Rosary

[Tomoz]

Do Lutherans pray the rosary?

[DaRev]

Do Lutherans pray the rosary?

For the most part, no. However, there is a Lutheran form of the rosary.

Check here: http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html

[Jim47]

Try OBOB, you'll find a few there :)

[Tomoz]

Thankyou for your replies guys - DaRev that's a really interesting link!!

[C.F.W. Walther]

What's the verse? " Do not pray in vain repitetion as the heathen do." or something like that.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I do. Especially on planes during takeoff.

However, the Lutheran version of the rosary I use is centered on the Jesus Prayer, or Prayer of the Heart (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner), not the Hail Mary (it is only said once throughout the 58-some-odd petitions).

[IowaLutheran]

For the most part, no. However, there is a Lutheran form of the rosary.

Check here: http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html

FYI - the person who created that site has just converted to Roman Catholicism.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

FYI - the person who created that site has just converted to Roman Catholicism.


Ouch.

[DaRev]

What's the verse? " Do not pray in vain repitetion as the heathen do." or something like that.

Praying in repetition and praying in vain repetition are two different things.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Praying 10 "Hail Marys" and 20 "Our Fathers" is vain repetition......to me anyway. Just like Liturgy being said for 30 years without thinking about it.

[Edial]

FYI - the person who created that site has just converted to Roman Catholicism.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/
:D :D :)

[Edial]

I do. Especially on planes during takeoff.

...:D :)

[LilLamb219]

Praying 10 "Hail Marys" and 20 "Our Fathers" is vain repetition......to me anyway. Just like Liturgy being said for 30 years without thinking about it.

On their deathbeds, unable to read any longer, that liturgy stuck in the mind is a Godsend :)

[WildStrawberry]

On their deathbeds, unable to read any longer, that liturgy stuck in the mind is a Godsend :)
I wasn't on my deathbed but I can attest to this fact! It sure was a comfort to me when I was in the hospital the past few times.

Kae

[DaRev]

Praying 10 "Hail Marys" and 20 "Our Fathers" is vain repetition......to me anyway. Just like Liturgy being said for 30 years without thinking about it.

Aside from the "Hail Mary" which is another thread topic altogether, "vain" repetition would be reciting prayers repetitively with the thinking that the repetition itself is somehow beneficial. That's called ex opera operato. That is the problem with the Roman Catholic teaching of the Rosary. They believe that the work of repetitive prayer merits grace.

Repeating a prayer or prayers as part of a structured prayer routine is not necessarily a bad thing.

[rd151]

The question is, Why do we need to present our prayers to Mary anyway? When you say Hail Mary full of Grace you are calling out to Mary.Catholics deny this, but the question remains who are you petitioning, Mary or Jesus?

[DaRev]

The question is, Why do we need to present our prayers to Mary anyway? When you say Hail Mary full of Grace you are calling out to Mary.Catholics deny this, but the question remains who are you petitioning, Mary or Jesus?

Luther always taught that it is fitting and proper to give honor to Mary, the mother of God. But it is not fitting to ask her, or any other saint for that matter, for any type of intercession. Scripture teaches that we have one mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus. It also teaches us that we as believers are a "royal priesthood" which means that we can offer our sacrifice of prayer and praise to God directly.

[Plutonius]

Luther always taught that it is fitting and proper to give honor to Mary, the mother of God. But it is not fitting to ask her, or any other saint for that matter, for any type of intercession. Scripture teaches that we have one mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus. It also teaches us that we as believers are a "royal priesthood" which means that we can offer our sacrifice of prayer and praise to God directly.

:amen:

[FriarTuck]

Because it has fallen out of practice among Lutherans, there is no real reason to pray the Rosary. Luther understand that in his day it was useful so long as it was done not as a prayer of intercession but used as a way to meditate and focus on Christ, he did include it when he created his prayer book. I'm going to have to look for citation on that but I'm quite sure about it (It was briefly mentioned in my reform class). I don't think there's any real harm in it, especially if it's being used by a convert who is used to saying it so long as prayer is properly explained to them. Luther was more concerned with what worked for the people.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Aside from the "Hail Mary" which is another thread topic altogether, "vain" repetition would be reciting prayers repetitively with the thinking that the repetition itself is somehow beneficial. That's called ex opera operato. That is the problem with the Roman Catholic teaching of the Rosary. They believe that the work of repetitive prayer merits grace.

Repeating a prayer or prayers as part of a structured prayer routine is not necessarily a bad thing.
I thought the OP is about the rosary not about repeating a structured prayer routine?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Aside from the "Hail Mary" which is another thread topic altogether, "vain" repetition would be reciting prayers repetitively with the thinking that the repetition itself is somehow beneficial. That's called ex opera operato. That is the problem with the Roman Catholic teaching of the Rosary. They believe that the work of repetitive prayer merits grace.

Repeating a prayer or prayers as part of a structured prayer routine is not necessarily a bad thing.

Reposted in complete agreement.

Luther always taught that it is fitting and proper to give honor to Mary, the mother of God. But it is not fitting to ask her, or any other saint for that matter, for any type of intercession. Scripture teaches that we have one mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus. It also teaches us that we as believers are a "royal priesthood" which means that we can offer our sacrifice of prayer and praise to God directly.

Also reposted in complete agreement.

The question is, Why do we need to present our prayers to Mary anyway? When you say Hail Mary full of Grace you are calling out to Mary.Catholics deny this, but the question remains who are you petitioning, Mary or Jesus?

I'm simply quoting Scripture. The pretridentine Hail Mary that Lutherans use omits the non-Scriptural 'pray for us sinners, now and at the hour for our death.'

Moreover (and I know I'm going to get slammed for this), I agree with the respect paid to Mary by Catholics in recognizing her as the Queen of Heaven. It's not because she's divine or a vessel of grace or an intermediary, but simply because the mother, not the wife, of the Davidic king was the queen in ancient Israel. So by being the mother of Christ's entire hypostatic person (Theotokos), and by action in the office of the Davidic king, it does seem logical to conclue that Mary is in some capacity the queen of the Kingdom of God.

So I'm not really praying to her. I'm recognizing Christ's singular personhood and his authority of the Davidic king by saying to the queen, 'Hail.'

[rd151]

There is a difference between praying for someone and praying to someone. If one is praying the Rosary then they are praying to Mary, plain and simple. A Lutheran who prays the Rosary might as well become a Roman Catholic in my book. For Mary has become their 2nd mediator everytime they recite the Rosary.

[DaRev]

There is a difference between praying for someone and praying to someone. If one is praying the Rosary then they are praying to Mary, plain and simple. A Lutheran who prays the Rosary might as well become a Roman Catholic in my book. For Mary has become their 2nd mediator everytime they recite the Rosary.

Unless they pray the Rosary without the "Hail Mary."

[KimLCMS]

Luther always taught that it is fitting and proper to give honor to Mary, the mother of God. But it is not fitting to ask her, or any other saint for that matter, for any type of intercession. Scripture teaches that we have one mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus. It also teaches us that we as believers are a "royal priesthood" which means that we can offer our sacrifice of prayer and praise to God directly.
I'm not trying to argue with you because I agree with what you are saying, but I have a question. As far as I know it is ok to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us. Is it wrong to ask "the saints" to pray for us because we don't really know who is in heaven?

I know the RCC would say that they do know who some of the people in heaven are, so it's ok to ask for their intercession. I'm just curious about this.

What do you think?

[DaRev]

I'm not trying to argue with you because I agree with what you are saying, but I have a question. As far as I know it is ok to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us. Is it wrong to ask "the saints" to pray for us because we don't really know who is in heaven?

I know the RCC would say that they do know who some of the people in heaven are, so it's ok to ask for their intercession. I'm just curious about this.

What do you think?

Asking a friend or a family member or anyone else to pray for you would be the same as asking them anything. You speak to them. To ask someone who is dead requires "prayer" which would be considered "praying to someone other than God."

Besides, there is no indication that the souls in heaven can even hear us.

[rd151]

The answer lies in a question to you.Is Jesus alone sufficient for all your spiritual and prayer needs? I maintain he is.Read Colossians 2:10. Also Jesus is the only mediator God accepts between man and himself. Not Mary or any other departed saint who has died and now is in heaven.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Asking a friend or a family member or anyone else to pray for you would be the same as asking them anything. You speak to them. To ask someone who is dead requires "prayer" which would be considered "praying to someone other than God."

Besides, there is no indication that the souls in heaven can even hear us.

Agreed. There is no indication that they can hear us.

The only time I think we truly commune with the living saints in heaven is when we approach the throne of grace as a community of believers through Word and Sacrament. Even then, there's no guarentee that they are aware of our individual petitions. We simply rise up with them and all the host of heaven singing holy, holy, holy...

[KimLCMS]

Asking a friend or a family member or anyone else to pray for you would be the same as asking them anything. You speak to them. To ask someone who is dead requires "prayer" which would be considered "praying to someone other than God."

Besides, there is no indication that the souls in heaven can even hear us.
That is helpful. Thank you. I need to write down responses like that in a book somewhere, because I sometimes have a hard time putting the words together when I'm put on the spot.

[IowaLutheran]

There is a difference between praying for someone and praying to someone. If one is praying the Rosary then they are praying to Mary, plain and simple. A Lutheran who prays the Rosary might as well become a Roman Catholic in my book. For Mary has become their 2nd mediator everytime they recite the Rosary.


I do not pray the Hail Mary. But I'm going to play devil's advocate:

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

This is straight out of Luke's Gospel. Praying this is no different than prayer and meditation based on any other passage of Scripture - its called lectio divina.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God"

Nothing wrong with this - Mary is called the "Mother of God" in the Lutheran Confessions. See Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration).

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

Isn't this simply a request for Mary to pray for us? I see no grammatical evidence of this phrase being a prayer "to" Mary. It seems to be a simple request for Mary to "pray for us".

Article XXI of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession acknowledges that Mary "prays for the Church". It goes on to criticize the excessive Marian/saint devotions that had developed and emphasizes that Jesus is our sole mediator. But that does not negate the continuing prayers that Mary offers on behalf of the Church.

[synger]

I use a rosary. But like another poster also does, I use the Jesus Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer) rather than the "Hail Mary." I find contemplative prayer to be an extremely powerful tool in the prayer "toolbox."

That being said, please keep in mind that one of the prime focuses of the rosary is not the repetition, but rather on the meditation on the mysteries (http://www.medjugorje.org/rosary.htm) of Jesus life, death, and resurrection that accompany the prayers. While praying a decade of prayers (10 repetitions), you meditate upon a Bible story from Jesus' life. Sometimes I will memorize a Psalm to meditate upon between the decades. During Lent, it's been Psalm 51. Repeating that four times every night goes a long way toward "meditating upon it day and night". I find myself mulling over bits of it during the day when I'm working, too.

I've been doing this as I teach my daughter to "pray the beads" as we call it. She tells me a Bible story that she wants to pray, and each decade of the beads we focus on another aspect of the story. For instance, we had watched VeggieTales "Josh and the Big Wall" one afternoon, so that night she wanted to pray about the Israelites coming into the promised land. The first decade we meditated on how they were slaves in Egypt and God brought them forth into the desert. The second decade we meditated upon how God gave them water and food in the desert when they grumbled. The third was how He led them by a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, and when He moved they moved and when He stopped they stopped. The fourth was when they saw the promised land but came back and said they couldn't possibly win, and because they didn't trust GOd they were sent back into the wilderness for 40 years. And the fifth decade we meditated on them finally doing what God said, even if it sounded strange to them, and the walls of Jericho fell.

I don't think praying the rosary takes the place of extemporaneous prayers, or Lectio Divina, or some of the treasury of amazing written prayers from our rich Christian heritage. But it is one more option.

[KimLCMS]

I use a rosary. But like another poster also does, I use the Jesus Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer) rather than the "Hail Mary." I find contemplative prayer to be an extremely powerful tool in the prayer "toolbox."

That being said, please keep in mind that one of the prime focuses of the rosary is not the repetition, but rather on the meditation on the mysteries (http://www.medjugorje.org/rosary.htm) of Jesus life, death, and resurrection that accompany the prayers. While praying a decade of prayers (10 repetitions), you meditate upon a Bible story from Jesus' life. Sometimes I will memorize a Psalm to meditate upon between the decades. During Lent, it's been Psalm 51. Repeating that four times every night goes a long way toward "meditating upon it day and night". I find myself mulling over bits of it during the day when I'm working, too.

I've been doing this as I teach my daughter to "pray the beads" as we call it. She tells me a Bible story that she wants to pray, and each decade of the beads we focus on another aspect of the story. For instance, we had watched VeggieTales "Josh and the Big Wall" one afternoon, so that night she wanted to pray about the Israelites coming into the promised land. The first decade we meditated on how they were slaves in Egypt and God brought them forth into the desert. The second decade we meditated upon how God gave them water and food in the desert when they grumbled. The third was how He led them by a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, and when He moved they moved and when He stopped they stopped. The fourth was when they saw the promised land but came back and said they couldn't possibly win, and because they didn't trust GOd they were sent back into the wilderness for 40 years. And the fifth decade we meditated on them finally doing what God said, even if it sounded strange to them, and the walls of Jericho fell.

I don't think praying the rosary takes the place of extemporaneous prayers, or Lectio Divina, or some of the treasury of amazing written prayers from our rich Christian heritage. But it is one more option.
That's a great post. I wasn't aware of any Lutheran's using the rosery at all before this!

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't think children can make the small deferenciations between why a Lutheran would use a roasay and why the RC uses Rosaries. All I can see is that it blurs the distinction between the 2 denoms and confuses the child. I would think that there would be other "visual" things like "postems" that would remind us of our daily reflections.

Not trying to start an argument just expressing my 2 cents worth.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I don't think children can make the small deferenciations between why a Lutheran would use a roasay and why the RC uses Rosaries. All I can see is that it blurs the distinction between the 2 denoms and confuses the child. I would think that there would be other "visual" things like "postems" that would remind us of our daily reflections.

Not trying to start an argument just expressing my 2 cents worth.

That's actually a good point. Children aren't really much for nuance and subtlety.

[KimLCMS]

I don't think children can make the small deferenciations between why a Lutheran would use a roasay and why the RC uses Rosaries. All I can see is that it blurs the distinction between the 2 denoms and confuses the child. I would think that there would be other "visual" things like "postems" that would remind us of our daily reflections.

Not trying to start an argument just expressing my 2 cents worth.
If they only know the Lutheran faith they wouldn't get it confussed with the RC.

[synger]

I guess the way I look at it, it is not the various practices that make a person Catholic or Lutheran but rather what they teach, preach, and confess.

Praying with beads is just a tool -- one with a very long history even outside the most-obvious Dominican rosary prayers to Mary. It doesn't make me Catholic.

Fasting is a tool. It doesn't make me Orthodox (some of the fasting-est Christians I've ever met).

Bible study and memorization is a tool. It doesn't make me Baptist (some of the most Bible-reading Christians I've ever met).

And having a well-worn casserole dish doesn't make me insert-potluck-loving-denomination-here.

My daughter wanted to learn to pray the beads because she sees me do it. Just as she has now begun lifting up a short prayer of mercy whenever she hears an emergency vehicle siren -- because that is what I and my husband do. She has never seen a Catholic praying a rosary that I know of. I figure that by the time she associates it with Catholic prayer, she will also associate it with Lutheran prayer (especially since we use the Catechism for some of the prayers we pray on the beads).

Perhaps I am not too worried about seeming "too Catholic" because I am not a born-and-raised Lutheran. It is because of and through my study of Christian history, practices, and doctrines that God has led me to the Lutheran church. I am fairly clear about the history of this practice or that, and that is part of what I teach my daughter. Personally, I think we do ourselves a disservice when we ignore the rich heritage of Christian devotional and worship practices before our "modern" times. We must, of course, prayerfully test each piece against Scripture and right doctrine. But there are many that pass the test, and can continue to edify us and enrich our lives.

I believe bead-prayer can be one of those tools, within certain limits.

[IowaLutheran]

Good points, synger.

Most people associate making the sign of the cross with Catholics, but that should not stop Lutherans from doing it.

[Edial]

I do not pray the Hail Mary. But I'm going to play devil's advocate:

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

This is straight out of Luke's Gospel. Praying this is no different than prayer and meditation based on any other passage of Scripture - its called lectio divina.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God"

Nothing wrong with this - Mary is called the "Mother of God" in the Lutheran Confessions. See Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration).

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

Isn't this simply a request for Mary to pray for us? I see no grammatical evidence of this phrase being a prayer "to" Mary. It seems to be a simple request for Mary to "pray for us".

Article XXI of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession acknowledges that Mary "prays for the Church". It goes on to criticize the excessive Marian/saint devotions that had developed and emphasizes that Jesus is our sole mediator. But that does not negate the continuing prayers that Mary offers on behalf of the Church.
I know that Mary is called a Mother of God in the confessions.

I have a problem with that term.

God (theos) has no mother.

Now, we have this verse ...
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

The word "Lord" is kurios, meaning Master.
That same word kurios is also addressed to regular people of royalty in the NT.
(Translators separate it with a capitalized L)

We clearly know that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
But to say that Mary is mother of God? ...
Mary is mother of our Lord.

Words "Lord" kurios is a title.
Word "God" theos is a unique identification of the eternal and unique Being.

God has no mother.

Thanks,
Ed

[IowaLutheran]

These explanations are helpful:

"The title "Theotokos" specifically excludes the understanding of Mary as Mother of God in the eternal sense. Christians believe that God is the cause of all, with neither origin or source, and thus without mother. This stands in contrast to classical Greco-Roman religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_religion) in particular, where a number of divine female figures appear as mother of other divinities, demi-gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-god), or heroes. For example, Juno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_%28mythology%29) was revered as the mother of Vulcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28mythology%29); Aphrodite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite), the mother of Aeneas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas).
On the other hand, Christians believe the Son of God is begotten (born) of God the Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father) from all eternity (see Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) and Nicene Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed)), but is born in time of Mary, the Theotokos. "Theotokos," then, refers to the incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation_%28Christianity%29), when the divine person of God the Son took on human nature in addition to his pre-existing divine nature, this being made possible through Mary's cooperation. Christians do not believe that she is the mother of God the Father in any sense (who, being without origin or beginning, has no mother), nor is she the mother of Jesus from all eternity, but only from the moment he entered into her womb and his incarnation began.
Since mainstream Christianity understands Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully human, they call Mary "Theotokos" to affirm the fullness of God's incarnation. The Council of Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ephesus) decreed, in opposition to those who denied Mary the title Theotokos ("the one who gives birth to God") but called her Christotokos ("the one who gives birth to Christ"), that Mary is Theotokos because her Son, Christ, is one person who is both God and man, divine and human. As Cyril of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria) wrote, "I am amazed that there are some who are entirely in doubt as to whether the holy Virgin should be called Theotokos or not. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how is the holy Virgin who gave [him] birth, not God-bearer [Theotokos]?" (Epistle 1, to the monks of Egypt; PG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrologia_Graeca) 77:13B). Thus the significance of the title "Theotokos" lies more in what it says about Jesus than in what it says about Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

If Mary is not the "Mother of God", then we are dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one human, and one divine. That view, held by Nestorians, was rejected:

"The use of Theotokos was formally affirmed at the Third Ecumenical Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Ecumenical_Council) held at Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephesus) in 431 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/431). The competing view (advocated by Nestorius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius), then Patriarch of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople)) was that Mary should be called Christotokos, meaning "Mother of Christ," to restrict her role to the mother of Christ's humanity only and not his divine nature.
Nestorius's opponents, led by Cyril of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria), viewed this as dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. Such a notion was unacceptable, since (in the Orthodox view) by destroying the perfect union of divine and human nature in Christ, it sabotaged the fullness of the incarnation and, by extension, the salvation of humanity. Nestorius's view was anathematised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema) by the Council as heresy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy), (see Nestorianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism)), and the title "Theotokos" for Mary was affirmed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

[DaRev]

I do not pray the Hail Mary. But I'm going to play devil's advocate:

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

This is straight out of Luke's Gospel. Praying this is no different than prayer and meditation based on any other passage of Scripture - its called lectio divina.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God"

Nothing wrong with this - Mary is called the "Mother of God" in the Lutheran Confessions. See Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration).

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

Isn't this simply a request for Mary to pray for us? I see no grammatical evidence of this phrase being a prayer "to" Mary. It seems to be a simple request for Mary to "pray for us".

Article XXI of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession acknowledges that Mary "prays for the Church". It goes on to criticize the excessive Marian/saint devotions that had developed and emphasizes that Jesus is our sole mediator. But that does not negate the continuing prayers that Mary offers on behalf of the Church.

You don't see the statement "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us..." as a request directly to Mary??? Who, then, is the request being made to? God? Since when is Mary God??
:doh:
I suggest you read it again.

[DaRev]

I know that Mary is called a Mother of God in the confessions.

I have a problem with that term.

God (theos) has no mother.

Now, we have this verse ...
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

The word "Lord" is kurios, meaning Master.
That same word kurios is also addressed to regular people of royalty in the NT.
(Translators separate it with a capitalized L)

We clearly know that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
But to say that Mary is mother of God? ...
Mary is mother of our Lord.

Words "Lord" kurios is a title.
Word "God" theos is a unique identification of the eternal and unique Being.

God has no mother.

Thanks,
Ed

But the word "Lord" (kurios in Greek) also refers to "Adonai" in the OT, which is a word used in place of Yahewh. The very first creed from the NT, "Jesus is Lord," is a statement of Christ's divinity, basically saying that "Jesus is Yahweh." So Mary, as the mother of our Lord, is the same as saying that Mary is the mother of Yahweh in the person of Jesus Christ.
The divine and human natures of Christ cannot be divided. Either Mary is the mother of God, or Jesus is not God.

[IowaLutheran]

You don't see the statement "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us..." as a request directly to Mary??? Who, then, is the request being made to? God? Since when is Mary God??
:doh:
I suggest you read it again.

No, I would suggest you read my comment again.

The request for prayer is made to Mary. That is different than a prayer "to" Mary as if Mary was God.

If I ask you, "DaRev, pray for me", am I praying to you? Of course not.

[Edial]

These explanations are helpful:

"The title "Theotokos" specifically excludes the understanding of Mary as Mother of God in the eternal sense. Christians believe that God is the cause of all, with neither origin or source, and thus without mother. This stands in contrast to classical Greco-Roman religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_religion) in particular, where a number of divine female figures appear as mother of other divinities, demi-gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-god), or heroes. For example, Juno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_%28mythology%29) was revered as the mother of Vulcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28mythology%29); Aphrodite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite), the mother of Aeneas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas).
On the other hand, Christians believe the Son of God is begotten (born) of God the Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father) from all eternity (see Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) and Nicene Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed)), but is born in time of Mary, the Theotokos. "Theotokos," then, refers to the incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation_%28Christianity%29), when the divine person of God the Son took on human nature in addition to his pre-existing divine nature, this being made possible through Mary's cooperation. Christians do not believe that she is the mother of God the Father in any sense (who, being without origin or beginning, has no mother), nor is she the mother of Jesus from all eternity, but only from the moment he entered into her womb and his incarnation began.
Since mainstream Christianity understands Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully human, they call Mary "Theotokos" to affirm the fullness of God's incarnation. The Council of Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ephesus) decreed, in opposition to those who denied Mary the title Theotokos ("the one who gives birth to God") but called her Christotokos ("the one who gives birth to Christ"), that Mary is Theotokos because her Son, Christ, is one person who is both God and man, divine and human. As Cyril of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria) wrote, "I am amazed that there are some who are entirely in doubt as to whether the holy Virgin should be called Theotokos or not. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how is the holy Virgin who gave [him] birth, not God-bearer [Theotokos]?" (Epistle 1, to the monks of Egypt; PG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrologia_Graeca) 77:13B). Thus the significance of the title "Theotokos" lies more in what it says about Jesus than in what it says about Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

If Mary is not the "Mother of God", then we are dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one human, and one divine. That view, held by Nestorians, was rejected:

"The use of Theotokos was formally affirmed at the Third Ecumenical Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Ecumenical_Council) held at Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephesus) in 431 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/431). The competing view (advocated by Nestorius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius), then Patriarch of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople)) was that Mary should be called Christotokos, meaning "Mother of Christ," to restrict her role to the mother of Christ's humanity only and not his divine nature.
Nestorius's opponents, led by Cyril of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria), viewed this as dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. Such a notion was unacceptable, since (in the Orthodox view) by destroying the perfect union of divine and human nature in Christ, it sabotaged the fullness of the incarnation and, by extension, the salvation of humanity. Nestorius's view was anathematised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema) by the Council as heresy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy), (see Nestorianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism)), and the title "Theotokos" for Mary was affirmed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos
Throughout the history commentators learned skills to explain and defend about anything. :)
From what I remember, Mother of God came to be to combat movements stating that Christ is not God.
So, they came up with a term "mother of God".

And obviously, it had negative theological side-effects throughout the Christian history where Mary became more than she personally cared to become.
Instead of the very simple Biblical formula "I should decrease so He increases", the variables flipped.

That humble, decent and righteous woman is unduly magnified to this degree, which evolved from our Traditional definitions.

Mother of God is not a correct statement, as far as Scriptures are concerned.

This is a correct statement -
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Lord is a title meaning Master.

God has no mother.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

But the word "Lord" (kurios in Greek) also refers to "Adonai" in the OT, which is a word used in place of Yahewh. The very first creed from the NT, "Jesus is Lord," is a statement of Christ's divinity, basically saying that "Jesus is Yahweh." So Mary, as the mother of our Lord, is the same as saying that Mary is the mother of Yahweh in the person of Jesus Christ.
The divine and human natures of Christ cannot be divided. Either Mary is the mother of God, or Jesus is not God.
Theological speculations are often bordering on philosophical trains of thought.

To state "Either Mary is the mother of God, or Jesus is not God" is to weave in a definition to Mary that is outside of Scriptures and then demand a conclusion.

Mary is mother of our Lord - "Lord" is a title.

We should leave it at that.

God (theos) has no mother, neither human nor divine.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

No, I would suggest you read my comment again.

The request for prayer is made to Mary. That is different than a prayer "to" Mary as if Mary was God.

If I ask you, "DaRev, pray for me", am I praying to you? Of course not.

Of course you are not praying to me. I'm not dead. You can make a request of me anytime.

But making a "request" to a soul in heaven is indeed prayer. How else do you ask them something? Do you jump on an elevator and ask them in person? Do you make a collect long distance phone call?

A "request" to Mary or any other soul in heaven is prayer. The Scriptures teach us that prayer to anyone bu the one true God is idolatry.

[DaRev]

Theological speculations are often bordering on philosophical trains of thought.

To state "Either Mary is the mother of God, or Jesus is not God" is to weave in a definition to Mary that is outside of Scriptures and then demand a conclusion.

Mary is mother of our Lord - "Lord" is a title.

We should leave it at that.

God (theos) has no mother, neither human nor divine.

Thanks,
Ed

Jesus is God. To say that Mary is not the mother of God either says that Mary is not Jesus' mother, or that Jesus is not God. The fact is that Scripture affirms both of these to be true.

You are not a Confessional, are you Ed?

[Plutonius]

Jesus is God. To say that Mary is not the mother of God either says that Mary is not Jesus' mother, or that Jesus is not God. The fact is that Scripture affirms both of these to be true.

You are not a Confessional, are you Ed?
Good Post!

[synger]

About asking dead brethren to pray for us:

26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. 27] For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ.

About how we should think of Mary:


10] 6. Hence we believe, teach, and confess that God is man and man is God, which could not be if the divine and human natures had in deed and truth absolutely no communion with one another.
11] For how could the man, the son of Mary, in truth be called or be God, or the Son of God the Most High, if His humanity were not personally united with the Son of God, and He thus had realiter, that is, in deed and truth, nothing in common with Him except only the name of God?
12] 7. Hence we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not a mere man and no more, but the true Son of God; therefore she also is rightly called and truly is the mother of God.


I understand that Mary is the mother of my Lord. She is also the mother of God. Christ is both, and can't be separated one from the other. Even Thomas, in his great confession, did not separate them "My Lord and my God!" John 20:24-29


I don't pretend to understand it. It's a Mystery. But I'm not comfortable denigrating Mary to just the mother of Christ's "human side."

[Edial]

Jesus is God. To say that Mary is not the mother of God either says that Mary is not Jesus' mother, or that Jesus is not God. The fact is that Scripture affirms both of these to be true.

You are not a Confessional, are you Ed?

To say that Mary is mother of God is not a Scriptural statement.

Mary is mother of our Lord.

God is theos - eternal and unique.

Christ is fully God and fully man.

Christ was born and Christ died and Christ rose again.

Yet we know that God did not and cannot die.

Mary is mother of our Lord, kurios being a title.

God (theos) has no mother.

Christ was called God and is God.

But the Scriptures refer to Mary as mother of our Lord (not mother of our God).

When we talk about mysteries it is better not to define them outside of the Scriptures.

Theology should not add to the Scriptures.

Scriptures are carefully defined for a purpose, eternal purpose.

Theology that is added to the Scriptures is called Tradition.
Traditions change, evolve, even confront the very Word of God, since Traditions can be manipulated by times, cultures, man.

(And being Confessional does not necessarily mean being Scriptural in all cases).

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

...
I don't pretend to understand it. It's a Mystery. But I'm not comfortable denigrating Mary to just the mother of Christ's "human side."

Some might specifically state that she is just a mother of Christ's "human side".

I am not saying that.

I am saying that Mary of the mother of our Lord.

I do not understand the rest - it's a mystery.

But I also know that eternal God has no mother. He was there before she was.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

To say that Mary is mother of God is not a Scriptural statement.

Mary is mother of our Lord.

God is theos - eternal and unique.

Christ is fully God and fully man.

Christ was born and Christ died and Christ rose again.

Yet we know that God did not and cannot die.

Mary is mother of our Lord, kurios being a title.

God (theos) has no mother.

Christ was called God and is God.

But the Scriptures refer to Mary as mother of our Lord (not mother of our God).

When we talk about mysteries it is better not to define them outside of the Scriptures.

Theology should not add to the Scriptures.

Scriptures are carefully defined for a purpose, eternal purpose.

Theology that is added to the Scriptures is called Tradition.
Traditions change, evolve, even confront the very Word of God, since Traditions can be manipulated by times, cultures, man.

(And being Confessional does not necessarily mean being Scriptural in all cases).

Thanks,
Ed

Well, then I guess we have to stop referring to God as Triune, since that is not explicitly "Scriptural", either.

[Edial]

Well, then I guess we have to stop referring to God as Triune, since that is not explicitly "Scriptural", either.
In the Bible,
Father is called God.
Son is called God.
Holy Spirit is called God.

And it states that God is one.
And it states that there is one God.
Hence, doctrine of Trinity.

All these are plain and direct statements in the Bible.

True doctrine is based on plain statements of the Bible.

Mary is specifically called mother of our Lord in the Bible.
To modify that into "mother of God", conflicts with the fact that God has no mother.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

Jesus is God...hence, Mary is the Mother of God.

[DaRev]

Jesus died on the cross... hence, God died.

[Edial]

Jesus is God...hence, Mary is the Mother of God.
So you do not see a scriptural problem with that, although the Bible carefully avoids that term ...

[DaRev]

So let's see here...

Jesus is God, but he stops being God when He is born. Then He starts being God again for a while, but stops being God when He dies on the cross, and then at some point He starts being God again.

I know there is a heresy in there someplace.

[DaRev]

So you do not see a scriptural problem with that, although the Bible carefully avoids that term ...

...just like the Bible carefully avoids the term "Trinity"...

[LilLamb219]

Ed, you can't split the natures of Jesus. Jesus is 100% man and 100% God...at the same time. Mary bore Jesus (who is 100% man and 100% God.) She is the mother of God.

[Crankhandle]

Since mainstream Christianity understands Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully human, they call Mary "Theotokos" to affirm the fullness of God's incarnation. The Council of Ephesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ephesus) decreed, in opposition to those who denied Mary the title Theotokos ("the one who gives birth to God") but called her Christotokos ("the one who gives birth to Christ"), that Mary is Theotokos because her Son, Christ, is one person who is both God and man, divine and human. As Cyril of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria) wrote, "I am amazed that there are some who are entirely in doubt as to whether the holy Virgin should be called Theotokos or not. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how is the holy Virgin who gave [him] birth, not God-bearer [Theotokos]?" (Epistle 1, to the monks of Egypt; PG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrologia_Graeca) 77:13B). Thus the significance of the title "Theotokos" lies more in what it says about Jesus than in what it says about Mary.

I think this is might be helpful to the discussion.

Cranky

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

This is a correct statement -
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Lord is a title meaning Master.


No no, Lord means Yahweh- the more sacred name of God. Mary is the mother of the Lord is actually more an affront than saying Mary is the mother of God.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

This is a correct statement -
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Lord is a title meaning Master.


No no, Lord means Yahweh- the more sacred name of God. Mary is the mother of the Lord is actually more an affront than saying Mary is the mother of God.

The attributes of Christ are assigned to the entirety of the person of Christ. Christ may be divine only according to his divine nature, but he is fully divine throughout his person, in and through his humanity. And so Mary, being the mother of his person, is the mother of God.

[Edial]

So let's see here...

Jesus is God, but he stops being God when He is born. Then He starts being God again for a while, but stops being God when He dies on the cross, and then at some point He starts being God again.

I know there is a heresy in there someplace.
You might want to try dropping your nets the other side of the boat. :)

[Edial]

Jesus died on the cross... hence, God died.
This is incredible.

Is that what is taught at the Lutheran seminaries? Eternal God died?

[DaRev]

This is incredible.

Is that what is taught at the Lutheran seminaries? Eternal God died?

In the Person of Jesus Christ, yes.

Jesus never stops being God and Man.

[C.F.W. Walther]

This is incredible.

Is that what is taught at the Lutheran seminaries? Eternal God died?
Even though there are some disputes going on within the LCMS about that issue, Yes---that is what we believe.

[Edial]

Everyone stop, ... please.

Are you saying that there was time that eternal God ever die?

[DaRev]

Everyone stop, ... please.

Are you saying that there was time that eternal God ever die?

The two natures of Christ are NEVER seperated. Thus when Jesus died on the cross, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, died. Thus, God died.

I believe what you are espousing, Ed, is the heresy known as Modalism, which alludes that Christ's divine nature was only part-time.

[porterross]

This is incredible.

Is that what is taught at the Lutheran seminaries? Eternal God died?


He is Risen, Ed!

[Edial]

I would appreciate comments from others.

Did God die?

[seajoy]

No no, Lord means Yahweh- the more sacred name of God. Mary is the mother of the Lord is actually more an affront than saying Mary is the mother of God.

The attributes of Christ are assigned to the entirety of the person of Christ. Christ may be divine only according to his divine nature, but he is fully divine throughout his person, in and through his humanity. And so Mary, being the mother of his person, is the mother of God.
LORD in capitol letters (in Scripture), means Yaweh...correct?

[porterross]

Yes, God, the Son, died. We accept this by faith, even though it is beyond our comprehension of the corporeal.
This is most certainly true.

[seajoy]

Jesus never ever stopped being God.
He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[LilLamb219]

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/Office%20of%20the%20President/Did%20all%20of%20God%20die%20in%20Christ.pdf

If you can view pdf files, here is a great one called Did All of God Die in Christ? It's by the LCMS

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

LORD in capitol letters (in Scripture), means Yaweh...correct?

Correct, whereas Lord is non-full caps is Adonai. And in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament that the New Testament authors used, both Adonai and Yahweh are translated Kyrios- the word translated Lord in the New Testament, as in Lord Jesus Christ (Kyrios Iesous Khristos).

I would appreciate comments from others.

Did God die?

Yes, the fullness of God, the Divine and Eternal Almighty Son, Second Person of the Trinity, died on the cross...

...aaaaaand was resurrected the following Sunday morning (kinda key...).

[Edial]

Jesus never ever stopped being God.
He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.
That's correct. He never stopped being God.

[porterross]

That's correct. He never stopped being God.
Of course not, but He did die....for us!

[Edial]

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/Office%20of%20the%20President/Did%20all%20of%20God%20die%20in%20Christ.pdf

If you can view pdf files, here is a great one called Did All of God Die in Christ? It's by the LCMS
I read this article twice.

They did not refer to any Scriptures.

I find this to be philosophically based while depending on a mystery of understanding the union of both natures.

I really start disliking theology - I see philosophical conclusions making claims that are at par with the Scriptures while having none to support it's conclusion.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

I read this article twice.

They did not refer to any Scriptures.

I find this to be philosophically based while depending on a mystery of understanding the union of both natures.

I really start disliking theology - I see philosophical conclusions making claims that are at par with the Scriptures while having none to support it's conclusion.

Thanks,
Ed

So you see no Scriptural basis to go against Modalsim? No Scriptural teaching that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% Man?
Wow! To think, Christianity has had it wrong all these centuries!

[Edial]

So you see no Scriptural basis to go against Modalsim? No Scriptural teaching that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% Man?
Wow! To think, Christianity has had it wrong all these centuries!
DaRev, please, do not make a case where there is none.

That article is a work of philosophical application.

[DaRev]

DaRev, please, do not make a case where there is none.

That article is a work of philosophical application.

No, it's Scriptural application. It's basis is on what Scripture teaches us about the natures of Christ.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Heres a site so they can call us heritical Mary worshipers.
http://www.whitestreetbeadcompany.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.shoppingStyle&styleID=LPB&gclid=CPTLhdH9hIsCFR6AWAodQDz-Jw

[Xpycoctomos]

Aside from the "Hail Mary" which is another thread topic altogether, "vain" repetition would be reciting prayers repetitively with the thinking that the repetition itself is somehow beneficial. That's called ex opera operato. That is the problem with the Roman Catholic teaching of the Rosary. They believe that the work of repetitive prayer merits grace.

Repeating a prayer or prayers as part of a structured prayer routine is not necessarily a bad thing.
the Lord's Prayer come to mind... so does the "Lord Have Mercy" and "Lord hear our prayer". If that's not repetitive, I'm not sure what is :)

[Xpycoctomos]

Of course you are not praying to me. I'm not dead. You can make a request of me anytime.

But making a "request" to a soul in heaven is indeed prayer. How else do you ask them something? Do you jump on an elevator and ask them in person? Do you make a collect long distance phone call?

A "request" to Mary or any other soul in heaven is prayer. The Scriptures teach us that prayer to anyone bu the one true God is idolatry.
Although from an Orthodox POV I would love to point out how many misunderstandings there are regarding "prayer to Saints" putting myself in my old Lutheran shoes, I have to ask, where does it say that being dead is a pre-requisite to being able to be prayed to? Christ is not dead. As you know, He is Risen.

I think Iowa Lutheran is keeping a very straight-forward and open mind on all of this and is making very good point. None of it proves that so-called prayer to Saints is effective, but it does take out some of the "worship" that I often assumed was going on when I was a younger Lutheran.

Honestly, how he described it is how we see it. Asking a brother or sister (who has run the race and won- mind you) to pray for us. None of them are dead in our minds (nor in yours).

All you can say is that there is no scriptual evidence that there can be any effectual and individual communication between the Church militant and the Church triumphant. And that's a good point from a Lutheran POV which I will not attempt to question here. But please understand (to anyone reading this) that a good Orthodox and Catholic do not understand "praying" to Saints and to Christ in the same way. ANY kind of communication with God implies that He is God and that not only is that honor and veneration given to Him more special. It's of an entire different kind. The two have nothing to do with each other from the O/C mindset.

Again, I still give you that even from my POV, after I step back into my Lutheran shoes, there is nothing to say that "prayer" to saints in effectual. But even as a lutheran in my "older" days, I found myself forced to see things the way Iowa Lutheran (or at least his devil's advocate :)) sees things. I simply could no longer critize the act as unChristian, just ineffectual. most of you will disagree with me and that's totally fine and very Lutheran. But I don't see how what Iowa's saying doesn't follow good logic.

Sorry if I offended,

John

[DaRev]

I have to ask, where does it say that being dead is a pre-requisite to being able to be prayed to? Christ is not dead. As you know, He is Risen.
ANY kind of communication with God implies that He is God ... It's of an entire different kind. The two have nothing to do with each other from the O/C mindset.


I think you answered your own question. Christ is God. God is not dead. The souls in heaven are not God.

Sounds clear as crystal to me.

[Xpycoctomos]

I think you answered your own question. Christ is God. God is not dead. The souls in heaven are not God.

Sounds clear as crystal to me.
But your posts implied that being dead was a pre-requisite.

Of course you are not praying to me. I'm not dead.

From our point of view... we ARE praying to you. and you're not dead. So what? What does that have to do with it? that was my point (I didn't make that very clear).

Again, I will state that we do not view prayer to God and prayer to the "saints" as the same thing or even in the same light. They are completely different actions just as when Luther says to praise Mary he means that in no way to have anything to do with the praise we give to God. He praised Mary better than probalby most catholics do nowdays, but this had nothing to do with the praise given to God in any way at all. it was qualitatively different. Now, I am not trying to some how show that he prayed to Mary. My point is not to equate praying with praising. I am only making an anology between how Luther differed his praise for Mary from his praise for God and how we differ our prayer to God and our prayer to Mary.

None of this, again, does anything to prove the point that the Saints can actually hear us. That's another thread... in OBOB or TAW.

John

PS: I like your posts.

[Xpycoctomos]

From our point of view... we ARE praying to you. and you're not dead. So what? What does that have to do with it? that was my point (I didn't make that very clear).


i should clarify... if I want to be technical here, I should have said that "That has EVERYTHING to do with it". We would never willingly ask a deadman for prayers. But that's getting into the technicalities of what "dead" is. so i'll drop that lol

[Qoheleth]

God is not dead. The souls in heaven are not God.



True enough. Yet neither are the souls dead, of which we speak . They are alive IN Christ, are they not? They participate IN Him, do they not?


Q

[DaRev]

True enough. Yet neither are the souls dead, of which we speak . They are alive IN Christ, are they not? They participate IN Him, do they not?


Q

But they are not God, thus we do not pray to them.

[DaSeminarian]

True enough. Yet neither are the souls dead, of which we speak . They are alive IN Christ, are they not? They participate IN Him, do they not?


Q

Yes, they are alive in Christ, but they are not participating in OUR faith. They are participating in him in heaven, not here. That is the difference. They can not mediate for us.

[Aibrean]

Thanks for that link...it's got a PDF link too that has it in Latin :)

to Luther: I like to use 1 John 2:1 -but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

If we have Jesus, we don't need anyone else :)

[Xpycoctomos]

But they are not God, thus we do not pray to them.
DaRev, you and Luther make a fine point in regards to whether we can communicate with our brethern. I may not agree with you, but that's a separate issue from what Iowa was talking about.

Just as I am sure you see the distinction between how Martin Luther "praised" Mary and surely "praised" God (a qualitative difference, not so much a quantitative difference) can't you at least give us that the prayers we send up to our brethern (here on earth or in heaven) are qualitatively different than the prayers we send up to God. I mean, yes, we use the same words, but so did Luther when talking about how he treated Mary and God.

DaRev, I'm not asking you to accept prayer to saints as a valid and worthwhile practice, but coming from where it SEEMS you are coming from, one would HAVE to conclude that we Orthodox and Catholics are nothing more than pagan idol worshippers for if there is no grand distinction between the prayer we send up to Saints and that which we send up to God then... I will HAVE to disagree with you that there is any other possible implication. If how you seem to understand our practice of praying to saints is true, then we are nothing but pagans... and worse becuase we slander the Name of Christ.

But, I don't think you really think that. Most sensible Lutherans whom I have met do not think this. I think you know that there is a difference between the prayer given to saints and that offered to God, if not from experience (I imagine not) then from the very fact of having known Christ-centered devout Catholics, Orthodox and Lutherans who have left to become one or the other. If you don't, you should honestly consider challenging our status here in CF. I'm actually very serious about this. I would vigorously challenge the status of Mormons if they were considered Chrsitians. In fact, I would probably leave CF altoghether.

None of this, again, proves anything about traditional prayer to saints except that it is not idol worship.

So, your point still stands (in here) that prayer to Saints in ineffectual (due to physical separation and other logical conclusions), but I think Iowa brings up a very good point that you all too quickly dismissed.

However, it is very possible that I am misunderstanding something in regards to your POV on the issue. Entirely possible. If so, please set me straight.

God bless you,

John

[Qoheleth]

Yes, they are alive in Christ, but they are not participating in OUR faith. They are participating in him in heaven, not here. That is the difference. They can not mediate for us.


I understand your POV, yet I have a concern about the bolded part above...

Is it not true that through faith and Baptism Christians are united to Christ even to the point of being associated with the preeminent redemptive acts of his death and resurrection (die to the old rise to the new- we are recreated or new being "In Christ")? Paul says those who believe also suffer with, are crucified with, die with, are buried with, are raised with, are glorified with, and rule with Christ. Therefore they are "In Christo". This term is used by Paul 165 times in his epistles.

If the saints in heaven are also In Christ as we are by Baptism and partaking in the Eucharist, Christs very Body and Blood (He in us, we in Him) is there any division, in fact can there be any division in the Body of Christ?

Of course I believe the answer to be that the Body of Christ is not divided and therefore they do participate in our faith as it is their faith too.



I think it is necessary to state that the Confessions admit that the Saints intercede for us. What is important is that prayer for others (intercession) or requests for the prayer of others (invocation) does in no way usurp or displace or diminish, or obscure Christ's own once-for-all salvific work and sole mediatorship in this regard.


Q

[seajoy]

But, I don't think you really think that. Most sensible Lutherans whom I have met do not think this.


No where in the bible does it say that we are to pray to saints.
Like Abriean stated, read 1 John 2:1.

Also, Paul, when he wanted to be rid of his thorn, prayed to God 3 times for it to be removed. But the Lord said His grace was sufficient. Paul, in turn, did not start praying to the saints, so God would listen to them. He accepted His Lord's answer.

Our Lord has given us a great gift in allowing us to come before Him, and Him alone. My comfort lies in the One who saved me.

[Xpycoctomos]

.

[seajoy]

you are very mild manored in your teaching.

[LilLamb219]

I mean, yes, we use the same words, but so did Luther when talking about how he treated Mary and God.


Luther never called Mary the Savior though. He didn't give her more credit than to extol her as the Mother of God, one who should be highly praised...praised but not worshiped and most certainly not prayed to.

God is a jealous God. If we are to pray to God without ceasing, where does that leave room to pray to anyone else????

[Xpycoctomos]

Ahhh yes, you are very mild manored and gentle in your teaching...I will admit that.
I'm not sure how to take that... but I'll just say thank you... lol ;)

[seajoy]

I'm not sure how to take that... but I'll just say thank you... lol ;)
What I meant was...you teach (try to change our minds), without really coming right out and saying that is what you are doing.
Perhaps it's unintended on your part. I will remove what I said earlier. :) sorry.

[Aibrean]

We are Christ-centered...not Mary-centered or saint-centered.

For me to pray to anyone other than Christ would be to detract my reverence and focus from him and his suffering. He died so we have him as our mediator...not Mary or any other saint. God answers prayer and no one else.

[DaSeminarian]

I'm not. Quote me where I am trying to convince you that YOU pray to saints or even that you SHOULD pray to saints. In fact:




Mr. Chrysostom,

I am not Greek, though I do read it at Sem. Explain the difference between "praying to" and veneration. It seems to me that EO and RC's pray to the the saints rather than venerate them which I understand is an acknowledgment of their life and death as a Christian.

Maybe that will help clear up a few things. If it is truly veneration you are speaking of then to acknowledge the Saint's life on earth is still to say that he was also a sinner until he reached heaven through his death.

To say otherwise would be heresy.

[Qoheleth]

For me to pray to anyone other than Christ would be to detract my reverence and focus from him and his suffering. He died so we have him as our mediator...not Mary or any other saint. God answers prayer and no one else.


If I may...


But doesn't the Bible say, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)? Why do we need to ask the saints to pray for us?

Yes, Christ Jesus, both Man and God, is the only One who has reconciled fallen humanity to God the Father by His reconciling and redeeming life, death, and resurrection. But this does not mean that we never ask others to pray for us! We ask the departed saints for their prayers in the same way we ask our fellow Christians on earth to intercede for us. Since the departed remain alive in Christ, why should they cease to express their love and concern for us through prayer? Freed from the concerns of day-to-day survival on earth, unencumbered with the sinful tendencies of the flesh, and far more intimately knit together with Christ than we are, the departed are able to intercede for us much more frequently and powerfully than our friends on earth can pray for us. Those in heaven are able to do continuously what we on earth long to do, but usually only manage to do weakly and sporadically.

No wonder, then, that Christians from the earliest days have asked the departed for their prayers. This in no way means that we can only reach Christ by going through the saints, as if they are absolutely necessary intermediaries between us and God. Such an idea is completely foreign to Orthodoxy. Saint Paul clearly states, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God . . . let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:14-16).

But just because we pray, on our own, directly to God, does not mean that we never ask other people for their prayers! Indeed, we are commanded many times in the Scriptures to pray for one another. Saint Paul says to Timothy, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1; see also Colossians 4:2-4, Ephesians 6:18, etc.). And we are taught by our Lord Jesus that the power of prayer is greater when more people are praying together: "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven" (Matthew 18:19). So, just as we feel comforted and strengthened when we ask friends, family, and Church members here on earth to intercede for us in a time of need, how much more can we feel comforted and strengthened when we also ask the Church in heaven for her prayers! (And we should not neglect to ask the angels for their prayers as well, since they are expressly sent to us as "ministering spirits" [Hebrews 1:14; also Psalm 91:11 and Isaiah 63:9]). Asking the saints, both those on earth and those in heaven,12 for their prayers, and asking the angels, too, can all be understood simply as gathering the greatest amount of prayer support possible in a time of need!


Can the saints answer our prayers directly? Is it within their power to grant our requests?

The prayers of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth are only effective insofar as God answers them. It is the same with the intercessions of the saints in heaven for us. They can never answer prayers of their own accord or in their own power; they can only beseech Christ on our behalf. To imagine that prayer to the saints means that they can grant our requests apart from Christ is a totally unacceptable idea according to Orthodox theology and practice. So when we pray to the saints, the understanding is always clear that we are asking them to help us by praying to God, and not by their own power or actions apart from Him.

__________________________________________


The entire article is available here...


http://www.protomartyr.org/prayer.html


Recall the Confessions cite the abuses of the church and the avoidance of the same as they knew them for even the Confessions support prayers for the dead and fully believe in the intercessions of the departed.


Q

[DaRev]

DaRev, I'm not asking you to accept prayer to saints as a valid and worthwhile practice, but coming from where it SEEMS you are coming from, one would HAVE to conclude that we Orthodox and Catholics are nothing more than pagan idol worshippers for if there is no grand distinction between the prayer we send up to Saints and that which we send up to God then... I will HAVE to disagree with you that there is any other possible implication. If how you seem to understand our practice of praying to saints is true, then we are nothing but pagans... and worse becuase we slander the Name of Christ.

So, now I'm insensible???

If I agreed with you then I would still be a Roman Catholic.

God commands us to pray to Him. He also commands us not to pray to anyone else. There is a huge difference between honoring someone in remembrance of their faithful life here on earth and offering to them prayers of supplication. The latter is idolatry.

[Xpycoctomos]

So, now I'm insensible???

If I agreed with you then I would still be a Roman Catholic.

God commands us to pray to Him. He also commands us not to pray to anyone else. There is a huge difference between honoring someone in remembrance of their faithful life here on earth and offering to them prayers of supplication. The latter is idolatry.
DaRev...

This conversation is a dead-end. We will not understand each other.. at least not in this way. I am glad you left the RC Church if indeed you were idolizing saints. I'm sorry you ever had to go through that and I am happy for you that you were able to leave behind such pagan ways and come to Christ, even if that meant leave such a beautiful Church. I will say in defense of the RCC that of all of my RC friends (devout - I met them at a Bible Study) none of them practice idol worship nor does the Catholic Church teach such. But, there are always those in any church who are misinformed and for them, we need to pray that they come to Christ. I'm glad you did. Far better give up abusing a wonderful and useful tool than to lose your soul for it.

I'm leaving this thread not in protest but in recognition that I am becoming debative in someone else's house and that I am being, quite frankly, rude.

Have a blessed Lent,

John

PS: I am currently emptying my PM box in case anyone wishes to continue the conversation through that means in a more neutral territory.

[LilLamb219]

Recall the Confessions cite the abuses of the church and the avoidance of the same as they knew them for even the Confessions support prayers for the dead and fully believe in the intercessions of the departed.


Q, could you site where the confessions support "prayers for the dead"? As our catechism states that we should not pray for the dead since once we die, we are either in heaven or hell and prayers will not help them.

Now I know the confessions say something about the saints praying for us, but that's in line completely with God's will. Nowhere does it state we should ask for their prayers, and nowhere does it state they can hear our prayer requests (unless I completely missed it).

[LilLamb219]

And I still wonder how one could pray without ceasing to God and force some time in between to pray to a dearly departed saint?

And what if, yikes...the dearly departed saint wasn't so saintly and actually is in hell...are you praying to someone Satan has control over??? How completely scary!

[Qoheleth]

"There is a huge difference between honoring someone in remembrance of their faithful life here on earth and offering to them prayers of supplication."



Father,

Are you saying that we are not to ask anyone to pray for us, that is to entreat or petition (supplications) them for their prayers on our behalf?

No this can not be the issue, because that is unbiblical

Or, is the issue whether or not the saints are able to hear this petition for their prayers on our behalf?

Because it is not sin in anyway shape or form to ask for others prayer and I believe that the word "pray" as you want to use it here somehow is being equated to worship when in reality it is meant, to ask.

For example, if I said to you, "pray tell me, where is my assistant" or "I pray for the courts relief in this matter"

If today, in this life, I pray for you and am concerned for your salvation, and you me, and tomorrow I should die and rise in Christ...what makes you believe that now I am in heaven I will forget, not care, or otherwise dismiss your life and other believers lives as if I no longer have concern what happens to you since I am home?

It does not seem possible for that to happen as the body of Christ is not and can not be divided.


The prayers of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth are only effective insofar as God answers them. It is the same with the intercessions of the saints in heaven for us.

They can never answer prayers of their own accord or in their own power; they can only beseech Christ on our behalf.

To imagine that prayer to the saints means that they can grant our requests apart from Christ is a totally unacceptable idea according to Orthodox theology and practice. So when we pray to the saints, the understanding is always clear that we are asking them to help us by praying to God, and not by their own power or actions apart from Him.


Q

[Qoheleth]

Q, could you site where the confessions support "prayers for the dead"? As our catechism states that we should not pray for the dead since once we die, we are either in heaven or hell and prayers will not help them.


"Now, as regards the adversaries' citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; but we disapprove of the application ex opere operato of the Lord's Supper on behalf of the dead." Augsburg Confession (article XXIV, 94)


and Luther himself...


"As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther's Works, vol. 37, p. 369)

There are several Lutheran hymns which indeed address the dearly departed... "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones" (http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/lyrics/tlh475.htm) and "Oh, How Blest Are Ye Whose Toils Are Ended." (http://http//www.lutheran-hymnal.com/lyrics/tlh589.htm)

These hymns are addressing, in fact speaking to the saints and asking for their continued intercessions and joining ourselves to their joy and to be reunited to them.

Have you ever sung the Christmas carol..."Oh come all ye faithful"??

This carol is obviously entreating the saints and angels to pray for God's mercy on creation.


Q

[DaSeminarian]

If I may...


But doesn't the Bible say, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)? Why do we need to ask the saints to pray for us?

Yes, Christ Jesus, both Man and God, is the only One who has reconciled fallen humanity to God the Father by His reconciling and redeeming life, death, and resurrection. But this does not mean that we never ask others to pray for us! We ask the departed saints for their prayers in the same way we ask our fellow Christians on earth to intercede for us. Since the departed remain alive in Christ, why should they cease to express their love and concern for us through prayer? Freed from the concerns of day-to-day survival on earth, unencumbered with the sinful tendencies of the flesh, and far more intimately knit together with Christ than we are, the departed are able to intercede for us much more frequently and powerfully than our friends on earth can pray for us. Those in heaven are able to do continuously what we on earth long to do, but usually only manage to do weakly and sporadically.

No wonder, then, that Christians from the earliest days have asked the departed for their prayers. This in no way means that we can only reach Christ by going through the saints, as if they are absolutely necessary intermediaries between us and God. Such an idea is completely foreign to Orthodoxy. Saint Paul clearly states, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God . . . let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:14-16).

But just because we pray, on our own, directly to God, does not mean that we never ask other people for their prayers! Indeed, we are commanded many times in the Scriptures to pray for one another. Saint Paul says to Timothy, "Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1; see also Colossians 4:2-4, Ephesians 6:18, etc.). And we are taught by our Lord Jesus that the power of prayer is greater when more people are praying together: "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven" (Matthew 18:19). So, just as we feel comforted and strengthened when we ask friends, family, and Church members here on earth to intercede for us in a time of need, how much more can we feel comforted and strengthened when we also ask the Church in heaven for her prayers! (And we should not neglect to ask the angels for their prayers as well, since they are expressly sent to us as "ministering spirits" [Hebrews 1:14; also Psalm 91:11 and Isaiah 63:9]). Asking the saints, both those on earth and those in heaven,12 for their prayers, and asking the angels, too, can all be understood simply as gathering the greatest amount of prayer support possible in a time of need!


Can the saints answer our prayers directly? Is it within their power to grant our requests?

The prayers of our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth are only effective insofar as God answers them. It is the same with the intercessions of the saints in heaven for us. They can never answer prayers of their own accord or in their own power; they can only beseech Christ on our behalf. To imagine that prayer to the saints means that they can grant our requests apart from Christ is a totally unacceptable idea according to Orthodox theology and practice. So when we pray to the saints, the understanding is always clear that we are asking them to help us by praying to God, and not by their own power or actions apart from Him.

__________________________________________


The entire article is available here...


http://www.protomartyr.org/prayer.html


Recall the Confessions cite the abuses of the church and the avoidance of the same as they knew them for even the Confessions support prayers for the dead and fully believe in the intercessions of the departed.


Q


However, that assumes that they can hear us. I don't see anywhere in the NT that claims that we can talk to anyone but Christ in heaven. Show me scripture that states this Q. I don't want the church fathers as I don't put them on par with scripture. Show me from the scripture that the saints can hear us and pray for us.

If you were Roman Catholic I would ask you to show me where it states in scripture that Mary, Jesus Mother is a mediator and should be called in prayer, but you're not so I won't.

[LilLamb219]

Ok, I concede that the Apology of the Augsburg Confession states that we do not forbid "prayers for the dead" but that's not prayers TO the dead at all...and any prayer we pray for the dead is still in line with God's will as that is what prayer is about...communication to God and wanting to be in line with God's will.

Still, do the confessions or the bible speak of prayers TO the dearly departed?

AND if we are to pray without ceasing to the Lord our God, where does that leave room to pray to anyone else???? Someone please answer that.

[DaRev]

DaRev...

This conversation is a dead-end. We will not understand each other.. at least not in this way. I am glad you left the RC Church if indeed you were idolizing saints.
For that is what they do.

I'm sorry you ever had to go through that and I am happy for you that you were able to leave behind such pagan ways and come to Christ, even if that meant leave such a beautiful Church.
If it was so beautiful, I wouldn't have left it.

I will say in defense of the RCC that of all of my RC friends (devout - I met them at a Bible Study) none of them practice idol worship nor does the Catholic Church teach such.
They are very careful in their wording of such things, I will grant them that, but it doesn't change one bit their practice.
They also say that we are saved by grace through faith. Sounds very good, except they have a completely different definition of "grace", one that requires merits on our part. That's not grace at all.
Again, very careful in their wording of things.

But, there are always those in any church who are misinformed and for them, we need to pray that they come to Christ. I'm glad you did. Far better give up abusing a wonderful and useful tool than to lose your soul for it.
I wouldn't call false teaching a "wonderful and useful tool.":doh:


Have a blessed Lent,

Likewise.:)

PS: I am currently emptying my PM box in case anyone wishes to continue the conversation through that means in a more neutral territory.
But I don't think there is anymore to say on the matter, at least from my perspective. I've said my peace.

[Xpycoctomos]

AND if we are to pray without ceasing to the Lord our God, where does that leave room to pray to anyone else???? Someone please answer that.


Fine, I will answer that. I broke my promise. :) When you were writing this post, were you praying? When you asked your friend to pray for you, were you praying (as in to God as you are implying)?

[Qoheleth]

However, that assumes that they can hear us.

Well yes it does assume that the saints can and do hear us, yet is it wise to limit the powers of spiritual perception of those who are now so intimately linked with God? If we on earth experience the help of the Holy Spirit praying in us and through us (Romans 8:26, 27), how much more must the Spirit's help be present in the saints in heaven? And we should remember that in heaven, in the spiritual realm, there are none of the limitations of time, space, or physical mortality which so restrict us as we live on earth.

The scriptures below indicate that the spirits of those who have died are very much alert and aware of what is taking place both in heaven and on earth.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel". , Hebrews 12:22-24

Jesus' words in Luke 20:37, 38, where He states: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him".

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus relates the conversation of Abraham, in Paradise, with the deceased rich man whose soul has descended into Hades.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

The Book of Revelation, which shows us the saints in heaven, before the Great Tribulation, being very active indeed-falling on their faces in worship before the throne of God, casting their crowns to the King of Glory, singing His praises, and speaking to Him (Revelation 4:4, 10, 11; 5:8-10, 13; 6:9-11; 7:9-12).

The personal testimony of Saint Paul. When he wrote to the Philippians, Saint Paul expressed faith that he would be alive with Christ after his death: "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you" (Philippians 1:23, 24). He wrote to the Corinthians very similarly: "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

The Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36), which demonstrate clearly that the faithful departed continue to live, by the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus there!

Hebrews 12:1, which exhorts us, "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [including the Old Testament heroes of faith listed in chapter 11], let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us". These "witnesses" are the saints from all ages. Certainly they would not have been called "witnesses" if they were unconscious of their surroundings.


Once again I believe that the Body of Christ is not and cannot be divided and we are "In Christ" mystically united with the saints in heaven


Q

[LilLamb219]

Being "in Christ" is not the same thing as being God.

If we are to pray without ceasing to GOD...that is not the same thing as saying it's ok to pray to the saints who have passed because they are "in Christ"...they are not God. Being in Christ is not the same as being God.

[DaRev]

Well yes it does assume that the saints can and do hear us, yet is it wise to limit the powers of spiritual perception of those who are now so intimately linked with God? If we on earth experience the help of the Holy Spirit praying in us and through us (Romans 8:26, 27), how much more must the Spirit's help be present in the saints in heaven? And we should remember that in heaven, in the spiritual realm, there are none of the limitations of time, space, or physical mortality which so restrict us as we live on earth.

The scriptures below indicate that the spirits of those who have died are very much alert and aware of what is taking place both in heaven and on earth.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel". , Hebrews 12:22-24

Jesus' words in Luke 20:37, 38, where He states: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him".

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus relates the conversation of Abraham, in Paradise, with the deceased rich man whose soul has descended into Hades.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

The Book of Revelation, which shows us the saints in heaven, before the Great Tribulation, being very active indeed-falling on their faces in worship before the throne of God, casting their crowns to the King of Glory, singing His praises, and speaking to Him (Revelation 4:4, 10, 11; 5:8-10, 13; 6:9-11; 7:9-12).

The personal testimony of Saint Paul. When he wrote to the Philippians, Saint Paul expressed faith that he would be alive with Christ after his death: "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you" (Philippians 1:23, 24). He wrote to the Corinthians very similarly: "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

The Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36), which demonstrate clearly that the faithful departed continue to live, by the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus there!

Hebrews 12:1, which exhorts us, "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [including the Old Testament heroes of faith listed in chapter 11], let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us". These "witnesses" are the saints from all ages. Certainly they would not have been called "witnesses" if they were unconscious of their surroundings.


Once again I believe that the Body of Christ is not and cannot be divided and we are "In Christ" mystically united with the saints in heaven


Q


Show me where in any of those quotes that it says that we are to pray to the souls in heaven.

[Qoheleth]

Still, do the confessions or the bible speak of prayers TO the dearly departed?


Here is some context...


The Ap asserts that Mary prays for the Church, but does not receive souls in death, etc (Ap.XXI:27). In this, Mary is not unique, however, for the Ap. asserts that the faithful dead pray for the Church in general (Ap XXI:9) The Ap also notes that the AC argument is that our churches do not *require* invocation ("Our Confession affirms only this..." Ap XXI: 10) because it 1) has neither command; 2) promise; 3) nor example in the Sacred Scriptures. But the Ap also contains the enigmatic statement "This new invocation in the Church is unlike the invocation of individuals." (Ap XXI:13)

Further, we might also helpfully distinguish between the invocation of the saints that pleads their merits and asks them to do this or that (as though they were God!) with the invocation that consists merely in asking their intercessions on our behalf. (Cf. "Here we will show that the adversaries truly make the saints not just intercessors, but atonement makers, that is, mediators of redemption", Ap. XXI:16) From the standpoint of justification, the first is an abomination, not to mention a violation of the first commandment; the second, however, is no more of a danger to faith than asking you to pray for me, which, of course, I do ask you to do.

What the Confessors were objecting to was precisely forcing (Due to RCC abuses) consciences to participate in invocation of the saints when this is practiced "in the Church" - that is, in her liturgy - vs. the private piety of individuals who may believe that the saints, who indeed "know in part" and who surround us as a "great cloud of witnesses" and whom we confess to be interceding for us anyway, may also be able to hear our requests for their intercessions. (This seems to be the sense of Ap XXI:10-13)


So...

To invoke means to call upon, concerning invocation, the church prohibits only one kind of invocation—calling upon or praying to the saints in place of Christ, or as if one needs to approach them first in order to pray to Jesus. This form of invocation is idolatry since it places trust not in God but in our prayers or in the saints. Other invocations, however, such as asking them to pray for us are permissible.

The church teaches and believes that at every Holy Mass the “angels, archangels and all the company of heaven” are present. The last phrase (“all the company of heaven”) refers to all Christians, living and departed. So they are mystically gathered with us. Why? Because “we are all one body”—which is Christ.


Q

[Qoheleth]

Show me where in any of those quotes that it says that we are to pray to the souls in heaven.

Father,

That was not the question I was answering in all the given quotes.


Q

[Qoheleth]

If we are to pray without ceasing to GOD...that is not the same thing as saying it's ok to pray to the saints who have passed because they are "in Christ"...they are not God. Being in Christ is not the same as being God.





When we ask another who is alive in this life with us, “pray for me”

Are we in fact making them mediators in place of or instead of Christ our Lord? Are we making them God?

No, we are not and no it does not make them God and neither is this sin or prohibited in Scripture

Yet we do this, that is, ask for their intercessory prayer on our behalf.


Therefore when we ask the dearly departed, who are fully alive In Christ and fully aware of our struggles in this world to pray for us, are we making them mediators in place of or instead of Christ?

We do not ask the saints, not even the blessed Mary, for pardon, for mercy, for grace, or blessings of any sort, as things in their power to grant. We simply ask them to aid us by their prayers, or to intercede with God to obtain these things for us from him from whom comes every good and perfect gift.... What we ask of them is their intercession, or simply their prayers, as human beings united with us in one and the same communion. (Orestes Brownson, Saint Worship).


Christ alone reconciled the world to God. Christ alone merited for us grace and glory and everything necessary for our salvation....Accordingly we ask of the saints nothing more than that they intercede before God for grace and mercy.


These saints do not come between believers and Jesus Christ, but are companions with believers in Christ, just as you and I are. The only concern is whether or not they can hear us…correct?


Q

[united4Peace]

I would appreciate comments from others.

Did God die?
Not Luthern here...but no...God cannot die.

Jesus died...

Hmmm :scratch:

[LilLamb219]

I have only asked people I KNOW are either right in front of me, on the phone, or here online where I know that it is not a request in vain. I don't ask the dearly departed because, frankly, they aren't here, they're with God...and since they're with God, then I'll just ask him directly. He's always sure to listen to me...and I KNOW He's listening because scriptures tell me that is most certainly true.

[united4Peace]

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/Office%20of%20the%20President/Did%20all%20of%20God%20die%20in%20Christ.pdf

If you can view pdf files, here is a great one called Did All of God Die in Christ? It's by the LCMS
Okay, this I pretty much agree with...so my answer remains the same...

No

God did not die :)

[DaRev]

When we ask another who is alive in this life with us, “pray for me”

Are we in fact making them mediators in place of or instead of Christ our Lord? Are we making them God?

No, we are not and no it does not make them God and neither is this sin or prohibited in Scripture

Yet we do this, that is, ask for their intercessory prayer on our behalf.


Therefore when we ask the dearly departed, who are fully alive In Christ and fully aware of our struggles in this world to pray for us, are we making them mediators in place of or instead of Christ?

We do not ask the saints, not even the blessed Mary, for pardon, for mercy, for grace, or blessings of any sort, as things in their power to grant. We simply ask them to aid us by their prayers, or to intercede with God to obtain these things for us from him from whom comes every good and perfect gift.... What we ask of them is their intercession, or simply their prayers, as human beings united with us in one and the same communion. (Orestes Brownson, Saint Worship).


Christ alone reconciled the world to God. Christ alone merited for us grace and glory and everything necessary for our salvation....Accordingly we ask of the saints nothing more than that they intercede before God for grace and mercy.


These saints do not come between believers and Jesus Christ, but are companions with believers in Christ, just as you and I are. The only concern is whether or not they can hear us…correct?


Q

The point is the means of communication. I can ask you or anyone else anything by direct communication because we are within the same realm.
But how do we ask the souls in heaven to pray for us or to do anything? That would require prayer. Prayer to anyone or anything other than God is idolatry. Pure and simple.

This isn't to say that the souls in heaven do not pray for us or intercede for us on their own. This they do without our asking. If they are aware of our circumstances as you allude, then petitioning them is unnecessary.

[DaRev]

Not Luthern here...but no...God cannot die.

Jesus died...

Hmmm :scratch:

So... you believe that Jesus is not God?? :scratch:

[Aibrean]

John 10:30

I and my Father are one.

[united4Peace]

So... you believe that Jesus is not God?? :scratch:
I didnt say that...


I like the link that liltlamb posted
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/...n%20Christ.pdf

God in Jesus died...
But God did not die...The Holy Spirit did not die...
So no God did not die..
Jesus died...Jesus was Human.
God in Jesus was not Human...that is God.
Even at that I dont believe God died.

Just because the physical self (human self)died doesnt mean the spiritual self (God part) died.

No...God cannot be killed...sorry.

[Jim47]

I've had complaints about this thread. It is not agianst forum rules for visitors to come in here to our forum and debate, however this thread is not about debate. It is being used as in the past, to convey EO teachings as being truth instead of what Lutherans believe. Since the OP has been answered adequately I am closing this thread.

I also want to remind our EO visitors that they are not allowed to come into our congregational forum and teach their beliefs. If any Lutherans here want to know more about EO beliefs, they can post questions in their respective forum.