What if the Tabernacle was set up?

[Charles YTK]

If the Tabernacle was set up say on Mount Olives, would you see this as a good thing? Would you be excited at the prospect? Would you gladly take part in it?

You see many seem to be anxious for a new temple to be built. However there is no need for a stone Temple. And it does not have to be on the temple mount. This is only a Jewish preference. The Lord designated that the Levites were to perform their function in the "Place that he was going to show them", which is really Israel and perhaps Jerusalem. Nothing ties this specifically to the temple mount. In fact for the first 300 years the tent of meeting and the service was in Bethel.

For several years now Gershom solomon and the temple mount faithful organization has been sacrificing a Pesach lamb on the mount of Olives overlooking the Old Temple mount. Most of us have heard that the Tabernacle is already built with all the furnishings and vessels, and the Levites are trained. The only thing preventing the start of a sacrificial service is the will of the people.

How do you view this, would the initiation of the Sacrificial service and continuing the Levical services be a good thing or would it be a bad thing, from a spiritual point of view? I am not speaking of the political ramifications and such and protests by Islamist and animal rights people, just the merits of the continuation of the Sacrificial service and returning Judaism and perhpas Christianity from Templess forms back to the original Temple form of the bible.

[mpossoff]

For one it's prophesized that the Temple will return.

Currently there is an 'abomination' sitting on where His Name is forever.

Marc

[Charles YTK]

For one it's prophesized that the Temple will return.

Currently there is an 'abomination' sitting on where His Name is forever.

Marc
Where his name is forever isn't the temple mount though is it? As I said the Lord seemed OK with the Tabernacle operating in Bethel for over 300 years.

[visionary]

When its til will come, peoples minds will be seriously considering the ramification, taking sides, and all eyes will be upon Jerusalem and the issue. The seven year covenant will be made for peace but at what a cost. Three and 1/2 years into the witnessing of this abomination finalizes the minds of the people of God, and either people are looking to Jerusalem for salvation or looking for for their redeemer's return.

[Charles YTK]

OK but here is the big question; Would this setting up of the sacrificial service harden the Jews rejection of Messiah Yeshua? Probably not since they have been rejeting him anyway since 30 CE.

And for believers who are always looking hopefully for the temple to be set up, wouldn't their taking part in the sacrifices take away from the witness of the completion of the sacrifices by Yeshua, sort of like saying to Messiah, "thanks for the offer, but I will place my hope on the goat of atonement." Or might it say to the Jews, that there are two separate paths to God, either through the Levitical sacrifice or through Messiah.

Would it be prudent for Believers in Yshua to take part in the sacrifices?

[AbiYah]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/scenes/tumblingtumbleweed.gif

..I think we cross this bridge when we get to it, not prior to finding or seeing the bridge.. :)

[mpossoff]

OK but here is the big question; Would this setting up of the sacrificial service harden the Jews rejection of Messiah Yeshua? Probably not since they have been rejeting him anyway since 30 CE.

And for believers who are always looking hopefully for the temple to be set up, wouldn't their taking part in the sacrifices take away from the witness of the completion of the sacrifices by Yeshua, sort of like saying to Messiah, "thanks for the offer, but I will place my hope on the goat of atonement." Or might it say to the Jews, that there are two separate paths to God, either through the Levitical sacrifice or through Messiah.

Would it be prudent for Believers in Yshua to take part in the sacrifices?

Charles do you understand the difference between sin offerings and other offerings? And the purpose of the Tabernacle?

For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to G-d.
Hebrews 9:13-14

The above doesn't say it doesn't sanctify it says it does sanctify for the purifying of the flesh.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Hebrews 10:4

True because the blood of bulls and goats doesn't take away sins, it never did. "How much more shall the blood of Messiah...".

If you asked a Jew by doing this "Are you saved by doing this?" They would have said "No" because it had nothing to do with it. "I don't want to die while I'm here". The 'sin-dirtiness' of man needed to be covered. As it says in Hebrews 9:13-14 it does sanctify. It doesn't say it doesn't sanctify.

Go to Exodus 19:6. Some say now that I have Yeshua I could've touched that mountain. That's not true. Our G-d is a consuming fire and still is.

On another note if the offerings didn't mean anything then why did believers still do them when the Temple was present?

Again one must understand what these mean.

And by no means offering are not to denegrate Messiah the Ultimate sacrifice.

Charles do you know the purpose of the offerings?

Marc

[mpossoff]

Where his name is forever isn't the temple mount though is it? As I said the Lord seemed OK with the Tabernacle operating in Bethel for over 300 years.

Where is the Temple located that He said His Name will remane forever?

Charles I never claimed to have all the answers.

What's apparent in scripture which you choose to ingnore is that He said that there are things that are everlasting.

When He says something is forever, perpetual and/or everalasting I believe it regardless. Why? Because He said so.

I don't have all the answers.

How all this is going to 'play' I'm not going to try to figure it out or come up with assumptions.

He says His Name is there forever where an abomination sits, I believe it.

What alot of people have is a dispensational thinking. That the New has completely replaced the 'Old'.

How could the Temple operate with the death, burial and ressurection of Yeshua? I don't know but He said it will.

Marc

[ContentInHim]

While I believe that a Temple will be built and the sacrificial system re-established, I don't think we should take any part in it (YET). I'm looking forward to it only because my Messiah will be returning close after that, not because I need further atonement. Whether the sacrifices are done soon in a Temple on the Temple Mount or in a Tabernacle on the Mount of Olives (which is a majority Palestinian land holding except for the churches and the cemetary anyway so it's a highly unlikely site), the only impact on me is to keep alert and pray! Only after Messiah returns will I go to the Temple as prophesied!

[Charles YTK]

Charles do you understand the difference between sin offerings and other offerings? And the purpose of the Tabernacle?


Charles do you know the purpose of the offerings?

Marc



Marc,
I tend to write posts that are too long. I try to shorten them some by not going into every detail. Yes I do know the difference. I am beginning to be irritated at you telling me that I do not understand the Hebraic context or the true meaning of anything in the scriptures. I do not claim to be a scholar, but I am not ignorant either.

The Apostles continued in the Temple service because this is what they had been raised in. And Yeshua does not discourage them from doing so. He will continue to honor the old covenant until that generation born at his oming is completed, about 40 years. However he does warn them that the entire temple system complex is about to be destroyed. He establishes their faith on the permanent which is in God and his Kingdom rather than the temporary which was built by men after the pattern of the eternal but which was itself not that eternal thing. And in the end God himself allowed the temple to be destroyed, the sacrificial service ended and the Levites removed from the equation.

I realize too that there will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom. I believe they will serve a diferent function, being memorials to the accomplished work of Messiah rather than prophetic rehersals looking foward to that work. If you can image looking into the Kingdom 300 years after the return of the Lord, in a world free from the effects of a fallen world of sin and disease and poverty, how people will actually forget what it was like in the past (Today) and the terrible price that had to be paid for our living apart from God. The sacrifices will make real and vivid object lessons about what took place in the past. It will teach generations of people about the salvation they have but who were raised in the presence of Messiah and have never experience first hand the horrors of this world. And even with that, in the end some will say in their ignorance, "Who made this Yeshua to be king over all of us? We can rule ourselves." And so yet another rebellion will take place. This is when the flesh nature and physical life is totally eliminated at the end of the Millenial Kingdom.

The Old system which in its operation looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and his Kingdom was fulfilled in the birth, life, death, and resurrecion of Messiah. The Temple service of the Kingdom age will serve another purpose.

[Charles YTK]

While I believe that a Temple will be built and the sacrificial system re-established, I don't think we should take any part in it (YET). I'm looking forward to it only because my Messiah will be returning close after that, not because I need further atonement. Whether the sacrifices are done soon in a Temple on the Temple Mount or in a Tabernacle on the Mount of Olives (which is a majority Palestinian land holding except for the churches and the cemetary anyway so it's a highly unlikely site), the only impact on me is to keep alert and pray! Only after Messiah returns will I go to the Temple as prophesied!
This is my position as well. If the Jews were to re-establish the Tabernacle it would be to re-establish the Old Covenant rather than enter the New Covenant which God provided through Messiah. It would further harden their hearts against the Gospel of Yeshua and deny his completed work on the cross.

The doing of the law which does not have at it's heart the realization of Yeshua being the fulfillment of it, is just another rejection of his being King. It is the same thing if we take the law of God and try to do it legalistically following every detail in order to make ourselves holy enough for God to earn our own salvation then we have frustrated the way God makes us righteous, which is through tusting faith in the one he sent.

I believe totally that God took the old Temple away because it stood as an obstacle between Israel and faith in Yeshua their Messiah. It is the heart of the Old Covenant, which I believe he ended and replaced with the New Covenant. (That is another thread and subject) Perhaps this is why the Palestinians were allowed to have control over much of Jerusalem, to prevent even the Tabernacle from being set up.

In some independent surveys that were published a while back (sorry I can not provide a quote) the majority of Jews in Israel are opposed to trying to rebuild the temple at all. Right now it has been pretty well proven that the former temple site is actually between the Mosque and the Dome of the rock. It was located where the grove of trees now stand, and a new temple COULD be built there withut the destruction of either Muslim structures, allowing the outer court to remain in the hands of the Gentiles (as the scriptures say) but this construction would require the tearing down of the current Western wall, which now by tradition has become more important that having a New Temple in its place.

I think more American Evangelical want the Temple built than the entire population of Jews world wide. And for the reason you stated, they believe it is key to the Lords return.

[Wags]

Where???? Why???

Where in scripture does it say that Yeshua let the apostles keep attending temple services because it was something they were raised with? Torah isn't just a nice cultural thing to do because you are Jewish (no matter what the MJAA might say).

Doing away with Torah would have been a pretty raddical teaching in those days - so why doesn't scripture show that is what Yeshua taught? Why does scripture actually show us the opposite that He came NOT to abolish Torah.

Why is the destruction of the 2nd temple different then destruction of the previous temple? What about all those people that couldn't sacrifice during the time there was no temple previously, what happened to them?

[ContentInHim]

Salvation was ALWAYS by faith, not by the sacrificial system.

:idea: Actually Yeshua said he would destroy the Temple (and I agree that it was after a trial period of 40 years) and raise it again in 3 days. Well, he WAS resurrected in 3 days, true, but also there will be HIS temple in the third millenium (a day is as a thousand years) - one he will build and occupy in the midst of his people. That's the one I look forward to! :)

[Charles YTK]

Marc,

Because the Lord said Perputual or evelasting does not mean for all eternity. Perputual means repeating year after year. and the context of everlasting has to be considered; is it everlasting like the covenant with Noach which is with all men of the earth and not conditional, or is it in reference to the Sinai covenant which was conditional upon Israel maintaining their part of the covenant? The ordiances of sacrifices were perpetual, done year after year, and were everlasting so long as Israel was faithful to the covenant and allowed to remain in the land. We are currently in an enteruption of the "Perpetual and everlasting" feature of the Temple service are we not?

The old Covenant itself bears testimony that there would be another covenant to replace it. And Moshe was told that the things he was to build for the tabernacle were only copies of that whch he was being shown in heaven. Those things in heaven are continuing to this day and they seem to be the everlasting and eternal part of this.

He says there will be no end of days, and that the earth and heavens are eternal yet it also says that he will remove even these in a great fire as the very elements of the earth are melted and the old ways done aay with and never to be remembered. He makes a new heaven and a new earth.

God is eternal. Outside of that everything else subject to his will.

[Charles YTK]

Salvation was ALWAYS by faith, not by the sacrificial system.

:idea: Actually Yeshua said he would destroy the Temple (and I agree that it was after a trial period of 40 years) and raise it again in 3 days. Well, he WAS resurrected in 3 days, true, but also there will be HIS temple in the third millenium (a day is as a thousand years) - one he will build and occupy in the midst of his people. That's the one I look forward to! :)
Amen to that! :amen:


I think though, for those who have trusting faith in this life, will receive Glorified bodies when he comes at the resurrection and we will live in his presence in the place that he is preparing (New Jerusalem) and we will be allowed to worship in the Tabernacle of heaven, as well as visiting the one set up on earth for those who reamin in physical bodies as subject of the Kingdom. I see us traversing back and forth between New Jerusalem and Earth as we serve the King in the work of discipling the nations and teaching them his ways.

[Charles YTK]

Where???? Why???

Where in scripture does it say that Yeshua let the apostles keep attending temple services because it was something they were raised with? Torah isn't just a nice cultural thing to do because you are Jewish (no matter what the MJAA might say).

Doing away with Torah would have been a pretty raddical teaching in those days - so why doesn't scripture show that is what Yeshua taught? Why does scripture actually show us the opposite that He came NOT to abolish Torah.

Why is the destruction of the 2nd temple different then destruction of the previous temple? What about all those people that couldn't sacrifice during the time there was no temple previously, what happened to them?
When the first temple was destroyed, the people were to be sent into Exile for 70 years and then they would return. Messiah was still far in the future at that time and the first Temple serving it's function to lead us to faith in the Messiah who would come.

In the Second Temple the Messiah who was to come had done so, and the Old Covenant was terminated in favor of a better covenant built upon better promises. The Temple as it was established under the Old Covenant no longer was able to serve the function which it was given. It became a obstacle holding people away from God's means of Salvation. It was the very Temple authority, the high priest himself who ordered the torture and execution of God's son. What spiritual life was left in that system that was so corrupt and blind that it could not look beyond it's own power and grandure to see the greater glory of Messiah standing before them? How hard was their hearts to look at the naked scourged body of Messiah and knowing all the scriptures and not be able to see who he was? The Old Covenant was finshed, and on Passover the last sacrifice for Atonement that would ever be one was completed. Yeshua said it best, "It is Finshed!" The high point of that entire system was focused on the day of Atonement. All the sin offerings and whatever else was done brought every man and the entire nation to Yom Kippur. And now that is done, never to be repeated. The temple became a empty shell as the glory and life of God walked out of it And took those last steps to Golgotha.

That is the difference between the destruction of the temple of Solomon and the Herodian Temple, Messiah had come.

[Wags]

Charles you still didn't answer the question (I've asked it before) what happened to those people who lived after the first temple was destroyed? They couldn't sacrifice - so what did they do?

I see scripture that says the "old" is beoming obsolete - but I don't see any scripture that says that the "old" is compeltely done away. I see scripture that says heaven and earth will pass away first, but nothing that says that has already happened.

[Charles YTK]

Charles you still didn't answer the question (I've asked it before) what happened to those people who lived after the first temple was destroyed? They couldn't sacrifice - so what did they do?

I see scripture that says the "old" is beoming obsolete - but I don't see any scripture that says that the "old" is compeltely done away. I see scripture that says heaven and earth will pass away first, but nothing that says that has already happened.

I think that when Heaven and earth pass away we will have not need of Torah at all.
When they are passed away so also shall the flesh nature. So to use this figure of speech in a literal way makes no sense.



Those people in Babylon, what did they do? Probably the same sort of things that the Jews do today, pray, repent and trust in Gods mercy. What else can they possibly have done? But what they didn't do for those 70 years is rely on the Temple service and the Levites to stand between them and God.


You ask questions and then when I answer you just change direction and choose another place to stand. You asked what the difference was between the destruction of the first temple and that of the second. I answered you that the differene was Messiah who came before the destruction of the second, and who was still a long way off with the first temple. The Old Covenant was not ending until Messiah came to bring in the New Covenant. Do you not have any further thoughts on this question or are you just frustrated and looking for another place to find an objection?

I am trying to show you that when you arrive at the destination you no longer need a map or a guide to show you the way. When Israel came to the place in time when Messiah was to come, the Torah which was our guide to Messiah and the map to God's will was no longer needed. Now we need a guide and map to navigate within the Kingdom of God. And that is the Torah of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is only realized by being born again and living with God in us through Messiah. This is why Israel has not yet entered the New Covenant, they refuse the one who is the way the truth and the life.

So how can every man know God? This is only in regards to those who have entered the New Covenant and does not apply to those who are trying to live outside of it. Just as the Old Covenant held no blessings for those who refused it and stood against it, like the heathern nations, A person must be in the covenant to enjoy it's benefits. You enter the New Covenant through faith in God's Messiah. If a person tries to know God meerly through the keeping of the law, then they are still going to struggle within the old Covenant and never come to the place God has revealed himself to us in these last days, that is the person of Yeshua and His spirit living in us.

All men will know God when all men acknowledge that Yeshua is Messiah and are born again. Israel will not do this as a nation until they look upon the one whom they have pierced, which I believe to be in the second coming. Until then they are stuck in the Old Covenant, except for individuals who separate from the national program and take an individual approach to receive Yeshua.

[visionary]

Since God allows for the fulfillment of the temple rebuilding prophecy to come true, I believe that because of its timing and significance that it will have the final eye opening (blinders removed) experience for the jewish nation. I believe it has to do with the abomination and the doing away with the daily. Though I will make no claim to fully understand, I am waiting and watching to see how all these prophecies can be true at the same time period ( end times).

[Charles YTK]

Since God allows for the fulfillment of the temple rebuilding prophecy to come true, I believe that because of its timing and significance that it will have the final eye opening (blinders removed) experience for the jewish nation. I believe it has to do with the abomination and the doing away with the daily. Though I will make no claim to fully understand, I am waiting and watching to see how all these prophecies can be true at the same time period ( end times).
Then again the book of Daniel is difficult and is translated wrong in most bibles in the passage in question. This error may have been transfered to the supposed Quote from Yeshua as well where it says "As spoken of by the prophet Daniel" in Matt 24.

Daniel says "and on a wing (Kanaph) destruction"

And it is Parallel to the verses that say "Like a flood destruction will come upon them. "Kanaph" means wing but in the context can mean the burst of air from a birds wing, or wind, like sudden and unexpected. Daniel may have been saying "And suddenly without warning like a bust of air from a birds wing, destruction will come upon them" The words "Temple" or "wing of the temple" is all added by translators and does not appear in the text at all.

So does the Antichrist defile a temple in the future? I am not convinced based on a reading of Daniel. Will Antichrist come and deceive? Yes for sure. But perhaps the Temple he will inhabit is the temple of the body of believers.

[visionary]

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.this verse when tied to Daniel's prophesy gives credence to the idea of a future abomination of desolation.Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)In fact these two verses are the reason that cause many to not want the temple to be built again before the millinium. Here is where we get the idea that sacrifices will be done again in the last days. Daniel 8:11
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.The sacificing practices have to be in place to be taken away. Daniel 8:12
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.I have heard the understanding of it being the Roman's work at removing the temple of Jerusalem back in 70 Ad as the fulfillment of that verse, but then 2000 years have gone by and the end of transgression has not yet occurred, nor do we have any history of this covenant spoke of... Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.with this verse you see the jewish people as a nation seemingly blinders off, working with God again as they should. Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.fascinating subject of study, trying to understand this vision that Daniel was told Daniel 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.




Personally I have no active attachment to the rebuilding movement of the temple in Jerusalem because.... Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

[Steve Petersen]

Some of the events in Daniel happened during the time of Antiochus IV. See FFOZ's material about Hannukah.

[ContentInHim]

Some of the events in Daniel happened during the time of Antiochus IV. See FFOZ's material about Hannukah.
But that shouldn't preclude their happening again in the future, should it?

[visionary]

But that shouldn't preclude their happening again in the future, should it?Amen... particial fulfillment is not the answer. Like you said there is nothing precluding end time fulfillment just before the Lord's return.

[jgonz]

I will be excited to see the Temple rebuilt... because that will mean things are happening quickly and Messiah will be returning soon. :)

As to whether or not I will "partake" in the Temple sacrifices, Who knows? Right now, I live in Texas, so it would be rather difficult to pop over to Jerusalem to do a wave offering... ;) lol But who knows what's going to happen? I agree with whoever said, we'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

[visionary]

I imagine there will be quite a pull to either get into the Jeerusalem sacrificial services or to stay away. All regions of the world will have their say in this matter and it will be heated. .... ultimately drawing blood up to the horses bridle... pretty violent I would say.

[mpossoff]

I imagine there will be quite a pull to either get into the Jeerusalem sacrificial services or to stay away. All regions of the world will have their say in this matter and it will be heated. .... ultimately drawing blood up to the horses bridle... pretty violent I would say.

Depends on what korbanot (offerings) we're referring too.

Offerings in the Temple were not for eternal salvation. Their only purpose was to worship G-d, only two were for sin. The 'protocal' so to speak.

Now granted the Temple isn't here.

BUT scripture says it will come back.

What one has to do is go to the source, the people closest to Yeshua. Not necessarily 'tainted' theology passed down.

Who were the source? The Apostles and deciples. They were the closest to Yeshua more than anyone.

What did they do after the resurrection? They still worshipped in the Temple and with the same 'protocal'.

Did the miss something? If the Temple served no purpose then why did those that were close to Yeshua still worship in the Temple with the same 'protocal' that always existed?

Because Hashem said so.

I think alot of people disregard this fact. People say "We don't need the Temple anymore because of Yeshua". Then they might say "This was a transitional period". In Acts it wasn't and it's a fact that it wasn't. The main transition was the inclusion of the Gentiles all else stayed the same.

Then there are theologies that totally disregard the Temple ans it's korbanot (offerings) that the korbanot (offerings) aren't necessary because of Yeshua. The Apostles and deciples still did it!

Now again granted we don't have a Temple today. And it is a mitvot to not 'korbanot (offerings)' without a Temple so by not 'korbanot (offerings)' it's a mitvot.

The Temple will return as it is written. The Temple, the Land, Israel and Yeshua are 'tied into each other.

The Espitle to the Hebrews purpose was to let the Hebrews know that you need to get off your behind and stop whining over not having a Temple(my personal synopsis). 'We no longer have a Temple, what do we do?' Hebrews never says that there iwon't be a Temple anymore but tells us how to live without one.

Marc

[Steve Petersen]

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles...20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[greg1290]

Could this be the abomination of desolation (http://jesus-survival.com/Abomination-desolation.htm)?

[visionary]

Could this be the abomination of desolation (http://jesus-survival.com/Abomination-desolation.htm)?I have a different understanding about receiving the Holy Spirit... One .. the gift of understanding the truth. John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Two ... the gift of discernment. ...1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Three... the knowledge of being a part of the family of God.. Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.Four.. the knowledge (knowing) it all comes from God. 1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.When you read of those receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.. there is no mention of the gift of tongues. Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.even when it talks about the actual receiving of the Holy Spirit there is no mention of the gift of tongues Acts 11:15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?There is no mention of the gift of tongues that gives indication that it is the sign of the Holy Spirit baptism in the word of God. The few places in the Word of God that mentions the gift of tongues, it was always referenced with interpretation availability.

[mpossoff]

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 tells us what the different manifestations of the Ruach HaKodesh are. There are more but the 'list' is a general list.

Speaking in tongues is the first sign after one is immersed in the name of Yeshua according to scripture. But just because you don't recieve the gift of tongues it doesn't mean you haven't recieved the Ruach HaKodesh. Again according to scripture it's the 'first sign'.

1 Corinthians 12:7-10

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

According to scripture the above in bold are manifestations of the Ruach but there could be others that expand from each.

There is no mention of the gift of tongues that gives indication that it is the sign of the Holy Spirit baptism in the word of God

I almost every case, according to scripture, tongues is the first indication that it's the sign of the Ruach immersion in the name of Yeshua.



Marc

[visionary]

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 tells us what the different manifestations of the Ruach HaKodesh are. There are more but the 'list' is a general list.

Speaking in tongues is the first sign after one is immersed in the name of Yeshua according to scripture. But just because you don't recieve the gift of tongues it doesn't mean you haven't recieved the Ruach HaKodesh. Again according to scripture it's the 'first sign'.

1 Corinthians 12:7-10

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

According to scripture the above in bold are manifestations of the Ruach but there could be others that expand from each.

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I almost every case, according to scripture, tongues is the first indication that it's the sign of the Ruach immersion in the name of Yeshua.



Marcshow me where?Again according to scripture it's the 'first sign'.the quote in Corinthians....But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

[mpossoff]

the quote in Corinthians....But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

visionary you have to read it in context.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all

The above is correct. Each one of us is given the manifestation.

I might be given the dicerning of spirits and possibly other manifestations

You might be given the working of miracles and other manifestations.

But for the profit of all.

We all might just be given faith and that's OK. Nobody said you must have be able to have the manifestation of working miracles or speaking in tongues, etc.

If you read Acts you will see every time one was immersed in the name of Yeshua they started speaking in tongues.

Marc

[visionary]

If you read Acts you will see every time one was immersed in the name of Yeshua they started speaking in tongues.

MarcNot so.... Just as I quoted events in Acts where no mention of the speaking of tongues was brought up when they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I know that you have been told to see things in light of speaking in tongues, but it is not there as frequently as you have come to understand. Speaking in tongues is the last gift mentioned in Corinthians and the least gift manifested or mentioned in the bible.

[mpossoff]

Hi visionary just because speaking in tongues isn't the first on the 'list' doesn't mean anything.

Acts 10:44-46
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Isaiah 28:11Speaking in tongues was prophesized
For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people

Acts 19:1-6
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied

Again each time one was immersed in Acts they spoke in tongues. Probably not each time but most of the time.

Speaking in tongues according to scripture is the first sign that the Ruach has fell upon them. But it's not the only spiritual manifestation when immersed.

Marc

[greg1290]

it is first of the list in 1 Corinthians 12:3

[jgonz]

If you read Acts you will see every time one was immersed in the name of Yeshua they started speaking in tongues.

Hhmmm... That's not how my Bibles read...

[visionary]

we probably need to start another thread just for this subjec and let this thread get back to OP.