Debate on the Necessity of Baptism for the Remission of Sins

[aggie03]

It is a privilege and an honor for both gqaggie04 and myself to be able to take part in this debate with Knight and Drotar. We hope that everyone who takes part in and reads these posts will benefit from and learn the will of God more perfectly through study of His word. We stand ready to affirm with the word of God that the statement “baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation”. We will begin with a few definitions, the points we are going to cover, and a brief introductory argument.

To baptize – βαπτίζω, baptizo, primarily a frequentative form of bapto, “to dip”, used to signify the dyeing of a garment, or drawing water by dipping a vessel into another.

Baptism – βάπτισμα, baptisma, consisting of the process of immersion, or submersion, and emergence. This baptism must be done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). This is done for – or unto, in order to, or with a view to – the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) for those who are penitent believers.

salvation – (for purposes of this discussion) the point at which your sins are removed.

Point 1:

Major Premise- salvation by the grace of God is conditional
Minor Premise – Baptism is a condition of receiving God’s grace
Conclusion – Baptism is required for our salvation

Point 2:

Baptism is for the remission of sins

Point 3:

Baptism is how we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ, through the working of God

Point 4:

Baptism is the point at which we are born again and become children of God

Point 5:

Baptism is the contact point where man receives God’s grace.

As one reads throughout the Scriptures to learn about the salvation that God has offered to man, there are conditions that must be met. Let’s look at a very popular verse that illustrates this point:

John 3:16 KJV

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In this instance salvation is conditioned upon belief in Christ. This is something that must be done by an individual before they might receive salvation.

Act 3:19 KJV

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

In this verse repentance must precede salvation, and therefore is a condition of salvation. Does this mean that belief is no longer necessary? No, but rather repentance and belief have both been laid out, by God as conditions to receiving salvation through the grace of God.

Does the existence of these conditions lessen, or nullify, the fact that salvation is through God’s grace? No, of course not.

Luke 17:7-10 KJV

But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? (8) And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? (9) Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. (10) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

When we do the things that God has told us to do, this is nothing to boast about; there is nothing laudable, or commendable – but rather we are unprofitable servants who rest solely upon the grace of our Lord and Master.

Having thus provided proof for the major premise, now it must be shown through Scriptures that baptism is a condition of our salvation.

Mark 16:16 KJV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

By removing the dependent clause, the first part of this verse can be broken down to its simplest form of “He shall be saved.” But which ‘he’? There are conditions that are included within that clause, connected together with the conjunction and – belief and baptism. Does this verse say that he who believeth only shall be saved? No. Does this verse say that he who is baptized only shall be saved? No, but rather, he who believeth and is baptized shall be saved. These are words that Christ Himself actually spoke, and it would certainly seem, according to Him, that both belief and baptism are necessary conditions placed upon our salvation.

Based upon this proof for the minor premise, we are lead to our conclusion that baptism is a necessary condition placed upon our salvation.

Mat 7:21-23 KJV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again, another very straightforward verse: if we don’t do the things that God has told us to then we are workers of iniquity. If we don’t meet the conditions that God has placed upon salvation, then we shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is proof that all of the conditions that God has laid out for our salvation must be met, and because baptism has been shown to be one of those conditions, it must also be met.

(5,650 characters including Scriptures references)

[Knight]

It is a privilege and an honor for both gqaggie04 and myself to be able to take part in this debate with Knight and Drotar. We hope that everyone who takes part in and reads these posts will benefit from and learn the will of God more perfectly through study of His word.

We concur with the above statements.

We stand ready to affirm with the word of God that the statement “baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation”.

And we stand ready to affirm the opposite. :)

We will begin with a few definitions, the points we are going to cover, and a brief introductory argument.

To baptize – βαπτίζω, baptizo, primarily a frequentative form of bapto, “to dip”, used to signify the dyeing of a garment, or drawing water by dipping a vessel into another.

Baptism – βάπτισμα, baptisma, consisting of the process of immersion, or submersion, and emergence. This baptism must be done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). This is done for – or unto, in order to, or with a view to – the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) for those who are penitent believers.

salvation – (for purposes of this discussion) the point at which your sins are removed.

We concur with the above definitions with the exception of the statement regarding baptism for the remission of sins.

Point 1:

Major Premise- salvation by the grace of God is conditional
Minor Premise – Baptism is a condition of receiving God’s grace
Conclusion – Baptism is required for our salvation

Salvation by the grace of God is not conditional. This violates the basic definition of grace. It also violates scripture to suggest that grace has a condition whereby we earn it.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Scripture teaches us that Grace is through faith and not works.

Point 2:

Baptism is for the remission of sins

Again, this violates the passage in Ephesians.

Point 3:

Baptism is how we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ, through the working of God

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. We die to our old life of sin and are reborn into a new life in Christ.

Point 4:

Baptism is the point at which we are born again and become children of God

If salvation is through faith then the point at which we are born again is the point we placed saving faith in Christ.

Point 5:

Baptism is the contact point where man receives God’s grace.

Again, the "contact point" for God's grace is through faith in Christ.

As one reads throughout the Scriptures to learn about the salvation that God has offered to man, there are conditions that must be met. Let’s look at a very popular verse that illustrates this point:

John 3:16 KJV

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In this instance salvation is conditioned upon belief in Christ. This is something that must be done by an individual before they might receive salvation.

The argument is that grace is conditional upon belief. One must understand that belief (faith) is a response to God's grace. This gets into the subject of election which is not part of this debate.

Act 3:19 KJV

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

In this verse repentance must precede salvation, and therefore is a condition of salvation. Does this mean that belief is no longer necessary? No, but rather repentance and belief have both been laid out, by God as conditions to receiving salvation through the grace of God.

Does the existence of these conditions lessen, or nullify, the fact that salvation is through God’s grace? No, of course not.

Again, the idea of belief being a requirement to be saved is not in dispute. The origins of that belief are matter for a different debate.


Luke 17:7-10 KJV

But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? (8) And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? (9) Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. (10) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

When we do the things that God has told us to do, this is nothing to boast about; there is nothing laudable, or commendable – but rather we are unprofitable servants who rest solely upon the grace of our Lord and Master.

Having thus provided proof for the major premise, now it must be shown through Scriptures that baptism is a condition of our salvation.

No argument here. Christians are called to obey God's commands.


Mark 16:16 KJV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

By removing the dependent clause, the first part of this verse can be broken down to its simplest form of “He shall be saved.” But which ‘he’? There are conditions that are included within that clause, connected together with the conjunction and – belief and baptism. Does this verse say that he who believeth only shall be saved? No. Does this verse say that he who is baptized only shall be saved? No, but rather, he who believeth and is baptized shall be saved. These are words that Christ Himself actually spoke, and it would certainly seem, according to Him, that both belief and baptism are necessary conditions placed upon our salvation.

Based upon this proof for the minor premise, we are lead to our conclusion that baptism is a necessary condition placed upon our salvation.

The text does not establish baptism as a requirement. It says that he who believes and is baptised is saved. One could also make the calim that he who believes and reads his Bible is saved. Both are true but it is not the Bible reading or the baptism that saves it is the belief. The second part of the text is key. "but he that believeth not shall be condemned." It does not say that he who is not baptised shall be condemned. Belief is the key, not baptism.


Mat 7:21-23 KJV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again, another very straightforward verse: if we don’t do the things that God has told us to then we are workers of iniquity. If we don’t meet the conditions that God has placed upon salvation, then we shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is proof that all of the conditions that God has laid out for our salvation must be met, and because baptism has been shown to be one of those conditions, it must also be met.

In this passage Christ is referring to those who profess with their mouths but do not believe in their hearts. This is relevant to the believer but irrelevant to the issue of baptism. When we are regenerated in Christ our focus shifts from the will of the flesh to the will of God. A Christian will seek to do the will of the Lord.

We do not deny that baptism is a command from God. We deny that that command is a requirement of our salvation.

[gqaggie04]

Salvation by the grace of God is not conditional. This violates the basic definition of grace. It also violates scripture to suggest that grace has a condition whereby we earn it.

Webster’s on grace:
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

Nowhere, in this definition are conditions precluded. To demonstrate this, let’s look at an example using this definition from a human to human standpoint.

The majority of individuals reading this post have at some time received a Christmas gift. Almost none of us would claim that we have earned the sweaters that Grandma knits us. It is an unmerited grandmotherly assistance given her grandchild , or a virtue coming from Grandma , or a state of warmth enjoyed through Grandmotherly grace . However, even though we have done nothing to earn the sweater that Grandma has freely given to us, there are at least two conditions necessary for us to benefit from it. Since Grandma is naturally going to wrap our sweater, we must first remove the wrapping paper. A sweater can’t keep you very warm if it is still in the wrapper. Secondly, we must accept the gift and take it with us. If we decide we don’t like our sweater, then we could always refuse to accept the gift and leave it at Grandma’s house.

Has meeting these necessary conditions in any way earned us Grandma’s gift? Of course not! But you show me the Christmas gift that was left unopened or left behind, and I’ll show you the Christmas gift that was not benefited from.

Show me a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Scripture teaches us that Grace is through faith and not works.

This scripture does indeed teach that grace is through faith and not works. However, are we talking about any kind of works? No, verse 9 clarifies the type of works, “so that no one can boast.” Boastful works do not save us.

If I could somehow build a tower that reached into Heaven, climb up it, and land at the throne of God, then I could tell Him that I made it here without His help. I could boast that I worked my way into Heaven. But such a work is impossible so, boastful works are excluded.

Are there any other types of works?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Here are works of righteousness. This is Peter as he is talking to Cornelius and his household, prior to their conversion. So these works aren’t referring to those who are already saved. These works must be different than the ones we could boast of. Eph. 2: 8-9 does not deal with these works.



Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. We die to our old life of sin and are reborn into a new life in Christ.

Show me a scripture that says baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. We agree with the second statement.



The argument is that grace is conditional upon belief. One must understand that belief (faith) is a response to God's grace. This gets into the subject of election which is not part of this debate.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This passage makes two interesting points. First, calling upon the name of the Lord is shown as another condition in addition to belief. Secondly, it shows what faith is a response to. It is a response to God’s grace in that God through grace revealed His will through the word. More directly, it is a response to hearing the word of God. We hear the word of God through the mouth of a preacher or by reading a Bible. Therefore, belief is a response to God’s revealing grace but a condition to his saving grace.


The text does not establish baptism as a requirement. It says that he who believes and is baptised is saved. One could also make the calim that he who believes and reads his Bible is saved. Both are true but it is not the Bible reading or the baptism that saves it is the belief. The second part of the text is key. "but he that believeth not shall be condemned." It does not say that he who is not baptised shall be condemned. Belief is the key, not baptism.

You are reading way too much into this verse. It says very plainly that the individual who both believes and is baptized would be saved. You argue that any Christian duty could replace baptism. Support that statement with evidence, and tell why Christ chose baptism instead of the other duties.

It was not necessary for Christ to say he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be condemned. He understood that baptism must be done only by the penitent believer. If steps one and two in that order produce salvation, and step one is omitted, then it is unnecessary to mention that step two was also omitted.



In this passage Christ is referring to those who profess with their mouths but do not believe in their hearts . This is relevant to the believer but irrelevant to the issue of baptism. When we are regenerated in Christ our focus shifts from the will of the flesh to the will of God. A Christian will seek to do the will of the Lord. {emphasis gqaggie04}

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ did not say “but he that believeth in their heart.” He said “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The issue was not that these people were not believing, but that they were working lawlessness (iniquity=lawlessness.)



Now we will present our Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.

Let’s look at the first example of conversion recorded in the Bible: Acts 2. Acts 2 takes place on the day of Pentecost when a large group of Jews had gathered at Jerusalem to celebrate this feast. We read in the beginning of the chapter that the apostles experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which enabled them to speak in the different languages of all the people there. They then got up and addressed these Jews. The theme of their message is that they were guilty of crucifying Jesus and that He had been made Lord and Christ.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This message deeply moves some of the listeners, and they respond by asking what they need to do. They know that they are guilty of murdering Christ. They now believe that He is Lord and Christ. They know that they are in big trouble and in need of help from God. They want help from God. These people BELIEVE!!! Does Peter tell them, well since you obviously believe what we’ve told you, there is nothing else you need to do. No!

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Does Peter tell them to believe? No, they already believe what he’s telling them. That’s obvious from their question. He tells them to repent and be baptized. Well, why do they need to do that? “For the remission of sins.”

Thus we have Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins simply means the canceling out of sins. This can be equated with the removal of sins, which is the definition of salvation agreed upon for this discussion.

Therefore, we stand resolved: “Baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation.”

All scripture quotes KJV.

Original material < 5,600 characters

[Drotar]

May I respectfully disagree? First, Webster's definition of grace is not infallible. Be that as it may, I'm willing to run with it.

The "unmerited" aspect is the part that precludes conditions of merit. I can't get any more blunt than that. The concept of it is what's our primary area of emphasis. If something is obtained AS A DIRECT RESULT OF our actions, then it is earned. If it is something given to us when it is undeserved, or better yet, "unmerited", then it is by definition grace. The premises of Ephesians 2:8-9 CANNOT GET any clearer. The issue is authority- is the Bible REALLY the Word of God. Do you REALLY think that it is God's inerrant revelation to man? There is no room for interpreting that in another way. I've seen people try. The real issue is authority- whether or not you'll accept what it says.

A person who hopes to obtain a mansion in the holy kingdom of GOD by his own "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) expects VERY high wages, for VERY, VERY, VERY crummy work. If works earns us heaven, we're all out. I'm that realistic enough with myself and my sinfulness to admit it.

I am aware of your illustration, but for the sake of not wasting characters on pointing out hypothetical inconsistencies, I'll not address it.
Show me a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions.You're a funny man. You are kidding I hope, because I would LOVE to post verses that outline what grace is. A walkthrough verses in Romans is in order. I'll see if I can fit that in.
This scripture does indeed teach that grace is through faith and not works. However, are we talking about any kind of works? No, verse 9 clarifies the type of works, “so that no one can boast.” Boastful works do not save us.We are saved by grace through faith SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST, not saved by grace through faith with works unless you boast. Man, the hermeneutics used here are not even worth spending characters addressing. I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to NOT see salvation as a thing of grace after reading the Scriptures.If I could somehow build a tower that reached into Heaven, climb up it, and land at the throne of God, then I could tell Him that I made it here without His help. I could boast that I worked my way into Heaven. But such a work is impossible so, boastful works are excluded. I recommend you reread your post in its entirety again. First, how is building a tower a boastful work, but doing good works to earn heaven not so? If you were to EARN heaven by how you acted (which is so against the Scripture's teachings it is incomprehensible), then you could boast that you got there because you were a good enough person. Plain and simple. If you're a sinner that deserves to go to hell, but God saved you because He loved you and died on the cross for you, thereby CAUSING you to do good works out of love not obligation, then there is NO room for boasting. Only boasting of our own weakness. If we intend to dwell with GOD by acting good, then if and when we get there, we can brag about it. We could base the very simple fact that we're there on our own righteousness.



Again, I do recognize that you have more writing. But I want to use my characters in the most careful manner possible.

Baptism is, as Knight keenly observed in the Scriptures, an outward manifestation of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. (As Matt Slick once wrote).

QUESTION: Baptism saves no? Then, pray tell, HOW WERE OT SAINTS SAVED? No reference of baptism in the entire Old Testament. No command of it given to Adam or his descendants. No teaching of it. If baptism saves, 1) why was that command not given in the Old Testament and 2) do you believe that people who were born in the Old Testament Israel were saved in a different way than we are? Let me rephrase that- do you believe that Jews are saved differently from Gentiles? If not, and you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, then you have to admit that no OT Israelites were saved. I've heard people say that the OT authors simply forgot to put it in, but 1) It would have been among the Law and commandments (which GOD HIMSELF gave through literal speech) and 2) this objection then denies Biblical infallibility. Meaning that our problem, as I've stated before, is not in interpretation or hermeneutics. Do you know what it is? It's authority. Whether or not we're going to listen to God when He speaks.

I am interested in hearing your view of Old Testament salvation. If baptism is necessary for salvation then does that mean that no OT people were saved, OR does it mean that God, for some reason, CHANGED His requirement for salvation just for kicks. Either way you answer, you dive head-first into heresy. And this is what I'd like to spend some time on pointing out.


You are reading way too much into this verse. It says very plainly that the individual who both believes and is baptized would be saved. You argue that any Christian duty could replace baptism. Support that statement with evidence, and tell why Christ chose baptism instead of the other duties.


gqaggie, this makes no sense. DO YOU BELIEVE that a person who believes and is baptized is saved? What about falling away? What about good works? DO YOU YOURSELF take that verse literally? Then using it literally to pin us with a verse that you don't believe completely yourself lacks integrity. NEITHER of us hold to that verse literally. You must thereby deny that works play any role in salvation. If you DO believe that they do, then please, for the sake of apologetic integrity, do not throw an interpretation at us that you yourself believe is false.


Christ did not say “but he that believeth in their heart.” He said “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The issue was not that these people were not believing, but that they were working lawlessness (iniquity=lawlessness.)

Depart from Me, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Bottom line.


Now we will present our Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Does Peter tell them to believe? No, they already believe what he’s telling them. That’s obvious from their question. He tells them to repent and be baptized. Well, why do they need to do that? “For the remission of sins.”

People that use this verse for water baptism do not know their Bible. I've noticed this. All throughout John, who is Jesus talking about sending? The Comforter, the Holy Spirit. In Acts 1, He COMMANDS THEM not to evangelize until the Holy Spirit comes. Acts 2, He came. They spake in tongues and they had fiery tongues appear above their heads. Acts 2 is when the Holy Spirit, as promised, FINALLY came. WITHOUT QUESTION, Acts 2 is ALL ABOUT the Holy Spirit.

For some reason now, people bring in water baptism out of NOWHERE. I tell them that the context is baptism of the Holy Spirit, and blantantly ignorant, they say that it's about water baptism and the context has nothing to do with the HS. If this is a question about Acts 2... there is no question. There is baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Acts 2 more than anywhere else we would expect to see a reference. Water baptism is not only your personal interpretation, it's out of context and completely random and incoherent to the text. Acts 2 is one of the most important texts in the NT.


Note: I am BEGGING that someone PLEASE change the character limit. For the fear of running out of characters, I ignored parts of the post I responded to. This is not the way a debate should work. Please let me go back and complete my post so that no part of this goes ignored because of some stipulation. I didn't even have enough room to respond to the entirety of the post before me. Especially in a theological debate, NO PART of the discussion should have to go ignored. Sure I might take up some more room, but I think that should be inherent in a formal debate, unless what is desired is a cursoy examination of the Scriptures.

This is the test waters for formal debates. This debate is testing whether that formula is practical. I like the set-up, but I cannot function like this. Please allow me and I'll finish addressing the post above, and I'll post Scripture, the final means of appeal on the issue. I didn't even get to talk about the atonement of Christ, or monergistic salvation. Please let me finish and close with Scriptures. TTYL Jesus lvoes you!

[aggie03]

Unfortunately, this post will not put forth any new arguments. Because of the manner in which Drotar responded through either a misunderstanding or a disregard for the debate rules, we have elected to solely deal with the material he presented. He brought up new material, and failed to appropriately address the majority of the arguments put forth by the affirmative. This is in no way a personal attack on Drotar, but we feel that through his previous post, should someone have been undecided on the matter, he could have unfairly swayed their understanding. The negative should still have plenty of arguments to address in their next post, since many have been previously ignored. The negative cannot however, respond to any statements made by the affirmative regarding new material posted by Drotar, such as the statements regarding OT matters.

May I respectfully disagree?

Admittedly, I was disappointed when you did not respectfully disagree. :sigh:

First, Webster's definition of grace is not infallible. Be that as it may, I'm willing to run with it.

The "unmerited" aspect is the part that precludes conditions of merit. I can't get any more blunt than that.

Agreed.

The concept of it is what's our primary area of emphasis. If something is obtained AS A DIRECT RESULT OF our actions, then it is earned. If it is something given to us when it is undeserved, or better yet, "unmerited", then it is by definition grace.

Let’s imagine that I am standing next to Knight or Drotar and hold out a $20 bill. I tell him, “Here, take this $20 bill from me as a gift.” He says thank you, and grabs it from my hand. Did his taking the $20 bill from my hand cause him to earn it? Of course not. But he did obtain it “as a direct result of” his action. Christ was the one who paid for our salvation. Christ is the one who has "earned" it for us. It is His gift to us, we just have to take it :).

The premises of Ephesians 2:8-9 CANNOT GET any clearer.

You are exactly right...boastful works are not necessary! I knew you'd come around ;).

The issue is authority- is the Bible REALLY the Word of God. Do you REALLY think that it is God's inerrant revelation to man?

Gqaggie04 and I both believe that Bible is the word of God, inerrant, unbreakable and fully complete. I don't know why you've even mentioned this... :confused:

There is no room for interpreting that in another way. I've seen people try. The real issue is authority- whether or not you'll accept what it says.

The real issue here is not authority, but how we harmonize things. I like to compare what each passage means within its context and compared to the rest of the Bible. By reading through the rest of this particular letter (Ephesians), and all of the others in the New Testament, it becomes painfully obvious that not all "works" are excluded by Ephesians 2, just the boastful ones. Luke 17:7-10; John 12:42,43; mark 16:16; Mattew 28:19; Luke 13:3; Luke 13:5; 1 Peter 3:21 are some passages that Epehsians 2:8,9 must be harmonized with.

Luke 17:7-10 KJV

7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

A person who hopes to obtain a mansion in the holy kingdom of GOD by his own "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) expects VERY high wages, for VERY, VERY, VERY crummy work. If works earns us heaven, we're all out. I'm that realistic enough with myself and my sinfulness to admit it.

You're reading into things that we've said that just simply aren't there, and you're making many incorrect assumptions about what we're presenting.

I am aware of your illustration, but for the sake of not wasting characters on pointing out hypothetical inconsistencies, I'll not address it.

The argument stands because you failed to address it. I really did hesitate to call this a dodge, but that's what it seems to be.

You're a funny man. You are kidding I hope, because I would LOVE to post verses that outline what grace is. A walkthrough verses in Romans is in order. I'll see if I can fit that in.

No verses were ever offered which stated that grace precludes conditions, argument stands.

We are saved by grace through faith SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST, not saved by grace through faith with works unless you boast. Man, the hermeneutics used here are not even worth spending characters addressing.

There's a lot you've left unaddressed, and this is not the point that gqaggie04 was making. Let’s reference the hypothetical situation gqaggie04 has given us one more time. The point being made is that it is impossible to boast about certain types of works. No one would boast that by unwrapping the gift that they somehow earned the sweater. In the same way, since GOD commanded baptism, it is impossible to boast that we earned salvation through baptism. If man can’t boast about baptism, then it is not covered by Ephesians 2:8,9.

I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to NOT see salvation as a thing of grace after reading the Scriptures.

No where have we said that it wasn't. It is certainly a thing of grace.

I recommend you reread your post in its entirety again. First, how is building a tower a boastful work, but doing good works to earn heaven not so?

We never said you earn heaven - in fact, just the opposite. Getting to heaven by ourselves would be something to boast about. Getting there the way God has prescribed leaves no room for boasting.

If you were to EARN heaven by how you acted (which is so against the Scripture's teachings it is incomprehensible), then you could boast that you got there because you were a good enough person.

This is never mentioned anywhere in gqaggie04's post, and frankly I have no idea where you're getting it from. We have NEVER stated that you earn heaven.

Plain and simple. If you're a sinner that deserves to go to hell, but God saved you because He loved you and died on the cross for you, thereby CAUSING you to do good works out of love not obligation, then there is NO room for boasting.

Read Luke 17 very carefully. There is no boasting because we are only doing what we are commanded.

Baptism is, as Knight keenly observed in the Scriptures, an outward manifestation of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul.

Show where the Scriptures state explicitly and specifically that baptism is nothing more than an outward sign. No one has yet been able to do this.

Then, pray tell, HOW WERE OT SAINTS SAVED?

Faith and obedience to the commandments of God.

No reference of baptism in the entire Old Testament. No command of it given to Adam or his descendants. No teaching of it.

No command of circumcision in the New Testament. No command to observe the sabbath. No command to keep the passover... the list is endless.

If baptism saves, 1) why was that command not given in the Old Testament

The Old Testament is a completely different covenant than the New Testament. Different priesthood, different high priest, different laws (we are under law of Christ, Galatians 6:2), different commands.

Hebrews 7:11-17 KJV

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 8:13 KJV

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



2) do you believe that people who were born in the Old Testament Israel were saved in a different way than we are?

Faith and obedience to the word of God.

Let me rephrase that- do you believe that Jews are saved differently from Gentiles?

This is a different question altogether. Jews and Gentiles are saved the same now. Gentiles were not part of the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant.

If not, and you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, then you have to admit that no OT Israelites were saved.

Different covenants, different commands...

I am interested in hearing your view of Old Testament salvation. If baptism is necessary for salvation then does that mean that no OT people were saved, OR does it mean that God, for some reason, CHANGED His requirement for salvation just for kicks. Either way you answer, you dive head-first into heresy. And this is what I'd like to spend some time on pointing out.

I do believe the Bible teaches this, and I'll point it out again: different covenants, different commands.

gqaggie, this makes no sense. DO YOU BELIEVE that a person who believes and is baptized is saved? What about falling away? What about good works? DO YOU YOURSELF take that verse literally?

Yes, he does take it literally. The key point is in the word "believes". If at any time you stop believing, you're part of the group that "believeth not". I think that it’s also necessary to reference one of the definitions established at the beginning of this debate:

salvation – (for purposes of this discussion) the point at which your sins are removed.

This is our working definition of salvation in this debate, and we believe it is also the definition used in Mark 16:16. Therefore, the verse is dealing with forgiveness of all sins committed to that point in time. Present salvation from sins, and final salvation in Heaven are not synonymous.

Then using it literally to pin us with a verse that you don't believe completely yourself lacks integrity. NEITHER of us hold to that verse literally.

Rest assured, gqaggie04's integrity is intact :), and he does believe that verse literally.

People that use this verse for water baptism do not know their Bible. I've noticed this. All throughout John, who is Jesus talking about sending? The Comforter, the Holy Spirit. In Acts 1, He COMMANDS THEM not to evangelize until the Holy Spirit comes. Acts 2, He came. They spake in tongues and they had fiery tongues appear above their heads. Acts 2 is when the Holy Spirit, as promised, FINALLY came. WITHOUT QUESTION, Acts 2 is ALL ABOUT the Holy Spirit.

Nope. Why were all of the converts in Acts baptized with water? If what you are saying is true then we would all have to be baptized just like they were in Acts 2. There would be a mighty sound and miracles. This doesn't happen today, and this interpretation doesn't harmonize with the rest of scripture. Baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurs in two places in the New Testament: Acts 2 & 10. Both times included immediate miracles. This is obviously not happening today.

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[Knight]

Show me a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions.

There is one condition for salvation and that is faith. This will be demonstrated in the second half of this debate as to not violate the rules.


This scripture does indeed teach that grace is through faith and not works. However, are we talking about any kind of works? No, verse 9 clarifies the type of works, “so that no one can boast.” Boastful works do not save us.

If I could somehow build a tower that reached into Heaven, climb up it, and land at the throne of God, then I could tell Him that I made it here without His help. I could boast that I worked my way into Heaven. But such a work is impossible so, boastful works are excluded.

Are there any other types of works?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Here are works of righteousness. This is Peter as he is talking to Cornelius and his household, prior to their conversion. So these works aren’t referring to those who are already saved. These works must be different than the ones we could boast of. Eph. 2: 8-9 does not deal with these works.

We can boast of any good work. This is human pride in action. The context of Ephesians 2 does not support a distinction between boastful and non-boastful works.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This passage is talking about God's saving grace. Paul is focusing on God's work in our salvation rather than the things we do.


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This passage makes two interesting points. First, calling upon the name of the Lord is shown as another condition in addition to belief. Secondly, it shows what faith is a response to. It is a response to God’s grace in that God through grace revealed His will through the word. More directly, it is a response to hearing the word of God. We hear the word of God through the mouth of a preacher or by reading a Bible. Therefore, belief is a response to God’s revealing grace but a condition to his saving grace.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is a response to faith. Again, we do not contend that faith is not a condition of salvation.


You are reading way too much into this verse. It says very plainly that the individual who both believes and is baptized would be saved. You argue that any Christian duty could replace baptism. Support that statement with evidence, and tell why Christ chose baptism instead of the other duties.

It was not necessary for Christ to say he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be condemned. He understood that baptism must be done only by the penitent believer. If steps one and two in that order produce salvation, and step one is omitted, then it is unnecessary to mention that step two was also omitted.

There are other verses which support faith for salvation but do not mention baptism.

Acts 3:19
19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:36-37
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]

The eunuch already believed.

Acts 10:43
43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 16:30-31
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

This is only an example and will be discussed in full at the second half of this debate.


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ did not say “but he that believeth in their heart.” He said “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The issue was not that these people were not believing, but that they were working lawlessness (iniquity=lawlessness.)

Those who profess Christ with their mouths but do not believe it in their hearts are not saved because they have no true faith.


Now we will present our Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.

Let’s look at the first example of conversion recorded in the Bible: Acts 2. Acts 2 takes place on the day of Pentecost when a large group of Jews had gathered at Jerusalem to celebrate this feast. We read in the beginning of the chapter that the apostles experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which enabled them to speak in the different languages of all the people there. They then got up and addressed these Jews. The theme of their message is that they were guilty of crucifying Jesus and that He had been made Lord and Christ.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This message deeply moves some of the listeners, and they respond by asking what they need to do. They know that they are guilty of murdering Christ. They now believe that He is Lord and Christ. They know that they are in big trouble and in need of help from God. They want help from God. These people BELIEVE!!! Does Peter tell them, well since you obviously believe what we’ve told you, there is nothing else you need to do. No!

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Does Peter tell them to believe? No, they already believe what he’s telling them. That’s obvious from their question. He tells them to repent and be baptized. Well, why do they need to do that? “For the remission of sins.”

Thus we have Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins simply means the canceling out of sins. This can be equated with the removal of sins, which is the definition of salvation agreed upon for this discussion.

Therefore, we stand resolved: “Baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation.”

All scripture quotes KJV.

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Is it the water in baptism that washes away sins or is it the blood of Christ? These people had already recieved the Holy Spirit and were thus already saved. The first command for a new Christian is to be baptised.

Peter's statement was in response to the general question, "What shall we do?" Peter was obeying the Great Commission. It is arguable that Peter was linking baptism and the remision of sins. If a preacher was to say, "Repent and come to the front of the church so that you may have eternal life." he may or may not believe that coming forward is a necessary condition. However, if he had clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief was sufficient then no one would think otherwise.

There are many other examples in Scripture that teach forgiveness of sins is connected to faith/repentance alone. These will be discussed in their entirety in the second half of this debate.

[gqaggie04]

There is one condition for salvation and that is faith.This will be demonstrated in the second half of this debate as to not violate the rules.

Since I made the request that you show a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions, you would not be in violation of the rules to offer both a scripture and explanation. Our example involving the $20 bill clearly shows that grace can include conditions. Would you say that Knight or Drotar earned the $20 bill? Did he have to take it out of the hand to receive it?

Let’s imagine that I am standing next to Knight or Drotar and hold out a $20 bill.I tell him, “Here, take this $20 bill from me as a gift.”He says thank you, and grabs it from my hand.Did his taking the $20 bill from my hand cause him to earn it? Of course not.But he did obtain it “as a direct result of” his action.Christ was the one who paid for our salvation.Christ is the one who has "earned" it for us. It is His gift to us, we just have to take it.

We can boast of any good work.This is human pride in action.The context of Ephesians 2 does not support a distinction between boastful and non-boastful works.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This passage is talking about God's saving grace. Paul is focusing on God's work in our salvation rather than the things we do.

I agree that Eph 2 is focusing on God’s work in our salvation. However, it also makes the point that we do not earn salvation through works. If we could somehow invent a work that earned us our salvation, we could boast of that work. We could boast that we saved ourselves apart from God. On the contrary, how can you boast of a work that is commanded by God? Once again, we are not teaching that baptism earns salvation.

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

We most certainly cannot boast about any good work, as this passage clearly teaches.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This passage makes two interesting points. First, calling upon the name of the Lord is shown as another condition in addition to belief. Secondly, it shows what faith is a response to. It is a response to God’s grace in that God through grace revealed His will through the word. More directly, it is a response to hearing the word of God. We hear the word of God through the mouth of a preacher or by reading a Bible. Therefore, belief is a response to God’s revealing grace but a condition to his saving grace.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is a response to faith. Again, we do not contend that faith is not a condition of salvation.

I agree that calling upon the name of the Lord is a response to faith. However, this passage also states that it is an additional condition to salvation. As a side note, I also believe that repentance and baptism are responses to faith and conditions to salvation. Faith is the foundation point for all other aspects of both salvation and living the Christian life.

You are reading way too much into this verse.It says very plainly that the individual who both believes and is baptized would be saved.You argue that any Christian duty could replace baptism. Support that statement with evidence, and tell why Christ chose baptism instead of the other duties.

No evidence was offered to show that any Christian duty could replace baptism, which was an argument made previously by Knight.

There are other verses which support faith for salvation but do not mention baptism.

Acts 3:19
19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:36-37
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]

The eunuch already believed.

Acts 10:43
43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 16:30-31
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

This is only an example and will be discussed in full at the second half of this debate.

Are you equating the “repent” in Acts 3:19 with faith because faith is not mentioned in that verse?

I agree that the Eunuch already believed. Both aggie03 and myself teach that only believers should be baptized for the remission of sins, which the Eunuch was.

Both Acts 10:43 and Acts 16:30-31 teach belief for salvation, with which I agree. However, in James 2, belief does not save the devils. The question that must be answered then, is, “What is included in a saving belief?” Obviously, you believe at least repentance is included, and according to Mk. 16:16, so is baptism.

Your logic is that passages which include faith but not baptism, necessarily exclude baptism. Following this logic, then passages that leave out faith must necessarily exclude faith.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Notice that faith and belief are not mentioned in any of these verses.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ did not say “but he that believeth in their heart.” He said “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The issue was not that these people were not believing, but that they were working lawlessness (iniquity=lawlessness.)

Those who profess Christ with their mouths but do not believe it in their hearts are not saved because they have no true faith.

Please explain to me where you are getting that these people don’t believe in their heart. The reason that these people are made to depart from Christ is explicitly stated: because they work lawlessness. Nowhere does it say that they didn’t believe.

Is it the water in baptism that washes away sins or is it the blood of Christ? These people had already recieved the Holy Spirit and were thus already saved. The first command for a new Christian is to be baptised.

Peter's statement was in response to the general question, "What shall we do?" Peter was obeying the Great Commission. It is arguable that Peter was linking baptism and the remision of sins. If a preacher was to say, "Repent and come to the front of the church so that you may have eternal life." he may or may not believe that coming forward is a necessary condition. However, if he had clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief was sufficient then no one would think otherwise.

There are many other examples in Scripture that teach forgiveness of sins is connected to faith/repentance alone. These will be discussed in their entirety in the second half of this debate.

Please give me your reasoning for equating faith, repentance, and belief. Strong’s defines “faith” as a moral conviction, especially a reliance on Christ. He defines “repent” to think differently; reconsider. The two words are not synonymous.

You are making the argument that since Peter elsewhere teaches that “repentance/belief” is sufficient for salvation, he must not mean that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins.

Let’s look at verses 37 & 38 along with the next few verses.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Once again, we can show from the people’s response that they already believe that they are guilty of crucifying their saviour. However, when they asked what they needed to do, Peter responded, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” You argue that the baptism is just the first command for the new Christian. What does Peter tell the people in verse 40???

“Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”

According to your reasoning, these people had already been saved. Why then was Peter still telling them to save themselves?

How did the people respond to the command to save themselves?

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

We will now introduce Point 3: Baptism is how we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ, through the working of God.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This verse can be broken down into the simple sentence: Baptism doth save us. The parenthetical statement tells how it saves us, and the two prepositional phrases explain by what means it saves us. Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Well, what does baptism have to do with the resurrection of Christ?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul ends Rom 5 by explaining how we are saved by grace through Christ. He then anticipates a potential question from his audience. Some might argue that we should continue to sin so that we can more fully receive God’s grace. Paul begins to argue against such thinking.

Paul states that we are dead to sin and equates this with crucifying our sinful man with Christ. According to Paul, the means by which we crucify our old man is through baptism.

Interestingly enough, Paul also specifies baptism as the means by which we are raised from the dead like Christ.

In other words, through baptism we crucify the old man of sin and are raised up to live a new life free from sin. To be free from sin is to be forgiven of sin, or to have sin removed, which is the definition of salvation being used for this debate.

Let’s look at another verse teaching the same principle.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Once again, this verse shows that baptism is both a burial and resurrection with Christ. Notice that this burial and resurrection through baptism is founded upon faith. Faith is the foundation for salvation, but not the entire structure. Also notice that we are buried and resurrected through baptism by the operation of God. This is the very reason that we cannot boast about being baptized and why we maintain that being baptized for the remission of sins is not earning the remission of sins.

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[Drotar]

Since I made the request that you show a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions, you would not be in violation of the rules to offer both a scripture and explanation. Our example involving the $20 bill clearly shows that grace can include conditions. Would you say that Knight or Drotar earned the $20 bill? Did he have to take it out of the hand to receive it?


Ok.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” -Romans 3:21-24



This is just one. But, see here, WE DO have a condition for being saved. What is that? Falling. Our role in salvation is getting to the point from which we need to be saved. We contribue nothing to salvation other than getting lost.

Really though, the illustration of holding out my hand to accept the money isn't quite accurate. Or taking off the wrapping to a present. If you think about it, those prerequisites are necessary because they are physical and take up time and space. Spiritually, God bestows His grace. Of course in order to receive something physically, you must say "yes" or hold out your hand.

But since we are fallen by nature, we CANNOT say yes or choose to hold out our hand unless God Himself FIRST breaks through that barrier. We are spiritually unable to accept Jesus and repent of our sins... for how can we accept Him who our sinful heart hates and repent of that which we love? Unless God the Holy Spirit first moves, we cannot repent or believe. Now, is that saying "Yes" still necessary? Of course. It's faith that saves. But that faith is dependent on grace. That faith is given to us by grace. You see, it's God Himself that gets us to unwrap that gift. To hold out our hand. But it's grace since it's all God. I mean ALL God.


I agree that Eph 2 is focusing on God’s work in our salvation. However, it also makes the point that we do not earn salvation through works. If we could somehow invent a work that earned us our salvation, we could boast of that work. We could boast that we saved ourselves apart from God. On the contrary, how can you boast of a work that is commanded by God? Once again, we are not teaching that baptism earns salvation.


We most certainly cannot boast about any good work, as this passage clearly teaches.


How can we boast about a work that is commanded by God? How is it possible to not see know that? If your father commands you to build a bridge, and you do it, you can brag about it to everyone you know. Just because you were told to do something, doesn't preclude that you can be arrogant about having accomplished something.

Now baptism, that's not as much a work in our eyes. I personally see what you're saying in who on earth could brag about that?

But the issue is that if you place any action as necessary for salvation, you place the efficacy of the Father's predestination, Christ's atonement, and the Holy Spirit's regenerative calling on YOURSELF. To say that the Father predestined in vain unless you make something of it, that Christ died in vain unless YOU do something to make it effectual, to say that the Holy Spirit is powerless to set out what He wishes to accomplish unless you cooperate. The reason why we put the baptism and the works plans of salvation is only because they're both synergistic. Both require the efficacy of man's cooperation for God to have any power in accomplishment. Rather than what we know of the BIble: if God DOESN'T FIRST act in our terrible selves, we CANNOT cooperate. It's against our selfish, sinful nature and will. God must first regenerate us. THEN, and only then can we choose to follow. See John 6:37-44.


I agree that calling upon the name of the Lord is a response to faith. However, this passage also states that it is an additional condition to salvation. As a side note, I also believe that repentance and baptism are responses to faith and conditions to salvation. Faith is the foundation point for all other aspects of both salvation and living the Christian life.

Faith results only by God's good graces. Now, if a Christian refused to get baptized after being saved, I'd be suspicious. There's something wrong with that. But does that save, or does Christ's atonement? I'll get into that later, because right now I'm aware of the rules and will write only a short rebuttal.


No evidence was offered to show that any Christian duty could replace baptism, which was an argument made previously by Knight.

I don't know if baptism can be replaced by anything, but it is in the same camp as good works. Since both are actions that we take responsibility for, both can and must be traced to ourselves. Meaning that it is teaching synergism, the belief that we must cooperate for salvation. In reality, we believe that we are the ones we need to be saved from!


Are you equating the “repent” in Acts 3:19 with faith because faith is not mentioned in that verse?

I agree that the Eunuch already believed. Both aggie03 and myself teach that only believers should be baptized for the remission of sins, which the Eunuch was.

Faith is mentioned in that verse. Faith is believing in Jesus to be the Son of God. He did. That belief WAS faith. Indeed, Acts 10:44-46 says the same issue. Faith before baptism. Faith saves. God grants faith. Therefore, God ultimately saves.


Both Acts 10:43 and Acts 16:30-31 teach belief for salvation, with which I agree. However, in James 2, belief does not save the devils. The question that must be answered then, is, “What is included in a saving belief?” Obviously, you believe at least repentance is included, and according to Mk. 16:16, so is baptism.

James 2 is not on the context of our actual salvation. Our salvation between us and God is secure. That's what He said. Therefore, it WILL happen. If He said He who believes in Me has everlasting life, that's it man.

Read James 2:18. "You SHOW ME your faith without works, and I'll SHOW YOU my faith BY my works." It's about those who CLAIM to be Christian. The ONLY way for you to know if ANYONE is saved is to see the fruit they bear. If good works is the fruit, then you can be confident they're saved. If not, then you may doubt that they ever had faith, ie they're saved. It's not about whether or not God keeps His promise to save us if we had faith, it's about showing (to quote) our faith by our good works. Not to make the efficacy of Christ's atonement and God's work secure. To make sure that others know by showing.


Your logic is that passages which include faith but not baptism, necessarily exclude baptism. Following this logic, then passages that leave out faith must necessarily exclude faith.[/QUOTE]


Baptism of what? Check the rest of the verse. A good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The context in Acts 2 is the Holy Spirit. That there is not even debatable.

Salvation is a symbol of our sins being washed away. A manifestation to others of that act.


Notice that faith and belief are not mentioned in any of these verses.

Please, y'all need to stop with the emphasis on faith and belief. We're Calvinists. I flinch every time I hear such strong emphasis on faith and belief. Wanna know an inside secret? We think faith is a work too.

It's God that leads all of the actions- faith, baptism, and works. They're all very much alike to us. We DO have distinctions between them all. For example, faith saves. Baptism is a symbol of our salvation. Works is a manifestation of our salvation.

But ultimately, it is grace. Grace. God's grace. Don't take that as meaning that we embrace antinomianism. Works play a crucial part in our Christian lives, as does baptism. But ultimately, we credit God for His choosing.


Please explain to me where you are getting that these people don’t believe in their heart. The reason that these people are made to depart from Christ is explicitly stated: because they work lawlessness. Nowhere does it say that they didn’t believe.

Let me answer for Knight. We believe that they had faith AND were baptized. However, we distinguish between the two in that one of them actually saved, one was a symbol to others that they were saved.


Please give me your reasoning for equating faith, repentance, and belief. Strong’s defines “faith” as a moral conviction, especially a reliance on Christ. He defines “repent” to think differently; reconsider. The two words are not synonymous.

They're different, but both happen simultaneously. Both are led by God.

[gqaggie04]You are making the argument that since Peter elsewhere teaches that “repentance/belief” is sufficient for salvation, he must not mean that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins.

Yes. That is correct.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, how is it that Jesus never commanded the disciples to be baptized, but only TO baptize?

Let’s look at verses 37 & 38 along with the next few verses.

Once again, we can show from the people’s response that they already believe that they are guilty of crucifying their saviour. However, when they asked what they needed to do, Peter responded, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” You argue that the baptism is just the first command for the new Christian. What does Peter tell the people in verse 40???

According to your reasoning, these people had already been saved. Why then was Peter still telling them to save themselves?

He said more than "save yourselves" He also said, "from this untoward generation." That means to be set apart.

Don't you see? It's the PERFECT salvation message! Repent (be baptized of the Holy Ghost), and you shall be saved.

Then, do not return to your former lifestyles, but preserve yourself from wickedness. Acts 2 is WITHOUT QUESTION the context of the Holy Spirit. Start at verse 1, and move on. Actually, start at chapter 1 verse 1.


How did the people respond to the command to save themselves?

We will now introduce Point 3: Baptism is how we are connected to the death and resurrection of Christ, through the working of God.

Yep. If they DIDN'T respond by being baptized, something would have been wrong.


This verse can be broken down into the simple sentence: Baptism doth save us. The parenthetical statement tells how it saves us, and the two prepositional phrases explain by what means it saves us. Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's the problem. It can't be broken down to four words, because if God wanted it written that way, it would have been. To take those four words destroys the context.


Well, what does baptism have to do with the resurrection of Christ?

Paul ends Rom 5 by explaining how we are saved by grace through Christ. He then anticipates a potential question from his audience. Some might argue that we should continue to sin so that we can more fully receive God’s grace. Paul begins to argue against such thinking.

Paul states that we are dead to sin and equates this with crucifying our sinful man with Christ. According to Paul, the means by which we crucify our old man is through baptism.

Interestingly enough, Paul also specifies baptism as the means by which we are raised from the dead like Christ.

If that were true in the sense you mean for it to be, then only Christians will be resurrected.

Let me clear this up: Back then, baptism was not confused with salvation. It was equated with it, but they KNEW that the only thing that saved was Jesus. To not have been baptized back then, they would have seen you as a liar. They speak of baptism as if it were actually salvation itself, because that was all you could see of what might have happened. It is a perfect symbol. Much like animal sacrifices were in the Old Testament. They didn't save, but was a symbol of who did. Also, much like the Lord's Supper. Do these symbols and actions of ours contain within themselves salvation? Or does the fountain of blood drawn from Immanuel's veins?


In other words, through baptism we crucify the old man of sin and are raised up to live a new life free from sin. To be free from sin is to be forgiven of sin, or to have sin removed, which is the definition of salvation being used for this debate.

Let’s look at another verse teaching the same principle.

Once again, this verse shows that baptism is both a burial and resurrection with Christ. Notice that this burial and resurrection through baptism is founded upon faith. Faith is the foundation for salvation, but not the entire structure. Also notice that we are buried and resurrected through baptism by the operation of God. This is the very reason that we cannot boast about being baptized and why we maintain that being baptized for the remission of sins is not earning the remission of sins.

I apologize that I have not quoted Scripture yet.

I said I was in my last post, but then I read the rules and realized that I couldn't post my arguments yet. When that time comes, I'll have well over 30-40 contexts. Seventy two exactly if I can get to all five points. Please be patient. The time is coming. They all are support for monergism. Right now though, I must pace myself.

Again, we know that y'all believe that those baptized have faith. It's just that you're saved, and are promised salvation as Jesus said at the moment you believe. Actually, you WERE promised technically before you were born. Another debate for another time. Perhaps later.

Performing a deed, ANY deed, that is requisite for salvation, means that you can ultimately credit your salvation to how you acted and responded. Whether or not it was commanded is a separate issue. The fact that you ultimately and how you act determines the efficacy of God's actions and promises means that you have room to boast that your activities were ultimately determinative of you being in heaven. When you get there, and you remember you were baptized, you would have room to boast that now you are welcomed in, because of how you acted in a situation. Not in how God saved, but in how you acted to efficate God's actions. TTYL Jesus lvoes you!

PS, my character limit was too long so, since your verses were already posted, I have my Bible here for reference if they're needed. Sorry about that, don't get the wrong message.

[gqaggie04]

I accidentally posted aggie03's response, so I had to edit the post with this message. Our reply is below. Hopefully, a moderator will remove this post for us.

Sorry. :o

[aggie03]

This is just one. But, see here, WE DO have a condition for being saved. What is that? Falling. Our role in salvation is getting to the point from which we need to be saved. We contribue nothing to salvation other than getting lost.

In this statement you have just admitted that there are conditions to being saved. There are either conditions or there aren’t. You have just stated one. This means that every time we read through the Scriptures and find a place where it mentions something that must be done to be saved, it is also a condition. Therefore:

Mark 16:16a ASV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

By your own concession we have just established baptism as a condition for our salvation.

But since we are fallen by nature, we CANNOT say yes or choose to hold out our hand unless God Himself FIRST breaks through that barrier.

We are not fallen by nature, but rather fallen by choice. I will repeat the verse that you quoted earlier:

Romans 3:23ASV

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

The only reason that this fall has occurred is because one has sinned, not because they were born. We must keep in mind who this was written to: Gentile and Jewish Christians. These Christians were men and women, not infants and babies. One is not born a Christian, one is converted:

Acts 3:19 KJV

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Paul was explaining to these Christians that is no difference whether you are a Jew or a Greek, you are saved only by the grace of God. You are saved only when you are converted, when you are added to the number of Christ. How is this accomplished?

Acts 2:41 KJV

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added about three thousand souls.

It is only when we have met all of the conditions for salvation that we are saved, one of which is baptism.

for how can we accept Him who our sinful heart hates and repent of that which we love? Unless God the Holy Spirit first moves, we cannot repent or believe.

God has moved first:

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

God has given us His word so that we might hear it and believe. The gospel is the power unto salvation (Romans 1:16)

Now, is that saying "Yes" still necessary? Of course. It's faith that saves.

You have previously stated that there were no conditions, then one, and now we’re up to two. If there are all these conditions, there is no way that salvation can be monergistic. We have to meet these conditions.

But that faith is dependent on grace. That faith is given to us by grace. You see, it's God Himself that gets us to unwrap that gift. To hold out our hand. But it's grace since it's all God. I mean ALL God.

The word of God is given to us by grace; our faith is based upon the word and the grace in which it was given to us. Our faith is not given to us, but something that we must do.

John 6:28-29 ASV

They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Jews ask Jesus what THEY must do. Christ didn’t reply, you don’t do anything; I will take care of it all. Christ told them the work of God, or from God, that they must do is to believe in Christ. Faith is a work. Faith is something we must do. It is a condition of our salvation.

How can we boast about a work that is commanded by God? How is it possible to not see know that? If your father commands you to build a bridge, and you do it, you can brag about it to everyone you know. Just because you were told to do something, doesn't preclude that you can be arrogant about having accomplished something.

You are using man’s logic against God’s logic here. We can boast in nothing that we are commanded to do:

Luke 17:10 ASV

Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

There is no boasting in being obedient according to God. We are merely unprofitable servants doing what has been laid as conditions of our salvation.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, how is it that Jesus never commanded the disciples to be baptized, but only TO baptize?

Mark 16:16a ASV

He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved

He did command them to be, if they expected that they were to be saved :).

He said more than "save yourselves" He also said, "from this untoward generation." That means to be set apart. Don't you see? It's the PERFECT salvation message! Repent (be baptized of the Holy Ghost), and you shall be saved. Then, do not return to your former lifestyles, but preserve yourself from wickedness. Acts 2 is WITHOUT QUESTION the context of the Holy Spirit. Start at verse 1, and move on. Actually, start at chapter 1 verse 1.

The Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. When Peter is speaking to the crowd he is commanding them to be baptized with water for the remission of their sins. If what you have said is true, then all would need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. This means that every time someone was “baptized” there would have to be a mighty sound as of the rushing wind and miracles that follow immediately. This has to be referring to water baptism, or no one alive today has remission of sins.

That's the problem. It can't be broken down to four words, because if God wanted it written that way, it would have been. To take those four words destroys the context.

How does breaking a complex sentence down into simple parts so it can be analyzed destroy the context? English teachers have their students diagram sentences to gain a better understanding of those sentences. That is a process used to discover the true meaning of a passage, and one that you and I both use everyday when we read. If what you have said is the case, everything we read is taken out of context.

James 2 is not on the context of our actual salvation.

James 2 is very much in the context of our salvation:

James 2:24 ASV

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

We are not justified by our faith alone – faith alone is not enough to save us. This means there are other conditions. One of these is baptism.

If that were true in the sense you mean for it to be, then only Christians will be resurrected.

Romans 6:3-4 ASV

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

I believe that you’ve misunderstood the point being made. Only those who are baptized are saved, hence baptism being a condition, and only those who are baptized are born again. Newness of life is nothing less than a rebirth.

Performing a deed, ANY deed, that is requisite for salvation, means that you can ultimately credit your salvation to how you acted and responded.

You have stated in your previous post that you believe in at least two conditions, one of which is faith. We have shown faith to be a work. Do you boast of your faith? Do you credit your salvation to yourself because you have faith? I doubt it, because it is not your faith that saves you. The same is true with baptism. There is nothing inherent in the water that saves you. You are not saved because you have been baptized, but because upon meeting all of the conditions for salvation, God applies His grace to you.

Having therefore sustained our argumentation from the previous post, we will continue on with the next point: baptism is the point at which we are born again and become children of God.

Major Premise: Birth results in a newness of life
Minor Premise: We are raised to a newness of life through baptism
Conclusion: Baptism is the point at which we are born again as a child of God

[u]Major Premise

When a child is born there is a new life, and a newness of life.

Minor Premise

Romans 6:3,4 ASV

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

We are baptized into the death of Christ, and just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so are we raised through His glory and His working that we might walk in newness of life.

This is only true, according to Paul, for those who have been baptized into Christ Jesus, meaning that this is not true for anyone who has not been baptized into Christ Jesus.

John 1:12-13 ASV

But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In order to become a child of God you have to be born of God. Because a birth is a newness of life, then we must have a newness of life of, or from, God. Paul tells us in Romans 6:4 we receive a newness of lie of from God when we are baptized.

Believe in John 1:12 does not mean the mere mental assension that Christ is Lord:

John 3:36 ASV

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Believing and obeying are inseparable.

John 3:5 ASV

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

What elements are involved in being born from God? Water and the Spirit. In Romans 6 we find both of these. We are baptized into Christ’s death through the water and God raises us to a newness of life, a rebirth. Only then can we enter the kingdom of God. Remember, Paul said all of this is true only for those who were baptized into Christ.

Conclusion

If newness of life is a birth, and we receive a newness of life from God when we are baptized, baptism is how we are born of God as His children.

[Knight]

In this statement you have just admitted that there are conditions to being saved. There are either conditions or there aren’t. You have just stated one. This means that every time we read through the Scriptures and find a place where it mentions something that must be done to be saved, it is also a condition. Therefore:

Mark 16:16a ASV

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

By your own concession we have just established baptism as a condition for our salvation.

There is no disputing that faith is required for salvation. If there was no faith then salvation would be irrelevant. Faith can be called a condition but it does not originate with us.

Romans 9:16
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

John 6:28-29
28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

You see that faith is a work of God.

We are not fallen by nature, but rather fallen by choice. I will repeat the verse that you quoted earlier:

Romans 3:23ASV

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

The only reason that this fall has occurred is because one has sinned, not because they were born. We must keep in mind who this was written to: Gentile and Jewish Christians. These Christians were men and women, not infants and babies. One is not born a Christian, one is converted:

We are fallen by deed and nature. Your argument would seem to indicate that it is possible, however unlikely, that someone could choose not to sin in their life. I do not believe that this is what you mean but it does not take a leap of logic to conclude this.

Mark 7:21-23
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


Acts 3:19 KJV

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2:41 KJV

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added about three thousand souls.

It is only when we have met all of the conditions for salvation that we are saved, one of which is baptism.

It was Peter who was speaking. I'm sure this was just a typo.

Peter says to repent and be converted. Why? "that your sins may be blotted out"

They recieved the word and were baptised. They had already recieved the Word (ie: they were already saved) before they were baptised.


The word of God is given to us by grace; our faith is based upon the word and the grace in which it was given to us. Our faith is not given to us, but something that we must do.

John 6:28-29 ASV

They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


The work of God is that we believe. This verse says this very clear.


Luke 17:10 ASV

Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

There is no boasting in being obedient according to God. We are merely unprofitable servants doing what has been laid as conditions of our salvation.

It is definately possible for man to boast about being obedient to God. Just because we are not supposed to boast about obeying God's commands does not mean that we can't. Human pride rears it's ugly head here.

Do not misunderstand. I am not saying that it is ok to boast about being obedient. It is simply within our sinful capacity to do so.


The Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. When Peter is speaking to the crowd he is commanding them to be baptized with water for the remission of their sins. If what you have said is true, then all would need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. This means that every time someone was “baptized” there would have to be a mighty sound as of the rushing wind and miracles that follow immediately. This has to be referring to water baptism, or no one alive today has remission of sins.

Those signs accompanied that one conversion experience at pentecost. It was fulfilment of what Christ had told them prior to his ascension. The issues around the passage in Acts 2:38 have already been discussed at length.


We are not justified by our faith alone – faith alone is not enough to save us. This means there are other conditions. One of these is baptism.

Context of the James 2 passage is everything:

James 2:14-26
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Please note that James begins by using the example of someone who SAYS they have faith.

Simply put, James is explaining that if you say you have faith you had better demonstrate it through your life. However, if you say you have faith but do not show it through you life then that faith is dead. Dead faith cannot save you. True faith brings a changed life.


You are not saved because you have been baptized, but because upon meeting all of the conditions for salvation, God applies His grace to you.

You are baptised because you have been saved. We will delve into this more in the second half of this debate.


Major Premise: Birth results in a newness of life
Minor Premise: We are raised to a newness of life through baptism
Conclusion: Baptism is the point at which we are born again as a child of God

[u]Major Premise

When a child is born there is a new life, and a newness of life.

Minor Premise

Romans 6:3,4 ASV

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

We are baptized into the death of Christ, and just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so are we raised through His glory and His working that we might walk in newness of life.

This is only true, according to Paul, for those who have been baptized into Christ Jesus, meaning that this is not true for anyone who has not been baptized into Christ Jesus.

We know from the rest of scripture that salvation is by faith not by faith and something we do.

Romans 3:28-30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Also, we know from other scripture that baptism follows faith.

Acts 16:30-33
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

If baptism were a condition of salvation then Paul would have said so.




John 3:5 ASV

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

What elements are involved in being born from God? Water and the Spirit. In Romans 6 we find both of these. We are baptized into Christ’s death through the water and God raises us to a newness of life, a rebirth. Only then can we enter the kingdom of God. Remember, Paul said all of this is true only for those who were baptized into Christ.

Again, look at the context of John 3. Jesus is explaining the conversion experience by using the analogy of birth. We are born once and then we are born again in Christ.

John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

There are a number of ways this verse can be interpreted.

1) Given the context the water here could easily be refering to the water of the womb. The first birth is a natural birth the second is spiritual.

2) The water could refer to the Word of God. Eph. 5:26 says, "that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word."

3) The water could refer to the Holy Spirit. Ezek. 36:25-27 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
Jesus' own words are also applicable here. John 7:37-39, "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."


This is just an example of how this verse can be interpreted differently.
God's Word is not inconsistent. There is example after example is scripture that shows justification by faith. Many of these have already been posted and I see no need to repeat all of them.

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Justified by faith. Not faith and baptism.

[Drotar]

I thought about how to close this.

I've decided that it would be unjust for us to get two responses in a row, the second of which is the conclusion. I empathize with the affirmative team.

So, I think I'll close this debate with a friendly TTYL Jesus loves you! to be fair.

[PetraFan007]

edit: sorry, empty post

[PetraFan007]

Why don't we all just get baptised? I mean is it so hard? I personally don't believe in needing to be baptised to be saved, etc, but I mean, just do it just in case, ya never know. It's easy. Have your Christian brother or sister dip you in the tub real quick and say, "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." etc. It's easy. Don't make such a big deal.

[Crispie]

Baptism does not save, but it is merely a Sacrament for those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour.



Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Here we can see that they believed, recieved the Holy Spirit (meaning they were saved) then Peter commanded that they be Baptized in the name of Christ.


Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead"
In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed. Neither circumsion nor baptism saved anyone, but was a right (Circumsion for the Jews and Baptism for the Christians)

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

I have almost become Cross eyed reading the support verses of " water baptism" which almost always contradict the perceived meaning given by water faithful.

Some empirical truths: Unforgivable sins." denying the Holy spirit". Gee Is Jesus a liar: and Water baptism is what must be done for salvation?..ehhh not.

Water faithful Give supporting Scriptures: which in bewilderment I read and discern. They gave as foundation of water baptism replacement of circumcision. And Colossians 2;11. Ouch. this is the definitive verse in KJV which makes folly the water baptist concept of sin removal. Lets quote.

col 2;10-11. 10" And ye are complete in him.( Jesus) which is the head of all principality and power."
11. "In whom (Jesus) also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ." wow...that means the circumcision of Christ, which puts off sins; is " made without hands". water baptism, is sprinkle sprinkle, dunk dunk. oops thats made with hands. cant be that.

Baptist point to this verse of why water baptism replaces circumcision, and now removes sin. They are right about removing sin. and circumcision of old being replaced with new form of circumcision: but the Key words are.

" Made without hands"...Old time circumcision is made of hands, but new circumcision of christ is made without hands. Only one thing is without hands, that is spiritual things. Thats a fact. and Old circumcision and water baptism, are both made by hands. snip snip: sprinkle sprinkle, dunk dunk. Water baptism is " made by hands, Not as spirit baptism is of spirit.

Now this verse is definitive: and lest water followers have a definitive verse. I dont want to argue about it.

Also " we battle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in spiritual places".. who battles? we battle . where do we battle ? in Power places and principalities in spiritual places in our hearts and minds!


Fact of water baptism. its " made by hands" sprinkle sprinkle, dunk dunk..And Gods baptism. is not of " made by hands"...Made by hands means. A earthly or fleshly action. God is spirit, man must worship God in spirit. And man is saved by spirit, or condemned by lack of spirit.

Now to say man cannot be saved lest of water baptism; is a form of heresy. since its not written. that Only denying the holy spirit, is whats unforgivable sin. And adding water as unforgivable, is adding too the word, and heresy.

I am sorry that this is harsh. but its also true. No where is it written " water baptism is a sin if not done" I believe its a sign of faith, to do water baptism. but its not even a sin, if ommited according to " water baptism" verses.

On the Cross. Jesus guaranteed the thief: that today you shall be in heaven:. He never was water baptised.
again water doctrine contradicts Jesus and disciples.

No where is pro water followers; doctrine based in scriptures that is definitive, and yet col 2;11 is definitively contradicting their claims: for those who, discern not poorly that is.

I pray my words do not offend, yet I know they will:
I am passionate on the word and God: and fear that water based faith in salvation is doctrine causing faithful to be in peril.

So again I ask that I be forgiven for my passion: and also I shall forgive water followers for their passion: but Gods words are the Judge and sword of truth of our faith; And removal of mans sins comes not by " made by hands" that omits all things but " spiritual things"

I pray my words do not distress or offend any. God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave: