The End Times and the Law

[reddogs]

The Bible in Revelation describes the last great conflict between Christ and Satan and this conflict is a conflict of authority. In Revelation 12 it tells us that the dragon would make war on those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17). These are two issues that the Evil one will target in particular in the End Times, namely: “The commandments of God” and “The testimony of Jesus Christ.”

In Revelation 11:19 we read:
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament. And there were lightnings, and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail. Revelation 11:19

The prophet John is alerting us to the fact that the issues in the last days will canter around the law of God. The Evil one is going to challenge the authority of the Creator and try and establish his own sign of authority. Revelation 13 identifies who the powers will be that would be involved in the final challenge to God’s authority as embodied in His Law. The commandments of God, and thus the government of God, are targets of the ire of Satan, and the Evil on will do everything in his power to destroy the Commandments of God in the final conflict between good and evil.

...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation: and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

So we see that the Evil one will strive to make everyone worship him instead of God and he will do this by attacking the basis of Gods authority, His Law and those who remain faithful to Jesus Christ and the testimonies which point back to God and the Commandments.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Many people have been deceived into thinking that Saturday was only the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed, but by whom? Who has authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, 'Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day', who will dare to say, lets change it, and you may go ahead and work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day, but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead? This is a most important question which I know not how you can answer. If you are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a matter as the observance of one day in seven as a holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that which He has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the ten commandments; you believe the other nine are still binding; who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principle, if you really follow the Bible and the Bible only, you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.

Why is the Sabbath commandment so relevant to God’s law, and why is there such importance attached to the keeping of the particular day? The answer lies in the wording of the commandment which contains the seal of God.
The Sabbath commandment is not only the heart of the ten command­ments, but it is the seal of the commandments. Remove it and the commandments have no authority or official seal.

A seal contains three specifications:
- the name of the writer of the law,
- his office, and
- the name of the territory over which he rules.
Only the fourth commandment has these three items:
- Yhwh God (God’s Name)
- Creator (His office, position)
- Heaven and Earth (His territory)

Remove this commandment and any adherent of any religion could subscribe to the other nine. A change in the seal means a change of rulership, it implies a new authority with power to implement laws. Obedience to new laws ratified by the seal of authority entails submission to that authority. This was ever Satan’s aim - to place his authority above that of the throne of God. By claiming authority as lawgiver, and enforcing his seal, in opposition to the seal of God, Satan shifts the position of authority from God to himself. Obedience to his seal (or mark) of authority means subjection to his government in direct opposition to that of God. This is the ultimate apostasy. When mankind submits to this spurious seal and openly confesses it by the proclamation of laws for the maintenance of Sunday, then man would have fully subjected himself to Satan’s reign. Until such laws are enacted, freedom of choice is still possible. The mark of the beast only leads to ultimate separation from God once individuals are forced to choose whom they wish to obey. If they choose to obey God in this issue, then the penalty is persecution. If they choose to obey the earthly authorities, then the penalty is separation from God. All will have to make this choice.

Throughout the Scriptures, the Sabbath of God is treated with the utmost solemnity. And hallow My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God. Ezekiel 20: 20

For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Matthew 15:3.

But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9.

Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up. Matthew 15:13

Choose you this day whom ye will serve. If the Lord be God, follow Him. Joshua 24:15

Sunday worship has no Scriptural authority, and rests solely upon tradition. Protestants have always claimed that the Bible and the Bible alone should be the standard for our religious beliefs. To meet this challenge, the Roman Catholic Church called the Council of Trent in 1545, and proclaimed that tradition stood above Scripture. The archbishop of Reggio, in a speech concerning this issue, maintained that proof for tradition superceding Scriptural authority could be found in the changeover from Sabbath to Sunday.

The Church has changed Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ but by its own authority. Canon and Tradition, by Holtzman.

Protestants who observe Sunday as the day of worship are honoring the mark of Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholics claim:

Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.The Catholic Record

The Church of Rome claims that Sunday is her mark of authority. Moreover, she claims that it is her right to legislate moral issues and that governments should subscribe to her directives. This is not only a right which she claimed for herself during the middle ages, but is a right which she claims for herself today. The official Catechism of the Catholic Church, has this to say on the issue:

The Church, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth. To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls.Moral Life and Magisterium of the Church, 2032, The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

According to this Catechism, moral issues are dictated by the Ten Commandments, but not the Ten Commandments as found in the Bible, but the Ten Commandments as defined by Augustine, the Catholic Church father.

Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments. The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. 2065-2066, The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Not the ten commandments as they occur in the Bible, but as defined by Augustine form the basis for Catholic morality. Since Sunday is also the mark of the Catholic Church’s authority, it follows that this mark is in direct opposition to the declared will of God and that compromise on this issue is thus not possible.

God told His people exactly what blessings they would enjoy should they obey and what curses they would experience if they should disobey. The choice was theirs. God’s law is not designed as a means of punishing the disobedient, but the consequences of disobedience are self-inflicted. God does not ask us to keep His law in order to be saved, but rather the law is given to those who are redeemed to protect them from harm. Obedience to God’s law which Christ points to is an expression of love; it is the means whereby we develop a intimate relationship with Him.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

What Jesus told those early disciples, He is also telling us. We should read the signs of the times which tell us that the second coming of Jesus is nearer than ever before. When we study the prophetic word, we discover where we are in the stream of time. It is later than we think. It is time for us to wake up from our slumber and get ready for the second coming of Jesus.

Those who follow Jesus Christ will obey the Commandments and in the End Times this will be the ultimate test of obedience. It will determine who will remain faithful to the precepts of Christ at all costs and who will fall under the banner of Satan especially in the Last Days as the Evil one will focus on the Law or God's authority. The keeping of the Law and especially the Sabbath of creation is the greatest signal to the world that we believe that God is our Creator and our Redeemer. It is the signal that we acknowledge His authority and His authority alone in our lives, in terms of religious matters.

[Eila]

So we see that the Evil one will strive to make everyone worship him instead of God and he will do this by attacking the basis of Gods authority, His Law and those who remain faithful to Jesus Christ and the testimonies which point back to God and the Commandments.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Revelation 14:12


These commandments are not the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are referred to the ministry of condemnation in 2 Corinthians 3 "7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Also in 1 John the commandments are defined. The man who wrote 1 John also wrote Revelation.

1 John 3 "21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

The commandments in Revelation are not the 10 commandments.


Many people have been deceived into thinking that Saturday was only the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed, but by whom? Who has authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, 'Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day', who will dare to say, lets change it, and you may go ahead and work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day, but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead? This is a most important question which I know not how you can answer. If you are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a matter as the observance of one day in seven as a holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that which He has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the ten commandments; you believe the other nine are still binding; who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principle, if you really follow the Bible and the Bible only, you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.

The Sabbath was a sign of the old covenant and wad given to the Isrealites and not the church.

Exodus 31 " Say to the Israelites, Truly you shall keep My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you [set you apart for Myself ]."

The sign of the new covenant is the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 "45And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles."

The apostles met and decided what regulations should apply to the Gentiles and said in Acts 15 "8 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Notice that keeping the sign of the old covenant is not listed.

The Bible refers to the Sabbath as a feast:

Levitcus 23 "2Say to the Israelites, The set feasts or appointed seasons of the Lord which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, even My set feasts, are these: 3Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation or assembly by summons. You shall do no work on that day; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings."



Do you keep all the feasts Reddogs?



Why is the Sabbath commandment so relevant to God’s law, and why is there such importance attached to the keeping of the particular day? The answer lies in the wording of the commandment which contains the seal of God.

The Sabbath was the sign of the OLD covenant. If you choose to be under the old covenant you can be, but you will always fall short. The Holy Spirit is the seal in the new covenant:

Ephesians 1 "n Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Ephesians 4 " And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

2 Corinthians 1 "1 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. "



Remove this commandment and any adherent of any religion could subscribe to the other nine.

Not according to the new covenant way of love. We are instructed to love with agape love. Agape love is the God-kind of love which goes far beyond the letter of the law. This is only possible when we have Him in us. Other religions can keep the letter of the law, but only those in Christ can keep the new covenant law.




For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

You do realize that this means you should be keeping the entire law not just the 10 commandments. Read the texts that follow and you will see commands from the Book of the Law as well as the 10 commandments. Either it is all fulfilled in Jesus or you keep it all.



Protestants who observe Sunday as the day of worship are honoring the mark of Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholics claim:

Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.The Catholic Record

Do you acknowledge the authority of the Catholic church when you go to vespers?





God told His people exactly what blessings they would enjoy should they obey and what curses they would experience if they should disobey. The choice was theirs. God’s law is not designed as a means of punishing the disobedient, but the consequences of disobedience are self-inflicted. God does not ask us to keep His law in order to be saved, but rather the law is given to those who are redeemed to protect them from harm. Obedience to God’s law which Christ points to is an expression of love; it is the means whereby we develop a intimate relationship with Him.

We have been redeemed from the curse of the law!!

Galatians 3 " Christ purchased our freedom [redeeming us] from the curse (doom) of the Law [and its condemnation] by [Himself] becoming a curse for us, for it is written [in the Scriptures], Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (is crucified);"

We have died to the commands in the law. Now we are free to live for Him:

Galatians 2 " For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ's death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law's demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God."

[reddogs]

As I said, you are not following the word of God as the words are clear that these are Gods Law, His Commandments that Jesus points to and the truth is right in front of you but you reject it. It is not the Holy Spirit but a deceiving spirit that is not of God that you are following and this false spirit is not allowing you to discern truth and tells you a lie so you continue to hold unto iniquity and feel no need to repent from sin or be cleansed from it.

[Eila]

As I said, you are not following the word of God as the words are clear that these are Gods Law, His Commandments that Jesus points to and the truth is right in front of you but you reject it. It is not the Holy Spirit but a deceiving spirit that is not of God that you are following and this false spirit is not allowing you to discern truth and tells you a lie so you continue to hold unto iniquity and feel no need to repent from sin or be cleansed from it.

You will have to point me to the text that says God's Law = only the 10 commandments.

It is interesting that you point out that I am following a deceiving spirit. Most of my post was quoting the Bible.

Where do you get the idea that I feel no need to repent from sin?

Can you tell me how you don't honor the authority of the Catholic church when you go to vespers?

[reddogs]

God's Law, as I said before, is the embodiment of His love. He showed His love at creation in many ways including His gift of the Sabbath and showed His love Himself to Adam in the Garden of Eden, then after he sinned telling him the plan of redemption and He wrote out the core understanding of how to love God and your fellowman in stone with His own hand and His Son reaffirmed it. Jesus wants to bring you to Him with His love and the Law is part of His love, it defines what Jesus and the Father want for us, love God and love our fellowman.

The devil also knows the bible and can present himself as a" angel of light' as many will be deceived by his minions and false spirit which denies the basis of Gods love....

[freeindeed2]

As I said, you are not following the word of God as the words are clear that these are Gods Law, His Commandments that Jesus points to and the truth is right in front of you but you reject it. It is not the Holy Spirit but a deceiving spirit that is not of God that you are following and this false spirit is not allowing you to discern truth and tells you a lie so you continue to hold unto iniquity and feel no need to repent from sin or be cleansed from it.
Jesus is right in front of you asking you to trust him to cleanse you from all your sin, and instead you embrace the law which will only condemn you.

The law pointed to Jesus, not the other way around! Jesus IS the truth!

And Eila's post was full of Scripture that you have not responded to. You accuse her of following a 'false spirit' by your own estimation, which (thankfully!) doesn't make you correct just because you said it. If anything, it is those who still attempt to live under the old covenant/10 commandments that are not following the Spirit of God, rather they are trying to be justified by how they keep the old covenant. What they do not realize is that it will only condemn them as they do not keep it (and even if they did, it doesn't transform their sin nature they were born with!).

[Adventtruth]

God's Law, as I said before, is the embodiment of His love.

Not so redd...God is infinitley Loving to His Son who is the embodiment of His love.

He showed His love at creation in many ways including His gift of the Sabbath and showed His love Himself to Adam in the Garden of Eden,

Now you have no bible text for that, do you redd

then after he sinned telling him the plan of redemption and He wrote out the core understanding of how to love God and your fellowman in stone with His own hand and His Son reaffirmed it. Jesus wants to bring you to Him with His love and the Law is part of His love, it defines what Jesus and the Father want for us, love God and love our fellowman.

But redd...does the law bring us to Jesus and after that we have no need for the law, correct?

AT:)

[reddogs]

AT,

I personally feel at perfection the law has no claim on us, if we walk with God like Enoch then we are fine. But Jesus Christ will decide if we are like Enoch at the second coming, that is where faith comes in. We cannot judge ourselves.

[Eila]

AT,

I personally feel at perfection the law has no claim on us, if we walk with God like Enoch then we are fine. But Jesus Christ will decide if we are like Enoch at the second coming, that is where faith comes in. We cannot judge ourselves.

What happens if you die right now and are not like Enoch yet?

[reddogs]

If you repent from sin and accept grace and let the Holy Spirit do its work then we have to put our faith in Jesus. But we still cannot judge ourselves, that is up to Christ.


I think we are coming closer to a understanding, I have always felt if we all just let the Holy Spirit lead us with the wisdom of God instead of trying to use the 'wisdom of man', we will be alright.

[Sleaker]

As I said, you are not following the word of God as the words are clear that these are Gods Law, His Commandments that Jesus points to and the truth is right in front of you but you reject it. It is not the Holy Spirit but a deceiving spirit that is not of God that you are following and this false spirit is not allowing you to discern truth and tells you a lie so you continue to hold unto iniquity and feel no need to repent from sin or be cleansed from it.


Romans 2:24-29

If the Commandments (The Law) and Freedom in the spirit (The Law of Christ) are the same, why then does Paul make a distinction here:

Romans 8:1-10


Think about it, Law will attempt to tell us when we need to worship, it will set a day, a time, an hour. Saying that Saturday is the appropriate day for Worship since it is the real Sabbath, or that Sunday is because it is the new Sabbath. but Christ reminded us of the true law which says:

Mark 12:30-31


Back to what Romans 8 was saying, since we are free to the law of Sin and death, that is regulations, we are able to freely worship God at all times. It is no longer appointed a time to worship God.

John 4:20-24

I suggest again that it's not about a specific day, time, hour, place, or building. It's about Worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth as he desires you to do. That means it's an outpouring of your life. As you Love God you fulfill the Law.

In 1 Corinthians Paul talks about preaching to different people groups, and we see that he desires to become what the people are, taking on their laws so that he may preach the love of Christ to all, why would he talk about taking on the Law of a Jew if Christians were still bound to the same laws as the Jews? It just doesn't make any sense.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

Again here there is still a distinction between which law he is under, he is Under the Law of Christ no matter what other laws he puts on or takes off. What is the law of Christ? To love the Lord and your neighbor.

Romans 13:8-10

Love fulfills the law. There is no other law that we are bound to but to Love.

[freeindeed2]

If you repent from sin and accept grace and let the Holy Spirit do its work then we have to put our faith in Jesus. But we still cannot judge ourselves, that is up to Christ.
Maybe I'm hearing wrong, but it sound like it's all about you.

YOU repent...
YOU accept...
YOU let...
YOU put...

Do you believe that these are all things YOU do out of the 'goodness' of your own heart? Or are these the result of the Holy Spirit influencing your heart and leading you to them?

I think we are coming closer to a understanding, I have always felt if we all just let the Holy Spirit lead us with the wisdom of God instead of trying to use the 'wisdom of man', we will be alright.
ABSOLUTELY! We can't trust ourselves (our hearts are deceitful), but we can trust God who lives in us. AMEN!

[Sleaker]

ABSOLUTELY! We can't trust ourselves (our hearts are deceitful), but we can trust God who lives in us. AMEN!

Wait a minute, if God gives you wisdom, or discernment, is it still God's? God gave Solomon Wisdom right? Who's wisdom was it? Isn't it attributed to Solomon as his wisdom?

I think we get a little too down on ourselves, we are redeemed in Christ, a new creation created for the good works that God has set before us. We are no longer evil or unclean. If God has changed our hearts, why can't we trust them?

[freeindeed2]

Wait a minute, if God gives you wisdom, or discernment, is it still God's? God gave Solomon Wisdom right? Who's wisdom was it? Isn't it attributed to Solomon as his wisdom?
Hey sleaker. I don't think I've posted with you before. Nice to meet you.

God may have given Solomon wisdom, but it's still God's wisdom. Didn't God create ALL things. Do we have 'ownership rights' over any of it? I may say this is 'my' life, but it is He who gave it to me and sustains it, even my next breath.

I think we get a little too down on ourselves, we are redeemed in Christ, a new creation created for the good works that God has set before us. We are no longer evil or unclean. If God has changed our hearts, why can't we trust them?
I hear what you're saying, but I'd still have to say that the ONLY good in me is Jesus. I trust in Jesus, not my own heart (because it is still encased in 'fallen, sinful, human flesh'.

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jer 17:9

"For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.” Mark 7:21-23

Just my two cents.:D

[Sleaker]

Hey sleaker. I don't think I've posted with you before. Nice to meet you.

God may have given Solomon wisdom, but it's still God's wisdom. Didn't God create ALL things. Do we have 'ownership rights' over any of it? I may say this is 'my' life, but it is He who gave it to me and sustains it, even my next breath.


I hear what you're saying, but I'd still have to say that the ONLY good in me is Jesus. I trust in Jesus, not my own heart (because it is still encased in 'fallen, sinful, human flesh'.

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jer 17:9

"For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.” Mark 7:21-23

Just my two cents.:D

I think it's more based on where you have put your life:

Matthew 12:35
Luke 6:45

I like the way it says it in Luke, good things flow out of the man who has the good heart. If we take ownership for the evil we do, why can we not take ownership for the good we do?

1 Corinthians 9:1-3

Paul doesn't call the people the Lord's work, no he calls the people in Corinth his own work. He says they are his, he takes ownership for the seed that he has sown. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking ownership for what you do in obedience to God. If we are a new creation in Christ then we have the capability to do good, sure it's through the Holy Spirit, but we are still willing it into action. It is still our choice. Look at what Paul says elsewhere:

Philippians 3:16-17

He knows he is following the Lord and knows that his intentions are good, and in it he tells others to follow his example as he follows Christ.

As for ownership, why yes, God gives ownership of things all the time! Maybe we like to refer to it as stewardship in Christian circles but whatever way you look at it God gives ownership of things to different people. In the parable of the Talents, were not the talents given to the people to do with. In the Garden was not Adam given dominion over the earth? And isn't that why Satan was able to steal that dominion? I think we don't allow ourselves to believe we can own anything because we keep listening to Satan telling us we aren't good enough or aren't holy enough to be their, and that God would never trust our evil selves.. Does that make any sense?

[Cribstyl]

......

[Sleaker]

I think they are valid statements, considering in it's current state the church doesn't understand obedience to God, or what the Testimony of Christ is. Not to be demeaning, but I think we are accepting a lot of Satan's lies as truths, atleast that's what I've seen in the different congregations I've been to.

I think we need to remember that ever since Pentacost the church has been in the end times, so John's Revelation is just as much a reality to us as it would have been to Christian's in the first century.

[Cribstyl]

......

[reddogs]

So if I fall in 'love' with your wife and commit adultery, thats OK since their "There is no other law that we are bound to but to love...". No sin has been committed according to your wisdom of 'man'.

I dont think that is correct on any level......

The correct interpretation is "As you Love God you fulfill the Law by keeping His commandments" with the Holy Spirit bringing you to that point......


John 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=21&version=9&context=verse)
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

John 14:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoevershall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Sleaker]

John's Revalation is most likely referring to the commandments that Christ has set before us in the Gospels. Yes the Law is still in place if you desire to attempt to follow it, but Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans that you can either try and Fulfill God's Law of your own will, or accept the mercy and grace that Christ has given and take on Christ's Law which is Love. see the difference is that the Old testament Law tells us what we cannot do, even the Sabbath which should not be distinguished between any of the other laws, if you want to pick on the Sabbath then you should start picking on no adultery, or not eating pork... There's no picking and choosing which laws are still in effect, even into today. The difference we see in Romans is that if we love we are fulfilling all the law, Jesus even said this in the Gospels. That's what is referred to as the Law of Christ, for this Law of Love is not based in what we cannot do, but rather what we should do.

Now obedience is still an issue, look at Israel in the desert, God swore in his wrath that the children would not enter into his rest, and they wandered for 40 years. Hebrews and 1 Corinthians 10 warn us about this and give us some good examples. But the obedience is following this new Law of love, not to following the Old Testament commandments.

[Eila]

So if I fall in 'love' with your wife and commit adultery, thats OK since their "There is no other law that we are bound to but to love...". No sin has been committed according to your wisdom of 'man'.

I dont think that is correct on any level......

Reddogs,

If you love your neighbor you won't commit adultery with his wife. If you love your neighbor you won't even lust after his wife.

This love that we are commanded is agape love - the God-kind of love, not the eros or philo love.

[Sleaker]

"So if I fall in 'love' with your wife and commit adultery, thats OK since their "There is no other law that we are bound to but to love...". No sin has been committed according to your wisdom of 'man'.

I dont think that is correct on any level......"


Ahh, but Love would not commit adultery against a neighbors wife, this is why it is the Fulfillment of the Law. When you say, 'fall in love' what you really mean is: You let yourself be decieved by your flesh (See --> Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh and Pride of life). For Love is not something you fall into, Love is action it's a verb, it's not something you feel. So this whole idea of 'falling in love' is quite honestly lust with a little bow on it to make it appealing.

[Cribstyl]

,,,,,,,,,,,,

[reddogs]

That is why I say, you cannot trust the "wisdom of man" as it can lead you astray, God's Law is from His wisdom and it leads us in the right way. I've seen many christians doing a "Fulfillment of the Law" and falling, (Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, etc....) because they are not following what God has set forth, just a tag line that means nothing without God's definition of sin. You have to be careful of 'empty words' that hide sin and iniqiuty and allow the Evil one to lead you astray...........

[Sleaker]

reddogs:

What about this verse?

Romans 7:1-8

[Sleaker]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.

[Cribstyl]

.....

[reddogs]

You are getting there, the new Law of love lets Christ grace, the Holy Spirit do the work, the problem is every "Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker" in town wants to say they have the new Law of love and still do every sin possible.....

So the 'new Law of Love' rests on Gods Law of love as they are one and the same and still has the same claims until you are free from sin. When you can "walk" in harmony with God as Enoch did then you have no issue with the law.

[Sleaker]

mm, no no. I have no issue with the Law because I have been given grace. I'm not bound to it as Romans 7 so clearly illustrates. Just because I don't follow God's law 100% of the time does not mean I am any less a son of God. But the reality is that since I am saved it is completely possible for me to never sin again, and for that matter it is completely possible for anyone to never sin again once they come to Christ.

As far as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker, Paul in Romans also clearly states "Shall we then go on sinning so that grace may abound much more? No!" This kind of thinking only leads to ruin and shows that you truly don't know Christ or his ways. I think the problem you are addressing is what Bonhoeffer refers to as Cheap grace, and how the church has lived too long just doling out grace to anyone saying, oh you're free from sin, without actually understanding that grace is meaningless without mercy first. To come to Christ one must repent, that is not 'confess sins', but rather Total Surrender to God. As John preached in the Gospels, "be baptised for the remission of sins." So it's surrender your life to God, and be baptized for the removal of your sins.

[reddogs]

Yes, you can put it that way as "cheap grace", which is a false spirit giving a lie to what Christ gives us. "Cheap grace", which says you dont have to confess (admit what the law has shown you as sin) and repent from sin and can hold on to it.

Matthew 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=3&verse=6&version=9&context=verse)
And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The law helps you to identify what is sin so you can confess it and be forgiven and be cleansed, but the devil can still cause us to fall as he did Adam, and that is what you have to recognize or you fall into the other of the devil's traps "once saved always saved..."

[Jon0388g]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.

Amen.

Jon

[freeindeed2]

Sorry, just a little sidenote again, I'm not suggesting that the Law is bad, or wrong. Or that it's bad to still try and keep it. I'm just saying that we are no longer bound to the Law, but rather that we have been given a new Law of love which requires much more than Abstinence from a certain thing. The new law requires us to give our whole lives over to Christ, and in all reality is completely impossible to live in without the Spirit.
Absolutely! It's a 'higher' law than the 'schoolmaster 10' that were given to Israel.

[Jimlarmore]

Absolutely! It's a 'higher' law than the 'schoolmaster 10' that were given to Israel.

There is no "school master 10" aspect to God's law of liberty. The first four involve our devotion to God and the last six involve the way we are to relate to our fellow man. As a matter of fact the ten commandments reflect the very love of Christ Himself and we can see Christ in this royal law. It's true that we are obligated to a life that goes beyond the ten but the ten are a standard and frame work for all of the other and are seated in the love of God. God is love and these laws are a reflection of Him.


God Bles
Jim Larmore

[freeindeed2]

There is no "school master 10" aspect to God's law of liberty. The first four involve our devotion to God and the last six involve the way we are to relate to our fellow man.
Actually, I agree to an extent. It was a 'schoolmaster 613' laws. But breaking one of the 10 was breaking the old covenant, and we are no longer under the old covenant/10 commandments/613 laws. We are no longer under the 'schoolmaster'.

As a matter of fact the ten commandments reflect the very love of Christ Himself and we can see Christ in this royal law.
The 'royal law' is not the old covenant/10 commandments/613 laws.

It's true that we are obligated to a life that goes beyond the ten but the ten are a standard and frame work for all of the other and are seated in the love of God. God is love and these laws are a reflection of Him.
And they were given only to Israel at Mt. Sinai. Being under them is not being 'joined with Christ', but rather being a child of the bondwoman (NOT the freewoman). That's why we see children of the bondwoman lifting up the law that condemns rather than Christ who is life.

[Sleaker]

The law helps you to identify what is sin so you can confess it and be forgiven and be cleansed, but the devil can still cause us to fall as he did Adam, and that is what you have to recognize or you fall into the other of the devil's traps "once saved always saved..."


I don't know about you, but I think there is a small but significant difference between sin and disobedience. Sin might be typified by transgression of the Law. Whereas disobedience might be typified as ignoring God's voice.

See in the first instance, with sin and the Law. If a person who does not know Christ sees the Law they are bound to it, and to them it is death. No matter what. Once they transgress it even a tiny bit they are damned to die.
but If the person in Christ sees the Law, they are not bound to it since their old self already died in Christ. It's not a follow it or die matter. Why? Because Christ has already died for that person. He took away their death and asked for Obedience to a new Law which fulfills the old. Which is: Love God and Love your neighbor.

Now disobedience works differently than the Law and sin. Because of Grace there is a time where God will keep calling back saying stop disobeying, stop going back to the old self. And it is through this learning that we call ourselves on the "Christian Path" or the road. Can I obey all the time? Yes, Do I? No, but does God immediately reject me the moment I disobey him once? not at all!
But if I was still bound to the Law this would be the case. Disobedience is shown not through the Law but through the Voice of God. If God tells you to do something through the spirit and you don't do it you have just disobeyed God. You can't obey God's voice if you haven't been saved from your sin, because if you have Sin, then you are bound to it. But once you are washed of your sin there is no need to go back and wash again. Didn't Christ die for all your sins past present and future on the cross? Don't we understand that when we believe on Christ? Or have we watered Christ's power down to only the past sins when we accept him as Lord?

[Scotishfury09]

Disobedience is separation from God, sin is separation from God. Disobedience is a sin.

[Sleaker]

what I mean is there is a difference in how God deals with them between the two people groups.

[Sleaker]

sorry for that little distinction. I think it's just a bit of a distinction I make in my mind, and generally I think through my writing.. So this is my line of thought if you will bear with me one moment:
non-Christians are bound to sin, they only know sin. They can't obey God and thus because they can't obey God are dead in their sin. I wouldn't say they are disobeying either because they have no choice but to be bound in the sin. It's all they know.

But the Christian has the choice, because they have seen God and have had the sin wiped away. They have a choice to now obey or disobey.

I guess I just see a distinction between the two in my mind, maybe it doesn't exist at all.

[freeindeed2]

But once you are washed of your sin there is no need to go back and wash again. Didn't Christ die for all your sins past present and future on the cross? Don't we understand that when we believe on Christ? Or have we watered Christ's power down to only the past sins when we accept him as Lord?
This is where SDA's differ. They believe that their past and present sins have been 'covered', but that each 'future' sin must be confessed as it occurs or they will be lost. It really doesn't allow for assurance of salvation except that they don't miss confessing and repenting of each individual sin on a daily basis.

I asked the question once that if I died in my sleep not having confessed one 'sin' that was committed that day would I be lost? The answer was an ABSOLUTE AFFIRMATIVE YES! I STRONGLY disagree, but that's the SDA view.

[Sleaker]

I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.

[freeindeed2]

I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.
Thank you for that. That is exactly why many (not all!) SDA's have no (or little) assurance of salvation! Many have not figured out that it's about God's promises, and NOT their abilities/actions/observances/efforts. TOTAL surrender (something that comes from God - Holy Spirit - living in us) is not our 'work'. It's something we experience because of what God does in us.

[Eila]

I'm going to say it quite plainly, if you must continually confess your sins then you are no better off than the person who is still in bondage to sin. For you have only heaped back upon yourself the Law which Christ has told you, you are dead to. Life as you know it will still be about not sinning, it will still be focused in the Law and still be focused in a place that God is not pleased with. Likewise repentance that does not end in total surrender to God is not true repentance.

:amen:

Romans 6 "10For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him]. 11Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus."

[reddogs]

I think what are trying to say is that if we are not under the dominion of sin, not under its power but under the Holy Spirit, then when we "disobey" it is unintentionly, and I agree and grace should suffice as we have not fallen back into sin, but have "stumbled on sin" or grieved the Holy Spirit a little.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:Ephesians 4:30-31

And as they say, "confession is good for they soul", if we admit it was a sin we will recognize it as such and not unintentionly "stumble" on it.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


But we need to be careful we do not use the excuse that it was just a little disobedience as what Eve did or even Cain with his incorrect sacrifice may have seemed like a small disobedience, but it had a large consequence. I would say that ignoring ("stumbling on sin" versus outright transgression of the Law) what God tells us can also have consequences as we see in this small eposide with Moses.

Moses followed God, he was told to speak to the rock but in his frustration and anger with the people he struck the rock, it had the consequence he was not allow to go into the land of promise.


Numbers 20:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=20&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.2And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.

3And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD!
4And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
5And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
7And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
9And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
11And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

[reddogs]

Now the danger is plain here, we say I can do a little disobedience and its really not "sin" so we let it slide. For example, we propose to and have a beautiful bride that we are going to marry, and we have picked out the ring, wedding date and everything.

Well, one day we bump into a old 'hot girlfriend', we can think of our new love and say "it would be wrong to sleep with her" and go our way, our we can use the excuse "well, I am not married yet so no harm in sleeping with her" and we go to her apartment to do it.

Have we sinned in our new brides eyes, yes, should we admit it was a sin and repent from it or should we let it slide and maybe bump into the old 'hot girlfriend' and do it again, maybe even after our pending marriage. Where do we admit (confess) it to be a sin, because if we dont we can definitely slide under the old 'hot girlfriend's power (dominion of sin) and continue it and she can point a accusing finger at any time if we try to get away from her, just as the devil does...........

[Eila]

I think what are trying to say is that if we are not under the dominion of sin, not under its power but under the Holy Spirit, then when we "disobey" it is unintentionly, and I agree and grace should suffice as we have not fallen back into sin, but have "stumbled on sin" or grieved the Holy Spirit a little.


All sin by Christians is intentional. It is no longer the nature of the Christian to sin. The Christian has to go against the direction of the Holy Spirit to sin.

Sin by non-Christians is unintentional. They do it without thinking. It comes naturally to them because they have a sin nature.

[Eila]

Now the danger is plain here, we say I can do a little disobedience and its really not "sin" so we let it slide. For example, we a propose to and have a beautiful bride that we are going to marry, and we have picked out the ring and everything.

Well, one day we bump into a old 'hot girlfriend', we can think of our new love and say "it would be wrong to sleep with her" and go our way, our we can use the excuse "well, I am not married yet so no harm in sleeping with her" and we go to her apartment to do it.

Have we sinned in our new brides eyes, yes, should we admit it was a sin and repent from it or let it slide and maybe bump into the old 'hot girlfriend' and do it again, maybe even after our pending marriage. Where do we declare (confess) it to be a sin, because if we dont we definitely will be under the old 'hot girlfriend's power (dominion of sin) as she can point a accusing finger at any time, just as the devil does...........

It was a sin even thinking about sleeping with the old girlfriend. If the analogy is comparing us to the man and the bride to Jesus then they should already be married. In that case the man would feel distant from his wife until he confesses and repents. But they are still married and the wife has not gone anywhere. And the wife will not divorce him for any reason.

[reddogs]

I have to disagree, a close married friend (who is a christian) had sex with his coworker, knowing it was adultery and that his wife would not see it as a little sin much less unintentionel. He saw the other young lady every day, and he went and got condoms at the store so it wasnt "accidental sex", it was planned, he did it, he is now suffering the "consequences" as his wife found the condoms.......


Anyone that says they are without sin or cannot sin are incorrectly taking the position of God as only the divine knows the heart and whether it truly is under power of the Holy Spirit....

[reddogs]

If we are christian, we are married in the spirit (in our heart and mind) and have faith we will get married when the bride comes, but until Jesus takes us away from sin at the second coming only He divinely knows if we are faithful and will truly be (married) with Him and taken to the kingdom...

If we are unfaithful and continue our sin and sleep continuosly with the old girlfriend, He will turn and say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."......

Only a few have been faithful to the point of Enoch and "eloped" before the wedding.......

[Eila]

I have to disagree, a close married friend (who is a christian) had sex with his coworker, knowing it was adultery and that his wife would not see it as a little sin much less unintentionel. He saw the other young lady every day, and he went and got condoms at the store so it wasnt "accidental sex", it was planned, he did it, he is now suffering the "consequences" as his wife found the condoms.......

Exactly, this sin was intentional as are all sins by Christians.

If the bride is Christ the wife would not divorce the husband. The wife would still be the wife full of love for her husband. The book of Hosea shows God instructing Hosea to marry an adulterous woman. Why? To demonstrate His love for Israel. He loved Israel even when they turned their back on them. He didn't stop being their God either.

[Eila]

Anyone that says they are without sin or cannot sin are incorrectly taking the position of God as only the divine knows the heart and whether it truly is under power of the Holy Spirit....

Who here has said that? I sin. The sinlessness that resides with me is His sinlessness.

[reddogs]

Sorry, misread the original post, thought you said the christian was "unitentional"...

But then christians under the Holy Spirit are "capable of sin" as if I remember correctly you stated in a past previous post "they cannot sin".....have you changed your thinking on this?

[Eila]

If we are christian, we are married in the spirit (in our heart and mind) and have faith we will get married when the bride comes, but until Jesus takes us away from sin at the second coming only He divinely knows if we are faithful and will truly be (married) with Him and taken to the kingdom...

If we are unfaithful and continue our sin and sleep continuosly with the old girlfriend, He will turn and say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."......

Only a few have been faithful to the point of Enoch and "eloped" before the wedding.......

"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.

We are one with Him now. We died and our new life is hidden in Him. Our spirit is what was reborn. The body is clothing for our spirit. If you are married in the spirit now then what part of you is getting married later?

Romans 6 "4We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life. 5For if we have become one with Him by sharing a death like His, we shall also be [one with Him in sharing] His resurrection [by a new life lived for God]."

[reddogs]

That part that can still intentionally sin which He will change and take away when He redeems us when the bride cometh for the wedding.....as sin will be no more in the kingdom, that I am sure of....

[Eila]

Sorry, misread the original post, thought you said the christian was "unitentional"...

But then christians under the Holy Spirit are "capable of sin" as if I remember correctly you stated in a past previous post "they cannot sin".....have you changed your thinking on this?

I don't remember my wording exactly, but I haven't changed my position. Christians sin. All sin by Christians is intentional. However, that sin has already been taken care of by the blood of Jesus. His righteousness and sinlessness reside in me. Although Christians may commit sin the sin is not counted against them. They cannot commit sin that counts against them regarding salvation. The Christian who sins may suffer natural consequences for his actions and not have many good works when he stands before the reward seat of Christ.

1 John 3:"5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him....9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Whoever is born again does not sin. If you had a different understanding of the spirit you may comprehend what I am saying. The spirit of a man is born again and made new. The spirit is made new and cannot be tainted with sin. The spirit is where the Holy Spirit dwells and the Holy Spirit cannot dwell with sin. We are abiding in Him. In Him there is no sin.

My actions may not reflect that sinlessness given to me. I may sin, but that sin does not affect that sinlessness - that born again nature. My spirit cannot fall into sin because it is based on Jesus' sinless life. It is perfected forever. The process of getting sin out of my actions is maturity. I may sin in my mind or emotions or actions, but not in my spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin and changes my mind, emotions, and actions.

I know you don't agree with what I said, but did that clear things up?

[reddogs]

Good, we are on the same line of thought that we can be tempted and sin, now we need to take the next step and see how we handle sin from this point on.. (I can feel another thread coming, but its 3:30 am here and my wife likes to hear me snore beside her......)

But I will leave you with this....

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Eila]

Good, we are on the same line of thought that we can be tempted and sin, now we need to take the next step and see how we handle sin from this point on.. (I can feel another thread coming, but its 3:30 am here and my wife likes to hear me snore beside her......)

But I will leave you with this....

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yes that is what happens when we are born again - we are cleansed and forgiven. Praise God:clap:

Have a good sleep Reddogs :sleep:

[Jimlarmore]

"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.

I disagree with this assessement for the following reasons.

1. You can't cast out devils and be aligned with the devil, Christ Himself made that statement when the Pharasee's accused Him of casting out demons by the power of baalzeebub. The folks Christ is speaking of here were at one time Christians.

2.David was said to be a man of God and perfect in the way he served the Lord. This was said well after David killed a man so he could marry his wife. So the Lord wiped out his transgressions and looked at Davide as if they never happened. The same thing applies here for those who are saved and fall away into false teachings. The Lord will say I never knew you just like your being saved never happened.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

[freeindeed2]

"I never knew you" were people who were never born again. You can't be born again and never be known.
Exactly! So many want to apply this to people they perceive 'fall away' (or leave Adventism), but if they were once saved, how could God say that he 'never knew them'?

Obviously these are people who have NEVER been born again.

We are one with Him now. We died and our new life is hidden in Him. Our spirit is what was reborn. The body is clothing for our spirit. If you are married in the spirit now then what part of you is getting married later?

Romans 6 "4We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life. 5For if we have become one with Him by sharing a death like His, we shall also be [one with Him in sharing] His resurrection [by a new life lived for God]."
Here's more:

"So then, dear friends, the point is this: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result [of being united with Christ], you can produce good fruit [fruit of the Spirit], that is, good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit [Holy Spirit]. Rom 7:4-6

Clearly we are released from the law, which aroused evil in us, and we are UNITED with Christ. The old way of obeying the 'letter' is gone, and obedience to God is now through the Spirit, not law keeping [old covenant]. But so many are afraid of being led by the Spirit [they can't be fruit inspectors then!], so they run back to the old covenant/10 commandments...but all they'll find is death and condemnation.:doh: Not exactly what they had planned, but it's the reality of trying to be justified by keeping the law (which nobody keeps).

[Jimlarmore]

Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+20&version=niv&showtools=1)

1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid.

Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible.

John 8:3-11

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."

Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.

Rom 8:1-4

1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[freeindeed2]

Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+20&version=niv&showtools=1)


1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid.


Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible.


John 8:3-11


3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."


Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."


Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.


Rom 8:1-4


1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws.


God Bless

Jim Larmore

Interesting 'study'. I'm glad you used the initials IOW, because that's where you put it into your own words through the SDA interpretation in order to preserve and promote the Sabbath.

As far as obedience goes:

"But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT]." Rom 7:6

Those who lift up the law, instead of Christ, have not been 'joined to another'. They are still tied to the law that condemns, or 'ministration of death'. The sad part is that they do NOT keep the law themselves. They promote what they do not keep because they don't know how to measure those who are kept by the Holy Spirit. Obedience to God comes from the Holy Spirit and it is NOT tied to the old covenant/10 commandments. Why can't you trust the Holy Spirit?

[Eila]

I disagree with this assessement for the following reasons.

1. You can't cast out devils and be aligned with the devil, Christ Himself made that statement when the Pharasee's accused Him of casting out demons by the power of baalzeebub. The folks Christ is speaking of here were at one time Christians.

The people asked those questions, but you assume the answer is yes. The Bible never says that the people did those things. Jesus was clear when he said "I never knew you".


2.David was said to be a man of God and perfect in the way he served the Lord. This was said well after David killed a man so he could marry his wife. So the Lord wiped out his transgressions and looked at Davide as if they never happened. The same thing applies here for those who are saved and fall away into false teachings. The Lord will say I never knew you just like your being saved never happened.

Did God forget David when he sinned? David did according to the law and was forgiven.

[Eila]

Exodus 20 - Study This Chapter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+20&version=niv&showtools=1)


1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid.

Obviously, this is the ten commandments but if you take a good look at the context you will find something interesting. First off God says I am the one who brought you out of bondage , out of Egypt. IOW, God saved them, right? So we have Literal Salvation coupled with a law. So we see here where salvation and obedience goes hand in hand. Let's see if we can find another example of this in the Bible.

Deliverance from bondange happened before the initiation of the law. The law was the covenant.

Look at this interesting comparison:

50 days after the deliverance from the Red Sea the CIO entered into the covenant when God gave them the law on Sinai. The Isrealites were to obey the law.

50 days after the resurrection of Jesus the church entered a new covenant when God gave them the Holy Spirit. We are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.



John 8:3-11

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Here we have a similar scenario where the Creator of the universe forgives and saves a woman caught in the act of adultery. However, He ends the encounter with her by telling her to go and leave her life of sin. IOW, I've forgiven you, I don't condemn you but go and obey the commandments now. The KJV says "Go and sin no more."

We shouldn't sin. It was grace that Jesus offered to her even when she was guilty. She didn't do anything to deserve that grace. We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you into sin.



Salvation is always coupled with obedience. We live and exist by the grace of Christ and are not condemned by the law if we allow Christ to come into our hearts. Let's look at this set of texts.

Obedience is a result of the work of God in us. It is not connected to salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works!



Rom 8:1-4

1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Here we clearly see the relationship of salvation and obedience. Christ has set us free from the condemnation of the law by becoming our sin offering and in the last bolded part of this set of texts we read where the Bible says when we are saved we do not live according to the sinful nature which means we are obeying by His power His laws.
The last bolded part says we live according to the Spirit, not the law. The law condemns. Those who are in Christ are not condemned. The law cannot condemn those who are in Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death and now are partakers in the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit guides us.

[Jimlarmore]

The people asked those questions, but you assume the answer is yes. The Bible never says that the people did those things. Jesus was clear when he said "I never knew you".

Matt 7:22 says, " Have we not prophecied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils, in thy name done many wonderful works?" These questions indicate that these people worked miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. By any standard they would be considered Christians. You are speculating when you say they were never Christians because when one looses their salvation all of the former good will not be remembered just as all of the wickedness will not be remembered if we are saved. That is the reason Christ said "I never knew you."

Did God forget David when he sinned? David did according to the law and was forgiven.

He never forgets any of us, however if David had not repented of his sin then Christ may have one day said He never knew David as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

Matt 7:22 says, " Have we not prophecied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils, in thy name done many wonderful works?" These questions indicate that these people worked miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. By any standard they would be considered Christians. You are speculating when you say they were never Christians because when one looses their salvation all of the former good will not be remembered just as all of the wickedness will not be remembered if we are saved. That is the reason Christ said "I never knew you."


He never forgets any of us, however if David had not repented of his sin then Christ may have one day said He never knew David as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

It is speculation to say that the answer to the questions are yes and it is speculation to say that the answer to the questions are no. The Bible doesn't tell us the answer. But it does say that He never knew them.

So you are saying "never" means something other than never?

I never
New Testament Greek Definition:
3763 oudepote {oo-dep'-ot-eh}
from 3761 and 4218;; adv
AV - never 14, neither at any time 1, nothing at any time + 3856 1; 16
1) never

[Jimlarmore]

Deliverance from bondange happened before the initiation of the law. The law was the covenant.

Exactly, however, the point is salvation and obedience go hand in hand. The law never saved the people it never did but after they were saved God asked them to keep the law just as Christ asked the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more after He saved her from being stoned. He never condemned her but he asked her to be obedient to God's law.



50 days after the deliverance from the Red Sea the CIO entered into the covenant when God gave them the law on Sinai. The Isrealites were to obey the law.

50 days after the resurrection of Jesus the church entered a new covenant when God gave them the Holy Spirit. We are to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Which is to obey God's commandments also according to Rev 14:12. Modern Israel is actually held to a higher accountability to the law than ancient Israel was. We are held to the spirit of the law not just the letter of it.



We shouldn't sin. It was grace that Jesus offered to her even when she was guilty. She didn't do anything to deserve that grace. We should follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will not lead you into sin.

Grace and obedience to the law always go hand in hand. Christ does not save us to put us right back into sin again. It's like the story of the man caught speeding. The officer decides to extend grace and give him a warning but that grace doesn't do away with the man's obligation to keep the speed laws in the future. The grace the officer extends wouldn't even be necessary if the law didn't exist in the first place.


Obedience is a result of the work of God in us. It is not connected to salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works!

True but one follows the other because in James 2 the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead.


The last bolded part says we live according to the Spirit, not the law. The law condemns. Those who are in Christ are not condemned. The law cannot condemn those who are in Christ. We have been set free from the law of sin and death and now are partakers in the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit guides us.

God never changes and the law of the spirit will not violate or make void/change the ten commandment law of God written by His finger in stone and spoken by His mouth.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

Which is to obey God's commandments also according to Rev 14:12. Modern Israel is actually held to a higher accountability to the law than ancient Israel was. We are held to the spirit of the law not just the letter of it.

I am not modern Israel. Israel is Israel, not the church.

The leading of the Spirit is not to obey the 10 commandments - but to follow the leading of the Spirit. The law is completed.

Galatians 5 "8But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law."

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

You have to choose - follow the law or follow the Holy Spirit.




Grace and obedience to the law always go hand in hand. Christ does not save us to put us right back into sin again. It's like the story of the man caught speeding. The officer decides to extend grace and give him a warning but that grace doesn't do away with the man's obligation to keep the speed laws in the future. The grace the officer extends wouldn't even be necessary if the law didn't exist in the first place.


Obedience comes after grace. It has nothing to do with grace for grace is unmerited favor. Christ doesn't save us to put us right back in sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sin. It is not about the law anymore.



True but one follows the other because in James 2 the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead.


The fruit of the Spirit will show up in the life of someone who is listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.


God never changes and the law of the spirit will not violate or make void/change the ten commandment law of God written by His finger in stone and spoken by His mouth.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Then you should be wearing tassels on your clothing, making sure that you do not round the corners of your hair, and keeping every feast. God doesn't change, but laws do.

Read Acts 2 - that was not a small thing that happened that day. It was every bit as powerful as that day on the mountain. You can stick with the law on stone if you want, but you can have the Holy Spirit living in you instructing you in all things. The law on our heart is not the law on stone, but the Holy Spirit living in our heart.

[freeindeed2]

I am not modern Israel. Israel is Israel, not the church.

The leading of the Spirit is not to obey the 10 commandments - but to follow the leading of the Spirit. The law is completed.

Galatians 5 "8But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law."

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

You have to choose - follow the law or follow the Holy Spirit.






Obedience comes after grace. It has nothing to do with grace for grace is unmerited favor. Christ doesn't save us to put us right back in sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit who will convict us of sin. It is not about the law anymore.




The fruit of the Spirit will show up in the life of someone who is listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.



Then you should be wearing tassels on your clothing, making sure that you do not round the corners of your hair, and keeping every feast. God doesn't change, but laws do.

Read Acts 2 - that was not a small thing that happened that day. It was every bit as powerful as that day on the mountain. You can stick with the law on stone if you want, but you can have the Holy Spirit living in you instructing you in all things. The law on our heart is not the law on stone, but the Holy Spirit living in our heart.
That's right! AMEN! :amen:

[reddogs]

'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........

[Eila]

'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........

Can you provide scriptural support for the "="?

[reddogs]

Do you have something against Jews, as this is a basic concept?

[Eila]

Do you have something against Jews, as this is a basic concept?

Why would wanting scriptural support mean I have something against Jews? You said modern Israel = the church. Can you provide Scriptural support for that?

[reddogs]

You must have me confused with someone else, here is my quote:

"...'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........"

[Eila]

You must have me confused with someone else, here is my quote:

"...'Modern Israel'='Spritual Israel' and are those who love and follow God and His Son Jesus Christ........"

I had assumed you believe spiritual Israel equals the church. So let me rephrase....can you provide scriptural support that modern Israel = Spiritual Israel?

[reddogs]

Again I say it is a basic concept, what do have against it, is it the "jewish" component?

Anyhow, I will study or look for some background on it if you need it.

[Eila]

Again I say it is a basic concept, what do have against it, is it the "jewish" component?

Anyhow, I will study or look for some background on it if you need it.


If it is a basic concept then couldn't you point me to the text that spells it out?

I don't have anything against Jews or Israel. I don't know why you think that.

[reddogs]

John 7:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
John 7:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=34&end_verse=36&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Acts 13:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=13&verse=42&version=9&context=verse)
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Romans 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Romans 2:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 3:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Romans 3:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 9:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 10:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&verse=32&version=9&context=verse)
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&verse=31&end_verse=33&version=9&context=context) (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[Eila]

John 7:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
John 7:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&verse=34&end_verse=36&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Acts 13:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=13&verse=42&version=9&context=verse)
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Romans 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Romans 2:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 3:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Romans 3:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 9:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Romans 9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 10:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&verse=32&version=9&context=verse)
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&verse=31&end_verse=33&version=9&context=context) (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I'm not sure how these texts say that modern Israel = spiritual Israel?

Look at 1 Corinthians 10:32 that you quoted. Who is listed: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. There are Jews (Israelites), Gentiles, and the believers who make up the church.

[reddogs]

The Gentiles are not Jews but they followed God's truth as given in the Old Testament and the New Testament, thus they are not 'literal Isreal' but seen as "Spiritual Israel"...

[Eila]

The Gentiles are not Jews but they followed God's truth as given in the Old Testament and the New Testament, thus they are not 'literal Isreal' but seen as "Spiritual Israel"...

But you just quoted a text that listed the Jews, Gentiles, and the church.

If you believe in Jesus you are part of the church no matter what your nationality or race. The text you quoted shows that the Jews are not the church and that the Gentiles are not the church.

[freeindeed2]

But you just quoted a text that listed the Jews, Gentiles, and the church.

If you believe in Jesus you are part of the church no matter what your nationality or race. The text you quoted shows that the Jews are not the church and that the Gentiles are not the church.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

[Eila]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

Yes, in Christ we are not Jews or Gentiles but a new creation.

I am not Israel. Israel still exists. Romans 11 "25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."