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plum
22nd March 2007, 04:01 PM
A regular reader of my blog asks:
What about Acts 10:9-16, Matthew 15:11? Peter’s vision of the ‘unclean’ animals and God telling him to eat them; as well as Christ saying that it isn’t what goes into ones mouth that make a person unclean.

Additionally, Ephesians 2:15 “by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” Jesus gave us a new covenant, the old covenant has been abolished.
Yay for the popular questions, right? I didn't want to just hit him with the "I'm so tired of these verses" response that many Messies (including myself) give out, but I wasn't sure where to start either.

I've been doing some more searching into the topic of eating clean and unclean foods, common foods, profane things, ritual washing, etc...

I found this portion of a book that I'd like to share... it's hard for me to get through (the phrasing is complex and 'old' and isn't always clear) but it was very interesting!

I've underlined what I found particularly interesting/useful.

A Commentary on the New Testament
from the Talmud and Hebraica

John Lightfoot
(1602-1675)

Exercitations upon the Gospel of St. Matthew
Chapters 14, 15, 16
http://philologos.org/__eb-jl/matt14.htm
Chapter 15

2. Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[Why do they transgress the tradition of the elders?] How great a value they set upon their traditions, even above the word of God, appears sufficiently from this very place, verse 6. Out of infinite examples which we meet with in their writings, we will produce one place only; "The words of the scribes are lovely above the words of the law: for the words of the law are weighty and light; but the words of the scribes are all weighty."

"He that shall say, 'There are no phylacteries, transgressing the words of the law,' is not guilty; but he that shall say, 'There are five Totaphoth, adding to the words of the scribes,' he is guilty."
"The words of the elders are weightier than the words of the prophets."

"A prophet and an elder, to what are they likened? To a king sending two of his servants into a province. Of one he writes thus, 'Unless he shew you my seal, believe him not': of the other thus, 'Although he shews you not my seal, yet believe him.' Thus it is written of the prophet, 'He shall shew thee a sign or a miracle'; but of the elders thus, 'According to the law which they shall teach thee,'" &c. But enough of blasphemies.

[For they wash not their hands, &c.] The undervaluing of the washing of hands is said to be among those things for which the Sanhedrim excommunicates: and therefore that R. Eleazar Ben Hazar was excommunicated by it, because he undervalued the washing of hands; and that when he was dead, by the command of the Sanhedrim, a great stone was laid upon his bier. "Whence you may learn (say they) that the Sanhedrim stones the very coffin of every excommunicate person that dies in his excommunication."

It would require a just volume, and not a short commentary, or a running pen, to lay open this mystery of Pharisaism concerning washing of hands, and to discover it in all its niceties: let us gather these few passages out of infinite numbers:

I. The washing of hands and the plunging of them is appointed by the words of the scribes: but by whom, and when, it is doubted. Some ascribe the institution of this rite to Hillel and Shammai, others carry it back to ages before them: "Hillel and Shammai decreed concerning the washing of hands. R. Josi Ben Rabbi Bon, in the name of R. Levi, saith, 'That tradition was given before, but they had forgotten it': these second stand forth, and appoint according to the mind of the former."

II. "Although it was permitted to eat unclean meats, and to drink unclean drinks, yet the ancient religious eat their common food in cleanness, and took care to avoid uncleanness all their days; and they were called Pharisees. And this is a matter of the highest sanctity, and the way of the highest religion; namely, that a man separate himself, and go aside from the vulgar, and that he neither touch them, nor eat nor drink with them: for such separation conduceth to the purity of the body from evil works," &c. Hence that definition of a Pharisee which we have produced before, The Pharisees eat their common food in cleanness: and the Pharisaical ladder of heaven, "Whosoever hath his seat in the land of Israel, and eateth his common food in cleanness, and speaks the holy language, and recites his phylacteries morning and evening, let him be confident that he shall obtain the life of the world to come."

III. Here that distinction is to be observed between forbidden meats, and unclean meats. Of both Maimonides wrote a proper tract. Forbidden meats, such as fat, blood, creatures unlawful to be eaten (Lev 2), were by no means to be eaten: but meats, unclean in themselves, were lawful indeed to be eaten, but contracted some uncleanness elsewhere: it was lawful to eat them, and it was not lawful; or, to speak as the thing indeed is, they might eat them by the law of God, but by the canons of Pharisaism they might not.

IV. The distinction also between unclean, and profane or polluted, is to be observed. Rambam, in his preface to Toharoth, declares it.
Profane or polluted denotes this, that it does not pollute another beside itself. For every thing which uncleanness invades so that it becomes unclean, but renders not another thing unclean, is called profane . And hence it is said of every one that eats unclean meats, or drinks unclean drinks, that his body is polluted: but he pollutes not another. Note that, "The body of the eater is polluted by unclean meats." To which you may add that which follows in the same Maimonides, in the place before alleged: "Separation from the common people, &c., conduces to the purity of the body from evil works; the purity of the body conduceth to the sanctity of the soul from evil affections; the sanctity of the soul conduces unto likeness to God, as it is said, 'And ye shall be sanctified, and ye shall be holy, because I, the Lord that sanctify you, am holy.'" Hence you may more clearly perceive the force of Christ's confutation, which we have verses 17-20.

V. They thought that clean food was polluted by unclean hands, and that the hands were polluted by unclean meats. You would wonder at this tradition: "Unclean meats and unclean drinks do not defile a man if he touch them not, but if he touch them with his hands, then his hands become unclean; if he handle them with both hands, both hands are defiled; if he touch them with one hand only, one hand only is defiled."

VI. This care, therefore, laid upon the Pharisee sect, that meats should be set on free, as much as might be, from all uncleanness: but especially since they could not always be secure of this, that they might be secure that the meats were not rendered unclean by their hands. Hence were the washings of them not only when they knew them to be unclean, but also when they knew it not.

Rambam in the preface to the tract of hands, hath these words; "If the hands are unclean by any uncleanness, which renders them unclean; or if it be hid from a man, and he knows not that he is polluted; yet he is bound to wash his hands in order to eating his common food," &c.

VII. To these most rigid canons they added also bugbears and ghosts to affright them.

It was the business of Shibta. Where the Gloss is, "Shibta was one of the demons who hurt them that wash not their hands before meat." The Aruch writes thus, "Shibta is an evil spirit which sits upon men's hands in the night: and if any touch his food with unwashen hands, that spirit sits upon that food, and there is danger from it."

Let these things suffice as we pass along: it would be infinite to pursue all that is said of this rite and superstition. Of the quantity of water sufficient for this washing; of the washing of the hands, and of the plunging of them; of the first and second water; of the manner of washing; of the time; of the order, when the number of those that sat down to meat exceeded five, or did not exceed; and other such like niceties: read, if you have leisure, and if the toil and nauseousness of it do not offend you, the Talmudic tract of hands, Maimonides upon the tract lavers, and Babylonian Beracoth: and this article, indeed, is inserted through the whole volume entitled cleanness. Let this discourse be ended with this canon; "For a cake, and for the washing of hands, let a man walk as far as four miles."

phew that's long eh? and I still can't decipher this sentence:
Of both Maimonides wrote a proper tract. Forbidden meats, such as fat, blood, creatures unlawful to be eaten (Lev 2), were by no means to be eaten: but meats, unclean in themselves, were lawful indeed to be eaten, but contracted some uncleanness elsewhere: it was lawful to eat them, and it was not lawful; or, to speak as the thing indeed is, they might eat them by the law of God, but by the canons of Pharisaism they might not.
any clues on what exactly is being said here?


Anyway, so my friend is probably going to be told in simple terms that Matthew 15 is about ritual washing, not unkosher/unclean foods. He's not exactly the type to care if I lay it out in big long paragraphs (like we do so much here lol).


did anything strike you in this commentary? was it unbelievably boring? this thread is going to die or get off-topic, isn't it :sorry:

ContentInHim
22nd March 2007, 06:51 PM
I don't think it's boring, but it's going to take a bit of study and sentence diagramming to get the subject and verbs aligned! :D


Of both Maimonides wrote a proper tract. Forbidden meats, such as fat, blood, creatures unlawful to be eaten (Lev 2), were by no means to be eaten: but meats, unclean in themselves, were lawful indeed to be eaten, but contracted some uncleanness elsewhere: it was lawful to eat them, and it was not lawful; or, to speak as the thing indeed is, they might eat them by the law of God, but by the canons of Pharisaism they might not.


I'm thinking that this might be like Samson's honey - clean in and of itself, but from a dead lion's jaw which made a clean food unclean. But then he says it's only unclean because the Pharisees said it's unclean? Is that right?

plum
22nd March 2007, 06:56 PM
well at first that's what i thought... but the wording seems off for it...

but meats, unclean in themselves, were lawful indeed to be eaten, but contracted some uncleanness elsewhere
that would be the honey... unclean because of something elsewhere right? but the "unclean in themselves" part is throwing me off.
:it was lawful to eat them, and it was not lawful;
bah! my brain is mush trying to apply normal grammar and punctuation rules to this paragraph :D

gilfv
24th March 2007, 12:55 PM
lol well, you are right it was a bit long lol, skimmed over it (but ty for bringing it here to CF).

Are you saying hun that nothing initself is unclean, if so again i say that i am very much interested in what you have to say on other things as well.

Thank you and have a great day

:)

Wags
24th March 2007, 01:39 PM
I've tried reading that excerpt a few times now and it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think the point that the author is trying to show is that the oral Torah - traditions - were held in greater regard then the written Torah. Some of the quotes seem to be taken out of context.

The rabbinical command was to wash the hands in order to prevent the chance that your ritually unclean hands would make your nomally kosher food ritually unclean - and therefore uneatable. Apparently some sects didn't hold to this strict standard, or said it only applied if you knew your hands were unclean and failed to wash.

At least that is what the debate was with Yeshua. His disciples failed to do the ritual washing before eating. (note - scripture does not say Yeshua was accused of doing this, so we can surmise that he did wash). Yeshua was basically overturning the rabbinical ruling that ritually unclean hands could render otherwise kosher food unclean.

Charles YTK
24th March 2007, 04:51 PM
At least that is what the debate was with Yeshua. His disciples failed to do the ritual washing before eating. (note - scripture does not say Yeshua was accused of doing this, so we can surmise that he did wash). .


Wags,

While I do agree with most of your post, I would make one suggestion that is different. When the disciples are accused, the Master is also being accused in a second handed way, because the Master teaches by example as well as in words, and the disciples only do what they see the master doing. Their entire mission in life at that point is to memorize every nuance of the master, memorize his teachings word for word, live as he lives, eat what he eats, act as he acts. They become little copies of the master. That is the process of Discipleship. So in this accusation it is a backhanded way of accusing Yeshua of teaching the disciples an incorrect doctrine. It would be wrong to summize that he DID was his hands. It is more likely that he simply was not eating at the time, but like his disciple who copy him, would not have washed his hands if he had been.

Charles YTK
24th March 2007, 05:06 PM
Eirene,

I find much of this article clip to be difficult to read and understand. Perhpas if one had read the entire chapter before it would make sense, however as it stands it is self contradictory.

For myself, I see great value in observing the Biblical laws of Kosher diet. Eat what God calls food, and do not eat that which is unclean or an abomination. All the rabbinical ordinances to determine when something is clean or unclean, ritual purity issues, how long after eating meat one can eat dairy and such is troublesome, a burden and unnecessary for us. Again I speak for myself and this is what I recommend to others. We can each do whatever we feel right about. It is God's Spirit who teaches each one of us, and either convicts us or approves of us. I feel no conviction when I eat Biblically Kosher and feel no conviction for breaking Rabbinical ordiances. For another this might be different.

And it might be noted that I am not a Hebrew, and come instead from fine American Pagan stock of indiginess people.;)

gilfv
24th March 2007, 08:44 PM
Thank you Wags, i appreciate the summary.

Blessings

gilfv

plum
24th March 2007, 09:13 PM
Wags,

While I do agree with most of your post, I would make one suggestion that is different. When the disciples are accused, the Master is also being accused in a second handed way, because the Master teaches by example as well as in words, and the disciples only do what they see the master doing. Their entire mission in life at that point is to memorize every nuance of the master, memorize his teachings word for word, live as he lives, eat what he eats, act as he acts. They become little copies of the master. That is the process of Discipleship. So in this accusation it is a backhanded way of accusing Yeshua of teaching the disciples an incorrect doctrine. It would be wrong to summize that he DID was his hands. It is more likely that he simply was not eating at the time, but like his disciple who copy him, would not have washed his hands if he had been.
yeah i think Charles makes a good point here.

I think this commentary is making the point that at the time (1st century) ritual hand washing was a very important tradition at the time and that worrying over whether food (meaning clean animals) had been contaminated by the environment was a high priority.

I found the part about evil spirits interesting:
VII. To these most rigid canons they added also bugbears and ghosts to affright them.

It was the business of Shibta. Where the Gloss is, "Shibta was one of the demons who hurt them that wash not their hands before meat." The Aruch writes thus, "Shibta is an evil spirit which sits upon men's hands in the night: and if any touch his food with unwashen hands, that spirit sits upon that food, and there is danger from it."
I'd like to know more about the belief in demons and evil spirits at the time, but I couldn't find much else to read.

And to be frank, this reminds me of christian groups that teach us not to listen to certain styles of music because they can bring evil spirits into you. And I just roll my eyes at that to be honest.

Wags
25th March 2007, 12:43 AM
From my reading it looks like the "evil spirts" were a later edition to what all ready was in place.

plum
25th March 2007, 01:38 AM
From my reading it looks like the "evil spirts" were a later edition to what all ready was in place.
what do you mean?

gilfv
25th March 2007, 08:21 PM
I've tried reading that excerpt a few times now and it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think the point that the author is trying to show is that the oral Torah - traditions - were held in greater regard then the written Torah. Some of the quotes seem to be taken out of context.

The rabbinical command was to wash the hands in order to prevent the chance that your ritually unclean hands would make your nomally kosher food ritually unclean - and therefore uneatable. Apparently some sects didn't hold to this strict standard, or said it only applied if you knew your hands were unclean and failed to wash.

At least that is what the debate was with Yeshua. His disciples failed to do the ritual washing before eating. (note - scripture does not say Yeshua was accused of doing this, so we can surmise that he did wash). Yeshua was basically overturning the rabbinical ruling that ritually unclean hands could render otherwise kosher food unclean.


Hi Wags,

I have a question.

Let's say Jesus didn't wash his hands what would that mean?

Thank you

mpossoff
26th March 2007, 04:30 PM
I have a question.

Let's say Jesus didn't wash his hands what would that mean?

Thank you

What does written Torah say in referance to washing hands?

For He was saying that they For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

Marc

Wags
26th March 2007, 07:32 PM
Eirene - Talmud is a compelation of writings that span a great deal of time. The earlier writings are mostly free of mention of "evil spirits and bugaboos". When those are mentioned they are usually later editions that were added as the author says to keep the common people in line.

gilfy - Yeshua kept some of the traditions of the fathers, and in other cases he said they were in violation of torah. If Yeshua didn't preform the ritual handwashing it would just mean that wasn't a tradtiion that was in line with Torah. Notice that in his reply to the torah teachers he didn't say don't wash hands, just that washing them or not washing didn't change the status of the food.