Ben johnson
6th August 2003, 07:10 AM
Salvation by the grace of God is not conditional.Oh it's VERY conditional! Jesus ASSERTS the conditions:
"Unless you are HUMBLED as a CHILD you will NOT inherit the Kingdom" (Matt18:3-4)
"Unless you REPENT, you WILL perish!" (Lk13:3)
"Unless you DO the will of the FATHER you will NOT inherit!" (Lk7:1)
"Unless you are BORN AGAIN you CANNOT see Heaven!" (Jn3:3)
(it is of course the "born again" under which the others reside; cause-and-effect, not effect-and-cause --- see Gal2:20)
Again, this violates the passage in Ephesians.
Eph2:8-9 has ONE SUBJECT and FIVE modifiers. The subject is SALVATION; the modifiers are:
1. By grace
2. Through faith
3. Not OF yourselves
4. GIFT OF God
5. Not of works
"THAT" refers to THAT-SALVATION; it does not refer to "THAT FAITH" --- faith is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE (dia-pistis, through-faith), not another SUBJECT...
Salvation is a FREE GIFT, and the gift is ENTIRELY OF GOD; but it is received ENTIRELY OF US (Jn1:12, Rom5:17); our receiving the gift changes nothing of the gift --- it remains entirely HIS (Christ's sacrifice on the Cross) and none of us, we only RECEIVED It...
One must understand that belief (faith) is a response to God's grace. Nope, sorry. Faith that is NOT BY CHOICE is second grace; thus Eph2:8 becomes perverted into: "For by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved." SAVING-FAITH is identically SAVING-BELIEF; and Paul plainly says "with the heart man believes" and "faith comes from hearing". See Acts 2:37, and you see the CONVICTION that came from their OWN HEARTS that CAUSED saving-faith. God is just; He does not deal unfairly, He does NOT decree (boulemai) any to perish but makes-room (choreo) for all to repent (Pet3:9).
This gets into the subject of election which is not part of this debate.
As you wish; but waterbaptism is another "outward sign" that the Believer does as a consequence of his faith.
FAITH CAUSES SALVATION (not vice-versa), and FAITH CAUSES WATERBAPTISM (not vice-versa)...
Thus we have Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.
No, it's Jesus' NAME that causes the remission of sins. "There is no other NAME under Heaven by which we must be saved" Acts4:12 "Arise, be baptized, AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, CALLING ON HIS NAME" Acts 2:16 It is the CALLING ON HIS NAME that saves.("WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED" Rm10:13)
What if there was a passage that showed salvation AFTER being water-baptized (some TIME after)? And what if there was a passage that showed salvation BEFORE being waterbaptized? Would you have any CHOICE but to recognize that waterbaptism is SEPARATE from salvation?
First, so we're clear --- John-the-baptist said that "immersion in the Spirit is what Jesus brings" (Matt3:11). There is no argument that this "Spirit-immersion" had NOTHING to do with water, John differentiates the two clearly; likewise, John speaks of "baptism of fire for sinners" (11&12) which ALSO has nothing to do with water.
Immersion in the Holy Spirit IS salvation.
Identically also, immersion in CHRIST IS salvation.
See Hebrews 3:1, "PARTNERS in a heavenly calling".
Hebrews 3:14, "PARTNERS in Christ".
Hebrews 6:4, "PARTNERS in the Holy SPirit".
"METOCHOS" is translated "partakers", but it really means "partners".
Partners in the Holy Spirit (immersed, Matt3:11), is parallel to Partners in Christ (immersed/buried/united, Rom6); and NEITHER has ANYTHING to do with water. Romans 6 further says "we are ALSO united in His RESURRECTION"; do you propose TWO waterbaptisms, one for DYING and one for BORN-AGAIN? You cannot deny that TWO EVENTS are depicted in Romans 6; BURIED/UNITED into His DEATH, ALSO united in His RESURRECTION.
Now the two passages: Acts 8:16-17 says "they had been water-baptized but had NOT received the Holy Spirit." Acts 10:43-48 says "they were filled with the Spirit, tongued and exalted, but had NOT YET BEEN WATERBAPTIZED! This is one passage that cannot be refuted; Peter plainly says "same gift as He gave to us, filled with the Spirit just as WE WERE!" (Acts11:15 & 17)
Can't deny it; Peter says "THEY WERE SAVED"; But they weren't water-baptized yet, were they?
"Unless you are HUMBLED as a CHILD you will NOT inherit the Kingdom" (Matt18:3-4)
"Unless you REPENT, you WILL perish!" (Lk13:3)
"Unless you DO the will of the FATHER you will NOT inherit!" (Lk7:1)
"Unless you are BORN AGAIN you CANNOT see Heaven!" (Jn3:3)
(it is of course the "born again" under which the others reside; cause-and-effect, not effect-and-cause --- see Gal2:20)
Again, this violates the passage in Ephesians.
Eph2:8-9 has ONE SUBJECT and FIVE modifiers. The subject is SALVATION; the modifiers are:
1. By grace
2. Through faith
3. Not OF yourselves
4. GIFT OF God
5. Not of works
"THAT" refers to THAT-SALVATION; it does not refer to "THAT FAITH" --- faith is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE (dia-pistis, through-faith), not another SUBJECT...
Salvation is a FREE GIFT, and the gift is ENTIRELY OF GOD; but it is received ENTIRELY OF US (Jn1:12, Rom5:17); our receiving the gift changes nothing of the gift --- it remains entirely HIS (Christ's sacrifice on the Cross) and none of us, we only RECEIVED It...
One must understand that belief (faith) is a response to God's grace. Nope, sorry. Faith that is NOT BY CHOICE is second grace; thus Eph2:8 becomes perverted into: "For by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved." SAVING-FAITH is identically SAVING-BELIEF; and Paul plainly says "with the heart man believes" and "faith comes from hearing". See Acts 2:37, and you see the CONVICTION that came from their OWN HEARTS that CAUSED saving-faith. God is just; He does not deal unfairly, He does NOT decree (boulemai) any to perish but makes-room (choreo) for all to repent (Pet3:9).
This gets into the subject of election which is not part of this debate.
As you wish; but waterbaptism is another "outward sign" that the Believer does as a consequence of his faith.
FAITH CAUSES SALVATION (not vice-versa), and FAITH CAUSES WATERBAPTISM (not vice-versa)...
Thus we have Point 2: Baptism is for the remission of sins.
No, it's Jesus' NAME that causes the remission of sins. "There is no other NAME under Heaven by which we must be saved" Acts4:12 "Arise, be baptized, AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, CALLING ON HIS NAME" Acts 2:16 It is the CALLING ON HIS NAME that saves.("WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED" Rm10:13)
What if there was a passage that showed salvation AFTER being water-baptized (some TIME after)? And what if there was a passage that showed salvation BEFORE being waterbaptized? Would you have any CHOICE but to recognize that waterbaptism is SEPARATE from salvation?
First, so we're clear --- John-the-baptist said that "immersion in the Spirit is what Jesus brings" (Matt3:11). There is no argument that this "Spirit-immersion" had NOTHING to do with water, John differentiates the two clearly; likewise, John speaks of "baptism of fire for sinners" (11&12) which ALSO has nothing to do with water.
Immersion in the Holy Spirit IS salvation.
Identically also, immersion in CHRIST IS salvation.
See Hebrews 3:1, "PARTNERS in a heavenly calling".
Hebrews 3:14, "PARTNERS in Christ".
Hebrews 6:4, "PARTNERS in the Holy SPirit".
"METOCHOS" is translated "partakers", but it really means "partners".
Partners in the Holy Spirit (immersed, Matt3:11), is parallel to Partners in Christ (immersed/buried/united, Rom6); and NEITHER has ANYTHING to do with water. Romans 6 further says "we are ALSO united in His RESURRECTION"; do you propose TWO waterbaptisms, one for DYING and one for BORN-AGAIN? You cannot deny that TWO EVENTS are depicted in Romans 6; BURIED/UNITED into His DEATH, ALSO united in His RESURRECTION.
Now the two passages: Acts 8:16-17 says "they had been water-baptized but had NOT received the Holy Spirit." Acts 10:43-48 says "they were filled with the Spirit, tongued and exalted, but had NOT YET BEEN WATERBAPTIZED! This is one passage that cannot be refuted; Peter plainly says "same gift as He gave to us, filled with the Spirit just as WE WERE!" (Acts11:15 & 17)
Can't deny it; Peter says "THEY WERE SAVED"; But they weren't water-baptized yet, were they?