Woo, good question?

[Seeker of the Truth]

So, here's an honest question:

When we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and do the will of our Heavenly Father (basically, we become "saved") are we Christians in spirit or Jews in spirit?

Romans 2:28 - 29

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

[arunma]

I would say "both." There is such a thing as being a Jew according to ethnicity. In that sense, no amount of godliness will make you a Jew anymore than dancing well will make you black (not that it matters, since God doesn't seem to care about anyone's ethnicity). But the Bible teaches that there is also a spiritual Israel, a remnant chosen by grace. In that sense, everyone who is a Christian is also spiritually a Jew. As Galatians 3:29 says, all who belong to Christ are descended from Abraham.

[DeaconDean]

I say neither. We are in Christ. His image is upon us. To be perfected, just like Jesus, at a future time (Rom. 8:29). Paul tells us:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. -Gal 3:28 (KJV)

I am not a Jew, neither am I any longer a Greek (Gentile), neither am I a slave to my old ways, neither am I free from my duties to Him, neither am I male, nor am I female, I have been reborn in the image of the Son.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.-Gal 3:27 (KJV)

God looks at me, He sees the Son, not DeaconDean.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PrincetonGuy]

So, here's an honest question:

When we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and do the will of our Heavenly Father (basically, we become "saved") are we Christians in spirit or Jews in spirit?

Romans 2:28 - 29

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rom. 2:28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. (NASB, 1995)

Rom. 2:28. For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical.
29. Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart--it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God. (NRSV)


In the middle of the first century when the Epistle to the Romans was written (58 A.D.), Christianity was viewed as a sect of Judaism. Nonetheless, Rom. 2:28-29 is part of Paul’s argument that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” and the Jews being spoken of here are physically circumcised Jews who, like everyone else, have sinned. When we, being either Jews or Gentiles, “put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and do the will of our Heavenly Father (basically, we become "saved") we become Christians of the circumcision "which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."

[PrincetonGuy]

God looks at me, He sees the Son, not DeaconDean.


When God looks at one of us, He sees us—not the Son, the devil, or the man in the moon. God is neither nearsighted nor farsighted; God is neither stupid nor delusional—He sees all things clearly just as they are.

1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (NASB, 1995, with my emphasis in underlined type)

Christians (in the New Testament sense) are not just positionally righteous; they are truly and genuinely righteous just as Christ is righteous because they have chosen to forsake sin and obey their Savior.

[DeaconDean]

Well then, I guess Paul lied when he said that we:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal 3:27 (KJV)

So I guess we are wrong to take God and Paul at their word.

As for me, I believe what the scriptures say, I was baptized into Christ, and because I have done so, I have put on Christ, so that now God does not see me, He sees His Son.

That is what Galatians 3:27 says, and that is what I believe. Period.

John Gill comments:

"Not that it is to be imagined that these churches of Galatia, or any of the primitive churches, consisted of baptized and unbaptized persons; for this would be acting contrary to the commission of Christ and the order of the Gospel: but this way of speaking supposes that there might be some of them, who though baptized in water, yet not into Christ; and that those who are truly and rightly baptized, who are proper subjects of it, and to whom it is administered in a proper manner, are baptized into Christ: not that by baptism they are brought into union with Christ, but into communion with him; for they are not merely baptized in his name, and by his authority, and according to his command, and into his doctrine, and a profession of him; but into a participation of the blessings of grace which are in him, and come through his sufferings and death; for they that are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death and resurrection from the dead; they are led by faith to behold the cleansing of their souls, and the remission of their sins by his blood, and their justification by his righteousness; how he was delivered for their offences, died for their sins, was buried in the grave, and their iniquities with him, and rose again for their justification; of all which, baptism, performed by immersion, is a lively emblem; and this is to be baptized into Christ, namely, being baptized believing in him, and calling on his name: and such

have put on Christ;
both before and at baptism: before it they put him on as the Lord their righteousness; his righteousness is compared to a garment, is called the best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet; this is imputed to the elect of God by the Father, through a gracious act of his, and what they are clothed and covered with by the Son, and is put upon them and applied unto them by the Spirit; and which faith receiving puts off its own rags of righteousness, and makes use of this as its proper dress to appear in before the most High; and such through divine grace are enabled to put off the old man and put on the new;"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ga&chapter=003&verse=027&next=028&prev=026

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PrincetonGuy]

Well then, I guess Paul lied when he said that we:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal 3:27 (KJV)

So I guess we are wrong to take God and Paul at their word.

As for me, I believe what the scriptures say, I was baptized into Christ, and because I have done so, I have put on Christ, so that now God does not see me, He sees His Son.

That is what Galatians 3:27 says, and that is what I believe. Period.

John Gill comments:

"Not that it is to be imagined that these churches of Galatia, or any of the primitive churches, consisted of baptized and unbaptized persons; for this would be acting contrary to the commission of Christ and the order of the Gospel: but this way of speaking supposes that there might be some of them, who though baptized in water, yet not into Christ; and that those who are truly and rightly baptized, who are proper subjects of it, and to whom it is administered in a proper manner, are baptized into Christ: not that by baptism they are brought into union with Christ, but into communion with him; for they are not merely baptized in his name, and by his authority, and according to his command, and into his doctrine, and a profession of him; but into a participation of the blessings of grace which are in him, and come through his sufferings and death; for they that are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death and resurrection from the dead; they are led by faith to behold the cleansing of their souls, and the remission of their sins by his blood, and their justification by his righteousness; how he was delivered for their offences, died for their sins, was buried in the grave, and their iniquities with him, and rose again for their justification; of all which, baptism, performed by immersion, is a lively emblem; and this is to be baptized into Christ, namely, being baptized believing in him, and calling on his name: and such

have put on Christ;
both before and at baptism: before it they put him on as the Lord their righteousness; his righteousness is compared to a garment, is called the best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet; this is imputed to the elect of God by the Father, through a gracious act of his, and what they are clothed and covered with by the Son, and is put upon them and applied unto them by the Spirit; and which faith receiving puts off its own rags of righteousness, and makes use of this as its proper dress to appear in before the most High; and such through divine grace are enabled to put off the old man and put on the new;"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ga&chapter=003&verse=027&next=028&prev=026

God Bless

Till all are one.

John Gill is very much correct in what he writes here. Compare what he writes with what the author of 2 Peter wrote:

2 Peter 2:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3. seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6. and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7. and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11. for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

All three of our authors are in agreement here, and all three of them are presenting a truth that directly contradicts DeaconDean's statement, “God looks at me, He sees the Son, not DeaconDean.” Christians (in the New Testament sense) have put on the divine nature, that is, they have become born-again having the nature of Christ rather than their former nature. God sees Christians just as they are, with their divine nature rather than their former nature. Anyone who is living a double life manifesting both their former nature and a divine nature is committing adultery with Christ,

Rom 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

It is absolutely necessary for God to see each man as he actually is, both the unregenerate man and the regenerate man, so that He can convict each man of any need he may have for change.

The Christian faith is not merely an abstract philosophical concept—the Christian faith is the effectual faith in Christ that causes our former nature, the “old man,” to die so that we may become married to another, the risen Christ, putting on and possessing and manifesting in our daily lives the righteousness and holiness of Christ. This is the very essence of the Christian faith and what makes us acceptable in the sight of God—He sees us, not as the men we were, but as the men we have become, in faith and practice, through our faith in Christ and His atonement.

The 20th century concept that God does not see us when he looks at us, but sees instead Christ, is the most pathetic false doctrine every concocted by men, a doctrine that makes sinners feel good about themselves and their sinful state so that they do not take hold of the promise of Christ in John 8:31-36,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Again, my precious readers,

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

(All Scripture quotations are from the Updated NASB, 1995, with my emphasis in underlined type)

[DeaconDean]

all three of them are presenting a truth that directly contradicts DeaconDean's statement,..they have become born-again having the nature of Christ rather than their former nature. God sees Christians just as they are, with their divine nature rather than their former nature.

And yet I'm wrong?!?

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.-Gal 3:27 (KJV)

You mean to say that I haven't had Christ's righteousness imputed to me and therefore when God looks at me He doesn't see Christ's righteousness, but me only?

John Gill said:

"...they are clothed and covered with by the Son, and is put upon them and applied unto them by the Spirit; and which faith receiving puts off its own rags of righteousness, and makes use of this as its proper dress to appear in before the most High;"

So I haven't been dressed in His righteousness? That I have already:

"put him on as the Lord their righteousness; his righteousness is compared to a garment, is called the best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet; this is imputed to the elect of God by the Father,"

I haven't put on the Lord? I haven't been already dressed in His garments? I haven't been given "the best robe?" I haven't been dressed in His wedding garment? I'm not already wearing "fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness?" I'm not already clothed in His garment: "down to the feet?"

The 20th century concept that God does not see us when he looks at us, but sees instead Christ, is the most pathetic false doctrine every concocted by men,

I have "put on Christ" and I know that the Bible says that because I did:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2 Cor. 5:17

I'm a new creature, born of the King, a Son, heir to the throne, my old former self is gone. And I have put on His righteousness, been given the best robe, clothed in His wedding garment down to my toes, I'm dressed in Christ.

Keith Davis and Bob Jones say:

"The Lord is saying that He has stripped us in order to clothe us with Himself. We are not going to be clothed with strikingly beautiful garments to the natural eye, rather it will be with a spirit of humility according to I Peter 5:5. These garments will only be beautiful to the spiritual eye and to the Lord. Being clothed in a spirit of humility will produce meekness or a teachable spirit capable of change into the very image of Christ. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (Romans 13:14) And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. (Colossians 3:14) The most important teaching from these scriptures is that we clothe ourselves in love. Through divine love we will then begin to see the bond of unity that will produce the anointing. If we clothe ourselves with the anointing then we will make no provision for the flesh and its lusts.
Ultimately, we are being stripped in order to be prepared to inherit the Promises;
Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:24-29)
That which we have actually been stripping off is the old unregenerate nature. The base nature that was born in the Garden of Eden with the fall of man must perish as we are crucified with Christ, and are raised again to live according to Christ through His anointing and His divine character. We are then being molded into His image according to the true knowledge of Christ given to us through His Word. For it is through the true knowledge of Christ that we receive the precious and magnificent promises by which we become partakers of His divine nature. (II Peter 1:4)" Under this new created state all prejudices and distinctions of man vanish. We become one in Christ according to one Spirit through one anointing. We are to be “galvanized” with Christ. An iron chain is a very powerful tool, however it is also greatly prone to corruption and rust. When the iron chain links have been galvanized they are coated with a layer of zinc which is non-corruptible. The chain links then become much more powerful because they are not subject to the corruption of rust and will endure even under the most harsh conditions such as salt water. Our spirits are to be galvanized with Christ and our flesh is to be coated with the anointing. Corruption will then be taking on the incorruptible nature.

http://kbproweb.com/gel/spirituality/putonchrist.shtml (oops, almost forgot that)

So I haven't "put on Christ?"

And I'm wrong?!?

Opinins vary, you have yours, I have mine.

May God bless you in your convictions.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PrincetonGuy]

And yet I'm wrong?!?

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.-Gal 3:27 (KJV)

You mean to say that I haven't had Christ's righteousness imputed to me and therefore when God looks at me He doesn't see Christ's righteousness, but me only?

When God looks at one of us, He sees us—not the Son, the devil, or the man in the moon. God is neither nearsighted nor farsighted; God is neither stupid nor delusional—He sees all things clearly just as they are. If one of us is a sinner, He sees a sinner; if one of us has repented from his sins and has become a partaker of the divine nature, He sees a Christian who has repented from his sins and has become a partaker of the divine nature.

Upon our initial belief in Christ, our initial faith, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are clothed, so to speak, with the “best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet” (John Gill). We then have the choice to keep the robe clean through our personal obedience to Christ or to soil it through our personal disobedience. When God looks upon us, He sees us wearing that robe just as it has become, whether it is still clean and white, or it is stained with sin. He does not see Christ’s righteousness, he sees our own robe just as it has become. And He does not see Christ, He sees us, and He sees us just as we are—the robe and all.

1 Cor. 3:1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3. for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

God did not see Christ and His righteousness when he looked upon these Christians in Corinth; He saw them for what they really were, and He inspired Paul to rebuke them for being like that.

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
(NASB, 1995, with my emphasis in underlined type)

[DeaconDean]

Clothed with Fig Leaves or Righteousness?

There are no secrets with God. Adam and Eve learned that the hard way. The apostle Paul reminds us, “God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16). The writer of Hebrews says, “And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:13).
God in His infinite wisdom and grace gave Adam and Eve a grand opportunity to have dominion over all of His creation (Genesis 2:15). And in love He “commanded the man, saying, ‘From any tree of the garden you may eat freely, but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat from it you shall surely die” (vv. 16-17).
We are all too familiar with the tragic events that followed. The God who sees and knows all things visited the Garden of Eden shortly after Adam and Eve sinned by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. “They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, 'Where are you?' He said, 'I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself'” (Genesis 3:8-10).
Adam and Eve hid themselves thinking they could hide themselves from God. The effect of sin made them aware that they had disobeyed God and they were ashamed. Before they sinned they were delighted to see God, but after they sinned they did not want anything to do with Him. Sin causes us to want to hide from God physically, emotionally and spiritually because we know we are guilty.
Like Adam and we try a lot of “fig leaves” to cover up our shame and guilty conscience (v. 7). A friend of mine said, “The oldest profession is not what people think; it is the clothing industry.” We are constantly trying to cover up.
The psychological exposure caused by our sins is intolerable, and we try innumerable ways to cover it up. The end result of these modern “fig leaves” in our pagan world culture is even greater exposure and guilt. Drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, lust of the eyes, the world, the flesh, etc. do not relieve the stress of guilt; they only increase it. Evasion and excuses increase our guilt before God.
Man has never been able to make a “fig leaf” that will cover his sin. We try “fig leaves” of good religious works, church membership, baptism, confirmation, tithing, the sacraments, religious philosophy, new age movements, philanthropy, etc. But we still cannot escape our guilt.
All outward acts of religion without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins are withered “fig leaves.”
There is only one remedy for sin. “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them” (Genesis 3:21).
God told them before they sinned, “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). The Bible says, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23a). “The person who sins will die” (Ezek. 18:20). Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment they sinned. In time, they died physically.
Can you imagine the shock in the mind and heart of Adam and Eve when they saw two dead animals, probably lambs, lying dead before their eyes? God killed the animals and made from their skins garments and clothed Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21).
“The wages of sin is death.” But the immediate death that occurred was not their death, though they were guilty and deserved the death penalty; it was the death of two innocent animals. In His mercy God killed those animals for Adam and Eve. They were guilty and deserved death, but God chose two innocent animals to die as their substitutes. They pointed to another Substitute who in time would give Himself as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). The only death that can possibly deal with sin is His death. Only His blood can cleanse us from all sin (Heb. 9:22; 1 John 1:7, 9). There is no other detergent that will wipe away our guilt (1 Peter 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9).
God’s perfect covering for sin is the blood of the Lamb of God. Fig leaves will never do what God alone can do. God’s perfect provision and covering is through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Don’t try coming to God with your “fig leaves.” They may be in fashion, but they are inadequate. God will not accept them; they can never please God because no death has taken place. The penalty for sin must be paid (Ezek. 18:4). You will pay it, or your divine Substitute must pay it. God has dealt with our guilt in the death of Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:13;Rom. 3:24-25; 4:25). Christ died for our sin as our substitute. The penalty for our sin has been paid in full (Rom. 5:6, 8; 1 Jn. 3:5; 4:9-10; 1 Pet. 2:24).
Today, God fully clothes every individual who believes in Christ with the perfect righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21; Isa. 61:10).
The nakedness of your sin must be covered. Are you covered with the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Are you dressed in His robes of righteousness alone?
Either you will stand before your eternal Judge in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, or you will stand naked in your sins.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/may19.html (http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/may19.html)

What else was achieved when Christ died for us? Gal. 2:20; Rom. 6:4, 6, 8; Col. 2:20. What was achieved in his resurrection? Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 2:12-13. In him, what do we become? 2 Cor. 5:21. He became sin for us; did he also become righteousness for us? 1 Cor. 1:30. Is it through him that we are made righteous? Rom. 5:19.
Comment: These scriptures have concepts that are foreign to modern thought, but if we want to understand the biblical message, we need to explore the way that Paul explains our means of salvation. We died with Christ, were buried with him, and raised to life with him. Through faith, we are united with him. He shared in us and we share in him.
Let's use accounting terms: Just as our sins were transferred to his account so that he could pay the penalty of those sins, so also his righteousness is transferred to our account so that we may be counted righteous. His righteousness is imputed to us. Not only are our debts forgiven, our bank account is also filled. An unlimited number of debts can be forgiven. We are clothed with his righteousness (Gal. 3:27; Col. 3:3), not our filthy rags.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/gospel/gos6.htm (http://www.wcg.org/lit/gospel/gos6.htm)

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal 3:27 (KJV)

As for me, I believe what the scriptures say, I was baptized into Christ, and because I have done so, I have put on Christ, so that now God does not see me, He sees His Son.

That is what Galatians 3:27 says, and that is what I believe. Period. As it said above:

"Today, God fully clothes every individual who believes in Christ with the perfect righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21; Isa. 61:10).
The nakedness of your sin must be covered. Are you covered with the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Are you dressed in His robes of righteousness alone?
Either you will stand before your eternal Judge in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, or you will stand naked in your sins....We are clothed with his righteousness (Gal. 3:27; Col. 3:3), not our filthy rags.

And since I am clothed in His righteousness, that is what God sees when He looks at me, Christ's righteousness.

Once again, you have your opinion, I have mine. May God bless you in yours.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Matthan]

Rom. 2:28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. (NASB, 1995)

Rom. 2:28. For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical.
29. Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart--it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God. (NRSV)


In the middle of the first century when the Epistle to the Romans was written (58 A.D.), Christianity was viewed as a sect of Judaism. Nonetheless, Rom. 2:28-29 is part of Paul’s argument that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” and the Jews being spoken of here are physically circumcised Jews who, like everyone else, have sinned. When we, being either Jews or Gentiles, “put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and do the will of our Heavenly Father (basically, we become "saved") we become Christians of the circumcision "which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."
A lot of people seem to forget one basic truth about Scripture. Paul did not write his Epistle to the Romans, neither did he write his epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians or any other churches. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write their Gospels, epistles or history (Luke for Acts).

The Holy Spirit of God wrote them. He wrote all of them! Every word was by His Holy decree. And, when you read the Bible while keeping this fact in mind, you get far greater results in your study.

I personally find it rather amusing that one major denomination (that envokes Mary) maintains that the Bible should never have been written in the first place. They claim that God never directed anyone to write it, and they also point up that Jesus Himself never wrote a single word of it when He could have. Talk about being spiritually myoptic. They completely overlook the absolute fact that God wrote it all !!!!! And, when they spout out that Scripture alone is not sufficient for obtaining salvation, they never for a second realize that they are "insulting" God (I can't use the proper word without getting banned) because, not only did He write it, He also clearly told us three different times that we were not to add (or delete) anything to it (from it). Why? Because our best "wisdom" is impossibly crude when compared to His omniscience. And, His telling us not to add to it is a clear if somewhat indirect way of telling us that the Bible is completely sufficient for all of our spiritual needs just the way He wrote it.

Just my humble opinion, and sorry for getting off-topic.

Matthan

[PrincetonGuy]

And since I am clothed in His righteousness, that is what God sees when He looks at me, Christ's righteousness.

Once again, you have your opinion, I have mine. May God bless you in yours.


What should we believe—scriptures taken out of context making them appear to the naïve to say the opposite of what they actually say in their original context or the truth as I have documented it? I believe that we should believe the truth.

When God looks at one of us, He sees us—not the Son, the devil, or the man in the moon. God is neither nearsighted nor farsighted; God is neither stupid nor delusional—He sees all things clearly just as they are. If one of us is a sinner, He sees a sinner; if one of us has repented from his sins and has become a partaker of the divine nature, He sees a Christian who has repented from his sins and has become a partaker of the divine nature.

Upon our initial belief in Christ, our initial faith, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are clothed, so to speak, with the “best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet” (John Gill). We then have the choice to keep the robe clean through our personal obedience to Christ or to soil it through our personal disobedience. When God looks upon us, He sees us wearing that robe just as it has become, whether it is still clean and white, or it is stained with sin. He does not see Christ’s righteousness, he sees our own robe just as it has become. And He does not see Christ, He sees us, and He sees us just as we are—the robe and all.

1 Cor. 3:1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3. for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

God did not see Christ and His righteousness when he looked upon these Christians in Corinth; He saw them for what they really were, and He inspired Paul to rebuke them for being like that.

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Theses scriptures, quoted in context, prove conclusively and incontrovertibly that God sees us just as we actually are. Every verse in the Bible in which Christians are reproved for their sin absolutely, conclusively and incontrovertibly proves that when God looked upon them He saw, not the righteousness of Christ, but the sin of the Christian and consequently inspired the Biblical writers to reprove them for their sin. My dear readers, if there is any sin of any kind in your life, be assured that God sees it, hates it, and requires that you repent of it.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(All Scripture quotations are from the Updated NASB, 1995, with my emphasis in underlined type)

[Seeker of the Truth]

A lot of people seem to forget one basic truth about Scripture. Paul did not write his Epistle to the Romans, neither did he write his epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians or any other churches. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write their Gospels, epistles or history (Luke for Acts).

The Holy Spirit of God wrote them. He wrote all of them! Every word was by His Holy decree. And, when you read the Bible while keeping this fact in mind, you get far greater results in your study.



What makes you think that?

[DeaconDean]

You know PrincetonGuy, you being a Northern Baptist will have a different opinion than me, a Southern Baptist.

You have you opinions, I have mine.

I'm going to rise up say, I do hope that God blesses you and your opinions and convictions.

However, I still stand by my first response:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Gal. 3:27 (KJV)

"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." -Col. 3:3 (KJV)

And here is something special from me to you:

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye...Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." -Col. 3:13,16 (KJV)

So I say to you:

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace." -Num. 6:24-26 (KJV)

I'm done.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Matthan]

What makes you think that?
Hummm, what makes me think that? Why, the Bible, of course (See 2nd Timothy 3:16 for details) Oh, and don't forget to read verse 17, too. There is a wonderful truth about God contained here.

Matthan

[arunma]

It is true that my Baptist church never taught that the right to own slaves is “clearly established by the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.”

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against and defeated Federal legislation outlawing the lynching of African Americans.

It is true that my Baptist church never taught that “the Jim Crow laws and segregation laws are Christian laws.”

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against an African American’s right to vote.

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against a woman’s right to vote.

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against desegregation and civil rights laws.

But I do not interpret the Bible in the manner that I do because I am a “Northern Baptist” or any other kind of Baptist; I am a Baptist because of the way that I interpret the Bible.

Actually, it's important for me to note that Dean does not believe any of these things, nor does any Southern Baptist that I've ever met (in fact he and other SBC Christians oppose them quite vigorously). It's true that the American Baptist split along North-South lines due to issues relating to racism and slavery. It is also true that the Southern Baptist Church supported such evils for quite awhile. But this is largely in the past. Many of the racists have moved out to independent churches, and many have switched over to paganism (as probably befits them). The evils you mentioned are very real and very serious, but I've never met a Southern Baptist who adhered to them.

As for Dean, I know that you two might have your theological differences, and that's OK. But you won't find a more dedicated soldier for Christ than DeaconDean, and I just thought I should make note of that.

[PrincetonGuy]

It is also true that the Southern Baptist Church supported such evils for quite awhile. But this is largely in the past.


Yes, this is largely in the past and I did not imply in my post that DeaconDean shares any of those views. And, of course, many Southern Baptists today would rather die an agonizing death than believe what DeaconDean has been saying about God in this thread. It is truly a tragedy that a Christian would need to waste his time refuting a doctrine that makes a mockery of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men.

[mlqurgw]

Yes, this is largely in the past and I did not imply in my post that DeaconDean shares any of those views. And, of course, many Southern Baptists today would rather die an agonizing death than believe what DeaconDean has been saying about God in this thread. It is truly a tragedy that a Christian would need to waste his time refuting a doctrine that makes a mockery of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men.Then what was it you meant to imply?


I also have a question: If God sees us as sinners after we are saved how is it that He doesn't destroy us? God hates sin and it always incurs the wrath of God. Look at the cross to find out how much He hates sin and how it stirs His wrath. When He found it on His Son he killed Him.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Hummm, what makes me think that? Why, the Bible, of course (See 2nd Timothy 3:16 for details) Oh, and don't forget to read verse 17, too. There is a wonderful truth about God contained here.

Matthan
Those epistles were specifically written to certain groups of people, Ron. As you can see in the first couple of sentences of the chapter.

What I think II Timothy is speaking of is actual prophesies. While we all believe that Paul's writings to the Romans is inspired by the Holy Spirit, the teachings were specifically written to the Romans.

[Matthan]

Those epistles were specifically written to certain groups of people, Ron. As you can see in the first couple of sentences of the chapter.

What I think II Timothy is speaking of is actual prophesies. While we all believe that Paul's writings to the Romans is inspired by the Holy Spirit, the teachings were specifically written to the Romans.
Quite true, but you are being just a tad myoptic here. The Holy Spirit did cause Paul to write the epistle to the Romans. But, the Holy Spirit also knew the importance of the epistle to the Romans, and the extent of that importance for all persons who would one day want to learn more about Jesus and His life, death, and resurrection. The Holy Spirit was in total control of every writer in the Bible, causing them to write what they wrote, and to address it to the specific groups they were writing to, and to include all of the specific words that each epistle and Godpel contains, in the specific order they appear.

Only actual prophecies? The verse clearly says "all Scripture", not any particular part or parts. Do you think God did not know the eventual importance of the epistle to the Galatians? Or of the two letters to Timothy? What I am trying to say is that He did know the importance of everything contained in Scripture, and specifically caused it to be the way it is because He did know how important it would be, not just to the person or congregation it was addressed to, but to all persons in all times.

And do not forget that the Holy Spirit's involvement with the Bible did not end with the death of John, the last of the apostles. He was also there in full force when the various writings were brought together, and when certain things were omitted while others were accepted into the canon that we call the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided the entire process. Why, He even guided the translaters of the Bible that King James sent out. God was in control then, just as He is in control now. And, just as He alone will always be in control.

Matthan

[Matthan]

It is true that my Baptist church never taught that the right to own slaves is “clearly established by the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.”

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against and defeated Federal legislation outlawing the lynching of African Americans.

It is true that my Baptist church never taught that “the Jim Crow laws and segregation laws are Christian laws.”

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against an African American’s right to vote.

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against a woman’s right to vote.

It is true that my Baptist church never lobbied against desegregation and civil rights laws.

But I do not interpret the Bible in the manner that I do because I am a “Northern Baptist” or any other kind of Baptist; I am a Baptist because of the way that I interpret the Bible.




Col. 3:3. ἀπεθάνετεγάρ, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶνκέκρυπταισὺντῷ Χριστῷ ἐντῷ Θεῷ·
Col. 3:3. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (NASB, 1995)

Col. 3:3 does Not say that when God looks at a Christian, He sees His Son rather than the Christian. And it does not say that Christians and their sins are hidden from God so that He only sees Christ and His righteousness.

DeaconDean says, “God does not see me, He sees His Son.”

Scholars of Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians have written:


Frederick Brooke Westcott (the son of B. F. Westcott), in his A Letter to Asia, wrote,
κέκρυπται, of course, expresses that our ‘life’ is truly there, although the world cannot see it, nor indeed can we ourselves entirely realize it.

Johannn Albrecht Bengel in his Gnomon Novi Testamenti wrote,
Neque Christum neque Christianos novit numdus; ac ne Christiani quidem plane seipos. (The world knows neither Christ nor Christians, and Christians do not even fully know themselves.)

W. H. Griffith Thomas, in his Studies in Colossians and Philemon, wrote,
Since Christ is now in heaven, seated “on the right hand of God” (v. 1, A.S.V.) and we are united with Him in His death and resurrection, our life must of necessity be “hid with Christ in God.” The word translated “is hid” is very suggestive because it means “has been permanently hidden,” and the thought seems to include the two ideas of secrecy and safety. Our Life is “hid” and therefore unseen by man; it is also “hid” in the sense that it is incapable of being touched or hurt by any evil power (cf. Isa. 32:2).

Handley C. G. Moule in his Colossians and Philemon Studies wrote:
And that death, because it was “with Christ,” in union with Him, was followed of course by life, by resurrection, by part and lot in His own immortal and victorious state as the Risen One; you died, and your life lies hidden, stored, safe-guarded, once placed there, secure for ever, with our (τῷ) Christ in our (τῷ) God.

Eduard Lohse, in his Die Briefe an die Kolosser wrote (translated from the German by William R. Poehlmann and Robert J. Karris),
Man has life only in that situation where he lives with Christ, obeys his Lord, and puts his trust in him. The expression “you have died” (ἀπεθάνετε) in this context takes the place of “you have been raised” (συνηγέρθητεv 1); thus the author makes clear that the consummation is not yet attained but lies in the future. Life is hidden with Christ in God, removed from the view of men, and it cannot be tangibly exhibited. Rather it is received by faith as an eschatological gift and is retained by setting the mind on what is above.

J. B. Lightfoot, in his Saint Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon wrote,
κέκρυπται] ‘is hidden, is buried out of sight, to the world.’ The Apostle’s argument is this: ‘When you sank under the baptismal water, you disappeared for ever to the world. You rose again, it is true, but you rose only to God. The world henceforth knows nothing of your new life, (as a consequence) your new life must know nothing of the world.’

T. K. Abbot, in his A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles to the Ephesians and to the Colossians simply wrote,
Κέκρυπται. “Neque Christum neque Christianos novit numdus; ac ne Christiani quidem plane seipos,” Bengel.

Karl Braune, in his The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians (translated from the German) wrote,
“And” adds to the negative side, the having died, the positive side, “your life,” which however is “hid.” The perfect (Κέκρυπται) denotes the continued relation, the verb itself marks the state of the existent life as still hidden, of course from the world, from men, from themselves also (1 Jno. iii. 2; “it doeth not yet appear”): the coherence of the life of Christians is denoted by “with Christ,” the inherence by “in God” (MEYER).



Thank you, Jesus!
This thread has been something of a disappointment to me. While I believe DeaconDean was wrong in his original entry in that, once we are saved, we are Christians (not righteous, but imputed by God with His righteousness), and we have the Holy Spirit indwelling within each of us from that instant until our deaths.

But PrincetonGuy, you took this discussion way too far. Your indictment of the Southern Baptist mentality went over the top and spilled right into the sewers of hatred, whether you intended that result or not. I do not believe that any southern baptist church did any of the things you have acused it of, but that is really besides the point. Individuals who claim they adhere to the southern baptist thought process did all sorts of evil things, and some of them even did those things in the "name of god". That our God would be repulsed by such activity, there can be no doubt. But, please do not accuse all for the actions of a minority few. My ancestors lived in the mountains of NC, near Ashville, and they all fought for the North during the war. Oh, and they were southern baptists, too.

Matthan

[Seeker of the Truth]

Quite true, but you are being just a tad myoptic here. The Holy Spirit did cause Paul to write the epistle to the Romans. But, the Holy Spirit also knew the importance of the epistle to the Romans, and the extent of that importance for all persons who would one day want to learn more about Jesus and His life, death, and resurrection. The Holy Spirit was in total control of every writer in the Bible, causing them to write what they wrote, and to address it to the specific groups they were writing to, and to include all of the specific words that each epistle and Godpel contains, in the specific order they appear.

Only actual prophecies? The verse clearly says "all Scripture", not any particular part or parts. Do you think God did not know the eventual importance of the epistle to the Galatians? Or of the two letters to Timothy? What I am trying to say is that He did know the importance of everything contained in Scripture, and specifically caused it to be the way it is because He did know how important it would be, not just to the person or congregation it was addressed to, but to all persons in all times.

And do not forget that the Holy Spirit's involvement with the Bible did not end with the death of John, the last of the apostles. He was also there in full force when the various writings were brought together, and when certain things were omitted while others were accepted into the canon that we call the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided the entire process. Why, He even guided the translaters of the Bible that King James sent out. God was in control then, just as He is in control now. And, just as He alone will always be in control.

Matthan
okie doke, I agree. My thoughts just came out wrong ;)

[PrincetonGuy]

This thread has been something of a disappointment to me. While I believe DeaconDean was wrong in his original entry in that, once we are saved, we are Christians (not righteous, but imputed by God with His righteousness), and we have the Holy Spirit indwelling within each of us from that instant until our deaths.

But PrincetonGuy, you took this discussion way too far. Your indictment of the Southern Baptist mentality went over the top and spilled right into the sewers of hatred, whether you intended that result or not. I do not believe that any southern baptist church did any of the things you have acused it of, but that is really besides the point. Individuals who claim they adhere to the southern baptist thought process did all sorts of evil things, and some of them even did those things in the "name of god". That our God would be repulsed by such activity, there can be no doubt. But, please do not accuse all for the actions of a minority few. My ancestors lived in the mountains of NC, near Ashville, and they all fought for the North during the war. Oh, and they were southern baptists, too.

Matthan

I accused no one of anything, nor did I name anyone or any group. By using the English past tense (never) rather than the English present perfect tense (has never) I attempted to make it expressly clear that I was writing of historical events exclusively of the past and severed from the present. By listing first a very famous quote from a Baptist pastor in the southern part of the United States who was not a member of the SBC I intended to make it explicitly clear that I was referring not to the SBC but to individual Baptist persons living in the southern part of the United States. But even with all of my care in the use of English grammar and the history of the southern part of the United States my point was apparently entirely missed by some. That point was, however, explicitly made in the conclusion that I stated based upon the historical data,

“But I do not interpret the Bible in the manner that I do because I am a “Northern Baptist” or any other kind of Baptist; I am a Baptist because of the way that I interpret the Bible.”

In order to understand my post, it is essential that it be carefully read as a reply to the word choices used by DeaconDean in the post that I was replying to. I hold no animosity toward the SBC or any other group of Baptists in the southern portion of the United States. Indeed, one of my closest friends both before and after my conversion to the Christian faith was a member of the SBC. However, the doctrine that I have been refuting is a very modern doctrine concocted by men who have taken a few words and phrases entirely out of context and consequently radically misinterpreted them to teach a doctrine that is not only extremely dangerous, but which is an assault upon the holiness and righteousness of God, a doctrine that is disproved by literally hundreds of passages throughout the New Testament.

[FreeinChrist]

Yes, this is largely in the past and I did not imply in my post that DeaconDean shares any of those views. And, of course, many Southern Baptists today would rather die an agonizing death than believe what DeaconDean has been saying about God in this thread. It is truly a tragedy that a Christian would need to waste his time refuting a doctrine that makes a mockery of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men.

That is not true!!

Many Southern Baptists believe in imputed righteousness!
From Ray Ortlund, Jr. speaking at the Southern Baptist Founders Conference in 2006:
You have kindly invited me to speak on justification, and I’m guessing that you
mean by justification what I mean by it – justification by grace alone through faith alone
in Christ alone apart from works. Justification through the righteousness of Christ
imputed to us and our sin laid on him at the cross. Forensic justification as an objective
judgment by God. Non-improvable justification irrespective of sanctification. The view
of justification that makes me say, “The Protestant reformation was a pretty good idea.” I
think we’re talking about that kind of justification. We are not talking about the
justification taught in the Catechism of the Roman church, which reads, “Justification
includes the remission of sins, sanctification and the renewal of the inner man.” We are
not talking about a redefinition of faith that prompts one commentator to assert,
“Justification, at the last, will be on the basis of performance, not possession.” But what
we’re talking about is the classical Reformation understanding of justification, which, as
Luther said, is “the chief article of Christian doctrine,” Calvin said it is “the main hinge
on which religion turns,” Turretin said it is “the principal rampart of the Christian
religion.” The Westminster Larger Catechism asks, “What is justification? Justification
is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth
and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight, not for anything wrought in them or
done by them but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God
imputed to them, and received by faith alone.”
http://www.christpres.org/pdf/Ortlund_IncarnationJustification.pdf (http://www.christpres.org/pdf/Ortlund_IncarnationJustification.pdf).

Imputed righteousness is the historical belief of Baptists:
From the 1689 London Baptist confession:
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc11.html
Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+3:24) Romans 8:30; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+8:30)Romans 4:5-8; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+4:5-8)Ephesians 1:7; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Ephesians+1:7)1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=1Corinthians+1:30-31)Romans 5:17-19; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+5:17-19)Philippians 3:8, 9; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Philippians+3:8-9)Ephesians 2:8-10; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Ephesians+2:8-10)John 1:12; (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=John+1:12)Romans 5:17 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NASB&passage=Romans+5:17) )

[FreeinChrist]

So, here's an honest question:

When we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and do the will of our Heavenly Father (basically, we become "saved") are we Christians in spirit or Jews in spirit?

Romans 2:28 - 29

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Context is important when interpreting scripture. I do not believe this passage is addressing the church at all - but is part of a larger discussion by Paul of false security. The false security referred to here is that many Jews placed faith in their physical circumcism (a symbol of His covenant) and that they were Jews via birth. Paul is making clear that was obedience to the Law that was important.


Those who are in Christ are neither Jew or Gentile.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

As followers of Christ, we are Christians.

[PrincetonGuy]

That is not true!!

Many Southern Baptists beleive in imputed righteousness!
From Ray Ortlund, Jr. speaking at the Southern Baptist Founders Conference in 2006:
You have kindly invited me to speak on justification, and I’m guessing that you
mean by justification what I mean by it – justification by grace alone through faith alone
in Christ alone apart from works. Justification through the righteousness of Christ
imputed to us and our sin laid on him at the cross. Forensic justification as an objective
judgment by God. Non-improvable justification irrespective of sanctification. The view
of justification that makes me say, “The Protestant reformation was a pretty good idea.” I
think we’re talking about that kind of justification. We are not talking about the
justification taught in the Catechism of the Roman church, which reads, “Justification
includes the remission of sins, sanctification and the renewal of the inner man.” We are
not talking about a redefinition of faith that prompts one commentator to assert,
“Justification, at the last, will be on the basis of performance, not possession.” But what
we’re talking about is the classical Reformation understanding of justification, which, as
Luther said, is “the chief article of Christian doctrine,” Calvin said it is “the main hinge
on which religion turns,” Turretin said it is “the principal rampart of the Christian
religion.” The Westminster Larger Catechism asks, “What is justification? Justification
is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth
and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight, not for anything wrought in them or
done by them but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God
imputed to them, and received by faith alone.”
http://www.christpres.org/pdf/Ortlund_IncarnationJustification.pdf (http://www.christpres.org/pdf/Ortlund_IncarnationJustification.pdf).

Have you carefully read all of the posts in this thread?

I did not write that “all Southern Baptists today would….” I wrote “many Southern Baptists today would rather die an agonizing death than believe what DeaconDean has been saying about God in this thread.” That is absolutely true! And that comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness which I believe in and am defending in this thread. I do not, however, believe in the twisted, distorted 20th century doctrine that has been presented in this thread by DeaconDean which makes a mockery of the Biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness and which I have proved from Scripture is a false doctrine.

I do not agree with Ray Ortlund, Jr., and neither do the very large majority of Baptists, but in this thread I am not arguing against anything that he taught in the quote that you provided. Therefore your quote from Ray Ortlund, Jr. is irrelevant to this thread.

It is also important to note that Ray Ortlund, Jr., the son of a very well known Congregational Minister, is not a Southern Baptist; indeed, he is not a Baptist at all—he is a Presbyterian pastor who has not yet learned the concept of God’s grace as it is taught in the New Testament. Neither has he yet learned the concept of faith as it is taught in the New Testament. None of these things, however, are relevant to the discussion in this thread.

[Jessica01]

And yet I'm wrong?!?

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.-Gal 3:27 (KJV)

You mean to say that I haven't had Christ's righteousness imputed to me and therefore when God looks at me He doesn't see Christ's righteousness, but me only?

John Gill said:

"...they are clothed and covered with by the Son, and is put upon them and applied unto them by the Spirit; and which faith receiving puts off its own rags of righteousness, and makes use of this as its proper dress to appear in before the most High;"

So I haven't been dressed in His righteousness? That I have already:

"put him on as the Lord their righteousness; his righteousness is compared to a garment, is called the best robe, the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet; this is imputed to the elect of God by the Father,"

I haven't put on the Lord? I haven't been already dressed in His garments? I haven't been given "the best robe?" I haven't been dressed in His wedding garment? I'm not already wearing "fine linen, clean and white, the robe of righteousness?" I'm not already clothed in His garment: "down to the feet?"



I have "put on Christ" and I know that the Bible says that because I did:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2 Cor. 5:17

I'm a new creature, born of the King, a Son, heir to the throne, my old former self is gone. And I have put on His righteousness, been given the best robe, clothed in His wedding garment down to my toes, I'm dressed in Christ.

Keith Davis and Bob Jones say:

"The Lord is saying that He has stripped us in order to clothe us with Himself. We are not going to be clothed with strikingly beautiful garments to the natural eye, rather it will be with a spirit of humility according to I Peter 5:5. These garments will only be beautiful to the spiritual eye and to the Lord. Being clothed in a spirit of humility will produce meekness or a teachable spirit capable of change into the very image of Christ. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (Romans 13:14) And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. (Colossians 3:14) The most important teaching from these scriptures is that we clothe ourselves in love. Through divine love we will then begin to see the bond of unity that will produce the anointing. If we clothe ourselves with the anointing then we will make no provision for the flesh and its lusts.
Ultimately, we are being stripped in order to be prepared to inherit the Promises;
Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:24-29)
That which we have actually been stripping off is the old unregenerate nature. The base nature that was born in the Garden of Eden with the fall of man must perish as we are crucified with Christ, and are raised again to live according to Christ through His anointing and His divine character. We are then being molded into His image according to the true knowledge of Christ given to us through His Word. For it is through the true knowledge of Christ that we receive the precious and magnificent promises by which we become partakers of His divine nature. (II Peter 1:4)" Under this new created state all prejudices and distinctions of man vanish. We become one in Christ according to one Spirit through one anointing. We are to be “galvanized” with Christ. An iron chain is a very powerful tool, however it is also greatly prone to corruption and rust. When the iron chain links have been galvanized they are coated with a layer of zinc which is non-corruptible. The chain links then become much more powerful because they are not subject to the corruption of rust and will endure even under the most harsh conditions such as salt water. Our spirits are to be galvanized with Christ and our flesh is to be coated with the anointing. Corruption will then be taking on the incorruptible nature.

http://kbproweb.com/gel/spirituality/putonchrist.shtml (oops, almost forgot that)

So I haven't "put on Christ?"

And I'm wrong?!?

Opinins vary, you have yours, I have mine.

May God bless you in your convictions.

God Bless

Till all are one.
I would add a bit to this:

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2Cor.5:21 ).