[OPEN]A Thought From A Lurker

[bwstone]

I have been lurkin for a while, and yes I am a member of a Restoration Movement Church, and I have had a thought I would like to throw out to the RM forum. I would like to post a little background first so please bear with me.

There is a bit of a war going on right now in the support forums here. There is a group of people who, much like Stone and Campbell in a way, see the icons here as dividing the body of Christ. Staff has also become the arbiters of who can and cannot wear a Christian icon and enforce this with a heavy hand. As members of RM churches we are all familiar with the phrase "no creed but Christ" and yet we spend a good deal of time here in this forum seperating ourselves from the rest of the Christians and from the non-Christians here at CF. I do not see how this aligns with the philosophies that RM churches tend to follow.

Now I am not asking anyone to drop their icons. God forbid we identify ourselves as anything not Christian (Christians only but not the only Christians and all..) but we could do something here in this forum that would start to wipe away some of the divisions. It is my understanding that posting [OPEN] (as I have done) in a thread title opens the thread up to those who have been denied a Christian icon or who have chosen otherwise. I think that if we took care and started all of our threads here in this forum with that tag we could carry on the vision of Stone and Campbell and show those outside of the supposedly Christian Only forums that not all of seek division and not all of us are judgemental and so on.

I think this idea has merit and I would ask my RM brethren to paryerfully consider this proposition.

Thank you for reading through a rather rambling post by a lurker and considering my words. May God bless and keep each and every one of you. And I do hope that my lurking will become less and less and my posting more and more.

[Auntie]

great post! :wave: :thumbsup: :hug:

[constance]

I have insisted since the forum was created that the RM movement should not have a dedicated icon. We instead use Christian, Non-Denom, or Protestant. While I prefer the Christian icon (obviously), I don't feel there is any issue with using Non-Denom or Protestant. I just feel it's completely anti-RM to have a RM icon.

[fishon]

bwstone,
I don't think the icons are the "real" problems that cause separation in the forums. It is the differences in our opinions that cause the biggest problems.

You can drop your icon and never identify yourself as part of the "Restoration Movement," but you get into a discussion with a Baptist who has dropped their icon and you will still have separation.

Get in a discussion with a Catholic who has dropped their icon, and talk about Mary, and see how fast the converstation deterates.

I could go on, but you get the point.

It is not an icon or even a name that divides; it is our stand on the Bible only that causes division.

On a "Pastor" forum I belong to, I have been told that I am NOT saved because I am a Church of Christ "Instrumental" pastor. On that same forum, I was defended by several others for that statement, but then at a later time I was told I was NOT saved, by some of the same fellows because I did not believe in "election."

Name, Icon, Believe--it matters not. We will always have it--Alexander Campbell learned that the hard way.

I am sorry that I sound so disagreeable. I do not mean to be. Unity WILL come -- HEAVEN. I'll see you there.
fishon

[HeyHomie]

I don't mind the icons at all. One should be proud of their congregation's heritage, not ashamed of it.

I don't believe that denominations are bad. There will always be people who state the platitude that "denominations divide the church." I disagree. It's people within those denominations that divide the church. If your attitude is that your church is right, and others are wrong, and so you'll only fellowship with those within your denomination, that's wrong. But if you give me freedom to worship how I want to on Sunday morning, and I give you freedom to do the same, where is the division?

[bwstone]

My post was less about icons than about the way that things are done by my RM brethren. I am obviously not dropping my Christian icon. I was suggesting that we start threads in the forum with the [OPEN] tag so that none are excluded from posting here. Of course we will always have division I don't think one could debate successfully that we will not. However, if one has studied the history of our movement, we know that Barton Stone would likely have been excluded from posting here in the RM forum at least for a time (depending on whose account you have studied). My thought was that in order to promote unity and not exclude those whose doctrines may be a little different than our own that we use the [OPEN] tag to allow those who are barred from posting in the CO sections to post in the forum.

I also think that the argument "there will always be division so we should go along with it" is a bad one. There will always be sin but we should certainly fight against it. There will always be poverty be we should never stop giving to the poor. Division may be an unchanging fact but that does not stop us from attempting to combat it, to lessen its affects, to try and unify with those we can.

[fishon]

bwstone,
Sorry that I misunderstood, at least, part of your post.

Just because I or most others say there will always be division does not mean we are against trying to unite with those of different opinions, in the faith.

Jesus says, "The poor will be with you always." Was he making a bad arguement? He was just stating a fact. Then he taught us, in spite of the poor being with you always, help those you can.

A question? What do you mean when you say unity? Define it a little.
fishon

[bwstone]

Unity can be defined in many ways. One can be unified with his wife and still argue with her. One can be unified in deed and action with a Catholic brother and still disagree on doctrinal points. One can be unified in fellowship (I am CC) with a non-instrumental brother in deed and action without having to agree on the use of instruments in worship.

The idea of making the requirement for fellowship only the basic requirements for salvation is a good one. Barton Stone would be cast out of this very forum here at CF and yet I am certain I will see him in Heaven. He and Campbell disagreed on the very idea of the Trinity and yet they maintained fellowship.

My suggestion is that, by using the [OPEN] tag that we open this forum to the very idea of fellowship espoused by Stone and Campbell. Do any of you think they would have retreated to a closed forum where fellowship was restricted based on what church one chose to attend? It seems to me that it goes against the very precepts the movement to which we claim to belong was founded! I am suggesting that by using the [OPEN] tags that we fellowship with those, saved and unsaved, that CF has disallowed entry in the "Christian Only" sections by using a creed that would not be used in any one of our churches. That we, those that can agree with the creed, open our arms and our little home here on CF to those who have been drummed out of fellowship by one of the very things both Stone and Campbell were against and that thing is a creed. I am suggesting that we return to the most basic principles of the RM and offer unity to those that are not offered unity by the powers that be here at CF.

[fishon]

bwstone,
I guess I just see the individual, denominational forums as sort of like a denominational magizine. Most of them do NOT invite writers from other denominations to submit articles.

Sorry, I see it as a non issue in this particular case.
MAKE IT a great day.
fishon

[JDIBe]

I have been lurkin for a while, and yes I am a member of a Restoration Movement Church, and I have had a thought I would like to throw out to the RM forum. I would like to post a little background first so please bear with me.

There is a bit of a war going on right now in the support forums here. There is a group of people who, much like Stone and Campbell in a way, see the icons here as dividing the body of Christ. Staff has also become the arbiters of who can and cannot wear a Christian icon and enforce this with a heavy hand. As members of RM churches we are all familiar with the phrase "no creed but Christ" and yet we spend a good deal of time here in this forum seperating ourselves from the rest of the Christians and from the non-Christians here at CF. I do not see how this aligns with the philosophies that RM churches tend to follow.

Now I am not asking anyone to drop their icons. God forbid we identify ourselves as anything not Christian (Christians only but not the only Christians and all..) but we could do something here in this forum that would start to wipe away some of the divisions. It is my understanding that posting [OPEN] (as I have done) in a thread title opens the thread up to those who have been denied a Christian icon or who have chosen otherwise. I think that if we took care and started all of our threads here in this forum with that tag we could carry on the vision of Stone and Campbell and show those outside of the supposedly Christian Only forums that not all of seek division and not all of us are judgemental and so on.

I think this idea has merit and I would ask my RM brethren to paryerfully consider this proposition.

Thank you for reading through a rather rambling post by a lurker and considering my words. May God bless and keep each and every one of you. And I do hope that my lurking will become less and less and my posting more and more.

I understand your concern, and in theory, I agree with you. In practice however, things can be a little different. I have seen many forums ruined by an outsider who comes in just to stir up trouble and then goes away leaving carnage and destruction in his wake. Many atheists I have encountered are well-meaning, respectful people. However, many I have encountered on the internet are not. They take pleasure (and have admitted as such online) in goading and belittling Christians, not wishing to engage in any meaningful dialogue. When the tenor of a board goes bad, it goes bad quickly and it stays bad until it dies a slow, painful death.

So it seems it's another case of "10% of the people cause 90% of the trouble". The few ruin it for everybody. But it is nice to hear a different POV every once in a while. That's why I like the non-Denom. forum. You get all sorts in there and many different perspectives.

Perhaps the best solution to the problem would be to create a new forum (call it "The Courtyard" or something...) open to all for a free exchange of ideas. Then you get the best of both worlds.

All that being said, I do welcome and appreciate the visitors we have had and continue to have here. Feel free to stop in and say "hi" anytime. :wave:

(BTW, I hear Stone got rejected because he didn't provide a valid email address...)