Why There Cannot Be Predestination [Archive]

Matthan

23rd March 2007, 01:13 PM

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

oberland

23rd March 2007, 07:49 PM

Hi Matthen,

One view that you might want to think about is, when man fell from grace in the garden, he fell completely, and is unable to have a saving relationship with God, therefore being cut off from the presence of God, all of mankind is deserving of Gods anger, however God in his mercy has sent his only begotten Son to restore that relationship,so God is not predestining anyone to hell but rather he has devised a plan to save “as many who call on the name of the Lord” from hell.

The above is not the complete answer to predestination of course, but I hope that line of thought will stir the grey matter!

Matthan

23rd March 2007, 08:23 PM

You are right, oberland. Jesus was the perfect propituation that now and for all times permits God to dispense His grace on those who love Him. all they have to do is exercise their own free will and believe in the Son, and they will also get the Father.

Matthan

spiritwarrior37

23rd March 2007, 09:14 PM

PETE_

23rd March 2007, 11:44 PM

One could exercise their free will and follow the law perfectly, thus voiding the need to be among those God elects give grace.

Matthan

24th March 2007, 01:03 AM

Predestination and foreordination are biblical. The greek word "Proginosko" is translated in the following ways. 1. to have knowledge before hand; 2. to foreknow; 3. of those whom God elected to salvation; 4.to predestinate

It is used in the following ways in the KJV.foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1. Predestination is in the scriptures so one must believe in it.
I requested that folks read my OP carefully. You mentioned "to have knowledge before hand;" and "to foreknow". Isn't tht exactly what I said? God is omniscient. He surely foreknows everything, including who will eventually wind up in eternal Heaven. But foreknowing does not in any way equate to foreordination, or causing it to happen (which is what I stated in my last sentense. God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, but He did not cause them to fall. They used their own free will for that. And God does not foreordain either salvation or perdition to any person. Why is that? For the reasons I stated in my OP. If He predestined any person to hell, then that person would be in hell for what God required of him. And that means God would have to judge Himself, an impossible situation.

Please go back and carefully reread my OP. You may better understand what I stated.

Matthan

mlqurgw

24th March 2007, 01:40 AM

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:

So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan This is nothing less than circular reasoning proven by false dilemmas. It is also, and more importantly, a denial of the plain statements of Scripture. Neither your appeal to logic or your appeal to Scripture will hold water. It is based on a false premise that man has a free will and assumes the conclusion. While it may sound good it proves nothing either by Scripture or logic.

mlqurgw

24th March 2007, 02:09 AM

I made a very brief post because I do not feel the need to write a long, detailed one refuting the argument in the OP. Any student of the Scriptures knows that it denies the very plain statements concerning predestination in them. Any student of logic can spot the fallacies in the OP and I need not point them out.
I have no time to waste on such unscriptural and illogical tripe. He will not convince any who know truth nor will I convince any who would exalt man. It is a pointless argument.

Rather than debating predestination why don't we get into more urgent and profitable subjects? How is a man justified before God? Who is Christ and what did He do? Where is He now and what is He doing? What is sanctification? How does the Law fit into our lives today?
All of these subjects involve the person and work of Christ. There is no doubt that discussion of any of them will be both controversial and profitable to any who are seeking to learn.

Iosias

24th March 2007, 10:20 AM

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

To which I reply; the old age trick of the anti-predestinarian is to run to the Scriptural truth of reprobation and attack it there. Unfortunately you misconstrue what Scripture teaches and I offer what follows for your consideration and the consideration of those who read this thread.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 9:17-23 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

John Gill has well explained reprobation here:
Introduction (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_intro.htm)
SECTION 1. - Proverbs 16:4 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_section01.htm)
SECTION 2. - John 12:39, 40 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_section02.htm)
SECTION 3. - 1 Peter 2:8 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_section03.htm)
SECTION 4. - Jude 1:4 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_section04.htm)
SECTION 5. - Revelation 13:8 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter1/chap01_section05.htm)

He deals in depth with all the verses that anti-predestinationarians use in his The Cause of God and Truth (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/gills_archive.htm#5). I suggest that you read it carefully. :)

Iosias

24th March 2007, 10:27 AM

all they have to do is exercise their own free will and believe in the Son, and they will also get the Father.

Matthan

One wonders how a corpse can make himself live and how a spiritually dead man could make himself spiritually alive. But then the answer is to down play the effect of the fall and that when Scripture declares that "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor 2:14) because we are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins...and were by nature the children of wrath" (Eph 2:1, 3) you say that actually the corspe still has life within him to which I reply; if he still has life within him then he is not a corpse and is not dead but if however he is a corpse then he is dead and so has no life within him.

I agree with Augustus Toplady in his sermon which has been entitled Arminianism: The Golden Idol of Free Will (http://www.pbministries.org/articles/Toplady/Arminianism.htm).

Hagios17

24th March 2007, 10:43 AM

Not gonna waste my breath here. Amen.

Hagios17

24th March 2007, 10:46 AM

Sorry, wait that was disrespectful.

Let me rather say, that if you were to study the entire book of Ephessians, then deliver your belief from that book, I might consider considering what you say.

Hagios17

24th March 2007, 10:47 AM

But then again, I have no idea whether you beleive the book of Ephessians is part of the Authoritative word of God.

Matthan

24th March 2007, 11:02 AM

This is nothing less than circular reasoning proven by false dilemmas. It is also, and more importantly, a denial of the plain statements of Scripture. Neither your appeal to logic or your appeal to Scripture will hold water. It is based on a false premise that man has a free will and assumes the conclusion. While it may sound good it proves nothing either by Scripture or logic.
Sorry, but I totally disagree. It is not in any way circular reasoning, and there are no false delemmas involved anywhere. If you take the time to think about my reasoning, you will find that both my scriptural and logical reasoning cannot be denied. And, it is not BASED on a false premise of man's free will, it arrives at that conclusion. It assumes NOTHING, but only uses facts to arrive at more facts.

So miqurgw, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. Show me and the rest of the readers where God would not have to judge Himself if predestination is a reality. Or, are you saying that the final judgement is just a sham? The truth is that either we sin and die in our sins, or we sin and are justified by imputed righteousness. God will judge that ending for every person. If He caused either ending in any way, then He must judge Himself.

Sorry, but your generalized rebuttal falls flat on its empty face.

Matthan

Seeker of the Truth

24th March 2007, 11:06 AM

Denomination debates...

You have my support Matthan

maniac

24th March 2007, 01:25 PM

I think I'm going wade into this debate as I can hear both sides, or at least think I'm hearing both sides. I must say that I have yet to find that in scripture we have no mention of free will but we do find that man will be judged for his actions. So we infer that free will must exist. Whereas what Spiritwarrior is saying is correct, predestination and forordination are found throughout scripture both Old and New Testament. I do believe in free will and predestination, as I think predestination is the term used for God foreknowing our choices while knowing His plan simultaneously.

I agree with Matthan that if there were not choices then God would have to condemn his own action but since God has his plan and His plan must happen in order for prophecy to be true then He needs to have a control over things we cannot understand.

Hagios17 brings in a good point and in order to understand this efffectively we must look at all of scripture and be willing to abandon our positions of what we were taught if the Bible says differently.

Iosias

24th March 2007, 01:47 PM

So we infer that free will must exist.

No one denies free will as such but the point is what is our will actually free to do. Our will is in bondage to sin and so whilst free it is a slave and is unable to will anything good.

See:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%203/section_05.htm

CHAPTER 5. OF THE CORRUPTION OF HUMAN NATURE, AND THE IMPOTENCE OF THE WILL TO MAN TO THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUALLY GOOD.
Introduction (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_intro.htm)
SECTION 1. - Job 14:4 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section01.htm)
SECTION 2. - Psalm 51:5 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section02.htm)
SECTION 3. - Genesis 6:5 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section03.htm)
SECTION 4. - John 3:6 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section04.htm)
SECTION 5. - Romans 7:18, 19 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section05.htm)
SECTION 6. - Romans 8:7, 8 (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part%202/chapter5/chap5_section06.htm)

warriorforJesus

24th March 2007, 10:46 PM

DeaconDean

25th March 2007, 12:04 AM

I haven't been on CF for very long, but the one thing I have come to realize is that there are a bunch of well educated idiots on here. If you don't believe as they do you are wrong, everything you post, even when you give scripture references, is wrong. There are way to many holier than thou people. There are a few exceptions such as DeaconDean, mlqurgw, and a few others that are sincere and knowledgeable of the scriptures. But there is way to much bickering and putting down of other people.I have found most threads such as this one are started just for the sake of seeing how big of an argument they can get started. I came here to discuss topics and fellowship with other believers, but I can clearly see this cannot happen. So I say goodbye, for I will not be returning to CF. God bless.

I agree, if the Bible didn't actually use the word "predestinate" that would be another story. But it does, and to dispute God's word.

Matthan, have you ever heard of a "causative verb?" It sings of "fore-ordaination."

The Psalmist said:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou chooseth, -this is election, chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

And causeth to approach thee, -this is fore-ordaination. God caused those whom He choose, to approach Him, not man in his so called "free will."

Concerning "foreordaination," from Kittel's "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament," we learn this:

"proginwskein" usually means "to know beforehand" as human foresight or cleverness makes this possible. In the New Testament, "proginwskein" is refered to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordaination of His people, (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20)."(1) (2)

(1) On the underlying apocalyptic world view in 1 Pet. 1:20. (proegnwsmenou men pro katabolhV kosmou, fanerwqentoV de ep escatou twn cronwn) cf. esp. 4 Esr. 6:1 ff., and the comm. of R. Knopf and H. Windisch, ad. loc.

(2) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, editor, Translated by: Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Eerdmans Publishing, (1964), Reprinted 2006, Vol. I, p. 715-716

And just as a purely historical note, predestination and foreordaination have been believed in Baptist churches in America since at least 1775. As noted here:

"Beloved Brethren, -- In the primitive times, when people were converted by the ministry of the gospel, and united together in church relation and fellowship, it was the practice of the Apostles to establish them in the truths which they had believed and professed, Acts xv. 41, for their edification and comfort, Acts ix. 31. We now, according to our measure, would endeavor to follow this worthy pattern, for the like excellent design. The subject, which next in order comes to be considered, is the doctrine of God's decree. Confession of faith, chap. III. Whereon we observe,

1. That God, the supreme, who is self-existent, and every way an independent sovereign, the creator of all things, hath an absolute right to dispose of all his creatures; and before his works of old, to appoint and determine all things to a certain end. This article of our belief, both scripture and reason do jointly and sufficiently confirm, Isa. xlvi. 10; Psalm xxxiii. 11; Provo xix. 21.

2. The rule of his fore-appointment, of what shall come to pass in time, is the wise counsel of his most holy will and pleasure. Eph. i. 11.

3. In accomplishing his purpose, no violence is offered to the will of the creature, good, Psalm cx. 3; or bad, James i. 13, 14; nor the use of means taken away, Ezek. xxxvi. 37; neither is God, in anywise, the author of sin, though he decreed to permit it to be, Acts xiv. 16; Gen. xlv. 5; Acts ii. 23.

4. The special objects of God's decree are angels and men.

5. When all the human race, by the sin of the first man, were involved in guilt, Rom. v. 12, and fallen under condemnation, and all become the children of wrath; it would manifestly be doing them no injustice, if they were, to every individual, left in that state, and eternally punished for their sins: this would have been their proper desert, their just reward. But God, out of his mere free grace and love, without any moving cause in the parties chosen, hath predestinated some unto life, through a Mediator, Eph. i. 4; Rom. xi. 5, 6, (without any wrong done to others) together with all the means subservient to this end, viz., their redemption by the blood of Christ, and renovation by the Spirit of holiness, to the praise of his glorious grace; the other left to act in sin, to their final destruction, to the glory of divine justice, Rom. ix. 22, 23."

Let such know and learn, that the way for their relief is not by laboring to pry into the secret purpose of God, or in their thoughts to dwell upon it, to their own discouragement, but abide by, and cleave to, his revealed will, which directs all indigent ones to Christ the Mediator for supply, and to the use of those means prescribed for the satisfaction and peace of laboring souls: "Make your calling sure." 2 Pet. i.10. In so doing shall the fearful be able to look back, and know their election before time, and forward, and view their salvation to come, when time shall be no more. This glorious truth is not designed to deter troubled souls from coming to Jesus Christ.

CIRCULAR LETTER
Philadelphia Baptist Association
"The Decrees of God"
By Rev. Abel Morgan, Pastor
Middletown Baptist Church
1775

JOHN GANO, Moderator.
WIILLAM ROGERS, Clerk.

http://www.geocities.com/baptist_documents/1775.cl.phila.html

God Bless

Till all are one.

Seeker of the Truth

25th March 2007, 09:07 AM

I do not deny the fact that Bible uses the word 'predestine,' that's obvious enough.

I disagree with your interpretation of it, and Calvinists interpretation.

Seeker of the Truth

25th March 2007, 09:09 AM

Dean and Ron both flat out tell people, "your wrong."

Guess you haven't been here long enough...

Matthan

25th March 2007, 04:21 PM

I find it more than a bit amusing that one of the few things that the Catholic church and the Southern Baptist Convention agree on is the heresy of predestination where God preordains some to salvation and others to perdition.

Matthan

Seeker of the Truth

25th March 2007, 04:43 PM

edb19

25th March 2007, 07:40 PM

No one denies free will as such but the point is what is our will actually free to do. Our will is in bondage to sin and so whilst free it is a slave and is unable to will anything good.

Exactly - man, due to his free will, can only and will only choose sin. We only choose God after the Holy Spirit has convicted us and turned our hearts towards God.

JimfromOhio

25th March 2007, 09:23 PM

The only "freewill" we have is whether we acknowledge the "conviction" of the Holy Spirit to turn to God and repent. We don't choose God, God chose us as Ephesians 1:4 explains: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Jesus said in John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

MbiaJc

25th March 2007, 11:17 PM

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:

So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

God determined at the determent council that whosoever chooses to believe on His Son, He would give them power to become sons of God.

That is free will and predestination pure and simple.

DeaconDean

25th March 2007, 11:49 PM

I do not deny the fact that Bible uses the word 'predestine,' that's obvious enough.

I disagree with your interpretation of it, and Calvinists interpretation.

Dean and Ron both flat out tell people, "your wrong."

Guess you haven't been here long enough...

Its not my interpretation, or Ron's, or Calvin's. It is what God says, its what the Bible says, plain and simple. That was God speaking to Paul and Peter through the Holy Spirit.

I wanted to make sure what I said earlier was correct, so when I went home, I looked up the word "predestine" in Kittel's dictionary, here is what it says:

"Proorivzw:

This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only 6 times in the NT in the sense “to foreordain” “to predestinate.” Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizeinis a stronger form of oJpizeinv,a (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftn1)( Vol. I, p. 453). The synonyms and textual history show that the ref. in proginwvskeinis the same. Rom. 8:29: oti ouV proegnw, kai prowrisen summorfouV thV eikonoV tou uiou autou, eiV to einai auton :, Rom. 8:30: ouV ... prowrisen (A: proevgnw), touvtouV kai; ejkavlesen,(Vol. I, p. 715; Vol. III, p. 396). The omniscient God has determined everything in advance,b (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftn2) both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal.c (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftn3) When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Jesus Christ, it may be said: h ceir sou kai h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai.,Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn:
1 Cor. 2:7, (Vol. IV, p. 819). The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou :, Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proorisqenteV kata proqesin tou ta panta energountoV, Eph. 1:11d (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1)1 (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2)

a (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftnref1) proopizw. Cf. also E.v. Dobschu&tz, “Pradestinstion,” ThStKr, 106 (1934/35). 9-19, and K.Staab, Pauluskomm. Aus d. alten gr. Kirche (1933), (Orig.), 95 (Diodore of Tarsus).

b (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftnref2) The OT prophets also speak of what is determined far in advance, cf. esp. 2 Kings 19:25; Isa. 22:11.

c (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftnref3) R. Liechtenhan, “D. gottliche, Vorherbestimmung bei Pls. U. in d. Posidonianischen Philosophie,” FRL, NF, 18, (1922). 17-24.

d (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftnref1) If, acc. To Cr.-Ko., 822 “proopivzein is a purely formal concept, and not (like progivwvskein in Rom. 8:29), one which is independent and self-contained,” we have to remember that the decisive subj., God, overrides any such distinction.

1 (http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=33116218#_ftnref2) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Commentary by: K.L.Schmidt, Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI., Vol. V, p. 456, proopivzw

What I say has come from deep searching, and reading literally hundreds of articles and commentaries.

Other than eschatology, of which I have dedicated some 20 plus years to studying, election and predestination I have intensly studied for the last 8-9 years, as a friend of mine on the forums will testify to.

What gets me, is the fact that people will not let God be absolutely sovereign.

So what if God does create some for eternal life? So what if God does create some not for eternal life? Are we going be so arrogant as to question the "potter" as to why he made the clay into what He did?

Are we not taught:

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -Rom. 9:21 (KJV)

Are we not to allow God to form the creation any way He wants?

Are we gonna be arrogant and ask God:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" -Rom. 9:20 (KJV)

All I can say is what the scriptures teach, and they do teach that before this world was ever created, God chose some to be the recepticants of His divine love, for no other reason other than it pleased Him to do so. And with that decision, God foreordained the means to get us there.

Free will is an illusion. God Himself said:

"...the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" -Gen. 8:21 (KJV)

Jesus even said:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:" -Mt. 15:18-20 (KJV)

And until man has that supernatural, regenerating work done to him upon the heart by the Holy Spirit, man can not do nothing else other than what is in the heart.

Psa. 65:4 says:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Man does not approach God on his own, God through the workings of the Holy Spirit causes man to approach Him.

Did Paul not teach that God said:

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." -Rom. 9:15-16,18 (KJV)

It is God who chooses. It is God who calls. It is God who wills. It is God who causes man to approach Him. It is God who decides on whom, He will and will not have mercy on. And it is God who hardens the heart of those He hardens. God is the cause, not man and his free will.

Is not the creation subject to the creator?

Or are we going to make God subject to His creation?

Are we the potter or are we the clay?

You may or may not agree with this, but nevertheless, that is what the scriptures teach.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Matthan

26th March 2007, 12:19 AM

Exactly - man, due to his free will, can only and will only choose sin. We only choose God after the Holy Spirit has convicted us and turned our hearts towards God.
I guess your opinion surprises me. Here is another verse worth your study if and when you might have the opportunity. It is from 2nd Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

I did the analysis. The Greek is plain and easy to understand. And the obvious meaning is extremely clear. God want all men to be saved, but He knows only some will be saved. Why? Because only some will come to true repentance. But you believe whatever you want.

Matthan

Seeker of the Truth

26th March 2007, 09:37 AM

So what if God does create some for eternal life? So what if God does create some not for eternal life? Are we going be so arrogant as to question the "potter" as to why he made the clay into what He did?

Err, yeah. It goes against God's nature to just simply pick and choose who to live in eternal bliss and the rest to eternal torture. How ridiculous is that? What I don't understand is how you could possibly think that that is even possible. The god you speak of is certainly not the God of the Bible. For the God of the Bible is a loving God. Sure, He is certainly Just as well. But, to eternally torture someone because YOU made them believe not is ridiculous, Dean. I know I'm only 18, but my brain functions just as well as yours, if not better. And, I only say that because you obviously don't think about things like this (absolute Predestination) as much as I. Read the Bible, not a few verses in Ephesians, and you will see that the God of the Bible gives us a choice. He may predetermine after that choice, but that's just another interpretation of those "select" verses that you pull out.

It is God who chooses. It is God who calls. It is God who wills. It is God who causes man to approach Him. It is God who decides on whom, He will and will not have mercy on. And it is God who hardens the heart of those He hardens. God is the cause, not man and his free will.

"The acts of God are like the Sun, which could say, 'I both soften and harden.' Although these two actions are opposite, the sun would not speak falsely, because the same heat both softens wax and hardens mud. Similarly, on the one hand, the miracles performed through Moses hardened Pharaoh because of his own wickedness. But the softened the mixed Egyptian multitude, who left Egypt with the Hebrews."
-Origen

Matthan

26th March 2007, 09:50 AM

mlqurgw

26th March 2007, 02:31 PM

You know, when I started this thread, all I had in mind was to point out a very basic truth relating to the heresy of predestination, and I figured (hoped?) that common sense would rule the day and folks would see the truth. Of course I now better understand that there are quite a few readers and contributors here who feel just the opposite, and actually believe in predestination by God. And personally, I find that very troubling.

Oh, nobody who believes in God would ever doubt that He created everything, and that He is in ultimate control of everything. But, what I find much harder to believe, is that there are so many individuals who cannot see that God, in His own infinite wisdom, omniscience and omnipotence, permits man to think for himself, and make decisions for himself. God certainly knows who will be sharing Heaven with Him, but He in no way forces those persons to make the "right" decisions, neither does He in any way cause them to make those decisions that would keep them from ever knowing Him. He must always remain faithful to His own holiness, and requiring any person to love Him would not do that. He wants us to love Him, but He will never require us to love Him.

Anyone who looks at Genesis and the saga of Adam and Eve should quickly understand that there cannot be anything like predestination by God. If there were, then Adam would never have sinned. But, he did sin. And God knew he would sin, well before he actually sinned. God did not cause Adam to sin, neither did He prevent it from happening. He could have done either, because He is God Almighty. Because He is God, He did neither. Why was that? Because while He has an overall plan for mankind, and while He is in charge of everything, He still wants us to come to Him. He wants our love for Him to be freely given by us, and not some kind of rquirement by Him. We must want to be with Him, and serve Him. And that, my Christian brothers and sisters, absolutely requires our own free will.

Now, what I am about to say should not be taken as either an insult or as any kind of "I'm smarter than you are" situation. You folks who cling to calvinism should do a complete rethink on your beliefs. Place your trust in God alone, and not man's faulty reasoning. Please remember that I really am a country boy, and not very smart. The revelation of God having to judge Himself if there were predestination is not something I thought up. It came to me out of the blue. More importantly, it came to me for a specific reason. So please ask yourself why it came to me. And also ask yourself about God's judgement of Himself, too.

Matthan Mattan;
I do understand both your earnestness and concern that others know truth. I share it. I am not here to make people Calvinists. I could care less if you are or aren't. I am not a Calvinist strictly speaking. Nor am I Reformed. There are many things in both systems that I strongly disagree with. Still, the truth of God is extremely important to me. I have absolutely no doubt that the Doctrines of Grace commonly called the five points are truth. I find them all over Scripture and have had them written on my heart by the Spirit. They are humbling and comforting truths.
The problem I see with most arguments, including yours, against them is the lack of knowledge of what those doctrines actually teach. That is why we constantly reply straw man. It is both frustrating and annoying to have to correct the false views of "Calvinism" only to have them ignored and the same old arguments repeated.
Believe it or not I do understand the teaching of free will and recognize that it does appeal to us naturally. If God had not taught me these things by His Word through the Spirit I would believe the same as you.
I would much rather speak the truth in love than out of frustration at the constant barrage of straw man arguments that never seem to end. I have heard your argument before. It isn't really new. I have been at this a long time and am tired of it.

Hagios17

26th March 2007, 04:13 PM

Matthan, I'm a little skeptical to give you this. Perhaps I am wrong, cause it kinda implies Yeshua made all things, but I'm gonna quote it here. Do with it what you will...

This is just something I was exclusively thinking about. I had no help from any anti Catholic or Anglican reformer, etc. This is just some of my ideas, reflections and thoughts while contemplating God's carnal-mind-breaking-and-spiritual-mind-awakening-word... what do you think?

Statement: God has foreknowledge of everything; knows everything before it existed, i.e. "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb..." or as in Ephessians.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything else besides God

Premise: If Object A existed before Object B, (being everything besides Object A), then Object A created Object B.

The assumption is that because Object A is the only possible pre-existent entity to Object B, being absolutely everything else besides Object A, it must have then created Object B.

----------
Possible Inconsistencies:

Now if we say human choice and action aren't included in Object B then the statement and premise changes, that is if you agree with my statement and premise:

New Statement: God doesn't have foreknowledge of everything; God never created and formed everything.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything God created
Object C = Everything God hasn't created

New Premise: If Object A and Object C are both "undetermined", and Object B is determined by Object A, then Object C existed before Object B with Object A.

Thus in a sense, by saying something is "undetermined" you are implying that it has the very nature of God to pre-existent, etc.

Perhaps Free will is just another reason for protestants and Catholics to worship their wills? And perhaps Free will renders itself a God? (The Bible does talk about those who worship themselves.)

Matthan

26th March 2007, 07:45 PM

Matthan, I'm a little skeptical to give you this. Perhaps I am wrong, cause it kinda implies Yeshua made all things, but I'm gonna quote it here. Do with it what you will...

"This is just something I was exclusively thinking about. I had no help from any anti Catholic or Anglican reformer, etc. This is just some of my ideas, reflections and thoughts while contemplating God's carnal-mind-breaking-and-spiritual-mind-awakening-word... what do you think?

Statement: God has foreknowledge of everything; knows everything before it existed, i.e. "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb..." or as in Ephessians.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything else besides God

Premise: If Object A existed before Object B, (being everything besides Object A), then Object A created Object B.

The assumption is that because Object A is the only possible pre-existent entity to Object B, being absolutely everything else besides Object A, it must have then created Object B.

----------
Possible Inconsistencies:

Now if we say human choice and action aren't included in Object B then the statement and premise changes, that is if you agree with my statement and premise:

New Statement: God doesn't have foreknowledge of everything; God never created and formed everything.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything God created
Object C = Everything God hasn't created

New Premise: If Object A and Object C are both "undetermined", and Object B is determined by Object A, then Object C existed before Object B with Object A.

Thus in a sense, by saying something is "undetermined" you are implying that it has the very nature of God to pre-existent, etc.

Perhaps Free will is just another reason for protestants and Catholics to worship their wills? And perhaps Free will renders itself a God? (The Bible does talk about those who worship themselves.)

I'm afraid you missed the point altogether. And the logic of your argument can be found somewhere between silly :P and non-existent :cry: . God did create man, but then He gave man the use of his own will, thus making it "free" will. God wanted man to freely decide to follow Him, but God did not want to require man to follow Him. That is why God wanted Adam to abide by the few laws set down before him, and Adam decided to violate those laws. That is why God wanted the Israelites to worship only Him, and the Israelites decided to instead worship idols. That is why God wanted the Jews to accept Jesus as the Son of God, but the Jews instead decided to reject Him and keep their status quo. That is why God wants us to freely come to Him, and why some do while others do not.

The OT is chucked full of situations where God wanted one thing and man decided on his own to do something else.

Yes, God did create everything. Therefore, Yes, God did create man. And, as part of that creation of man, God gave man the ability to make decisions for himself. Those decisions do not affect God in any way, but only affect man and his relationship with God, or his lack of a relationship with God. Man determines his own destiny with respect to God by freely doing the work of God (and not his own work or works), and God does not interfere because God does not respect persons.

As I stated in an earlier post, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. Man has free will, and examples that man has used his own free will can be found from Genesis to Revelation.

Do not equate pre-knowledge (omniscience) of God with pre-ordination by God. Of course God knows everything that will happen, but that in no way requires Him to also cause everything to happen. The Bible is also chucked full of examples of that fact as well.

You see, the entire theory of predestination, or preordination by God (as opposed to pre-knowledge without divine decree to cause any actions) is a product of sinful man. It really does not come from God, but man in his faulty wisdom states that God meant it to be so even if God did not clearly state it to be so. But God does not work that way. By way of example, He clearly wanted the Jews to come to Him, and worship Him only. But they were a stiff-necked people, and did their own thing using their own free will. (How hard do you think it would have been for God to require the Jews to worship Him?) But He didn't, so why didn't He? Because that was not the way He wanted it to be. He wanted them to worship Him of their own free will and accord.

So He sent Jesus. One of His stated goals was to make the Jews jealous of the Gentiles, which once again requires them to use their own free will. He wanted all men to come to Him by using their own free will. But He never required them to come to Him, which He certainly could have done had He wanted to. Why didn't He want to? Free will, once again. He wants people to freely love Him, not love Him because He requires or preordains that love from them. He knows that such affection on their parts would not be any affection at all, only His power being demonstrated.

Hey, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. And God cannot judge Himself.

Matthan

Hagios17

27th March 2007, 12:17 AM

God gave man free will, the ability to make decisions himself? Do you understand the implications of "God gave man free will"?

...Where did God get this free will? Did he peradventure find it floating in pre=existent realiy with him... or did he himself... CREATE... our uncreated wills?

But, I never expected you to state more than motivating. I honestly don't beleive talking about Choice proves free will. I choose, I act... I deliberate, but that is not to say that I have free will. You haven't really addressed my statement and premise really.

How has God created this uncreated will (free will) *uherm... inconsistency... contradiction

DeaconDean

27th March 2007, 02:35 AM

Err, yeah. It goes against God's nature to just simply pick and choose who to live in eternal bliss and the rest to eternal torture. How ridiculous is that? What I don't understand is how you could possibly think that that is even possible. The god you speak of is certainly not the God of the Bible. For the God of the Bible is a loving God. Sure, He is certainly Just as well. But, to eternally torture someone because YOU made them believe not is ridiculous, Dean. I know I'm only 18, but my brain functions just as well as yours, if not better. And, I only say that because you obviously don't think about things like this (absolute Predestination) as much as I. Read the Bible, not a few verses in Ephesians, and you will see that the God of the Bible gives us a choice. He may predetermine after that choice, but that's just another interpretation of those "select" verses that you pull out.

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

Nevertheless, this will be my last post in this thread. Since it is the opinion of most, that I am so wrong, I will post this one last item, and them I'll take my leave and let you good poeple hash this out amongest yourselves.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)
-Acts 13:48 (GNT)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
-Acts 13:48 (KJV)

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.

The angels are spirits which in the divine service are sent to minister to those who shall inherit salvation (Hb. 1:14). Moses was qerapwn eiV marturion twn lalhqhsomenwn, a minister appointed to bear witness to what should be said (Hb. 3:5). What was written in scripture was written for the instruction of later generations (Rom. 15:4). Paul is appointed to publish the good news (Rom. 1:1). His readers are not appointed to wrath but to the winning of salvation (1 Thes. 5:9; 2 Thes. 2:13), to sonship (Eph. 1:5). God has begotten believers again to a living hope and an incorruptable inheritance (1 Pet. 1:3f.).
In the NT, however, there is an appointment not only to eternal life (Acts 13:48 tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion) but also judicially. though not as a decretum absolutum, to stumbling in the case of disobedient (1 Pet. 2:8 eiVo [proskoptein] kaieteqhsan) -> tassw, tiqhmi. If God does not not have the direct purpose, He certainly has the right and the power to appoint vessels to -> atimian as well as to -> timhn (Rom. 9:21 ff. and a little less sharply in 2 Tim. 2:20 f.). How to define and to delimit the doctrine of twofold predestination is another question. But it certainly cannot be ruled out altogether."
-Theological Dictionary of the New Thestament,
Gerhard Kittel, editor, Geoffery W. Bromeily, Translator,
Vol. II, p. 428

zwh in a generic sense, it means life, a living existence, but in the NT, this word is used more in reference to the spiritual life of the believer whom has been delievered from the proper penalty of sin, and of the final life redeemed, it also has reference to life, the source of spiritual life. The sovereignty of God is expressed in the NT in OT phrases like: osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion, Acts 13:48 and also by originally deterministic ideas like that of the book or books of life in which those predestinated to life are inscribed, though the element of determinism is now removed.
-Ibid, p. 864

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."
-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Ron, if I have offended you, then I apologize. I will still continue to respect and value your opinion.

Now that I've had my say, and since opinion prevails against me, I'll bow out gracefully, wish you all God Bless, and take my leave. And I know this will make some very happy.

May the Lord God bless you each and every one.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Seeker of the Truth

27th March 2007, 08:35 AM

Dean, I never said I didn't believe in Predestination. I believe in both Predestination and Free-Will.

Is that possible? Well, yes.

It seems as though a lot of this discussion between some Calvinists and I has actually been one large misconception.

I do believe that God knows who are going to "be saved." I also believe He elected them to actually be saved. As God knew beforehand that they would have the faith, they would repent of their sins, and they would do His will. So, He sent Christ to save those that believe, repent, and do His will (aka "get saved").

Now, do I believe that God gives some faith and others no faith? Certainly not.

Do I believe that God would send some to Heaven because He gave them the faith and the others to Hell because He gave them no faith? Again, no.

For this, you have offered no Scriptural evidence. Please, PM me if you want to discuss this latter part of this post.

mlqurgw

27th March 2007, 09:30 AM

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

Nevertheless, this will be my last post in this thread. Since it is the opinion of most, that I am so wrong, I will post this one last item, and them I'll take my leave and let you good poeple hash this out amongest yourselves.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)
-Acts 13:48 (GNT)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
-Acts 13:48 (KJV)

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.

The angels are spirits which in the divine service are sent to minister to those who shall inherit salvation (Hb. 1:14). Moses was qerapwn eiV marturion twn lalhqhsomenwn, a minister appointed to bear witness to what should be said (Hb. 3:5). What was written in scripture was written for the instruction of later generations (Rom. 15:4). Paul is appointed to publish the good news (Rom. 1:1). His readers are not appointed to wrath but to the winning of salvation (1 Thes. 5:9; 2 Thes. 2:13), to sonship (Eph. 1:5). God has begotten believers again to a living hope and an incorruptable inheritance (1 Pet. 1:3f.).
In the NT, however, there is an appointment not only to eternal life (Acts 13:48 tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion) but also judicially. though not as a decretum absolutum, to stumbling in the case of disobedient (1 Pet. 2:8 eiVo [proskoptein] kaieteqhsan) -> tassw, tiqhmi. If God does not not have the direct purpose, He certainly has the right and the power to appoint vessels to -> atimian as well as to -> timhn (Rom. 9:21 ff. and a little less sharply in 2 Tim. 2:20 f.). How to define and to delimit the doctrine of twofold predestination is another question. But it certainly cannot be ruled out altogether."
-Theological Dictionary of the New Thestament,
Gerhard Kittel, editor, Geoffery W. Bromeily, Translator,
Vol. II, p. 428

zwh in a generic sense, it means life, a living existence, but in the NT, this word is used more in reference to the spiritual life of the believer whom has been delievered from the proper penalty of sin, and of the final life redeemed, it also has reference to life, the source of spiritual life. The sovereignty of God is expressed in the NT in OT phrases like: osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion, Acts 13:48 and also by originally deterministic ideas like that of the book or books of life in which those predestinated to life are inscribed, though the element of determinism is now removed.
-Ibid, p. 864

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."
-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Ron, if I have offended you, then I apologize. I will still continue to respect and value your opinion.

Now that I've had my say, and since opinion prevails against me, I'll bow out gracefully, wish you all God Bless, and take my leave. And I know this will make some very happy.

May the Lord God bless you each and every one.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one. I am not sure why you would think any of this would offend me, my brother. I find nothing in it that I would disagree with. With the possible exception of the statement that God proffers faith to all, which I bolded. Though even that is an understandable difference.

eldermike

27th March 2007, 09:57 AM

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:

So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan
So, God learns things and then judges them? and thus has not, all knowledge?

We face a problem when trying to understand doctrines, it's Theology. God's nature is what it is.
God is timeless and thus we can't apply limits of time on God.
God knows everything, thus we can't find Him learning something new about men.
These two issue together are enough to make me search deeper.

Matthan

27th March 2007, 10:24 AM

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)
-Acts 13:48 (GNT)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
-Acts 13:48 (KJV)

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."
-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Till all are one.

Dear Dean and Ron, I believe I now understand better the why and how we differ in our beliefs on this subject. You freely admit that God pro-offers faith to all, but then rely on God's specific election to salvation for certain chosen individuals based on His own Holy plan. My contention is that God pro-offers faith to all based on their choice and desire to do His work, which is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Our primary differences appear to revolve around the tern "elect" and "election" by God. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to support the position that God makes the choice for man on who is elected, and who is not. I believe that God permits man to make the choice of whether or not he will will love God. If he does develop a deep, abiding faith in Jesus as the Christ of God, and if he does repent of his sinful ways, then God will call him "elected", or justified, or saved.

You apparently believe a person elected to salvation is born with justification already imputed to him by God. I believe man must first demonstrate a desire to be justified, by doing the work of God, before God would imput righteousness to him.

Basically it all comes down to this. You maintain that, because God knows who will choose Him and who will not, that He pre-selects these individuals for justification. I, on the other hand, believe that He knows who will choose Him and who will not, and He permits those individuals to arrive at that belief on their own.

You perfer to contend that God specifically chooses those individuals who will surround Him, and worship Him, and serve Him for all eternity. I believe He leaves that decision up to individual persons to make. Our primary difference on this matter is desire. With your scenario, God creates man's desire to want to be with Him eternally. With my scenario God permits man to create his own desire to want to be with Him.

When we look at the whole of Scripture, I believe my point of view is by far the stronger. Jesus teaches us that we (whosoever) must believe in Him if we hope to obtain salvation. Peter clearly tells us that God wants all men to come to Him (in faith). The totality of verses instructing us to believe in order to obtain eternal life is simply overwhelming.

You equate fore-knowledge with fore-ordination, while I believe fore-knowledge does not require fore-ordination. I firmly believe God wants those who choose HIm to want to choose Him of their own free will, and all others are doomed eternally. You maintain that God determines who will choose Him, and He has already caused all others to be doomed.

So, is God a loving God, or is He an absolute dictator who makes every single decision on men? Since man must "earn" the wrath of God, I personally believe He is a completely loving God in all ways. You can believe what you want.

Matthan

Seeker of the Truth

27th March 2007, 11:55 AM

Exactly what I've been trying to say, Matthan.

JimfromOhio

27th March 2007, 01:03 PM

Basically it all comes down to this. You maintain that, because God knows who will choose Him and who will not, that He pre-selects these individuals for justification. I, on the other hand, believe that He knows who will choose Him and who will not, and He permits those individuals to arrive at that belief on their own.

You perfer to contend that God specifically chooses those individuals who will surround Him, and worship Him, and serve Him for all eternity. I believe He leaves that decision up to individual persons to make. Our primary difference on this matter is desire. With your scenario, God creates man's desire to want to be with Him eternally. With my scenario God permits man to create his own desire to want to be with Him.

When we look at the whole of Scripture, I believe my point of view is by far the stronger. Jesus teaches us that we (whosoever) must believe in Him if we hope to obtain salvation. Peter clearly tells us that God wants all men to come to Him (in faith). The totality of verses instructing us to believe in order to obtain eternal life is simply overwhelming.

You equate fore-knowledge with fore-ordination, while I believe fore-knowledge does not require fore-ordination. I firmly believe God wants those who choose HIm to want to choose Him of their own free will, and all others are doomed eternally. You maintain that God determines who will choose Him, and He has already caused all others to be doomed.

So, is God a loving God, or is He an absolute dictator who makes every single decision on men? Since man must "earn" the wrath of God, I personally believe He is a completely loving God in all ways. You can believe what you want.

Matthan

Not Sovereign Grace?

God chose us, we didn't choose Him. John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

I posted this in another thread:
The only "freewill" we have is whether we acknowledge the "conviction" of the Holy Spirit to turn to God and repent. We don't choose God, God chose us. People are confused about "human decisions" and "God's decisions". Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the same as rejecting salvation.

Romans 9:19-20. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not relieve their responsibility continuing in sin and are lost, because they do it willfully, and resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

They are responsible for their sin, not God.

“God knows instantly and effortlessly all matters, all mind and every mind, all spirits, all being and every being, all creaturehood and all creatures, every plurality and all pluralities, all law and every law, all relations, all causes, all thoughts, all mysteries, all enigmas, all feeling, all desires, every uttered secret, all thrones and dominions, all personalities, all things visible and invisible in heaven and in earth, motion, space, time, life, death, good, evil, heaven, and hell…” A. W. Tozer (By the way, Dr Tozer was not a Reformed preacher but he sounded like one).

mlqurgw

27th March 2007, 02:38 PM

Dear Dean and Ron, I believe I now understand better the why and how we differ in our beliefs on this subject. You freely admit that God pro-offers faith to all, but then rely on God's specific election to salvation for certain chosen individuals based on His own Holy plan. My contention is that God pro-offers faith to all based on their choice and desire to do His work, which is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Our primary differences appear to revolve around the tern "elect" and "election" by God. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to support the position that God makes the choice for man on who is elected, and who is not. I believe that God permits man to make the choice of whether or not he will will love God. If he does develop a deep, abiding faith in Jesus as the Christ of God, and if he does repent of his sinful ways, then God will call him "elected", or justified, or saved.

You apparently believe a person elected to salvation is born with justification already imputed to him by God. I believe man must first demonstrate a desire to be justified, by doing the work of God, before God would imput righteousness to him.

Basically it all comes down to this. You maintain that, because God knows who will choose Him and who will not, that He pre-selects these individuals for justification. I, on the other hand, believe that He knows who will choose Him and who will not, and He permits those individuals to arrive at that belief on their own.

You perfer to contend that God specifically chooses those individuals who will surround Him, and worship Him, and serve Him for all eternity. I believe He leaves that decision up to individual persons to make. Our primary difference on this matter is desire. With your scenario, God creates man's desire to want to be with Him eternally. With my scenario God permits man to create his own desire to want to be with Him.

When we look at the whole of Scripture, I believe my point of view is by far the stronger. Jesus teaches us that we (whosoever) must believe in Him if we hope to obtain salvation. Peter clearly tells us that God wants all men to come to Him (in faith). The totality of verses instructing us to believe in order to obtain eternal life is simply overwhelming.

You equate fore-knowledge with fore-ordination, while I believe fore-knowledge does not require fore-ordination. I firmly believe God wants those who choose HIm to want to choose Him of their own free will, and all others are doomed eternally. You maintain that God determines who will choose Him, and He has already caused all others to be doomed.

So, is God a loving God, or is He an absolute dictator who makes every single decision on men? Since man must "earn" the wrath of God, I personally believe He is a completely loving God in all ways. You can believe what you want.

MatthanLord willing I will be able to give you a more detailed point by point response later tonight. I have to get ready to go to my paying job at the moment. :sigh:
Let me say at this point that you are getting closer. I commend you for considering things a little differently than you had before. Though we are still qiute a distance apart we are coming closer. I am encouraged. :)

Matthan

27th March 2007, 03:27 PM

Dean and all others interested in this discussion. I believe there may be a middle ground of sorts, but you will have to comment on that....

The entire contention surrounding the doctrine or concept of predestination involves one question. What is God’s point of view on man’s eternal salvation?
Those who subscribe to predestination by God, or that God pre-selects some individuals for justification towards eternal salvation, and He (logically) also pre-selects all others for eternal destruction. They feel that God "elects" or chooses certain individuals to eternal bliss, and this election actually took place before the foundation of the world was laid. Therefore, predestination to these folks means exactly that, where some individuals are predestined by God to serve Him eternally. Everybody else, by either God’s decree or His withheld justification, goes to the lake of fire.

But there are many individuals who do not believe God predestines any person to eternal salvation. That God would "pre-select" some people for justification while causing all others to be (logically) pre-selected for eternal damnation , and there is ample proof in Scripture to support their beliefs.

So, here is my personal opinion that I believe harmonizes all Scripture for both sides of this debate. God in His omniscience (all-knowing character) surely does know who among all men will decide to do His work and believe in His Son as the Christ of God, and who will repent of their sinful ways. He has even caused their names to be found written in the Book of Life. In that regard, they are predestinated by Him. Because He has caused their names to be recorded among the saved, they have been "elected" to that end.

But, just as He neither caused nor prevented Adam’s fall when He knew far in advance that Adam would fall, in order to preserve His own holiness He does not cause or prevent* (see note below) any person from following the clear and direct instructions of Jesus and doing His work, which is believing in Jesus as the Son of God. They must desire to learn about Jesus, and develop a belief in Him, and repent of their sins, before they can be baptized by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This necessarily requires the use of their own free will in order to arrive at their desired end, which ultimately is salvation. For anyone who does not use his own free will to develop such a belief in Jesus, the misuse of his own free will causes him eternal damnation.

In summary, God predestinates all humans in that He knows who will end up in Heaven, and who will end up in eternal destruction. But, God does not predestinate any* (see same note below) person to either Heaven or eternal destruction in that He does not cause or declare any person saved or damned. They end up in their eternal condition all by themselves, as a result of the use of their own free will.

God certainly knows who will be saved, but He does not cause them to be saved.

God certainly knows who will be damned, but He does not cause them to be damned.

God is no respecter of persons, but will love all who love Him.

God desires that all men come to Him, but He knows some will choose not to come to Him.

Matthan

* Certain individuals are so depraved in the sight of God that He does send them strong delusion that they might not be saved. And Jesus spoke in parables so that some would not understand His teachings and He should have to heal (save) them. Scriptural citations available on request.

JimfromOhio

27th March 2007, 03:37 PM

God certainly knows who will be saved, but He does not cause them to be saved.

God certainly knows who will be damned, but He does not cause them to be damned.

God is no respecter of persons, but will love all who love Him.

God desires that all men come to Him, but He knows some will choose not to come to Him.

Matthan

* Certain individuals are so depraved in the sight of God that He does send them strong delusion that they might not be saved. And Jesus spoke in parables so that some would not understand His teachings and He should have to heal (save) them. Scriptural citations available on request.

How do you explain:

Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Matthan

27th March 2007, 06:05 PM

How do you explain:

Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

I can only try. Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus is talking about the many people who WANT to be Christians. But many of them want to also do things their way, and not God's way. They think they can be real nice to pelple, and ligth candles in memory of the dead, and pray to Mary, and do all sorts of charity work, and kneel before all sorts of idols. There are others who hear the word, and get all excited, but then lose their excitement and go back to their life of sin. (Oh, just think about the parable of the sower) But God is rather specific in His requirements about how we are to go about believing in Him. The few who do it His way, through the use of their own free will, will find Him, and He will never let them go.

You also questioned John 15:16 This entire discourse is between Jesus and His disciples. Of course He specifically chose each of them. We are told in Scripture that He chose each of them. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with His choosing individuals to be saved. Jim, you can't take a verse out of its context and expect to make it fit into another unrelated context.
I would suggest you try reading John Chapter 13, through 15 to get the full and complete meaning of what Jesus was talking about.

John 15:19 Please reread the above paragraph.

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 Well, let's look at two verses there.

13. "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here is a classic example of what I wrote in my threads. God certainly knew who would be found in the Book of Life. But, as these two verses clearly prove, the people Paul is writing to had to develop their "belief of the truth", which certainly denotes the use of their free will. After all, they were called by the gospel, right. And we can certainly (and logically) conclude that others heard that same gospel and decided not to believe in Jesus, right? After all, I bet you know some people who have heard about Jesus but have decided not to believe in Him. Couldn't it be the same for paul and his preaching?

1st Peter 2:9 Peter is talking to believers. But look at verse 7, and you will see "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient" Hummm.... The faithful are "believers" And the non-believers are "disobedient". Now, that sure sounds like free will to me, with some believing and others not believing. But you call it what you will...

Revelation 17:14 Once again I believe this is in reference to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be found in the Book of Life. In that regard, the saved definitely are "called" and "chosen." But "faithful" seems to once again reflect a sense of free will, doesn't it. Hey, you be the judge on that.

And yes, I stand by all of my entries in this post. I believe tht it you open your mind, read what I have written, and try to understand, you too will wind up thinking that "predestinate" refers only to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but being no respecter of persons, He causes neither.

Matthan

JimfromOhio

27th March 2007, 06:21 PM

I can only try. Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus is talking about the many people who WANT to be Christians. But many of them want to also do things their way, and not God's way. They think they can be real nice to pelple, and ligth candles in memory of the dead, and pray to Mary, and do all sorts of charity work, and kneel before all sorts of idols. There are others who hear the word, and get all excited, but then lose their excitement and go back to their life of sin. (Oh, just think about the parable of the sower) But God is rather specific in His requirements about how we are to go about believing in Him. The few who do it His way, through the use of their own free will, will find Him, and He will never let them go.

You also questioned John 15:16 This entire discourse is between Jesus and His disciples. Of course He specifically chose each of them. We are told in Scripture that He chose each of them. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with His choosing individuals to be saved. Jim, you can't take a verse out of its context and expect to make it fit into another unrelated context.
I would suggest you try reading John Chapter 13, through 15 to get the full and complete meaning of what Jesus was talking about.

John 15:19 Please reread the above paragraph.

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 Well, let's look at two verses there.

13. "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here is a classic example of what I wrote in my threads. God certainly knew who would be found in the Book of Life. But, as these two verses clearly prove, the people Paul is writing to had to develop their "belief of the truth", which certainly denotes the use of their free will. After all, they were called by the gospel, right. And we can certainly (and logically) conclude that others heard that same gospel and decided not to believe in Jesus, right? After all, I bet you know some people who have heard about Jesus but have decided not to believe in Him. Couldn't it be the same for paul and his preaching?

1st Peter 2:9 Peter is talking to believers. But look at verse 7, and you will see "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient" Hummm.... The faithful are "believers" And the non-believers are "disobedient". Now, that sure sounds like free will to me, with some believing and others not believing. But you call it what you will...

Revelation 17:14 Once again I believe this is in reference to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be found in the Book of Life. In that regard, the saved definitely are "called" and "chosen." But "faithful" seems to once again reflect a sense of free will, doesn't it. Hey, you be the judge on that.

And yes, I stand by all of my entries in this post. I believe tht it you open your mind, read what I have written, and try to understand, you too will wind up thinking that "predestinate" refers only to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but being no respecter of persons, He causes neither.

Matthan

How does a sinner believe?

Matthan

27th March 2007, 07:27 PM

How does a sinner believe?
You ignore all that I wrote - EVERY WORD OF IT! -- and ask still anotehr question. Sorry, but I now doubt your sincerity in this discussion. I will no longer take your bait. So you can ask others your questions, but I will just ignore you.

Matthan

JimfromOhio

27th March 2007, 07:33 PM

You ignore all that I wrote - EVERY WORD OF IT! -- and ask still anotehr question. Sorry, but I now doubt your sincerity in this discussion. I will no longer take your bait. So you can ask others your questions, but I will just ignore you.

Matthan

I read and I was trying to figure out how a sinner become a Christian. I guess by the way you respond, you can't answer and putting me on ignore. That's fine. :wave:

JimfromOhio

27th March 2007, 08:34 PM

I can only try. Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus is talking about the many people who WANT to be Christians.
How? How does God make sinners who are spiritually dead want to become a Christian?

But many of them want to also do things their way, and not God's way. They think they can be real nice to pelple, and ligth candles in memory of the dead, and pray to Mary, and do all sorts of charity work, and kneel before all sorts of idols.
No external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, much more scriptural references). Jesus said you must be born again spiritually.

How a spiritually dead sinner turn to God?

There are others who hear the word, and get all excited, but then lose their excitement and go back to their life of sin. (Oh, just think about the parable of the sower) But God is rather specific in His requirements about how we are to go about believing in Him. The few who do it His way, through the use of their own free will, will find Him, and He will never let them go.

Parable of the Sower

There are 4 Parables of the Sower. Three parables of people who made a profession of faith but then fell away and only the last parable Jesus gave is of real saving faith:

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore.

3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed.

4As he was scattering the seed,

#1
some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. (If a farmer threw the seed and some of it went beyond the furrow only to land on that hard surface, it would never grow. It could not penetrate the ground. This illustrate that people will hear the gospel and think nothing of it).

#2
5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. (The rocky ground in this parable represents the people who will reject the gospel. Also Luke explains that the seed that landed upon the stony soil "lacked moisture" (Luke 8:6). There wasn't any root to capture the moisture. This means people who will initially receive the gospel, but thorns or the sun will cause them to fall away.)

#3
7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. (After the seeds are sown and they begin to germinate, weeds also begin to grow from the fibrous weed roots hidden in the ground. The weeds then choke the life out of the grain.)

#4
8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear." (Some people will initially receive the gospel, and ultimately bring forth fruit.)

The parable shows how people will respond to the gospel. All the soils are basically the same--the only difference is whether the
1. dirt is hard,
2. has rock underneath it,
3. has weeds in it, or
4. is good. The issue is not the soil; rather, it is the condition of the soil. That means that all people could receive the seed.

Keep in mind, soil represents SIN.

Any kind of soil could receive the seed if it was broken up and cleaned of weeds. So, the key to the parable is that the response a person has to the gospel depends upon the condition of that person's heart (sin).

Jesus explains further:
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

How a sinner recieve the gift of faith through GRACE?

You also questioned John 15:16 This entire discourse is between Jesus and His disciples. Of course He specifically chose each of them. We are told in Scripture that He chose each of them. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with His choosing individuals to be saved. Jim, you can't take a verse out of its context and expect to make it fit into another unrelated context.
I would suggest you try reading John Chapter 13, through 15 to get the full and complete meaning of what Jesus was talking about.

John 15:19 Please reread the above paragraph.

I would go down to verses 26-27 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning."

The Holy Spirit calls and chose us.

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 Well, let's look at two verses there.

13. "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here is a classic example of what I wrote in my threads. God certainly knew who would be found in the Book of Life. But, as these two verses clearly prove, the people Paul is writing to had to develop their "belief of the truth", which certainly denotes the use of their free will. After all, they were called by the gospel, right. And we can certainly (and logically) conclude that others heard that same gospel and decided not to believe in Jesus, right? After all, I bet you know some people who have heard about Jesus but have decided not to believe in Him. Couldn't it be the same for paul and his preaching?

People heard but their sins prevented them to be convicted by the Holy Spirit. Its not their choice to reject salvation, it is their choice to keep sins in their lives. Spiritually dead sinners cannot know nor understand salvation unless the Holy Spirit convicts them to repent. Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

1st Peter 2:9 Peter is talking to believers. But look at verse 7, and you will see "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient" Hummm.... The faithful are "believers" And the non-believers are "disobedient". Now, that sure sounds like free will to me, with some believing and others not believing. But you call it what you will...

Yes... writing to believers reminding them that God chose us and why we are suffering in this sinful world. Again, how does a sinful person become a believer?

Revelation 17:14 Once again I believe this is in reference to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be found in the Book of Life. In that regard, the saved definitely are "called" and "chosen." But "faithful" seems to once again reflect a sense of free will, doesn't it. Hey, you be the judge on that.

How does a faithful become a believer?

And yes, I stand by all of my entries in this post. I believe tht it you open your mind, read what I have written, and try to understand, you too will wind up thinking that "predestinate" refers only to God's omniscience in that He knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but being no respecter of persons, He causes neither.

Matthan

You have not answered my question.