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Silouan
24th March 2007, 12:24 PM
In this thread, I would like to discuss a topic that is very interesting to me: ancient heresies in the modern world. To begin, I would like to state one rule for the thread: 1) Please DO NOT demonize any Christian group or denomination. We are not here to accuse and be hateful. Instead, lets just focus on the heresies and modern teachings that fall into one or more of these heresies.

The HERESIES (this is not an exhaustive list):

1) Adoptionism - taught that Jesus was born human and became divine later during his baptism and thus was adopted as the son of God.

2) Apollinarianism - taught that Jesus Christ had a human body and a human soul but no human rational mind (nous), because the Divine Logos had taken its place.

3) Arianism - taught that the Son of God was not God but rather a created being with a definite origin in time. In Arius's words, "there was [a time] when he was not." Arius denied the full deity of the preexistent Son of God who became incarnate ("the Word (Jesus Christ) became flesh" John 1:14 - NKJV). He held that the Son, while divine and like God, was created by God as the agent through whom he created the universe, and thus that there was a time when the Son was not. The Council of Nicea in 325, led in its teachings by Athanasius, condemned Arianism and maintained that Christ was God from God, Light from Light, Very God from Very God, begotten not made (not created), and One in essence with the Father, producing the first version of the Nicece Creed.

4) Docetism - taught that Jesus Christ only appeared to be man but was not in actuality. According to Docetae (Illusionists), the eternal Son of God did not really become human, have a physical body, or suffer on the cross; he only appeared to do so, i.e., his body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion.

5) Donatism - schismatic Christian sect, strongly opposed by Saint Augustine, that arose in North Africa in the fourth century A.D. and believed in sanctity as requisite for church membership and administration of all sacraments.

6) Monophysitism - This heresy denies the humanity of Christ. It removes the value of Christ's redemptive work, because it denies that Christ suffered as a man. It declares that Christ had a single (mono), divine, nature.

7) Montanism - apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed, in opposition to the Catholic view that, since the sinner’s contrition restored him to grace, the church must receive him again. Montanism antagonized the church because the sect claimed a superior authority arising from divine inspiration.

8) Nestorianism - teaches that the human and divine essences of Christ are separate and that there are two persons, the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, which dwelt in the man. Thus, Nestorians reject such terminology as "God suffered" or "God was crucified", because they believe that the man Jesus Christ suffered. Likewise, they reject the term Theotokos (Giver of birth to God) for the Virgin Mary, using instead the term Christotokos (giver of birth to Christ) or Anthropotokos (giver of birth to a man).

9) Sabellianism - also known as modalism, is a heresy which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, rather than three distinct persons. Modalism's unitarian view of God is commonly described by an analogy: water in its three states of ice, liquid, and steam appear to be different substances, but in reality they all are composed of the same chemical compound, H20. Likewise, for Sabellians or modalists God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit appear to be three distinct persons, but they are really just different manifestations of one solitary God.

I look forward to your responses!

Christ be with all!

Jacob4707
24th March 2007, 01:27 PM
I have a book entitled THE EARLIST CHRISTIAN HERETICS: Readings from Their Opponents, by Hultgren and Haggmark. The table of contents lists:

The Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic Era
Simon Magus and the Simonians
Nicolaus and the Nicolaitans
Menander
Cerinthus
On the Origins of Gnosticism

2nd-Century Gnostics
Carpocrates and the Carpocratians
Saturnius
Basilides and the Basilidians
Cerdo
Apelles
Valentinus and the Valentinians

Other Teachers and Sects of the Second Century
Marcion and Marcionism
Ebionites
Encratites
Montanus and the Montanists
Adoptionists (Dynamic Monarchism)
Patripassionists (Modalistic Monarchism)
Quartodecimans

I assume Wikipedia or other sources will describe the heresies espoused by or attributed to these persons.

Knowledge3
24th March 2007, 01:47 PM
I'm in favor of St. Cyril's 12 anathemas of Nestorius in the Council of Ephesus.

I once read from this forum that they attached Cyril's Christological formula to Apollinarian thought, I studied The Unity of Christ; it ironed out the specifics that Cyril's Christology was not actually attached to Apollinarism by explanation of his appropriation -theory.

The Coptic OO are One Incarnate Nature meaning one physis in Christ.

The EO are Chalcedon-compliant and agree from Chalcedon that Christ has two natures' divine/human in one person.

Shubunkin
24th March 2007, 01:56 PM
I notice that most of those listed were about the body or existence of Christ, etc.

I was having a chat with my Lutheran hubby just yesterday about this - and my knowledge of these heresies are minimal mind you. There are denominations/churches that believe the communion elements (and many use grape juice) are simply symbolic. Lutherans believe the real prescence of the body and blood in communion and they use wine. It seems that anything less than this is a heresy, to me. He agreed. It seems it is not recognizing Christ the way it should.

Please forgive me if I have offended ..... :sorry:

E.C.
24th March 2007, 02:10 PM
He agreed. It seems it is not recognizing Christ the way it should.
That makes sense. All I really have to ask are these rhetorical questions to some: Did Christ drink grape juice? Did grape juice even exist?


I have heard that the Assyrian Church of the East is Nestorian-like, however I haven't researched enough about them to know.

Monophysitism is a sticky mess because what the original poster described was Eutyches' thought in that Christ's divinity had swallowed His humanity.

Knowledge3
24th March 2007, 02:23 PM
Monophysitism is a sticky mess because what the original poster described was Eutyches' thought in that Christ's divinity had swallowed His humanity.

Exactly.

Shubunkin
24th March 2007, 02:25 PM
Grape juice did not exist for any length of time without refrigeration in the Holy Land. The fermenting process would start immediately in warm or hot weather, may take a day or two longer in colder weather.

Mary of Bethany
24th March 2007, 03:16 PM
Nestorianism, or some form of it, seems to be the most popular is some of the theology forums. Especially Mariology, because they don't want to give the title of Theotokos to Mary.

Mary

Mary of Bethany
24th March 2007, 03:20 PM
7) Montanism - apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed, in opposition to the Catholic view that, since the sinner’s contrition restored him to grace, the church must receive him again. Montanism antagonized the church because the sect claimed a superior authority arising from divine inspiration.

I'm trying to think if there are any groups who teach this today. I know there are some who say if you fall from grace, then you were never a Christian to begin with, but I can't think of any who would say that a fallen Christian could never be redeemed. Anyone know if there are groups today teaching thsi?

Mary

E.C.
24th March 2007, 06:15 PM
Nestorianism, or some form of it, seems to be the most popular is some of the theology forums. Especially Mariology, because they don't want to give the title of Theotokos to Mary.

Mary
Sometimes I wonder if they really know what Nestorianism is or if they know that it is heresy.

At times I also wonder why they reject the title Theotokos. Do they think that if the title were in use it would imply that there was no God before her? Or is it all 100% defiance to Catholicism without them knowing how much it really is heretical.

NyssaTheHobbit
24th March 2007, 08:52 PM
Montanism--Because of the prophesying and strictness, this has common elements with Pentecostalism.

Sabellianism--I found this in letters to the editor of Presbyterians Today!

Silouan
24th March 2007, 09:35 PM
I notice that most of those listed were about the body or existence of Christ, etc.

I was having a chat with my Lutheran hubby just yesterday about this - and my knowledge of these heresies are minimal mind you. There are denominations/churches that believe the communion elements (and many use grape juice) are simply symbolic. Lutherans believe the real prescence of the body and blood in communion and they use wine. It seems that anything less than this is a heresy, to me. He agreed. It seems it is not recognizing Christ the way it should.

Please forgive me if I have offended ..... :sorry:

Here is a piece of trivia for everyone: Who started the teetotaler movement away from wine to grape juice for communion? Mr. Welch himself from Welch's grape juice. I read in interesting article about this whole topic and how some theologians have reasoned that when wine is mentioned in scripture, it is actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.
I specifically remembered this article because they had a picture of the 'last supper' on the front with a bottle of Welch's grape juice instead of a chalice. I thought it was clever.

Silouan
24th March 2007, 09:37 PM
Monophysitism is a sticky mess because what the original poster described was Eutyches' thought in that Christ's divinity had swallowed His humanity.

This is an interesting point. If Christs divinity swallowed his humanity, what would it have done to the Theotokos? She would have been consumed!

Silouan
24th March 2007, 09:43 PM
I'm trying to think if there are any groups who teach this today. I know there are some who say if you fall from grace, then you were never a Christian to begin with, but I can't think of any who would say that a fallen Christian could never be redeemed. Anyone know if there are groups today teaching thsi?

Mary



I dont know of any that say if one falls from grace they can not be redeemed. One interesting point is that there have been modern day pentecostal/charismatic groups that 'trace' themselves back to the montanists. The montanists were a pseudo-charismatic group that emphasized ecstatic prophesies, etc. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Knowledge3
24th March 2007, 10:19 PM
I used to be a former persecutor of the TBN Church Network.

buzuxi02
25th March 2007, 02:06 AM
Ancient heresies revived in modern times is:
Chiliasm- various charismatic groups

Sabellanism- oneness pentecostals

docetism- a revised version followed by the JW, in the ressurection Jesus is only a spirit.

iconoclasm- most protestants
Montanism- small cult groups, aspects of this were believed by heavens gates, branch davidians and Jonestown.
Basically end of the world is near and true believers must all relocate to where their leader (who is the return of Christ or some divine messianic figure) wants them to.

repentant
25th March 2007, 02:21 AM
There is also chiliasm. Allthough this heresy does not do anything to the person of Christ, it contradicts Scripture.

Silouan
26th March 2007, 07:55 AM
Ancient heresies revived in modern times is:
Chiliasm- various charismatic groups

Sabellanism- oneness pentecostals

docetism- a revised version followed by the JW, in the ressurection Jesus is only a spirit.

iconoclasm- most protestants
Montanism- small cult groups, aspects of this were believed by heavens gates, branch davidians and Jonestown.
Basically end of the world is near and true believers must all relocate to where their leader (who is the return of Christ or some divine messianic figure) wants them to.

Could you explain Chiliasm?

Jacob4707
26th March 2007, 08:01 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiliasm

"Historically Christian premillennialism has also been referred to as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism". The theological term "premillennialism" did not come into general use until the mid-nineteenth century, a period when modern premillennialism was revived. Coining the word was "almost entirely the work of British and American Protestants and was prompted by their belief that the French and American Revolution (the French, especially) realized prophecies made in the books of Daniel and Revelation.""

Silouan
26th March 2007, 01:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiliasm

"Historically Christian premillennialism has also been referred to as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism". The theological term "premillennialism" did not come into general use until the mid-nineteenth century, a period when modern premillennialism was revived. Coining the word was "almost entirely the work of British and American Protestants and was prompted by their belief that the French and American Revolution (the French, especially) realized prophecies made in the books of Daniel and Revelation.""

I should have known that since I went to Dallas Theological Seminary, which is the hotbed of Dispensational Theology. Shows how much I listened in my Theology class. I guess thats a good thing! :) It was nice seeing you and your wife again last night!