiming of Christ's death, but not a real eating of and sharing in His body and blood. Do you have anything to say about the fact that such beliefs about baptism and communion being strictly symbolic were never held by the earliest Christians, including the ones who learned from the Apostles and preserved and passed on their writings to us, as well as those who canonized them as New Testament Scripture? E.g., John 3:5 was always understood to refer to water baptism.

You're a new Christian of only 2 years, so I fully understand that your reading in Christian theology, as well as the Scriptures, has probably not been extensive enough to include many of the things we allude to here, some of which you're likely hearing about for the first time.

Gender:
Male (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field29=1)
Christian, Denomination Or Other Faith Icon:
Baptist (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field52=6)
Country:
United States (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field31=266)
Location:
Pensacola (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field2=Pensacola), Florida (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field2=Florida)
Biography:
Ive been a baptist all my life but just really turned my life over to God in the last year. I feel like I may be lead into being a Christian Psychologist and have plans to pursue that after I graduate with a B.A. in psychology . I believe the bible is innerant and that it does not matter what religious denomination people claim as long as the bible is their sole authority and Christ is there one salvation.
Church:
Klondike Baptist/Hillcrest baptist/ Hope Community Church (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field6=Klondike+Baptist%2FHillcrest+baptist%2F+Hope+Community+Church), im still searching (http://www.christianforums.com/memberlist.php?do=getall&field6=im+still+searching)
Date accepted Christ / Years as a Christian:
2
Personal Testimony - How I became a Christian:
I have grown up in a christian environment but I never new peace until my second year of college. All my life i have been searching for God in my life and one day i talked to my pastor and just realized I was trusting in the wrong things like "alter calls, the sinners prayer, etc" rather than Christ alone.
i used to be shy and socially anxious but I overcame that through christ and am now doing things i'd never thought id do like being a server at a restaurant, leading a bible study, and mabye even going on a mission trip this summer. God never ceases to amaze me.

When Evangelical Protestants want to contrast themselves with other Christians, they usually discuss "liberals" or the Roman Catholic church; very few Protestants in this country know much of anything about the Orthodox Church (you could have counted me among them until about 2.5 years ago, despite having been a Christian across the length and breadth of Evangelicalism and Charismatic Christianity for more than 2 decades). I'll wager that an understanding of the Orthodox Church has probably never been part of your Christian instruction, ever. Hopefully you will use what we are sharing with you to begin investigating the Orthodox Church and its claims. :thumbsup:

[Dust and Ashes]

Yeah, I became a Christian in a Baptist church back in 92 and identified myself as Baptist for about 3-4 years before drifting into the charismatic movement. I was charismatic when I came to christianforums. I saw someone with a signature that said, "Orthodoxy, proclaiming the truth since 33AD." and I was incensed (pun intended) that anyone would have the audacity to claim their Church had the full truth. I came to TAW to investigate these outrageous claims.

As I began to study and listen I started to see the faith I had been searching for my whole life. I was chrismated into the Orthodox Church on Holy Saturday last year and have never regretted it. I can't imagine being anything else.

[Akathist]

you can evangelise someone with the message of christ in a matter of minutes. Our faith is built upon the gospel and its not a complicated thing that requires alot of explaining. The Holy spirit plays the main role in evangelism , we just give the message and the Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of those that hear it.

what we are preaching is straight from the bible. Jesus said "I am the way , the truth and the life no man comes unto the father but by me"

its a simple message so simple that one can be saved upon hearing it if they trust in it, there is no need for the church or any traditions for salvation all we must do is take God at his word and do as Romans 10:9 says. salvation is a gift of God we do not earn it and thus we can't lose it unless God goes back on his promise to save us . It has nothing to do with what we do but in what Christ did for us.

Ephesians1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

God seals us upon salvation and that seal endures because Christ forgives us for all our sins past , present and future. to lose our salvation would mean Christ would have to die again and again on a cross for us.

sorry to get preachy here. im just telling you the message we will be taking over there.

How dare you come into our Congregational area to find out about what we believe to use it to take try to move people outside of our faith! What an incredibly insult.

I am waiting for you apology to each of us.

[Protoevangel]

How dare you come into our Congregational area to find out about what we believe to use it to take try to move people outside of our faith! What an incredibly insult.

I am waiting for you apology to each of us.
Come on Akathist, he's just a babe in the faith, doing the bidding of his teachers. He probably never even realized what he was doing was so incrediblt rude and wrong.

I think we can cut him some slack, as long as he sticks around for some genuine and respectful conversation and learning, don't you? :hug:

[Knowledge3]

When I'm finally chrismated. I'm going to go out and evangelize,teach, and instruct others in the faith. :priest:

[Orthosdoxa]

K3...

....or you could sit back and grow deeper into Orthodoxy. ;) It's a lifelong process, one that is not magically completed upon chrismation.

[Jacob4707]

.

[icedtea]

If one wanted to start learning, what book would you recommend, or would you recommend (as I have heard here) attending a liturgy and asking a priest?

[OptimisticSmile]

sorry if I offended anyone here. my intent was to start out with a few questions and i got a little carried away.

Two last questions I have are this/

1 what is teh origin and symbollism of the orthodoxy cross thingy and the other common symbols. I have always thought it looks really awsome?

2. where does the idea of praying to saints and having icons come from?

[nestoj]

If one wanted to start learning, what book would you recommend, or would you recommend (as I have heard here) attending a liturgy and asking a priest?
I’m happy to see that you are not angry anymore.

[icedtea]

I was never angry.

[EmperorConstantine]

K3...

....or you could sit back and grow deeper into Orthodoxy. ;)
I agree here. K3, sit back and let your faith grow and mature before going out into the world. I've heard of people who've been chrismated, two months later go out and evangelize and then convert back to the faith they were before and all because their own faith was not mature.

If one wanted to start learning, what book would you recommend, or would you recommend (as I have heard here) attending a liturgy and asking a priest?
Whoa! When did you join this thread? :scratch:

The book I always recommend is "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware.

[Orthosdoxa]

or would you recommend (as I have heard here) attending a liturgy and asking a priest?

This is the best way, as Orthodoxy is experiential. Try http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/sr/locator.php?cntry=USA to find a canonical parish near you.

Books are okay, but they only give you a 2D picture, instead of the 3D experience. But it's something, at least. I'd start with "Facing East", by Frederica Mathewes-Green. I think you'd really like it. It's not a lot of heavy theology, but the experience of a woman who converted to Orthodoxy. She writes as though she's talking to a dear friend.

[icedtea]

thank you! I was told that; you must go and see for yourself. I have checked, theres nothing 'near me' especially as I'd need a ride, but it doesn't hurt to call.

[icedtea]

Whoa! When did you join this thread? :scratch:

Can't anyone join in? :) I got interested when that wonderful poster (he always says forgive me) posted what certain verses represented. I'd never thought of reading them as anything other than face value.
Also his humbleness impressed me.

[Orthosdoxa]

Can't anyone join in?

Of course! EC, your comment confused me (which isn't hard to do these days...)

Are you SURE there's nothing near you? There ARE very remote places where the nearest church is an hour or more, but sometimes there are missions or even just a few Orthodox Christians who meet in someone's house who are working on starting on a mission. Where are you? Oh wait, are you the one in central MO? Did we already go over this?

[EmperorConstantine]

Can't anyone join in? :) I got interested when that wonderful poster (he always says forgive me) posted what certain verses represented. I'd never thought of reading them as anything other than face value.
Also his humbleness impressed me.
I'm just looking through pages and out of nowhere I see the name "HowardDean" and couldn't recall if you had said anything here or not.

Orthosdoxa, sorry I confused you.

Anyway, OS person, I still think it is a bit not cool to ask about a faith for the sole purpose of seeking ways of how it is in error only to then convert someone to one's own faith.

But I'll forgive you. :hug:

[icedtea]

I am near Cleveland Ohio. Theres a church downtown, and also in a suburb east of me. They are half hour drives and I hadn't recently been able to find a ride to any church, even ones within a mile of me!

[BabyLutheran]

thank you! I was told that; you must go and see for yourself. I have checked, theres nothing 'near me' especially as I'd need a ride, but it doesn't hurt to call.
The go and see for yourself doctrine might work for you, but when I took my wife to "go and see", I thought she was going to run kicking and screaming back out of the sanctuary. It is so uncomfortable to many people the first time, myself included. Just make sure you give it a chance to sink in. I think you have to go at least 5-10 times before it makes any sense to you, especially if you are from a seeker sensitive, praise and worship type church.

I am not criticising Orthodoxy, I am just warning you to give it a while, and don't expect to necessarily fall in love with it or even understand it the first time you go.

I can't convince my wife to ever set foot in DL again, and she won't even read the Facing East, or Thirsting for God books. I often wonder to myself whether she is afraid to discover the truth!

[Orthosdoxa]

HD, call the priests there if you're serious about going. I'd bet my last donut there's someone near you who would be more than willing to pick you up. We have some Clevelanders here, don't we?? I wonder if we can hook something up.

[Orthosdoxa]

I often wonder to myself whether she is afraid to discover the truth!It's possible. With knowledge comes responsibility.

Keep praying for her. At the risk of sounding, erm, insensitive, I think some American Protestants are spoiled. (I'm not even saying she is, bc I don't know her. This is a generalized statement, based on my own experiences as a Protestant.) They're so used to having services that cater to them in every way, they're not sure what to do with a worship that's thousands of years old, worships in Spirit and in Truth, and refuses to change with passing fads. It can indeed be a splash of cold water to first timers.

That being said, I fell in love with Orthodoxy right away, though it took a long while to understand many things. REAL Truth by its nature has to be uncompromising, and I saw that, and I saw beauty, and I saw real Christ-Himself centered services, not services that focus on how I *feel* about Christ, or on *my* gratitude towards Him. There's a profound differences. There's a place for those things, but in Orthodoxy, it is much, much smaller.

[icedtea]

Some nice femlae here sent me a link which described what to expect during a service. Its seemed nice, though I need to sit many times during service.
I have been going to churches for 28 years and they were all about as charismatic (for want of a better word) as there are. I was brought up in a Catholic church so am familiar with that.
Went to the library. There were 4 books, one which looked 50 years old. The only one that looked interesting, which I checked out is Eastern Orthodoy through western eyes by Donald Fairbairn.

[Orthosdoxa]

though I need to sit many times during service.

I was bedridden for over 5 mo. last year, and my body still hasn't recovered, so me too. There will be a place to sit when you need to, and it's unlikely anyone else will notice.

As far as that book, the reviews from EO people who've read it are mixed, from what I've found online, such as at http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Orthodoxy-Through-Western-Eyes/dp/0664224970

(the bottom review makes me want to :sick: )

There's http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/2004/ray.pdf

written by an Orthodox professor of religion, whose opinion on it is lukewarm.

I'm not telling you not to read it - just be aware that learning about Orthodoxy from non-Orthodox sources is kinda like going to the black community and asking them to teach you to be hispanic. I'd much rather you read stuff written by Orthodox. I know your resources are limited. If you pm me your address, I'll mail you a couple books that are more accurate.

[KatherineOCA]

Optimistic Smile,
Since you really are so little informed about the faith of those to whom you wish to "minister", would it not be more respectful to spend sometime learning. Not just here, but seriously learning. In this way you are less likely to insult or alienate people who have been Christian for many generations before there was Protestantism. Perhaps your mother taught you the good manners to respect others before you go into their house to tell them how to live. I hope so. God will bless a true seeker after Him. That includes you as well as all of us on this planet. May God guide you.

[Jacob4707]

sorry if I offended anyone here. my intent was to start out with a few questions and i got a little carried away.

Two last questions I have are this/

1 what is teh origin and symbollism of the orthodoxy cross thingy and the other common symbols. I have always thought it looks really awsome?

2. where does the idea of praying to saints and having icons come from?

1. The 3-bar cross is called a St. Andrew's cross, I believe. Some traditions have it that St. Andrew used it as an evangelistic tool, showing people via the slanted bottom rung on the cross that those who believe in Jesus go up to heaven, and those who reject Him go down to hell. The top crossbar is said to represent the plaque above Jesus's head when He was crucified that read "Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews."

2. Praying to saints comes from Jesus's explicit statement that the dead in faith are not dead, but are alive in God's presence (i.e., when He argued with the Sadducees about the resurrection). The book of Revelation shows the dead Christians in heaven at God's throne. The verse in Hebrews about being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses is taken by some to support that the entire body of Christ, not just those of us still on the earth, takes part in our worship - or, rather, in our worship we ascend to the heavenly Jerusalem (again, read the book of Hebrews, chapter 12) where we come to the spirits of righteous men made perfect. The experience the church had of the life of Christ and of the Holy Spirit during its worship convinced them of the reality of Jesus's words that those who believe in Him will never die, and the church understood that those who went before them were still with them. We are all ONE BODY in Christ, and those who have especially taken up their crosses and followed Jesus in their lives begin to manifest the change that comes to those who partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) in this life, and their lives and prayers manifest the power of Christ's incorruptible life - and that does not cease with their deaths. If they could pray effectively for the church while still on the earth and away from God's presence, how much more are their prayers considered to be effectual when they are now in His presence and experiencing the glory of Christ Himself? James 5:16 is used by some to support the effectual prayers of these Christians who achieved special holiness and godliness in this life. If the dead bones of Elisha (Elijah?) can bring a corpse back to life, or if the handkerchiefs or shadow of Peter (Paul?) can heal people, why do we think that suddenly they are inaccessible once they repose? There is much more I could say, but you can find this out on the Internet.

As for icons, the writings of John of Damascus are your best source for information on that. He defended the use of icons against the iconoclasts (those who wanted to prohibit the use of icons). Again, Internet articles can probably explain this better than I can.

Here's a great idea: Go to http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/archives.htm and listen to the programs on topics you have questions about. They'll even send you a free Orthodox Study Bible New Testament and Psalms - http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/freeosb.htm - and there are articles in there, as well as notes, about the most common questions about Orthodoxy. It uses the New King James version.

[Photios]

The only one that looked interesting, which I checked out is Eastern Orthodoy through western eyes by Donald Fairbairn.

I was given that by my mom when I was a catechumen. Overall, it's alright, but it tries to look at Orthodoxy piecemeal, rather than as a whole, which doesn't give the best picture, any more than a jigsaw puzzle with a third of the pieces missing.

[icedtea]

I just leafed through it, and didn't even know he wasn't Orthodox.

[Jacob4707]

OptimisticSmile and HowardDean:

I agree with many here who have said that Orthodoxy has to be experienced to be understood. This is not to discount reading (of which I did a lot, and still do), but Orthodoxy is not just about tweaking one's theology or reading the Bible now with Orthodox glasses instead of Charismatic or Evangelical Protestant ones.

For one, there are the disciplines of the Church:

the regular fasting days (Wednesdays and Fridays, plus the extended fasts throughout the year, of which we are coming to the end of the longest one, i.e., nearly 50 days);
the daily prayers (morning and bedtime/evening at a minimum);
the services (again, at a minimum the weekly Divine Liturgy on the Lord's Day; and vespers during the week, as well as vigil on Saturday night).All these one can begin to take part in while exploring Orthodoxy, and indeed, in my opinion, you must do these things to know what you are inquiring about. Then, after you join the Church, there are the mysteries (sacraments) of the Eucharist and confession, both of which require additional preparation to receive.

Some people, especially those from a free-Spirited Protestant background like us, might consider the above to be "legalistic."

(From what I've read of the Roman Catholic approach to some of these things, these disciplines can indeed be regarded and spoken of in legalistic terms, and I suspect there are some Orthodox who also might have such a view of these things.)

To dismiss these as being "legalistic" comes, in my opinion, from a too-optimistic view of human nature and an almost gnostic (?) view of salvation that too much separates our spirits/souls from our bodies. For many of us, our bodies, like St. Paul the Apostle writes, do need to be buffeted by us and made our slaves and made subject to the Spirit, and our minds need to be renewed. Sure, God's grace accomplishes all this - after all, when St. Paul says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, he then gives the reason by saying that God is the one working in us both the desire and the doing of this (Philippians 2:12-13) (μετα φοβου και τρομου την εαυτων σωτηριαν κατεργαζεσθε: θεος γαρ εστιν ο ενεργων εν υμιν και το θελειν και το ενεργειν υπερ της ευδοκιας). Some Protestants raise a red flag at this kind of talk and reject any concept of synergy (i.e., that we cooperate with God or work together with Him) because that implies that our salvation somehow depends on "works." My only response to that kind of reaction is to say that time would fail me if I were to have to list all the New Testament verses that tell us what we are to do.

The Orthodox practices, from what I've been told by many people on this forum as well as by our priest, are therapeutic - they work to restore to man the image of God that was marred at the Fall, and to re-establish our longed-for communion and communication with Deity which we had "In the beginning."

Some people might be quite in tune with the Holy Spirit and not need the guidance and direction and care of the Church and the Saints and the spiritual leaders of the past and their time-tested practices to help them grow in grace and love and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. I freely admit that the above does not describe me. Albert Einstein defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I can look back over nearly 30 years of a life that was probably not too atypical of many Christians (though I hope for their sake that most Christians did far better than I did) and know that if I continue the way I am with another round of personal decisions about how to be a Christian guiding me from day to day and book to book and fad to fad and speaker to speaker and doctrine to doctrine and teaching to teaching and church format to church format, etc., etc., in 10 years I will then have 40 years of the same mess to reflect upon. I don't want that. In many ways I still need to be taught - and practice - the rudiments of the faith (Hebrews 5:11-6:3).

I don't know how I got to this last paragraph from where I started, but I guess it was a way of saying that Orthodoxy presents (and confronts) me with Total Christianity (our priest uses the term "maximalist"), from its worship to its prayers to its disciplines to its Household of the Faithful of all generations. And the only way to begin to understand this, and how and why Orthodoxy in many ways cannot be learned like the old way one learned what to believe and do as a Christian, is to begin marinating in it.

I'll end with this: I remember reading somewhere, whether from a soldier or a policeman, that if you need to kill someone quickly, aim for the head, because "if you hit the head, the body will follow." I figure that if I subject my body and mind to the disciplines and graces of Christ and His Church, with the grace of God my heart will follow.

And that is this nut's way of describing Orthodoxy in a nutshell.

Kyrie, eleison.

ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ

Χριστος ανεστη εκ νεκρων, θανατω θανατον πατησας, και τοις εν τοις μνημασι ζωην χαρισαμενος

[Orthosdoxa]

Some people, esp. those from a free-Spirited Protestant background like us, might consider the above to be "legalistic."

The beautiful thing, though, is it's actually NOT legalistic, but the Church in her wisdom allows accomodations for those who need them. It's all done for our salvation. I, for example, have a dispensation from fasting bc my babies are still on mommy milk. The Church doesn't just say, poo poo, do this or else. It's all adjusted to individual needs, for the best of each individual. And that's a beautiful thing.

[27B6]

KATHXOYMENOC,

Wunderbar! Thank you for a great post. :thumbsup:

[icedtea]

She explains things well!

[Shubunkin]

I guess Orthodoxy doesn't fit in a nutshell, and I'm not surprised. :)

[27B6]

I guess Orthodoxy doesn't fit in a nutshell, and I'm not surprised. :)

Well if it did, that would be a Mighty Big Nut. ;)

[EmperorConstantine]

The Orthodox practices, from what I've been told by many people here as well as our priest, are therapeutic - they work to restore the image of God that was marred at the Fall, and they work to re-establish the body's longed-for communion and communication with Deity which it had "In the beginning."
And according to Greek Metropolitan Hierotheos, not only is Orthodox spirituality therapeutic, but Western "spiritualities" are not due to the fact that they are more scholastically centered.

[OptimisticSmile]

I am looking into Orthedoxy. you guys had alot to give and so reading it has been a challenge given im in school right now. We actually are going this weekend for three days of cultural training and we are having weekly meetings and so ill make sure my fellow evangelists know that you guys have asked that we look at your religion.

[Jacob4707]

I am looking into Orthedoxy. you guys had alot to give and so reading it has been a challenge given im in school right now. We actually are going this weekend for three days of cultural training and we are having weekly meetings and so ill make sure my fellow evangelists know that you guys have asked that we look at your religion.

Enjoy your weekend!

[Hoser03]

With such a large world wide population of non-Christians, and people in many areas of non-Christian regions of the world that may never have heard of Jesus, why is it necessary for some people to go out of their way to offend people in a part of the world that's been Christian longer than there have been protestants? India, several hundred million Hindus. Why not go there and instead of just preaching help out the poor? Better yet, why not help some of the poor people right where you live?
From an objective point of view it seems like this is just a vacation dressed up as something else. Moldivan is a somewhat obsecure language, I doubt any of you speak it. No one learns a language in a weekend, so I'd have to say the thought you can evangelize people you can't even talk with is far fetched.

[Prawnik]

Don't worry, most people in Moldovan know Russian.

[Jacob4707]

With such a large world wide population of non-Christians, and people in many areas of non-Christian regions of the world that may never have heard of Jesus, why is it necessary for some people to go out of their way to offend people in a part of the world that's been Christian longer than there have been protestants? India, several hundred million Hindus. Why not go there and instead of just preaching help out the poor? Better yet, why not help some of the poor people right where you live?
From an objective point of view it seems like this is just a vacation dressed up as something else. Moldivan is a somewhat obsecure language, I doubt any of you speak it. No one learns a language in a weekend, so I'd have to say the thought you can evangelize people you can't even talk with is far fetched.

While I now have a different view of Protestant missionary activity in Orthodox countries than I did when I was an Evangelical Protestant, I think I remember reading a statement from an Orthodox monk (born Orthodox, not a convert) - if I recall correctly - in which he said in response to a question about what he thought about Protestant evangelists and missionaries that it was a message from Billy Graham that caused him to understand Jesus and salvation (he might have even said that he was "saved" by hearing Billy Graham), so he was in one sense thankful for their activities. I don't know if I read this in THE MOUNTAIN OF SILENCE or in some other book. If it was in TMOS, then this can easily be checked to see if I have the story right or got it all wrong.

[icedtea]

Found a book by a female whose husband got her into the church, it was an authbiography almost but she gives much details about the orthodox life. It seems like there is so much to read before you can become a member. Is it supposed to be that hard and take a long time?

[Jacob4707]

Found a book by a female whose husband got her into the church, it was an authbiography almost but she gives much details about the orthodox life. It seems like there is so much to read before you can become a member. Is it supposed to be that hard and take a long time?

Is that FACING EAST or AT THE CORNER OF EAST AND NOW by Frederica Mathewes-Green?

You can take as long as you want, or throw yourself at the feet of the bishop and tell him that if he doesn't make you Orthodox right now, right this minute, you will perish in your sins. (I think I read about a Saint who did this - she was a wanton woman and had a sudden conversion and conviction of her sins, and pleaded desperately to be made a Christian - and she prevailed with the priest or bishop, because he sensed from the Holy Spirit that she was indeed ready and sincere, so he baptized her, and I think she then entered a convent. I have probably not gotten the details right, though.)

[icedtea]

It may have been Facing East. I had too many books to carry but will check it out next time.
It seemed engaging, as it told her story of her walk through it.
There is a web site called Orthodox Church in America which has a lot of links and info.
A lot to learn, I would think.
A nice poster is actually sending me some books!
Its weird. We went to my first church 9a non denom one) last Sunday after being without a home church for years and though I love the worship (contemporary is our definite favorite) it seemed almost..bland.

[Dewi Sant]

Im soon to be going to Moldova where the predominant religion is orthodox. I do not know anything about it really and I would like to know.

what does it teach on salvation?

what does it teach on eternal security?

how does it differ from catholism?

what other important thing does it teach?

Forgive me if this has already been posted (it is now such a huge thread).

Orthodoxy is Catholicism.
It is not to be confused with "Roman Catholicism".

Originally the Church was one, Catholic body.
It was under the Roman Empire (both east and west).
Therefore, in a sense, we are also "Roman Catholic", true.

However, due to theological (and dare I say, political) differences the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church grew apart, divided so to speak.
Now, I am I not going to say who divided from who, that is not for me to say, nor is it helpful for that leads only to judgement and pride. The Christian Church is in division, but only on Earth.

The Roman Catholic Church of today is different from the Orthodox [Catholic] Church. A difference is that the Romans consider their church complete, the Orthodox however consider the church incomplete, it is incomplete when the whole of Christendom is not under the banner of Christianity, the One Holy Catholic Church. The see of Rome must unite with the other sees of Christendom. That is why the Orthodox have not changed their doctrine for many centuries, the Church simply hasn't been whole since the times of the Great Schism.

For this reason, the phrase of the Nicene Creed "And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" has even greater weight now, then it did when composed, for now it is a sign of both hope and reality.

BTW, I always make the distinction between Catholicism and Roman Catholicism.
Generally I may even refer to it as 'the Roman Church' or even 'the Romans' (never intended in a derogatory sense....for example, I would never refer to Roman Catholics as 'Papists', a term I hear only from very staunch (and oftenly confused) Anglicans)....which has confused many ancient history students I've talked to ^_^ .

".....just last week, the Romans held a parade in my home town"...to which they reply :scratch: :eek: :doh: :scratch:

[Photios]

I would never refer to Roman Catholics as 'Papists'...

I do, but only the same friends that I also call Sith.

".....just last week, the Romans held a parade in my home town"...to which they reply :scratch: :eek: :doh: :scratch:

So, was it a Triumph, or just some festival?

[Orthosdoxa]

HD - I hope it was Facing East. I think that book will totally speak to your heart.

In the early church, the average catechumenate was 5 years. Nowadays, it depends. For some people, it only takes a few months, but they're rare. I think for most it takes closer to a year.

It's not about "you have to read all this before you can become Orthodox". Think of illiterate shepherds somewhere on a hillside in Greece, who may not even own a copy of the Bible... but who know more Scripture by heart and are more Orthodox than I'll ever be.

Reading is good for those of us who are totally foreign to Orthodoxy, though. You wanna know what you're getting into. ;)

Let me know what you think as you start Facing East. I loved it.

[Philothei]

It may have been Facing East. I had too many books to carry but will check it out next time.
It seemed engaging, as it told her story of her walk through it.
There is a web site called Orthodox Church in America which has a lot of links and info.
A lot to learn, I would think.
A nice poster is actually sending me some books!
Its weird. We went to my first church 9a non denom one) last Sunday after being without a home church for years and though I love the worship (contemporary is our definite favorite) it seemed almost..bland.
Are you talking about your past Evangelical church?

God bless,
Philothei

[icedtea]

Are you talking about your past Evangelical church?

God bless,
PhilotheiYes, it was the first I went to after being born again.
Finally found a ride.

[icedtea]

It's not about "you have to read all this before you can become Orthodox".

Let me know what you think as you start Facing East. I loved it.Then what do you have to do? I am already a Christian. Obviously one must understand the church and its sacraments and tradition.
I really need to discuss with a priest.

It looks like a good book, she is an engaging writer and holds your interest. personal anecdotes along with church teaching.

[kamikat]

Then what do you have to do? I am already a Christian. Obviously one must understand the church and its sacraments and tradition.
I really need to discuss with a priest.


Basically you have to become a part of the Church life. If read all those books today and went into the priest's office and said you were ready to join the church, he would still make you wait until you had some services under your belt. Most, if not all, of our theology is taught during our services. Go to them, become immersed in them. Get an Orthodox prayer book. start saying some basic Orthodox prayers. Get an Orthodox Study Bible, with lots of good notes to read Scripture from an Orthodox view. Meet with a priest. Get to know the people in the parish. Live the Orthodox life for a while, then you will begin to understand the Church and it's traditions and Traditions.

[icedtea]

Thanks, I will have to do that; I was getting confused for a moment there.
I was brought up in a Catholic church, so am 'somewhat 'familiar.

[Prawnik]

It's not a matter of learning. There will not be a quiz: "How many Ecumenical Councils were there?" "Where did the Apostle Mark first serve as a Bishop?"

It is a matter of internalizing, a matter of living what the Church teaches, whether or not one can express it in so many words.

[Petronius]

With such a large world wide population of non-Christians, and people in many areas of non-Christian regions of the world that may never have heard of Jesus, why is it necessary for some people to go out of their way to offend people in a part of the world that's been Christian longer than there have been protestants? India, several hundred million Hindus. Why not go there and instead of just preaching help out the poor? Better yet, why not help some of the poor people right where you live?
From an objective point of view it seems like this is just a vacation dressed up as something else. Moldivan is a somewhat obsecure language, I doubt any of you speak it. No one learns a language in a weekend, so I'd have to say the thought you can evangelize people you can't even talk with is far fetched.


There are about 27 million people in the world who speak "Moldovan".
Municipalities like Torino in Italy have their official web pages in "Moldovan".
Guess what is it ?

[kamikat]

Thanks, I will have to do that; I was getting confused for a moment there.
I was brought up in a Catholic church, so am 'somewhat 'familiar.

It's not that hard. Orthodoxy is a faith to be lived, not studied. Sometimes, the discussions get very scholarly on here. However, Orthodoxy is not just for the scholars. It's the faith of illiterate peasants and little old ladies all over the world. I think sometimes, those of us who frequent message boards tend to forget that. Don't let the scholars intimidate you ;) I learned just as much about Orthodoxy from the little old ladies in my parish than from all the books I read before joining the Church.

[EmperorConstantine]

It's the faith of illiterate peasants and little old ladies all over the world.
Those ladies make great food! ;)

As St. Nektary of Optina said "Orthodoxy is life; one cannot talk about it, one must live it"

I always thought that quote was cool so I put it in my sig.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

And according to Greek Metropolitan Hierotheos, not only is Orthodox spirituality therapeutic, but Western "spiritualities" are not due to the fact that they are more scholastically centered.

Just the other day, after I explained the Harrowing of Hades to my Lutheran husband, he started talking about the Lutheran understanding of things, and how the Harrowing of Hades seemed to have logical errors. I said I'm trying to stop thinking everything has to be logically explained. (Paraphrasing because I don't remember exact wording now.) Despite all the theological reading I've been doing in the past two years, all the Orthodox articles I've read, and my priest speaking about the Harrowing of Hades, I couldn't possibly figure out how to answer hubby's objections. All I knew was that this was the understanding of the Ancient Church, and that had to be enough for me.

I am looking into Orthedoxy. you guys had alot to give and so reading it has been a challenge given im in school right now. We actually are going this weekend for three days of cultural training and we are having weekly meetings and so ill make sure my fellow evangelists know that you guys have asked that we look at your religion.

:thumbsup:

With such a large world wide population of non-Christians, and people in many areas of non-Christian regions of the world that may never have heard of Jesus, why is it necessary for some people to go out of their way to offend people in a part of the world that's been Christian longer than there have been protestants? India, several hundred million Hindus. Why not go there and instead of just preaching help out the poor? Better yet, why not help some of the poor people right where you live?
From an objective point of view it seems like this is just a vacation dressed up as something else. Moldivan is a somewhat obsecure language, I doubt any of you speak it. No one learns a language in a weekend, so I'd have to say the thought you can evangelize people you can't even talk with is far fetched.

Every time you guys talk about this, I remember my pastor taking a team of teenagers--the Russia Team--to Russia to evangelize. He and others would encourage hubby to go along, even though he can't stand anything made of sour milk (such as yogurt and other Russian dishes), and doesn't know a word of Russian (besides nyet). They'd speak through interpreters, and tell us how they were able to get past the language barriers. But I read what you guys say about it, and it's a totally different perspective.

It may have been Facing East. I had too many books to carry but will check it out next time.
It seemed engaging, as it told her story of her walk through it.
There is a web site called Orthodox Church in America which has a lot of links and info.
A lot to learn, I would think.
A nice poster is actually sending me some books!
Its weird. We went to my first church 9a non denom one) last Sunday after being without a home church for years and though I love the worship (contemporary is our definite favorite) it seemed almost..bland.

I used to love contemporary services as well, though some of the songs got a little lame ("yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes, yes, Lord" really annoyed us). I never got into the arm-waving, though. I wasn't raised that way. Then I started learning about Orthodox services, and became more and more dissatisfied with contemporary services. When my pastor (Presbyterian) decided we weren't contemporary enough, despite all the praise songs we already sang, she included a praise team and we sang even fewer hymns--and she began preaching on how we needed "relevance" in the church. I missed church one Sunday, and she passed out an article with a cartoon figure on it called "Friar Tuck." The figure said, "Not my grandparents, not my parents, but me, Lord." Soon after, I checked out an Orthodox service, and never went back.

[BabyLutheran]

I am the same way now, when I go to a contemporary service, I feel like I am just watching a TV show, but not a good one! On the other hand, my wife still loves it, and hates the DL. The compromise we have arrived at is a bad one: no church at all!

[Shubunkin]

It may not have to all be logical, but make some sense, at least in light of it all. Don't know if I'm making any sense here. :scratch:

[ufonium2]

There are about 27 million people in the world who speak "Moldovan".
Municipalities like Torino in Italy have their official web pages in "Moldovan".
Guess what is it ?

Some consider Moldovan to be its own language, distinct from Romanian. If you don't, then there are plenty of linguists who will back you up as well, but there's no need to be sarcastic about it. The poster had a valid point. The OP probably doesn't speak Romanian or Moldovan or Ukrainian or Russian or anything else they might hear in Moldova.

[Hoser03]

There are about 27 million people in the world who speak "Moldovan".
Municipalities like Torino in Italy have their official web pages in "Moldovan".
Guess what is it ?

27 million out of the world's 6 billion or so people isn't much. It's not a language one would find taught in North American schools, and probably only a handful of universities teach it. The odds that someone born and raised in North American speaks a relatively small central European language is remote to say the least. Russian, a much more spoken language, has a larger representation in universities but few North American public schools teach it. The languages a North American would be likely to be familiar with from school apart from English would be French, German, and Spanish. At that Americans are generally noted for being a monolingual nation. I'm aware that one might say Romanian and Moldovan are the same language, have no idea of it's true or not and I don't care. Outside of a few words of Serb and Russian profanity I was taught by linemates I know next to nothing about these languages and not many in North America do. This is just a distraction from the point I was making. A 21 year old American baptist from Flordia isn't going to speak Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, or any other central or eastern European language you're going to hear there. The sarcasm is just unncessary.

[ThePilgrim]

Just the other day, after I explained the Harrowing of Hades to my Lutheran husband, he started talking about the Lutheran understanding of things, and how the Harrowing of Hades seemed to have logical errors. I said I'm trying to stop thinking everything has to be logically explained. (Paraphrasing because I don't remember exact wording now.) Despite all the theological reading I've been doing in the past two years, all the Orthodox articles I've read, and my priest speaking about the Harrowing of Hades, I couldn't possibly figure out how to answer hubby's objections. All I knew was that this was the understanding of the Ancient Church, and that had to be enough for me.



:thumbsup:



Every time you guys talk about this, I remember my pastor taking a team of teenagers--the Russia Team--to Russia to evangelize. He and others would encourage hubby to go along, even though he can't stand anything made of sour milk (such as yogurt and other Russian dishes), and doesn't know a word of Russian (besides nyet). They'd speak through interpreters, and tell us how they were able to get past the language barriers. But I read what you guys say about it, and it's a totally different perspective.



I used to love contemporary services as well, though some of the songs got a little lame ("yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes, yes, Lord" really annoyed us). I never got into the arm-waving, though. I wasn't raised that way. Then I started learning about Orthodox services, and became more and more dissatisfied with contemporary services. When my pastor (Presbyterian) decided we weren't contemporary enough, despite all the praise songs we already sang, she included a praise team and we sang even fewer hymns--and she began preaching on how we needed "relevance" in the church. I missed church one Sunday, and she passed out an article with a cartoon figure on it called "Friar Tuck." The figure said, "Not my grandparents, not my parents, but me, Lord." Soon after, I checked out an Orthodox service, and never went back.
I'm not sure what "logical errors" your husband was finding in it, but as a former Lutheran, I would point out that it's officially (but not actively) taught by the Lutheran Church as well.

For that matter, I would point out that not only was it the understanding of the early Church, but it is also completely Scriptural. Hebrews talks about the Old Testament saints, saying, "But all of these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what had been promised, for God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us, they should not be made perfect." Then 1 Peter also talks of "preaching to the spirits in prison."

The fact that such a Biblical, historical doctrine is coming to be dismissed without a second thought is, to my way of thinking, a sign of how things have gone in Lutheranism.

Grace and peace,
John

[NyssaTheHobbit]

It is? My husband's under the impression it's very not-Lutheran. He's MS, by the way, not liberal.

And I agree about the verses in 1 Peter. That's how I was always taught, too.

[icedtea]

Just checked the book out; Facing East.
Also called a priest, and he will try to find a ride for us.
I would feel weird about going anew during Holy times such as this, especially since I read in another skimmed book you must dress up, and I have no dresses or skirts.

[EricTheRed]

I dont dress us even for Pascha.

[Akathist]

Just checked the book out; Facing East.
Also called a priest, and he will try to find a ride for us.
I would feel weird about going anew during Holy times such as this, especially since I read in another skimmed book you must dress up, and I have no dresses or skirts.

Don't worry about dressing up!! You can wear pants to almost all parishes. Some monestaries and a very few American Parishes might have some rules about that but none of the parishes I have ever visited. The local monestary never turns away a female in pants either.

Come and see! Holy Friday service is such a fantastic service I really encourage you to go to any of them but Holy Friday and Pascha are the top on my list of must not miss services of the year. Well, Holy Thursday's Passion Gospels is also great. .... and I do love Bridgegroom Matins... er... guess that covers nearly all of the whole week. I just love the services of Holy Week!

[kamikat]

Just checked the book out; Facing East.
Also called a priest, and he will try to find a ride for us.
I would feel weird about going anew during Holy times such as this, especially since I read in another skimmed book you must dress up, and I have no dresses or skirts.

Nice s