Implications of foreknowledge

[Hagios17]

----------------------------------
1. Adress the content, dont attack some theme and title.
2. Remember, agreeing with my premise will contradict a belief in free will.
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I've found that if you persist diligently you will understand, peradventure God granted you...

STATEMENT: Before everything(excluding God) was , God "A" foreknew everything "B".

PREMISE: So if A foreknew B before B existed, being everything else but A, then A created B?

-------------------------

Peace and grace be multiplied

The God of our salvation, Yeshua Hammashiach

Josh

[Hagios17]

Thus foreknowledge implies absolute predestination?

[calidog]

Those He foreknew (who would freely choose) He predestined (in Christ).

[DeaconDean]

On second thought, I deleted my post because it's just not worth the eventual argument.

[MrJim]

On second thought, I deleted my post because it's just not worth the eventual argument.

You are showing wisdom, brother jarhead. There is defending the faith and there is smashing yer skull against the wall until the grey matter is soup...

Hagios, dude, you've been away...RichardT tries to fill the void when yer gone but no one creates superfluous threads like you man. Where have ya been hidin'?

[Hagios17]

...I don't follow DeaconDean:scratch:

[Hagios17]

Yo, menno

Superfluous, well... I think it would be fair to rather say "interesting superfluous threads":D

I haven't been hidden just real bussy with school work... MATRIC:eek: and also, on the down low, been having problems with the mods+admins......

[MrJim]

and also, on the down low, been having problems with the mods+admins......

...I can't imagine;) :D

[Hagios17]

lol, i know

[Seeker of the Truth]

Those He foreknew (who would freely choose) He predestined (in Christ).
I agree with Calidog.

I've also had many question which members of this board have noticed.

I found the answer, the same answer I've always had.

I now question other people's beliefs because if I'm led by the Holy Spirit to believe one thing, what are those other people being led by to believe what they believe?

[Hagios17]

Implications of foreknowledge


----------------------------------
1. Adress the content, dont attack some theme and title.
2. Remember, agreeing with my premise will contradict a belief in free will.
----------------------------------
I've found that if you persist diligently you will understand, peradventure God granted you...

STATEMENT: Before everything(excluding God) was , God "A" foreknew everything "B".

PREMISE: So if A foreknew B before B existed, being everything else but A, then A created B?

-------------------------

Peace and grace be multiplied

The God of our salvation, Yeshua Hammashiach

Josh
--

[GordonSlocum]

Thus foreknowledge implies absolute predestination?
How do you define absolute predestination?

[Hagios17]

How do you define absolute predestination?

A created B

[Seeker of the Truth]

A created B
lol, Hagios, your example sucks :D

If A created B, whoopidy doo. That aids your view in no way.

[Hagios17]

lol... okay then

[Seeker of the Truth]

lol... okay then
It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Just because A existed before B, doesn't mean B was created by A, nor does it mean that God predestined all of us and we have no choice in our salvation.

[Hagios17]

"In the beginning was the Word... All things were made by him..." John 1:1-3

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:16-17

"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8

Absolute Predestination is the biblical principle of how God created everything. Absolute, refering to "everything", Pre, meaning "before", refering to "in the beginning" and destinate, meaning to "establish" or "create".

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Hagios17]

It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Just because A existed before B, doesn't mean B was created by A, nor does it mean that God predestined all of us and we have no choice in our salvation.

Granted, "If A existed before B, doesn't mean B was created by A" but if B is everything else besides A, then it does mean A created B?

[GordonSlocum]

A created B
Now that's a very concise answer. Very good.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Hagios, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply saying that you aren't making any sense in your argument, whatever it is. What are we even discussing here again?

Ahh, absolute predestination... So, you believe that God knew that we would put our faith in Him, repent of our sins, and do His will so He sent Christ to save us?

[Hagios17]

Its not about us spsucj, its about Jesus. And when you begin to see and understand his work, you praise his name more than every. Its so strange... and foolish:)

[Seeker of the Truth]

Its not about us spsucj, its about Jesus. And when you begin to see and understand his work, you praise his name more than every. Its so strange... and foolish:)
Hagios, can you answer my question please?

[mlqurgw]

Hagios, can you answer my question please?Would you mind if I answer?

This is the question correct?


So, you believe that God knew that we would put our faith in Him, repent of our sins, and do His will so He sent Christ to save us?
While I can't answer as to what Hagios believes I can tell you that God sent His Son to do for us what we would not and could not do. If He did it because He knew what we would do, as you suggest, then our salvation is conditioned on something we do. That is works. I know you don't believe in salvation by works so I ask that you think about it.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Would you mind if I answer?

This is the question correct?



While I can't answer as to what Hagios believes I can tell you that God sent His Son to do for us what we would not and could not do. If He did it because He knew what we would do, as you suggest, then our salvation is conditioned on something we do. That is works. I know you don't believe in salvation by works so I ask that you think about it.

Yes sir. Err, Salvation depends on if we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and if we do His will. So, if you call that "works," then by all means, yes. Just as the Bible describes it.

[TwinCrier]

----------------------------------

1. Adress the content, dont attack some theme and title.
2. Remember, agreeing with my premise will contradict a belief in free will.
----------------------------------
I've found that if you persist diligently you will understand, peradventure God granted you...

STATEMENT: Before everything(excluding God) was , God "A" foreknew everything "B".

PREMISE: So if A foreknew B before B existed, being everything else but A, then A created B?

-------------------------

Peace and grace be multiplied

The God of our salvation, Yeshua Hammashiach

Josh
I believe this is perfectly circular reasoning. Kind of like saying, something to the effect of, If God can do anything, can He create an object so heavy He can't lift it? You're trying to fit an infinite God into a finite tulip.

[JimfromOhio]

You're trying to fit an infinite God into a finite tulip.

Parables are not good anymore? :doh:

[TwinCrier]

Sure, if the parable has some grounding in reality. ^_^

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm

[JimfromOhio]

Sure, if the parable has some grounding in reality. ^_^

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm

I have seen that link in the past and I disagree ;) :wave:

[TwinCrier]

I don't mind that you disagree with the link or me..... just don't burn me alive okay? :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

I don't mind that you disagree with the link or me..... just don't burn me alive okay? :thumbsup:

God knows who are His. :thumbsup:

[Erinwilcox]

Yes sir. Err, Salvation depends on if we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and if we do His will. So, if you call that "works," then by all means, yes. Just as the Bible describes it.


. . ."but it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. . ." from Ephesians.

Man is responsible for his own salvation. No Calvinist would deny that. However, just because man is responsible for something does not mean that he is able to do it. If someone is dead, can they smell, taste, or move? Can they speak? No. The Bible says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Not almost dead, not mostly dead, but dead. How on earth could a dead person choose God? He's dead. . .remember? He can do nothing. For those whom He has chosen, God sends the Holy Spirit to draw them unto Himself. If God did not draw them, they would not come--unregenerate man will always choose sin (and unbelief is sin). Yes man must repent of his sins, but who enables him to do so? Yes, man must trust in God, but who gives him that gift of faith?

[mlqurgw]

Yes sir. Err, Salvation depends on if we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and if we do His will. So, if you call that "works," then by all means, yes. Just as the Bible describes it.Well at least you are honest enough to admit you believe in a works salvation. It is the only conclusion to free will theology. I do hope you understand the implications of your beliefs.

[Seeker of the Truth]

. . ."but it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. . ." from Ephesians.

Man is responsible for his own salvation. No Calvinist would deny that. However, just because man is responsible for something does not mean that he is able to do it. If someone is dead, can they smell, taste, or move? Can they speak? No. The Bible says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Not almost dead, not mostly dead, but dead. How on earth could a dead person choose God? He's dead. . .remember? He can do nothing. For those whom He has chosen, God sends the Holy Spirit to draw them unto Himself. If God did not draw them, they would not come--unregenerate man will always choose sin (and unbelief is sin). Yes man must repent of his sins, but who enables him to do so? Yes, man must trust in God, but who gives him that gift of faith?

First off, Christ comes to everyone. Want me to pull some Scripture?

There really isn't any point to pulling Scripture anymore with you people. We all use the same verses, you just twist them to mean what you want them to mean.

Try this: Using your brain, think of how God could just make men good and evil. He would choose all his "homeboys" and let them live an everlasting life with Him in Heaven. Then, He would send the rest of His youngin's to Hell because He MADE THEM BAD. Does that make sense? God punishing man for sins that God made them commit?

Of course it doesn't. That's why I'm using my Brain to understand this and you're in your boat not using your brain. ...You're using John Calvin's brain.

What good is that? John Calvin didn't live with, nor did He learn from Christ. Oh, but Christ's Apostles did. And guess what? None of them speak of predestination the way Calvinists put it. Neither did any of the Apostles Disciples!

How crazy would I be if I believed a man that lived 1000 years after Christ than to believe God's Word, His Apostles and the Apostles Disciples?

...I wouldn't. That'd be the smart thing to do.

Well at least you are honest enough to admit you believe in a works salvation. It is the only conclusion to free will theology. I do hope you understand the implications of your beliefs.

Do works keep me in Salvation? Of course not, Ron. When did I say that? I said that WE HAVE A PART IN OUR SALVATION. God cannot make us believe, repent, nor can He make us do His will. Why? Because He isn't Supreme, Ron? No, BECAUSE HE GIVES US THAT CHOICE.

Want some Scripture? Oh, but we both use the SAME book yet we both believe in two totally different things. Maybe Calvinists should start using logic a little more and stop using Calvin.

Sorry for being harsh, but I'm fed up with speaking to rocks. Well, at least these rocks talk back.

/rant.

Anybody smell a referral?

[IamItalian]

The Apostles DID teach Reformed theology--just read Romans 8-9 to see that.

However, I see that this is a debate that will not be resolved since you are not willing to look at things with an open heart. Many years ago, I believed much as you did. Then, I was introduced to Reformed theology. I was interested, but it was so very different from anything that I had ever learned before. I prayed, "Lord, if it is true, then let me believe it." God eventually convinced me that Calvinism was completely biblical. Calvinism is not about John Calvin, it is not about a bunch of Reformers, it is about God and His glory and the way that He has chosen to save a people unto himself. An elevated view of man says that man, although sinful, has enough good in him to choose God. God, however, has revealed that man is utterly sinful and wicked--there is none that does good, no not one. Calvinists realize this and know that it is God ALONE who is responsible for their salvation. By grace alone. . .Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me. Perhaps it should be reworded--by grace and my choice--Amazing choice that chose salvation for me.

If you would like to take the glory for your salvation, fine. The Calvinists, however, give ALL the glory to God, to whom be all glory forever and ever, amen.

[Hagios17]

Hagios, can you answer my question please?

QUESTION:

... So, you believe that God knew that we would put our faith in Him, repent of our sins, and do His will so He sent Christ to save us?

The answer is obviously yes. Just read the thread and you will see how I believe this, but to go one step further...

STATEMENT: Before everything(excluding God) was , God "A" foreknew everything "B".

PREMISE: So if A foreknew B before B existed, being everything else but A, then A created B?

[Seeker of the Truth]

The Apostles DID teach Reformed theology--just read Romans 8-9 to see that.

However, I see that this is a debate that will not be resolved since you are not willing to look at things with an open heart. Many years ago, I believed much as you did. Then, I was introduced to Reformed theology. I was interested, but it was so very different from anything that I had ever learned before. I prayed, "Lord, if it is true, then let me believe it." God eventually convinced me that Calvinism was completely biblical. Calvinism is not about John Calvin, it is not about a bunch of Reformers, it is about God and His glory and the way that He has chosen to save a people unto himself. An elevated view of man says that man, although sinful, has enough good in him to choose God. God, however, has revealed that man is utterly sinful and wicked--there is none that does good, no not one. Calvinists realize this and know that it is God ALONE who is responsible for their salvation. By grace alone. . .Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me. Perhaps it should be reworded--by grace and my choice--Amazing choice that chose salvation for me.

If you would like to take the glory for your salvation, fine. The Calvinists, however, give ALL the glory to God, to whom be all glory forever and ever, amen.
Err, when did you get into this debate?

Anyway, no I don't take any glory at all for my Salvation. I do believe in Grace and by God's Grace am I saved.

"Lord, if it be true, let me believe it."

BTW, God doesn't make you believe anything.

[Seeker of the Truth]

QUESTION:



The answer is obviously yes. Just read the thread and you will see how I believe this, but to go one step further...
Hagios, what's your point?

This little thing you've created has nothing to do with anything.

[Hagios17]

Yes sir. Err, Salvation depends on if we put our faith in Christ, repent of our sins and if we do His will. So, if you call that "works," then by all means, yes. Just as the Bible describes it.

Then you make naught the work of Christ.

[Hagios17]

I believe this is perfectly circular reasoning. Kind of like saying, something to the effect of, If God can do anything, can He create an object so heavy He can't lift it? You're trying to fit an infinite God into a finite tulip.

Yo, TwinCrier, been a while since I've met you on the threads. Pitty that we have to meat on this topic, so please don't get too heated about what I am going to unfold:

It's not so much the case of "if" or "can", but that he has done. God has declared his son author and creator of everything, also under whom all things are subjected. These are absolute statements. I just put up a funny little statement and premise thingy for the existential logicians out there. Something for them to get their heads around.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

You obviously have a problem with my premise, but I still don't see how you have proven it logically unsound. Maybe if you used A and B in your "newer" and "better" premise, I could understand what you are saying better. I'm not trying to imply that you are stupid or anything, just that it would be a lot easier to understand you if you quoted and corrected more concisely. For example, you could say:

Object A = God
Object B = What God created
Object C = What God didn't create, (i.e. human choice and actions)

Object A foreknew Object B and Object C before they existed, Object B and C are everything else beside Object A, but only created Object B.

But I would obviously say how this is logically inconsistent as, "how could something that existed before everything else (Object A), not have created everything else?"

If God was at the beginning, and everything else procedes from God, then how is it logical to say that choice and human action aren't predetermined.

One could say, if one wanted to be more concise with the idea of free will:

Object A = God
Object B = everything God created
Object C = everything God didn't create

Object A and Object C existed before Object B "In the beginning". Object A created Object B, but did not create Object C, because Object C existed with Object A before Object B.

This may be hard for some to see, but by saying anything that exists wasn't created by Christ and, is in a sense implying that that Object is eternal and infinite.

If anyone thinks I am being inconsistent here, please do tell me.

[Hagios17]

Sure, if the parable has some grounding in reality. ^_^

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm

Not to lay an attack on the whole of modern Baptist peoples out there, but Free will theology was something that fell out of Roman Catholicism.:eek:

[Hagios17]

One thing alot of us Romanist Baptists are forgetting is that Calvin came from Roman Catholicism. He wasn't perfect. He played a role in the killing of some dude yes, and Paul in the role of killing far far more:eek:... He was a sinner no doubt.

but, just like most of the anti-Calvin sites out there, this one you gave Twin is just another not very in depth study of how his theology. The Institutes are a huge mass of infomation and require alot more than attacking him because his nose was too long or he had a funny looking face. Calvin is made out to be like this huge demon that wants to devour our little ones. This situation, I think, needs to be over looked. I can assure you Calvin is far more of a Saint than alot of the self proclaiming Christians back then and now. If God never had risen men like Calvin to stand against the Church of his time and what it was doing and teaching, we'd probably all be Romanists.

[Hagios17]

Not that I don't want to worship the Pontiff and Virgin Mary, its just that the Word has warned me from doing it.

[Hagios17]

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

First off, Christ comes to everyone. Want me to pull some Scripture?

Yes. Its considered arogant to state without motivating, and by "motivate" I mean with scripture.;)

There really isn't any point to pulling Scripture anymore with you people. We all use the same verses, you just twist them to mean what you want them to mean.

Interpretation from context or isolation?

Try this: Using your brain, think of how God could just make men good and evil. He would choose all his "homeboys" and let them live an everlasting life with Him in Heaven. Then, He would send the rest of His youngin's to Hell because He MADE THEM BAD. Does that make sense? God punishing man for sins that God made them commit?

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 1:23-24

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:6-7

Its about Jesus bru.

Of course it doesn't. That's why I'm using my Brain to understand this and you're in your boat not using your brain. ...You're using John Calvin's brain.

Whose mind do you have? "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:25

What good is that? John Calvin didn't live with, nor did He learn from Christ. Oh, but Christ's Apostles did. And guess what? None of them speak of predestination the way Calvinists put it. Neither did any of the Apostles Disciples!

Who cares about the Apostles and Prophets, who cares about Mary, Joseph and James... who cares about John Calvin. Bru I haven't even read his institutes, and even if I do one day it doesn't mean I am a Calvinist. You rant about how dumb Calvin is, but you probably haven't even read his institutes. And if you haven't would this all just make you out to be the fool. I mean, a man speaks and speaks and speaks, but how relevant is that which he says to the context. How relevant are your words, or are they just biast and prejudice?

How crazy would I be if I believed a man that lived 1000 years after Christ than to believe God's Word, His Apostles and the Apostles Disciples?

...I wouldn't. That'd be the smart thing to do.

Christ has had the most effect on me spsucj, not Calvin and not even the Apostles. They are all dead and gone. They cannot help me, only Jesus can help me to figure out salvation. And if I am truly a fool then it's not Calvin's fault it is mine own, because I put my trust and faith in myself... for even i am God's creation.

Do works keep me in Salvation? Of course not, Ron. When did I say that? I said that WE HAVE A PART IN OUR SALVATION. God cannot make us believe, repent, nor can He make us do His will. Why? Because He isn't Supreme, Ron? No, BECAUSE HE GIVES US THAT CHOICE.

1. Belief-faith is a gift of God - Ephessians 2:8
2. Repentence is a gift of God - 2 Timothy 2:25
3. To do the will of God is a calling - 1 Corinthians 1:1
4. The will of man is not active in salvation - John 1:13;
5. The will of man prevents him from going to God - Romans 3:10-18

Want some Scripture? Oh, but we both use the SAME book yet we both believe in two totally different things. Maybe Calvinists should start using logic a little more and stop using Calvin.

All I have been quoting at this stage is the Bible:confused:

Sorry for being harsh, but I'm fed up with speaking to rocks. Well, at least these rocks talk back.

Already forgive you. I know what it is like to get a bit heated, and what it feels like when a bunch of people are deleting your threads, and calling you a non-chistian, and ignoring you when you ask them why they deleted your threads, etc.... never mind that though.

Oh, and funny that you call us rocks lol. Jesus called himself the rock, and rock of "offence". Also he was a rock of foolishness right... so in a sense the Gospel we preach is an offence to you, but I don't want to imply you are unsaved or anything. The Gospel was an offence to Paul when he was in ungodliness. Ugh... honestly I don't see the need for carnality. Scripture is here. You either deal with it or continue as does the Pharisee... ignoring, ignoring... ignoring.

Anybody smell a referral?

Still dont know what a referral is... what is a referral?

[Hagios17]

The Apostles DID teach Reformed theology--just read Romans 8-9 to see that.

However, I see that this is a debate that will not be resolved since you are not willing to look at things with an open heart. Many years ago, I believed much as you did. Then, I was introduced to Reformed theology. I was interested, but it was so very different from anything that I had ever learned before. I prayed, "Lord, if it is true, then let me believe it." God eventually convinced me that Calvinism was completely biblical. Calvinism is not about John Calvin, it is not about a bunch of Reformers, it is about God and His glory and the way that He has chosen to save a people unto himself. An elevated view of man says that man, although sinful, has enough good in him to choose God. God, however, has revealed that man is utterly sinful and wicked--there is none that does good, no not one. Calvinists realize this and know that it is God ALONE who is responsible for their salvation. By grace alone. . .Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me. Perhaps it should be reworded--by grace and my choice--Amazing choice that chose salvation for me.

If you would like to take the glory for your salvation, fine. The Calvinists, however, give ALL the glory to God, to whom be all glory forever and ever, amen.

Amen. All glory to Yeshua... barberic and foolishness, but life everlasting to those who are in Christ.

[Hagios17]

I'm not implying anyone is saved through the life everlasting extract. I do believe it is possible that a child of God can live a life that denies his calling. He is saved but just doesn't externally believe it. He is backsliden, but the mind of Christ governs him. What a truly wonderful God we have.

[Seeker of the Truth]

I'm not implying anyone is saved through the life everlasting extract. I do believe it is possible that a child of God can live a life that denies his calling. He is saved but just doesn't externally believe it. He is backsliden, but the mind of Christ governs him. What a truly wonderful God we have.
That's wonderful?

How about all the people that are dying and are going to Hell because Jesus doesn't want to make them choose the right stuff?

Hagios. I believe you stand on your own in your beliefs. I've never heard of anybody thinking that God controls everything, even right down to our thoughts and actions. That'd just contradict our purpose on earth and why God created man in the first place.

[Hagios17]

That's wonderful?

How about all the people that are dying and are going to Hell because Jesus doesn't want to make them choose the right stuff?

Hagios. I believe you stand on your own in your beliefs. I've never heard of anybody thinking that God controls everything, even right down to our thoughts and actions. That'd just contradict our purpose on earth and why God created man in the first place.

Well, if the world is against Josh, then Josh is against the world.

[Hagios17]

Who was it that said that again...

[Hagios17]

yes! athenasius.

[JPPT1974]

Good way of putting it my friend!

[Hagios17]

Good way of putting it my friend!

lol

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." [Matthew 5:11-12]