The Torah of the Covenant

[Charles YTK]

There is a big difference of opinion on how much of the old Covenant remains or is brought into the New Covenant. Some MJ's believe we are to keep all the laws of Torah. (613) Some believe we should also keep much or all of the Rabbinical laws of the Talmud.

Personally I believe that the Torah of the New Covenant is reflected in the ten commandments, the teachings of Yeshua, the teachings of the Apostles, the words of the prophets concerning the Millennial Kingdom. After all we live in the New Covenant. No one man can individually keep the statutes and ordinances given in Torah. They can only be kept as a nation, corporately, living in the land. I personally can only keep those things that pertain to me, a man, nonpriest, not living in the land and a believer in God's messiah, Yeshua the King.


When we read the biblical account of the making of the Sinai Covenant, God comes and speaks to the people in an audible voice and they all understand him in thier own languages, and what the people hear is the ten commandments nothing more. And it is these to which they agree to as being the terms of the covenant. In Duet 4 we can see what appears to be a division between the Covenant which is spoken by God as the ten commands, and the ordinances given to Israel by Moshe for regulation of life when they enter the promised land.



Deut 4: [12] And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.


So that seems to be clear, the Covenant is specified in the ten commands which were written on stone and stored in the ark.

Then God commands Moshe to give the people ordinances for the land they are to enter. And it seems in this passage that these are left pretty much to Moshes descression and not dictated by God as the ten commands were.
DT 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

There are things in these ordinances that Yeshua and God do not seem to agree with and therefore are not given directly by God, for example, Polygamy and divorce and a number of other issues.

It seems to me that the 10 commands were the core of God's requirements of the Sinai covenant and these are also expounded upon by Yeshua in the Sermon on the mount and other places as being critical and brought to a deeper meaning which is only able to be kept through a new spiritual birth.

It's all about a new life in Union with God through a spiritual rebirth through faith in Yeshua the Messiah of God. If we make it into the keeping of ordinances then we have missed the good news all together.

[Charles YTK]

DT 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2] And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.


MK 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. [3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? [4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

MT 5: [31] It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: [32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

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DT 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: [16] Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:


MK 10: [6] But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. [7] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; [8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.


Are all the gentiles who were part of Israel under the covenant also to maintain the ordinances given to Israel as a nation?

DT 14:21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God.

[Tishri1]

to clarify Charles what specifically would you say are harmful to keep that we may be keeping now?

I like what you said hereIt seems to me that the 10 commands were the core of God's requirements of the Sinai covenant and these are also expounded upon by Yeshua in the Sermon on the mount and other places as being critical and brought to a deeper meaning which is only able to be kept through a new spiritual birth. I remember when I first became MJ a visitor to my home once told me that any custom or tradition I desided to do should be something I was excited to do out of love and excitement for ABBA and not out of pressure or pleasing of Man...is that what your trying to say?

PS I took his words to heart and havent added anything that creates a burden in my soul...but I have added many things to my life and just wanted to know what you think of that?

[Wags]

There are things in these ordinances that Yeshua and God do not seem to agree with and therefore are not given directly by God, for example, Polygamy and divorce and a number of other issues.


So you don't believe that all scripture is inspired by God?


All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness... 2 Timothy 3:16

[Charles YTK]

So you don't believe that all scripture is inspired by God?


All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness... 2 Timothy 3:16

Sorry, but my ankles are too sore to step into traps and snares. Are any of the things given in scripture meant for a paticular people, place and time or is everything given to everybody to observe for all times?

Feel free to explain why God who never changes his mind or the covenant or it's laws, changed from what Moshe gave to what Yeshua gave.

I will give you a hint though. Why did Yeshua tell the rich young ruler that he had to sell all he owned and give it to the poor, when the Torah does not forbid having wealth? Was Yeshua writing a new law or changing what was given through Moshe?

[Charles YTK]

to clarify Charles what specifically would you say are harmful to keep that we may be keeping now?

I like what you said here I remember when I first became MJ a visitor to my home once told me that any custom or tradition I desided to do should be something I was excited to do out of love and excitement for ABBA and not out of pressure or pleasing of Man...is that what your trying to say?

PS I took his words to heart and havent added anything that creates a burden in my soul...but I have added many things to my life and just wanted to know what you think of that?


There is grevious error in trying to follow Moshe rather than Yeshua, or to keep rituals that were meant for Israel living in the lands of Israel, and not given for the Kingdom of God. They is error in trusting in your obedience to God's commandments to hold your status before God rather than trusting in his mercy, extended through the work of Messiah. It is dangerous to try to preserve the old covenant when the purpose of Messiah's mission was to bring in the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God. There is a danger of religious pride for being so overly attentive to the ordinances given to Israel while ignoring the word of Messiah given to us. Moshe himself warned us that the one who came after him we must listen to and obey. Deut 19:15

Here Moshe speaks to Israel concerning their greatness in keeping the law.

DT 9: [4] Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee. [5] Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. [6] Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Recently this forum was attacked (and it continues) by Tora-tora-tora-grandma, Publishing a list of erroneous doctrines of MJ. And though the list does not apply to all MJ's I certainly have encountered most of them in my years as an MJ believer. It is wrong to hold to half truths and Rabbinical teachings or folk-lore that has no foundation in God's word given to the redeemed community of those saved through Messiah. Our foundation must be upon Yeshua and his word, his Halacha, not the teachings of Ramban or the sages. What I am seeing all too often is Yeshua being shoved aside in order to pursue Torah obedience, giving more authority to Moshe than to Yeshua the Eternal King.

I am not accusing anyone here in particular. I am simply answering your general Questions with Generalized answers.

[jgonz]

I rarely see someone trying to follow Moses in this forum. Why follow Moses when we have Messiah?!? And frankly I'm rather tired of this constant accusation (not only from you) that we're trying to live up to Mt. Sinai's covenant instead of Messiah's.

There is NOTHING without Messiah! But we can't understand Half of what He taught without knowing the Foundation of Torah. We need to explore it, taste it, touch it, experience it... Within Messiah.

I consider myself part of the bunch of Gentile Believers who have to be taught from the Ground Up, or we won't get it fully. It sure would be great if we were brought up Jewish because at least we would understand the foundation Already... freedom in Messiah would seem so sweet! But as Wonderful as being saved and being a Believer is, there is So much missing because I just don't understand so many things...

That torahgramaperson is half-baked and off her rocker (if she's even a she, or even who she says she is). IMO, she's a troll, and I won't respond to her in Any forum ever again.

[Tishri1]

There is NOTHING without Messiah! But we can't understand Half of what He taught without knowing the Foundation of Torah. We need to explore it, taste it, touch it, experience it... Within Messiah.Amen Jan, this is how I feel too:wave:

[Tishri1]

to clarify Charles what specifically would you say are harmful to keep that we may be keeping now?

I remember when I first became MJ a visitor to my home once told me that any custom or tradition I desided to do should be something I was excited to do out of love and excitement for ABBA and not out of pressure or pleasing of Man...is that what your trying to say?

PS I took his words to heart and havent added anything that creates a burden in my soul...but I have added many things to my life and just wanted to know what you think of that?Charles I'm sorry you didnt really answer my question, can I ask what observances may be harmful, that the average MJ would be seen doing today?

[Tishri1]

so Charles I still want you to answer my question above ok? but also let me see if I hear you correctly

In Duet 4 we can see what appears to be a division between the Covenant which is spoken by God as the ten commands, and the ordinances given to Israel by Moshe for regulation of life when they enter the promised land.

Deut 4: [12] And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

So that seems to be clear, the Covenant is specified in the ten commands which were written on stone and stored in the ark.Are you saying the Covenant has only 10 commands within it?




Then God commands Moshe to give the people ordinances for the land they are to enter. And it seems in this passage that these are left pretty much to Moshes descression and not dictated by God as the ten commands were.
DT 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Are you saying the 613 are not commands but ordinances? What does that mean?

[mpossoff]

Charles Galations 4 tells us covenants made by G-d do not supercede or undo previous convenants, they simply expand them.

Marc

[mpossoff]

Feel free to explain why God who never changes his mind or the covenant or it's laws, changed from what Moshe gave to what Yeshua gave.

First Charles was it Moshe who gave? Often it is called the 'Law of Moses' but is it Moshe?

'And the L-rd said to Moses, saying... Speak to the children of Israel...'

So it wasn't Moshe who gave it was Hashem who gave through Moshe.

Why did Yeshua tell the rich young ruler that he had to sell all he owned and give it to the poor, when the Torah does not forbid having wealth? Was Yeshua writing a new law or changing what was given through Moshe? That verse is often taken out of context. The point of the passage isn't about wealth.

There is grevious error in trying to follow Moshe rather than Yeshua, or to keep rituals that were meant for Israel living in the lands of Israel, and not given for the Kingdom of God

Again was it Moshe who gave or was it Hashem who gave through Moshe?

Yeshua, who wrote it, followed it. If Yeshua didn't follow and obey it, He would have been contradicting Himself and wouldn't be Messiah.

'Hebraically' speaking love and obedience are tied together.

Moshe himself warned us that the one who came after him we must listen to and obey. Deut 19:15

Actually that's Deut 18:18-19
A Prophet like unto me.Yeshua said every word that the Father speaks I speak. Words and deeds are not my own. Therefore Yeshua's words weren't contradictory words, they were the same.

A Prophet like unto me.Why would Moshe say a Prophet like unto me? When you denigrate Moshe you are denigrating Yeshua. Why? Because Moshe said a Prophet like unto me, Messiah has to be like Moshe in understanding. This is to not to put Yeshua aside. Again it's not Moshe who gace it was Hashem who gave through Moshe, 'And the L-rd said to Moses, saying... Speak to the children of Israel...'

What I am seeing all too often is Yeshua being shoved aside in order to pursue Torah obedience, giving more authority to Moshe than to Yeshua the Eternal King.

Again was it Moshe who gave the Torah? Did Moshe create it on his own?

It's not Moshe's Law it is Hashem's Law(Torah).

Torah is the path, Messiah is the goal.

How about Union with God(life eternal) is the goal, Messiah is the path?

What was Yeshua's path?

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Charles I'm sorry you didnt really answer my question, can I ask what observances may be harmful, that the average MJ would be seen doing today?
Tish,
The infatuation that Messianics have with the Talmudic teachings and placing more emphasis on that over the teachings of Messiah. Where are their hearts? That is really the problem. What is the first commandment; is it not to recognize that there is only one God and to cleave to him alone?

The Rabbinicals of the 1st century had placed themselves as God's personal representatives on the earth and had even changed God's instructions giving themselves power over the people. By placing oneself under their authority or their teachings we are reaffirming their right to supercede God.

I agree with Jgonz that we need to understand the context of what was being said. Absolutely. I also do this and encourage others to do so. But I do not have to place myself under the ordinances of Moshe given to Israel, to regulate life in a partial theocracy which no loner exists. My Torah is gien by Yeshua and written on my heart and communicated by the spirit. Yes it has some things in common with the law of Moshe, but it is not word for word the same. Obviously, I am not a Jew and not living in Israel and have a different high priest and temple than what Moshe gave to Israel.

Tora-Tora-Grandma mentioned that some Messainics have begun to sacrifice their own Pesack lambs in order to be better believers. I believe this to be true and have head these same admissions from Messianics who are doing this. And even Moshe stipulated that the Jews could not kill the sacrifices in their own gates or in their own cities but had to bring them to the place God would designate and place his name upon, which is Jerusalem.

It is true that Gershom Solomon and the Temple Mount faithful sacrifice the Pesach on the Mount of Olives overlooking the Temple mount. I see no problem with this in regards to the law as they are in Jerusalem and some of them are Levites. Yet performing the sacrifice still most emphatically affirms the continued rejection of Yeshua by his people and this is a sad thing to me and not joyful. So why are so many Messianics so thrilled with this sacrifice being performed? Is it not simply because they think a return to the old Torah of Moshe under that administration is the key to restoring the communion with God ? There is something better, better news, a better covenant, a better sacrifice, a perfect preisthood based on an eternal life, and that life wants to live inside of us by the Holy Spirit. He wants to make us one with the Father.

The disciples were not sent out to call the nations to repentence and to return to Torah or to make disciples of men for Moshe. They were sent out to call the nation to new life in the Kingdom of God and to enter the New Covenant, a thing that is currently denied by many, even in this forum.

Where is the heart of Messianics today?

[Wags]

The heart of Messiancs today is towards Adonai, they incline their ears to His teaching. They turn their eyes to Yeshua to see how he lived, and desire to walk as He walked. The Comforter encourages them as they walk the path of HaShem.

[Charles YTK]

Mpossoff,

I understand what you are saying. Yes God directed Moshe to write for the people the ordinances. And he may have given him specific dictation on some of it. But the thing that is missed is that he gave it to Moshe to give in turn to Israel to do when they enter the land that he was giving them. It is a law for those people in that place and not for a world wide Kingdom that was to come later through Messiah. They were not even allowed in that time to perform many of the most essential things, the sacrifices, outside of the piesthood of Levites in Jerusalem. The Torah of ordinaces regulated life for the people of God who were living in Israel up to the appointed time when Messian would come and fulfill the promises being rehersed by the rituals of Torah.

The Torah is still true, there is still an atonement sacrifice today, but it is no longer a Goat in the hands of the high priest in the Earthly temple. It is now and forever the blood of Yeshua in his own hands (a Judaite) in the tabernacle of heaven. This does not cancel the truth of Torah. It brings it to its full meaning which was to show us the sacrifice of Yeshua that was to come. Didn't God himself allow the removal of the old Earthly Temple? Or was Rome more powerful than God, and was God deteated in 70 AD? I say no, Certainly not. God had no more use for that old system than a beetle does for his old exoskeleton when he steps out of it and walks away leaving the outward form of himself on the leaf behind him. It is only the outline and form of the living thing that was to emerge from it. It is not itself the living organism. Just an empty shell that held a form of life inside of it.

All of Torah points to the Messiah , the new birth and the Kingdom of God the redemption of all the creation. Why try to crawl back inside the dead empty shell, when the life is walking the other direction. Why pracitce the things that looked forward to the new life instead of embracing the new life and living it?

And Yes thanks for the correction. It was a typo, Duet 18:15-19

[Charles YTK]

Charles Galations 4 tells us covenants made by G-d do not supercede or undo previous convenants, they simply expand them.

Marc
This is not entirely true. There are two kinds of Covenants, unilateral and bilateral. Think of it as unconditional and conditional. The Sinai covenant did not cancel the Abrahamic because the covenant of Abraham is unilateral. It is God's promise. He made the covenant and he keeps it. The Sinai covenant was conditional (Bilateral). It promised both blessing and curses and required Israel to uphold their part of the agreement. Should they fail, the covenant would be broken. And this is what happened on several occassions. And God forgave them and restored them, until the time that he was able to make the new Covenant through Yeshua. The New Covenant does replace the old covenant, because the one one who enters the New Covenant does so through death, and new birth. As Paul says we are no longer married to the law of Moshe because we have died in the flesh and the law of Marriage in no longer binding upon us, we are free to marry another who is Yeshua the Messiah.

[Charles YTK]

The heart of Messiancs today is towards Adonai, they incline their ears to His teaching. They turn their eyes to Yeshua to see how he lived, and desire to walk as He walked. The Comforter encourages them as they walk the path of HaShem.
Do you go up to Jerusalem each year to offer the Passover sacrifice, or Atonement?

Yeshua made the New Covenant through his bloodly sacrifice. It was initiated on the day of Shavuot (Pentecost) after his ascention, as the Holy Spirit was pourd out on all flesh who believed. Yeshua himself did not live under the New Covenant. He humbled himself and came as one under the law to redeem those who were under the law. He lived by the law, for he came under the authority of that covenant and law. Today he is the mediator of a better covenant, made with better promises. We should live as he lived and learn from his teachings. His teachings are not the same as those of Moshe. I have already given several examples. I wish that you would make a list of these differences for yourself.

Yeshua is our high priest yet he comes out of Judah a thing forbidden in the Torah.

His blood, human blood, is offered. A thing forbidden in Torah.

He spoke things that were contrary to Moshes law, like divorcement, and even how we were to understand the ten comandments.

Our Torah is that of the New Covenant. It is not admnisterd by Levites who live in Jerusalem and rule over us. It s administered by the Spirit of God who lives inside of us, no mater where we live.

[Charles YTK]

Tishri1

Are you saying the Covenant has only 10 commands within it?

Speifically the covenant was spoken by God directly to the people. He spoke the ten commands and nothing more. Those are the terms of the covenant. The widely accepted Rabbinical traditions hold that when the Lord spoke these words that his voice broke into 70 different languages which were all the known languages of men on the earth, and in that, all men of Earth were given those ten commands and by the representatives in Sinai they all agreed to them, "Whatever you say we shall do."
If you keep those ten you are keeping the essential covenant agreement.

What follows God says that he is charging Moshe to give to the people who will enter the lands of Israel. Look how many times in these orinances it specifies, "When you enter the land I am going to give you" Or "You shall do this in the land I am giving you" or "You shall not do this in any other place. You shall do this in the place I wil show you."

DT 12:1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.. . .
[8] Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes. [9] For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you. [10] But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety; [11] Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you;


LEV 14:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, [34] When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;

LEV 19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised:

LEV 23: [10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

LEV 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

NU 15:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, which I give unto you, [3] And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD,

[18] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land whither I bring you, [19] Then it shall be, that, when ye eat of the bread of the land, ye shall offer up an heave offering unto the LORD.

DT 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.


There are many more than I wish to copy and paste here. The laws of ordinances are primarily directed to regulating life in the lands of Israel. Yes there are some good moral laws that are universal to God and part of our own Torah of the New Covenant . It is my contention that we should be concentrating on understand these, and defining our Torah by the New Covenant not by that given for regulating life in the lands of Israel.

[Charles YTK]

Let me give you an example of the shift of Emphasis.

God speaks the Ten commandments to all the people including the mixed multitude in Sinai. and he says concernig Sabbath:

[8] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The Emphasis is on the connection between God and all men of the earth. He speaks of creation before Israel is called out as a peculiar people. Now later after the 38 years are expired and they are entering the promised land, the emphasis changes.

[12] Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. [13] Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: [14] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. [15] And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

You see now the connection is with Israel who is no longer slaves as they were in Egypt but are now a special nation of people and how this commandment is to be observed in the lands he is giving them. It is now foused on the nation and people of Israel the Jews rather than the more broad view of all humanity in the creation story.

Was this change given by God or was it given by Moshe? God spoke what was given in Exodus, but Moshe is given the task of interceding for Israel and bringing her to the place God has chosen. So whether directly or indirectly by God, the focus of the law is shifted to a specific people time and place. Does it not change again in the New Covenant? Where is the emphasis of Sabbath today all men as in the creation and our right relationship with God through Messiah?

Heb 4: [9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. [10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

MK 2: [23] And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. [24] And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? [25] And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? [26] How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the showbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? [27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: [28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

[mpossoff]

The disciples were not sent out to call the nations to repentence and to return to Torah or to make disciples of men for Moshe. They were sent out to call the nation to new life in the Kingdom of God and to enter the New Covenant, a thing that is currently denied by many, even in this forum.

The 'message' of repentance is not anything new meaning it wasn't a new 'concept' in the NT.

Repentance means to turn around/stop what you are doing.

Turn around from what, stop what?

Marc

[LadyGarnetRose]

Charles,

You make presumptions.

I do not know anybody here that places more emphasise on Talmud than on Scripture.

In fact, I place no authority and most here place no authority into Talmud, but I do read it, and when it AGREES with Scripture then that is usable.

Just like any other commentary on Scripture, it must match what Scripture is saying.

I find it disheartening and sad that you look at those who are Messianic in such a poor light.

Also, you observe the laws you CAN, and in turn, when all observe the laws THEY can the whole of the law is obeyed. The 613 are for ALL of us, not for ONE of us. But Us a People, not us a person.

If one is starving, they must eat, if that means plucking wheat on the Shabbos then so be it, it must be done. Life being the most precious gift of God we should not throw it away for any reason.

If one cannot fast, they should not. If one cannot, then they cannot, such as the burnt offerings, not the sin sacrifices but the burnt offerings two completely different things.

Yeshua did not condemn nor abolish the Law of God, but the Law of Man.

[Tishri1]

Yes there are some good moral laws that are universal to God and part of our own Torah of the New Covenant . It is my contention that we should be concentrating on understand these, and defining our Torah by the New Covenant not by that given for regulating life in the lands of Israel.
then why dont we....I dont really see any of us sacrificing a lamb today ....Why dont we talk about the Torah commands and ordinances of the New Covenant.....I honestly think you and I and all of us will find that we are living exactly this way and we dont need to worry anymore about what some on the fringes of MJ are doing:thumbsup:

[Shimshon]

It's amazing how some can see the details of the instructions given to Yisrael and know that all do not apply to them. That they can only apply that which was given them.

Yet turn around and proclaim/teach/state that all covenants stack, and apply to us all. You can divide out that which was given to the levi, the man, the woman, the child, the stranger. But you can't divide out that which was given to Noach, Avram, Yacov, Moshe, David, God's Judges/prophets and kings, and Yeshua?

What applies to Moshe and Yisrael does not apply to us and God's Kingdom upon this earth. Not in the 'exact same' way. YOU are not a child of Yisrael, you are not part of that generation. You are a generation of kings and preists in a covenant made by God mediated through Yeshua. You are not phycial Jews, decendants of Avraham by circumcision that you should walk by the covenant made with them. And if you are you are no longer bound to the covenant that was broken by our fathers and finally reestablished through Yeshua. The commands given Yisrael served a purpose and had a place in time. They are awesome for teaching and correction, but in no way have ANYTHING to do with our salvation, before or after we accept Yeshua. Accepting Yeshua does not mean walking in the commands given Yisrael. As a Jew.

You are born into the family through the SEED not the seeds. You become a child of Avraham through the SEED not the seeds. The seeds (Yisrael) come to God the same way, through the SEED that came. Yeshua

By faith did Avraham see this day and was declared righteous in the sight of God. By faith did all who 'BELIEVED' that Yeshua would come were they found holy in the sight of God. By FAITH are we saved to eternal life. By FAITH do we know that we will be resurected to it.

This faith comes by hearing the Word proclaimed through the law and the prophets. But it most assuredly comes through the Word that was spoken into the hearts of his children.

Torah proclaimed and shadowed this day. This day has come, the Day of the Lord. A covenant was made on Mt Tziyon. It was witnessed by the law and the prophets, AND by the disciples who Yeshua was given. Something came that was not here before....Moshiach. And the immersion of the Spirit. Not the presence 'among' you, but WITHIN you. This is something only given to kings and prophets, judges. As needed to do the will of God or speak his message. But now this Spirit is given to the world to drink. Jew first, then the nations.

The message was not new, it was proclaimed from the beginning of time. The thing that is new, is that 'THE TIME HAS COME' to turn to God as in the garden, not as in Moshe's time.

Not one person followed Torah. Not one. All are guilty. We are called to stop...from 'original sin'. Return to having God dwell within you. Return from being cast out of the garden into a personal one on one relationship where God speaks to you through ALL things, and you hear his voice as clear as a bell. Because by faith you have received the gift of the Spirit. A gift that is quite new to the human race. Considering it hasn't been around since the garden.

Return to God. Adam knew God, without the Torah given Moshe. Noach knew God, without the Torah given Moshe. Avraham, Yitzak, Yacov...all before Moshe, knew God because 'He SPOKE to them, personally.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Shimshon,

Yeshua tells us For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All, is not fulfilled. The Prophecies of the New Covenant, have not been completely fulfilled. End Days have yet to come. Therefore, All is not Fulfilled.

God does not lie.

[mpossoff]

This faith comes by hearing the Word proclaimed through the law and the prophets. But it most assuredly comes through the Word that was spoken into the hearts of his children.

Hear or Sh'ma means to obey. Faith and obedience(doing) is one of the same. If you don't do you didn't hear.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

I like this translation:

Does it follow that we abolish Torah and make it invalid through emunah(personal faith, trust)? Chas v'shalom! Aderaba (to the contrary), we uphold the Torah.

Romans 10:4 Yeshua is not the end of the Torah, He is the target that the Torah points us to. He is our example that the Torah can be obeyed.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

What law is He referring too?

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Shimshon,

Yeshua tells us For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All, is not fulfilled. The Prophecies of the New Covenant, have not been completely fulfilled. End Days have yet to come. Therefore, All is not Fulfilled.

God does not lie.

If you really believe this as you have stated it then you are conemned by the very law you proclaim, for unless you make a sin offering and take part in the atonement through the blood of the sacrifice in the temple officiated by Levites there is no forgivness and you will bear your own sins. That is the law of Moshe.

So either Yeshua was mistaken, or you do not understand what he was saying. And personally meaning no offense but I believe it is the latter. Torah did not pass away unfulfilled or void. It accomplished its purpose and it brought forth the plan of God. The law was transformed and made full, brought to its correct meaning. Just as I said above, there is still an atonement sacrifice today, but it is not the blood of a Goat in the hands of a Levite in Jerusalem, it is the blood of Yeshua in the tabernacle of heaven with Yeshua being our high priest. He didn't cancel or remove the atonement, he fulfilled it and brought it to its full and correct meaning that the old law only projected in types and shadows. It was the image of things to come but not the reality of them.

Col 2: [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[mpossoff]

If you really believe this as you have stated it then you are conemned by the very law you proclaim, for unless you make a sin offering and take part in the atonement through the blood of the sacrifice in the temple officiated by Levites there is no forgivness and you will bear your own sins. That is the law of Moshe.

First there is no temple.

Second Jesus fulfilled that. He fulfilled it as He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Moses said He was coming as well as the prophets.

Col 2: [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Taking out of context. You have to look at the present time it was written.

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Which means that it is future.

Marc

[Wags]

I always thought that the word perpetual meant "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." So what about the perpetual ordiances, statutes and covenants? If they are not supposed to last forever, then why is the term perpetual used?



Ex 12:14 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+12:14&version=nrs&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - This day shall be a day of remembrance for you. You shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord; throughout your generations you shall observe it as a perpetual ordinance.

Ex 12:17 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+12:17&version=nrs&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - You shall observe the festival of unleavened bread, for on this very day I brought your companies out of the land of Egypt: you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a perpetual ordinance.

Nu 15:15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+15:15&version=nrs&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - As for the assembly, there shall be for both you and the resident alien a single statute, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you and the alien shall be alike before the Lord.

Ex 31:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+31:16&version=nrs&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Therefore the Israelites shall keep the sabbath, observing the sabbath throughout their generations, as a perpetual covenant.

Le 3:17 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+3:17&version=nrs&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, in all your settlements: you must not eat any fat or any blood.

[Shimshon]

11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

The law states whoever, Jew or Gentile, believes in him will not be put to shame. I agree. The law stands. Our 'work' is to believe in him and not be put to shame but to glorify God by believing in what he said, and what he did, and what he will do for us. According to his righteousness, which comes to us APART from the law.

Jew or gentile.

4 For Messiah is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


I like this translation. I don't know which one you posted mspoff. But this one is much more accurate.

Not the end of the law. So wags, please don't accuse me of that again, as you have done before. It states and I repeat it, the end of the law 'for righteousness'.

Why are you all teaching there is life in DOING the works of the law? That our life once saved is to walk in the ordinances given to Yisrael? This is the life God calls us to? To observe the law given Moshe? Nobody is justified by them. We are justifed by FAITH in what God said.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

God has been manifested APART from the law. where? In works and deeds of the law that he predested you to walk? He is manifest in your 'observances'? Yeshua saved you to walk in the Law?


Or to BE a law, for righteouness. And that not of your own but for God.

Yes, the Lord does not change one iota....


Malachi 3:1-6 1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years. 5 Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts. 6 For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. He will save his children. He will not change this for nothing. But judgement is already declared for all who do not 'believe' his Words.

And the Law and the prophets testify to this very thing.

That the covenant is broken, because of 'unfaithfulness' by Yisrael. That the messenger of the covenant will come and the Lord will enter his temple, our BODIES. This is why the question of who can stand or bear it. Because who can stand in the presense of the living God and live? Except those who God comes to dwell with, within. Those who are being made holy for his glory.

The offerings will be pleasing because they are offering from their hearts, not from an ordiance or law.

Yisrael fell because she focused too much on the observances and not at all on the heart condition of the observer.

The calls to return were not to the works of the law. They always 'worked' the law. But they did not work it with the Spirit God intended. They made it out to be works of righteousness. When it was the faith in the creator that was going to actually bring them life.

Yisrael was set with king, temple, gold, servants, armies...all the glories of this world. And yet they rejected the One who gave them, God. They did not believe God meant what he said about 'faith, love, mercy' and they operated the law without these things. And thus they broke the covenant made with them regarding these things.

And God was/is just to die, and make a new covenant with the remnant, of Yisrael.

ALL this is in the law and the prophets.....your right I am speaking NOTHING new. I am just proclaiming the Word that was given me to witness. The same words given to the prophets. I believe God when he said he will not change, that he will not consume but save us. I believe not one jot nor title is done away with, because it is by faith that one is found righteous in the sight of God, not by works. Nor by works once we are saved.

I know my God because I have accepted his call to live within me. Not because I have studied the accounts of others who lived with him.

And I would never forsake anyone who upholds these truths. For it is the Lord himself forsakes those who reject what he has said from his holy mount. I am just a witness.

There is a covenant made by Yeshua, it is not like the covenant made with our fathers. The Lord has come and entered his temple. He is serving as high preist as we speak, forever. We are living letters to the glory of God. We are a temple of the Lord, we are his children. Both those who are circumcised and those who are not. Through faith in Yeshua and his Life. His words, His person. Ani Maamim.

[Charles YTK]

I always thought that the word perpetual meant "continuing or enduring forever; everlasting." So what about the perpetual ordiances, statutes and covenants? If they are not supposed to last forever, then why is the term perpetual used?

Then why are they not being done today?

If an accord was reached today allowing the Jews of the temple mount faithful to set up the tabernacle (Tent of meeting) on the temple mount, which I blieve they already have built, and the sacrifices were resumed, would you see this as a good thing? Would you be anxious to go to Israel to take part in the sacrifices?

[Shimshon]

throughout your generationswho's generation are you in? Does Yeshua have a 'geneology' of his children? Or are we all identified through our 'Spiritual' dna?

We are generation Yeshua, not generations of Yisrael. We are the 'remnant' of Yisrael, not Yisrael who broke her covenant.

[mpossoff]

Then why are they not being done today?

That's not the point. The point is He said forever, perpetual.

What does perpetual mean?

Marc

[Shimshon]

Hebrews 7:1-10 1 For this Malki-Tzedek, king of Shalem, Kohen of El `Elyon, who met Avraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Avraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, King of righteousness, and then also King of Shalem, which is King of shalom; 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God), remains a Kohen continually.


Matthew 12:38-45 38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you. 39 But he answered them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. 43 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. 44 Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.

[Charles YTK]

That's not the point. The point is He said forever, perpetual.

What does perpetual mean?

Marc
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Under which covenant were these perpetual things given? The Sinai. They were not given to Noach to do, not to Abraham. They were given to Israel as long as they kept the covenant and were remaining in the lands of Israel, the only place that they can be done. They were perpetual, done year after year, month by month, as long as they were in that covenant relationship with God. They broke that covenant and God took away the temple the Levites ans scattered the people. Today he offers a New Covenant. That is the one we must accept and live by.

[Charles YTK]

HEB 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

HEB 7: [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

[18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

[mpossoff]

Under which covenant were these perpetual things given? The Sinai. They were not given to Noach to do, not to Abraham. They were given to Israel as long as they kept the covenant and were remaining in the lands of Israel, the only place that they can be done. They were perpetual, done year after year, month by month, as long as they were in that covenant relationship with God. They broke that covenant and God took away the temple the Levites ans scattered the people. Today he offers a New Covenant. That is the one we must accept and live by.

Deuteronomy 30 answers your question as it is yet future.

1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Has the above happened yet?

Charles with all do respect G-d never said obey Me and you will remain my people, disobey Me and I'll cast you off forever. He is still in Covenant. It's about obedience and disobedience. Whenever you see Israel taken captive take a close look at why. It's because they were disobedient. Definately not punishment. Chastizement. Same applies yesterday, today and tomorrow.

It's 'wild' that Aaron's priesthood is forever. You have to do a study to get a good understanding.

Marc

[stone]

Everybody here lives by love

[Charles YTK]

Deuteronomy 30 answers your question as it is yet future.

1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Has the above happened yet?

Charles with all do respect G-d never said obey Me and you will remain my people, disobey Me and I'll cast you off forever. He is still in Covenant. It's about obedience and disobedience. Whenever you see Israel taken captive take a close look at why. It's because they were disobedient. Definately not punishment. Chastizement. Same applies yesterday, today and tomorrow.

It's 'wild' that Aaron's priesthood is forever. You have to do a study to get a good understanding.

Marc

The Sinai covenant is not the covenant that makes them his people. It is the Abrahamic covenant which is unrevokable that establishes the people of Israel as Gods people and gives them the land. The Sinai covenant promises that if they are faithful to him as God he will bless them in the land.

DT 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: [13] And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. [14] Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. [15] And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.



And they have been scattered to the nations. And they are being recalled to the land. And if they come in faith toward God's messiah they will receive the rest of the promises as in Jeremiah 31 which all who believe in Yeshua do receive.

Here are the attributes of those who are in the New covenant, either as first fruits and later as the full harvest when Messiah returns:

I will put my Torah in their inward parts,

and write it in their hearts;

I will be their God

they shall be my people.

they shall all know me,

I will forgive their iniquity,

I will remember their sin no more.


EZE 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,

ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols,

I will cleanse you.

A new heart also will I give you,

a new spirit will I put within you

I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

I will give you an heart of flesh.

I will put my spirit within you,

I will cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

ISA 56:5 Even unto them (Eunuchs) will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters:

I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off

the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer:

their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;


for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

[Charles YTK]

Everybody here lives by love
Yes we all live by love. But now look at this and other posts above.

He is still in Covenant. It's about obedience and disobedience. Whenever you see Israel taken captive take a close look at why. It's because they were disobedient

We are not in the old covenant and God does not deal with us as he did with Israel. It is not about obedience to law. It is about faithfulness to God through the indwelling of his spirit. If I break the law I am not cursed as before.

RO 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is strictly New Covenant and not Old Covenant.

[Shimshon]

5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Has the above happened yet?

I do believe every messianic I have ever met sees 1947-8 as being the fulfillment of this, and other prophesies conserning the regathering of his people to the land. Every messianic rabbi I ever spoke to eludes to such a fulfillment.

And verse 6 is what Shaul speaks of when he speaks of being dead to this world and alive in Messiah.


Colossians 2:4-12 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. 6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. We are pruned by the Words Yeshua spoke. As they pruned the disciples they also prune us.


John 15:1-8 1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn't bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

8 But if we died with Messiah, we believe that we will also live with him;

9 knowing that Messiah, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.Dead to sin, to transgression of the law. We who are alive in Messiah, being in union with the Almighty, do not trransgress the law. We fulfill the law through union in Messiah.

Do you not believe this has happened yet? Are you in union with Messiah and does his Spirit live and breath through you. Or are we to know God is in you by the works of the law you observe?

Can we tell your righteous because you observe the law given Yisrael as if you have no problem accomplishing them? Or because the Lord lives and breathes in you?

[mpossoff]

We are not in the old covenant and God does not deal with us as he did with Israel. It is not about obedience to law. It is about faithfulness to God through the indwelling of his spirit. If I break the law I am not cursed as before.

Charles are you implying that a Covenant can anul another?

RO 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is strictly New Covenant and not Old Covenant.

God does not change. Moses (as directed by God), also taught "salvation by faith,"... being born again

Yeshua told Nicodemus..."You're a teacher and you don't know what being born again is?

Deuteronomy 30:1 - And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee,


God says that the Torah He has given, is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing to those who follow it in faith and a curse to those who do not.


Deuteronomy 30:6 - And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


Circumcision of the heart is the same as being born again. This is what Yeshua was referring to with Nicodemus. Nicodemus should have known this.


The New Covenant that you are saying it is was already in existence in the TaNaK.


Can we tell your righteous because you observe the law given Yisrael as if you have no problem accomplishing them? Or because the Lord lives and breathes in you?


King David himself claimed that he followed God's Torah without fault?



WAIT!!!!! He did? He committed some 'big sins'!


This is because God has always demanded faith first, which is always accompanied by a love and desire to learn and follow His Torah.


So yes David did follow Torah without fault because he had faith first.


Marc

[mpossoff]

Do you not believe this has happened yet? Are you in union with Messiah and does his Spirit live and breath through you. Or are we to know God is in you by the works of the law you observe?

Yes it did happen. I have placed my trust in G-d through Yeshua and am turned in the direction of obeying His Torah, striving for perfection.

Question is has ALL been fulfilled?

Has heaven and earth passed away?

Marc

[LadyGarnetRose]

I'm going to say this and be done because I find this entire conversation nauseating already.

Works of the Law... our fruits are how we know each other.

Types of works of the law...loving God, loving our neighbors, loving ourselves. Being that is all that Torah boils down to. How we treat others and how we want to be treated.

We are called not to be worldly. So why worry what others think if you dress differently or refuse to eat that which was deemed unclean?

We are called not to listen to the Laws of Man...

Yet so many do. And I'm noticing it here too...

The canons that all that is Jewish is to be abandoned...

Canons that I'm learning more and more about and becoming sicker and sicker in my heart from.

Canons that have been passed down and scripture used in such a way to support,

the attempted removal of all that is Jewish, from Yeshua.

Yeshua never abolished the Law. God never told us to stop reading Torah.

God told us, that until the end days, the law stands.

You observe what is applicable to you.

You do not observe that which is not applicable to you.

Just as Yeshua told the Pharisees in regards to ceremonial hand washing...

[Charles YTK]

Mpossoff,

No! Sorry but the things that are given in the New Covenant were not given to all men before in the Old Covenant. It was a new thing. It would not and could not happen until after the sacrifice of Messiah. Why do you think the disciples and the people were so astounded a the outpouring of the spirit on Shavuot? It was something that never happened in the past except to judges Kings and priests. And even then it was conditional. They could loose this anointing. but we do not lose it even when we sin, the spirit hangs in there with us to bring us back to life.

If everything is just the same as it was in the old covenant, then what good purpose did Yeshua serve? Why did we need Messiah? We had plenty of prophets before to tell us to follow the law. Yeshua came to give us new life by the spirit.

Show me from scripture where all the common people of the O.T. received the Holy Spirit in response to their faith. Show me where their sins were fogiven once and for all and they would no longer need to make sacrifices of animals.

Yeshua did not come to empower us to keep the law of Israel. He came to give us new life by the indwelling of His Spirit and to begin the Kingdom of God, not the continuation of Israel. If he came to continue Israel then he was an utter failure because in less than a generation Israel was destroyed scattered to the nations not to return for 2 millennia. BUT,, The Kingdom of God
DID go forth to the nations in the rebirth of the spirit in the hearts of men of all people. Remember that Gospel part of the New Testament. It is the good news.

[Charles YTK]

I'm going to say this and be done because I find this entire conversation nauseating already.

Why can no one just address the OP?

Works of the Law... our fruits are how we know each other.

Types of works of the law...loving God, loving our neighbors, loving ourselves. Being that is all that Torah boils down to. How we treat others and how we want to be treated.

I agree. Well said.

We are called not to be worldly. So why worry what others think if you dress differently or refuse to eat that which was deemed unclean?

I agree Kosher food laws are also Kingdom principles according to the prophets.

We are called not to listen to the Laws of Man...

Yet so many do. And I'm noticing it here too...

I am not sure what you mean here. But we are to be lawful people. We bear some responsibility to civil authority.

The canons that all that is Jewish is to be abandoned...

Nothing that is Canon is abandoned far as I know. There are different parts that apply to different people. Would you kill your son for talking back to you or for striking you as Torah calls for? No. That was for another time and place.

Canons that I'm learning more and more about and becoming sicker and sicker in my heart from.

Canons that have been passed down and scripture used in such a way to support,

the attempted removal of all that is Jewish, from Yeshua.

You must be speaking of the ECF.

Yeshua never abolished the Law. God never told us to stop reading Torah.

Yes I agree. He fulfilled it and wrote it upon our hearts in a way that applies to the Kingdom of God and not just the lands of Israel.

God told us, that until the end days, the law stands.

They do stand as teachings lessons and the revelation of the character of God. The ordinances do not apply to those who are not part of Israel living in the lands under the shadow of the temple system. The law as it was given to them is no longer kept by the Jews in Israel and can not be kept by a Gentile like me in the U.S.

You observe what is applicable to you.

You do not observe that which is not applicable to you.

Yes I agree.

Just as Yeshua told the Pharisees in regards to ceremonial hand washing...

That was a Rabbinical law of Ritual purity and not a Torah command.

[mpossoff]

Show me from scripture where all the common people of the O.T. received the Holy Spirit in response to their faith. Show me where their sins were fogiven once and for all and they would no longer need to make sacrifices of animals.

Charles I agreed with you in regards to the above that He fulfilled and was the Ultimate sacrifice.

Never said that their was scripture in the OT that the Holy Spirit was received.

I did say Deuteronomy 30:6 - And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


Circumcision of the heart is the same as being born again. This is what Yeshua was referring to with Nicodemus. Nicodemus should have known this.

Marc

[Wags]

Yeshua said:

"Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19)

"If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments". (John 14:15)

"They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them." (John 14:21)


1 John 2:3-6 3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments.4 Whoever says, "I have come to know him," but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, "I abide in him," ought to walk just as he walked.


1 John 3:24All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.


1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.

[Wags]

4 For Messiah is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I like this translation. I don't know which one you posted mspoff. But this one is much more accurate.

Not the end of the law. So wags, please don't accuse me of that again, as you have done before. It states and I repeat it, the end of the law 'for righteousness'.

Why are you all teaching there is life in DOING the works of the law? That our life once saved is to walk in the ordinances given to Yisrael? This is the life God calls us to? To observe the law given Moshe? Nobody is justified by them. We are justifed by FAITH in what God said.


Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

[Charles YTK]

1 John 2:3-6 3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments.4 Whoever says, "I have come to know him," but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, "I abide in him," ought to walk just as he walked.


1 John 3:24All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.


1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.



MT 22: [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


And what commandments did God speak at Sinai and write on stones? Only the Ten. Not the ordinances given to Israel for the running of that nation. If we keep these we have done well.

[Charles YTK]

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified.



[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, . . .[17] Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, [18] And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; [19] And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, [20] An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. [21] Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? [22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[Wags]

MT 22: [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


And what commandments did God speak at Sinai and write on stones? Only the Ten. Not the ordinances given to Israel for the running of that nation. If we keep these we have done well.
Yeshua didn't say they hung on the 10 commandments. He said they hung upon ALL of the law and the prophets.

If only the 10 commandments matter in the New Covenant then I'm sure you can point me to scripture that clearly states this.

[Charles YTK]

Yeshua didn't say they hung on the 10 commandments. He said they hung upon ALL of the law and the prophets.

If only the 10 commandments matter in the New Covenant then I'm sure you can point me to scripture that clearly states this.

No, that is not what he said. He said all the law and the prophets hang upon the two, loving God and loving your neighbor.

No I did not say that only the Ten commands are in the New Covenant. I said they are part of it. To see the New Covenant Torah we need to see the ten commands as Yeshua taught them, the teachings of Messiah and the Aposltes and the words of the prophets concerning the Kingdom of God. This as I pointed out seems to include things like Kosher diet for it is mentioned in the prophets, and keeping at least Tabernacles, as it is mentioned.

What is not mentioned anywhere for the Kingdom is the ordiances given to Israel for the running of that nation. Yes I agree that some of those will be valid again in Israel for example the sacrificial service if we are understanding Ezekiel correctly as a literal prophecy. But none of those apply to the folks outside of Israel.

Look Wags, you are always fighting this message in order to defend your love for doing the Jewish traditions. You are free to do them. What you can not do is say that we are directed by Messiah or the Apostles to do them. I do not believe you can show any scriptures that demonstrate the Aposltes telling us that we must all keep the 613 laws given to Israel. You can not negate the book of Hebrews because it is disagreeable to your theology of Torah observance. You say the law never changes, but the writer of Hebrews says it was changed. So does Messiah as he expounds on the law. You seem always ready to defend observance to law even at the cost of the reality of the New Covenant, the Gospel of Yeshua, the Kingdom of God, the rebirth in the spirit and anything else that is standing in the way of validation of Torah obedience. The answer for me is easy, just read the scriptures and it tells you what the Gospel is and that the law had to change and what the Kingdom of God is about. Taking a few favorite texts of the Messianic teachers and trying to use that to set everything else aside in not good theology. The word has to work together. Yes it says he who loves the Lord will keep his commandments. But it also says "This is his commadment, that you love one another."

I posted this OP to show that the Sinai covenant is defined in terms of the words that God spoke, the ten commands. And then God instructs Moshe to give to Israel, ordinances for running that nation. The only person to even approach the OP was Tishri1. No one else wanted to even think about it. Someone might have said, "Yes Charles, you might be on to something. Lets see if this has an impact on my personal understanding." Or someone could have said, "No Charles you are full of dung, because here is the scriptures that show it is not that way." No one was able or willing to do either. All people want to do is fend off any threat to your infatuation with doing Jewish customs and finding some validation for it in scripture. I do not want to defend my beliefs by something that is a popular teaching but has no foundaton in the scriptures.

[Wags]

Pot calling the kettle black Charles. Many have tried to show you from scripture that you are incorrect, but you have repeatedly refused to listen to them.

[Charles YTK]

Wags, this is a completely empty statement. No one has produced a scripture demonstrating the disciples tell the new believers that they must be totally obedient to all the details of the Torahs 613 laws. If it is so easy to prove then do it now and don't claim that someone else has already done so, because they haven't. If it is such an obvious thing, just post it.

You know, people forget that the New Testment scriptures were all written when the Temple was still standing, with the possible exception of Hebrews which I believe was written after. Acts 2 says The disciples met daily in the temple and broke bread from house to house. Yes, that's what acts says. But they did this only for a very short time about 38 years and only Jews who were raised in the temple system. This was a trans-covenant church with both covenants still open and operational. But within one generation the temple Judaism of Moshe is history, ashes and the Levites gone and the nation scattered. There would be no more meeting in the temple daily. The old covenant and the means to keep the instructions of that Covenant were taken away. The New Covenant is what God was offering. He wasn't giving anyone a choice. And he wasn't putting new Messianic paint on the old temple. What did yeshua say about the temple system," Look, your house is left to you desolate" And "Not one stone will be left standing upon the other" and Jerusalem will be sacked. Yeshua didn't tell the disciples to refine and make new glory for the Old Covenant, he spoke of the end of that covenant and the need to enter the New Covenant and to become born again to enter the Kingdom of God.

So show me this great and uncontestable proof from scripture that says the believers in Messiah are saved by or required to maintain the Old Covenant, Please!

As this thread points out according to the Torah itself, only the ten commandments are the Torah of the Sinai covenant, those are the words God spoke, which the people heard and agreed to and which God wrote on the stones placed in the Ark of the covenant. The rest that was given is not the covenant Torah, it is the law of the lands of Israel.

So keep the covenant Torah. That is great! And it is the heart of what Messiah teachs from the law as well. He says nothing about Tzitzi, or Tefilim, or lighting Sabbath candles, or how we need to do a better job in how we handle the ashes of the red heifer.

Why put a new paint job on a car that you are sending to the junk yard? The temple system was marked for demonlition. The house was left desolate. It had been that was for a long time. The priesthood was corrupt and the temple was like graves, filled with the bones of dead men, that is what he said. He called them theives and vipers. The Shekinah of God left the Temple before the Babylonians sacked the first temple. There is nothing that says he ever came back to the New Temple, is there? The New Herodian Temple had an empty room for a holy of holies. There wasn't even the Ark of the covenant let alone the Shekiah of God. It was all a work of man, a fasad of its former glory. The only time the New temple ever had God's glory in it was when Yeshua graced it's halls with his presence to teach the people.

We beheld that Glory. And he wants to live in the New temple, inside of us. That is where the spirit is to be living and where Messiah is seen among the people. Not in temples made of stone.

[mpossoff]

Charles what about the literal Temple 'In the World to Come'?

See this is what we are waiting for. He's coming back again and He will command 'Temple worship'. I'd love to see how the priesthood of Aaron is going to 'play' in all this as He said the priesthood of Aaron is forever and now we have a High Priest. How can the Aaron priesthood and our High Priest 'co-exist'? I have no idea but scripture says so.

And the Temple isn't a spirtual concept, scripture says it will be a real Temple.

Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

The above is not yet fulfilled.So I can see your 'mindset' at present, although I don't totally agree.

The Land has alot to do with it. Yeshua, the Land and Israel are 'connected' so to speak.

Now granted there isn't a Temple.

Sort of like a 'dispensationalist' type of view so to speak. There was the 'Old Covenant' and now there is the 'New Covenant'. A Western concept. 'Hebraically' speaking with a Hebraic mindset is much different than a Western concept and/or Greek mindset.

I used to have a Western/Greek mindset. Actually I used to be a 'Christian' and dis-regarded the Torah. It wasn't until I studied scripture in the way it was inteneded from a Hebraic way of think. Paul's writings are EXTREMELY Hebraic which is why they are hard to comprehend. I will tell you one can't read Paul's writings without truly knowing how he was thinking as he studied under one of the well known teachers in the Sanhedrin.

So I can relate because I was there.

I won't try to convince anyone as the NT is EXTREMELY hard to study for one it was written in Greek and it's hard to get the Hebraic writings from Greek unles you are diligent enough to study.

So I'm not even going to 'go there' as I've been there before. You can talk to people 'til your blue in the face'. Once you discover that the NT is not by any means contrary to the OT then you will be able to see it. It's like WOW!!! How come I was never knew this before!!!!

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Mspossoff,

I agree that one must be well read in the Tanakh before they can get a real understanding of what the Brit Hadasha says. And to know the cultural context as well. Visit my own homepage and you will see that I have written volumes on the subject and take the word apart in this way so that it can be understood exposing its cultural and historic context.

The New Earthly temple according to Ezekiel is located in Jerusalem and has Zadokites as piests. The sarifices are there and the Moedim except for one which is missing, the most important one of all, Atonement. It is gone. And this was not an oversight by Ezekiel as he himself was a priest. No, the answer is that Atonement was made once for all in the tabernacle of heaven by Yeshua with his own blood.

The Earthly temple system of the Millennial kingdom will serve an important function. It will demonstrate to a world that is purged of most of it's evil, what the cost of sin was and what price was paid by Messiah to redeem us. And as always it serves as a place of worship and fellowship with God. Its festivals and sacrifices will be memorials looking back at the reality of Mesiahs salvation. I am not sure Yeshua will be high priest in a daily sort of way. I blieve his duties will turn more to being King over the Kingdom, and much of the temple service will be handled by the Zadokites.

As High priest today he serves in the tabernale of Heaven. Flesh and blood people can not go there. People who have been saved and who at the second coming are resurrected or glorified will have a new immortal body. They can go to that heavenly tabernacle. The rest of surviving humanity will have flesh bodies in a disease free, pollution free enviornment to live in which will provide for them long extended lives like before the flood. The Earthly Temple will serve their needs. Perhaps those with the glorified body will worship at the Tabernacle of heaven or traverse from one to another as they wish. There is much yet to be discovered as the scriptures and the prophets only give us a glance at it.

[Wags]

So Charles, what happened the other times the temple was destroyed?

In Matthew 23 Yeshua says about the P'rushim " Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t'fillin broad and their tzitziyot long" If He wanted folks not to wear t'fillin then why didn't he say so right then and there? All he said was that they were doing it for show - in other words their motive for doing it was wrong.

And for the record, as I previously posted in another thread, I did re-examine this topic and my point of view did change.

Paul said that the old is becoming obsolete, not that it is obsolete. You seem to think that he was saying this becuase the temple was about to be destroyed. I think that he was saying this becuase he expected Messiah to return within his lifetime, and of course with the return of Messiah then the new age would be ushered in. When Messiah returns then the New Covenant will be fully and completely in force. Until then it is not fully in force because not ALL has been fullfilled and heaven and earth have not yet passed away.

We have been betrothed to our bridegroom, but he is still building us a place in his Father's house. When he returns the wedding will take place and the union will be consumated.

[Charles YTK]

So Charles, what happened the other times the temple was destroyed?

In Matthew 23 Yeshua says about the P'rushim " Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t'fillin broad and their tzitziyot long" If He wanted folks not to wear t'fillin then why didn't he say so right then and there? All he said was that they were doing it for show - in other words their motive for doing it was wrong.

And for the record, as I previously posted in another thread, I did re-examine this topic and my point of view did change.

Paul said that the old is becoming obsolete, not that it is obsolete. You seem to think that he was saying this becuase the temple was about to be destroyed. I think that he was saying this becuase he expected Messiah to return within his lifetime, and of course with the return of Messiah then the new age would be ushered in. When Messiah returns then the New Covenant will be fully and completely in force. Until then it is not fully in force because not ALL has been fullfilled and heaven and earth have not yet passed away.

We have been betrothed to our bridegroom, but he is still building us a place in his Father's house. When he returns the wedding will take place and the union will be consumated.


First off I will remind you that You have not yet provided this proof text that shows the disciples telling the believers to perfect their Torah observance in the 613 laws.

Becoming obsolete? I think you are referring to Hebrews 8:13, correct me if I am wrong. Let me say first that the authorship of Hebrews is not known and only half of the scholars attribute it to Paul. I do not. It has similarities that can be seen in greetings and such but these may have been common protochol of the time. There are other very typical Pauline characteristics missing and the subject matter is not like that of Pauls.

However when we look at Hebrew8:13 it says.

KJV: [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In this the word "Covenant" is added and not in the original text. The subject is assumed and possibly incorretly as the subject of the chapter is the "Priesthood" which resides within the covenant. The writer is talking about the superior nature of the ministery of Christ in the line of Melchezidek compared to the inferior priesthood of Aaronic Levites under the Old Covenant.

Some important historical information that is not widely known and recently revealed is that the Levites continued to officiate the sacrifices on the fallen temple ruins from 70 CE to 135 CE when finally Rome expelled all the Jews. If we take this all into account, the writer of Hebrews may have already witnessed the fall of the temple and saw the priests sacrificing on the ruins and knew that it was all about to end as Roman pressure was extreme.

I say the priests were officiating a cancelled Covenant on the ruins in a strickly fleshy attempt to avoid the obvious truth, the end had already come. The life and glory of Judaism left the temple when Messiah was drug off to Golgotha.

But we can consider God's finger print, as I have said before; the first covenant was given on Shavuot after the Passover, but the people lacked faith and so God sends them into the wilderness to purge out faithlessness. And then they are told to enter the promised land 38 years and 4 months later.

Then in the time of Yeshua, he is sacrificed on Passover, the New Covenant is given, on Shvuot, but the people lacked faith. So again for 38 years and 4 months the people are given time to wander in the wilderness of unfaithfulness and then it is finished, the temple is destroyed, the Covenant (New Covenant) is the only covenant and the old is passed on. The end of this 38 years 4 months is Tisha b'Av, when the temple was destroyed. I feel it was not coincedent that this all happened in the same time frames and in fulfillment of the prophetic nature of the feast days given.

So yes we are betrothed and we await the bridegroom, but our marriage is biding, a sure thing. We live already as members of the New Covenant in the form of first fruits, but there is yet a time coming when the Lord returns and all the earth will be thrust headlong into the Kingdom and under the covenant.

Of those first Israelites who wandered in the wilderness, they had the covenant from the shavuot at Sinai, but they did not enter the pomised land for 38 years. They were as first fruits. I am speaking of the faithful of Israel. All the unfaithful died in te wilderness.

The Lords delay is because of his infinite mercy.

I do agree with yu that Paul did expect the Lord to return at any moment, at least in his first writings. Later on he had sort of given up on that idea and was in his later writings speaking more of "Christ in you" than "Christ is coming". He seemed to be resolved to the idea that there was going to be a long wait. And then he is killed before the temple was destroyed, maybe a year before. However Paul was in pretty tight with his Roman friends and a prisoner in Rome, (under house arrest) and may have known of the coming destruction. The Jewish wars were in full swing.

We have the advantage of hind-sight. We know that the temple did fall and by 135 the Priesthood was ended, and the New Templess Rabbinical Judaism was being formed in Yavneh. From that time it has been impossible to keep the Torah even as a nation, wth every man doing all that he could. It lacked the very heart of it, the temple sacrifices. But for those who know Messiah, our sacrifice is made and final, "It is Finished!"

[stone]

Charles,

What is your point?

[Charles YTK]

When I am not chasing down rabbit trails, the point is that the Sinai covenant is tied together with its Covenant Torah which is only the words spoken by God, the ten commandments. These alone were given as stipulations of the covenant, spoken by God, understood by all men in their own language, agreed to by men, and written on tables of stone and placed in the ark.

The rest of the laws and statutues and ordinances have to do with the regulation of life in the lands of Israel and under the administration of a sacrifical system operated by the Levites. These ordincane seem to have been the responsibility of Moshe and not spoken by God. And they serve another purpose. They are tied to living in the land.

The ten commandments are the eternal global law given by God for all men as represented in the mixed multitude that received them. The ten can be kept anywhere not just in connetion with the Lands of Israel.

I am not sure why this biblical fact is such an afront to Messianic theology.

Deut 4: [12] And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.


DT 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

[LadyGarnetRose]

So, the Lord did not speak in DT 4:14?

The Lord commanded Moses to teach statutes and judgements so that they would be done in where ever they might reside.

Sounds like Diaspora to me.

[stone]

Charles,

I think that if your going to make an argument that everyone here can understand and follow along with your gonna have to chart out all 603 of the statutes and ordanances with the 10 commandments on top.

I've been wanting to break it down for awhile now, just so busy.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Charles,

I think that if your going to make an argument that everyone here can understand and follow along with your gonna have to chart out all 603 of the statutes and ordanances with the 10 commandments on top.

I've been wanting to break it down for awhile now, just so busy.
I'm working on it...and it's giving me a headache (still haven't unsubscribed, keep forgetting, maybe I'm not supposed to hmmm)

[Tishri1]

I love to hear the history Stuff Charles like the 38 years 4 months stuff is awesome....:thumbsup:


and I love to talk about the New Covenant:thumbsup:


I just dont like to be associated with those negative things you talked about in this thread....as if I am somehow being unfaithful to Yeshua if I choose to light Shabbat candles:(

[Charles YTK]

So, the Lord did not speak in DT 4:14?

The Lord commanded Moses to teach statutes and judgements so that they would be done in where ever they might reside.

Sounds like Diaspora to me.
That is correct God does not speak beyond the 10 commands. This is accurate to the account in Ex 19. Then he speaks only with Moshe to give them instruction for how to regulate life in Israel. No!, not the Diaspora. There would be no temple or priests in the Diaspora. The instructions are specifically to be done "in the land that I am giving to you." In the lands of Israel. That is where God's theocracy is to be formed as the Kingdom of Israel. The boundries of that are given, and the instruction for those who travel outside of he land for a time for business and such. It requires them to return to Israel to perform the festivals and sacrifices.

[Charles YTK]

Charles,

I think that if your going to make an argument that everyone here can understand and follow along with your gonna have to chart out all 603 of the statutes and ordanances with the 10 commandments on top.

I've been wanting to break it down for awhile now, just so busy.
It is something that I have been working on but it is not a small task. I have tried even in this forum to solicit the help of other to compile such a thing, noting which of the 613 are Israel specific and which are global. Most of the ethic laws are global. Most of the ceremonial laws are local. probably all of the laws for land ownership and inheritance and such are local only. If you have studied the 613 then you know that they have a form or redundancy, where a command is broken down into several and the assumed mirror of it is stated as a command as well. If you are to do not harm to a neighbor, then it is also stated that you must do only good to your neighbor.

[Charles YTK]

I love to hear the history Stuff Charles like the 38 years 4 months stuff is awesome....:thumbsup:


and I love to talk about the New Covenant:thumbsup:


I just dont like to be associated with those negative things you talked about in this thread....as if I am somehow being unfaithful to Yeshua if I choose to light Shabbat candles:(
I am just giving examples of things that we might do and are OK to do but are not commanded by God. Even Purim and Chanucha are secular or historical holidays and not moedim. It is fine to do them so long as we understand they are just Jewish traditions, much like American holidays of Thanksgiving and independence day.

You need to understand my heart Tishri, and I think you do but other do not. They see me as a bad guy tearing away at the faith. This is not the case at all. I am trying to add Muscle to Messainics, adding facts to faith, replacing fanacticism with foundation.

Look understand this, I am Messainic, and I love the Messianic form of worship. But there are things that we do that is not required by God. We do them because they are Jewish in nature, or they help us to stay focused on our life in God, or they are just plain fun and edifying to us. But if we want to teach others why we do them we have to be factual, honest. We can either demonstrate that we are supposed to do them according to the teachings of Messiah, or we do them because it is fun for us.

Please don't be offended in this, but I have been to a Star Trek Convention. And it was fun. Folks all dressed up in Star fleet uniforms or as Borg or Klingons. It was fun. But it is not reality and most rememebr this and the next day put on their suits and go to the office like everyone else. I think that in the Messainic faith some people put on their Jewish costume and take upon them a character that they think transports them to another time and place so that they like the trekkies become part of that other world experience, but they want to believe or truely do believe it is the truth of who we are suposed to be. I know one Gentile who acquired a Jewish Yiddish accent. Was pretty good at it too.

I am trying to build a firm foundation of truth under what we claim to be. If someone asks me, "Why do you guys do things this way?" I can say honestly, "just because it adds Jewish flavor to our experience". Or I can say, "this is what the Lord told us to do." And then be able to make an air tight case for it from scripture.

First step I think is to determine what is given to us, and what was not. The church of the scriptures only lasted 40 odd years, and then we loose all sight of it and when it shows up again it is Romanized. We need to see that thing in between. Because that is who we really are believers in Messiah Yeshua saved by his sacrifice, members of the New covenant, living according to the greater principles of Gods word as they are written on our hearts.

I know and am convinced that the ten commands are universal in nature and apply to all men who know God. I am not convinced at all that the ordinaces given to Israel are Global/universal. But I do allow that some of that is good practice and have value as personal codes of ethics and such.

We live in a time when God is saving the nations, the Gentiles, the heathens. And he saves us AS Gentiles. He does not convert us to Jews first. He takes us as Gentiles who believe and receive his spirit and have the global/universal laws written our hearts and grafts us into the family of all those who have faith. It's really that simple. We add so much other stuf to it that really is not needed. OK to do but not what God is calling us to do. Our faith and doctrine should be beyond reproach, otherwise we could have all stayed denominational christians.

[Tishri1]

Now this is something I can Agree with!!!!

we should make a list of the things required and a separate for the things adopted or adapted however you say i,t for pleasure and personal growth

Stone did you say this was something you had looked into?

It would also be nice to show the messianic link in some of these things as well(we dont have to go crazy and give everything a Meassianic Meaning, but some clearly do remind us of our relationship with Yeshua)

[LadyGarnetRose]

That is correct God does not speak beyond the 10 commands. This is accurate to the account in Ex 19. Then he speaks only with Moshe to give them instruction for how to regulate life in Israel. No!, not the Diaspora. There would be no temple or priests in the Diaspora. The instructions are specifically to be done "in the land that I am giving to you." In the lands of Israel. That is where God's theocracy is to be formed as the Kingdom of Israel. The boundries of that are given, and the instruction for those who travel outside of he land for a time for business and such. It requires them to return to Israel to perform the festivals and sacrifices.
Actually, it does mean Wherever you go...Not specifically Israel.

4:14 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances,

The Lord told Moses to teach the Jews the law,

that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

That you might do them in the land where ever you go over to posses it.


So, whereever you might be, you follow the law.

[Charles YTK]

14 “The Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might perform them in the land where you are going over to possess it.
New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Dt 4:14). The Lockman Foundation: LaHabra, CA

What lands were they going over to possess, South America, New zealand, China? If this land that they were to possess was any place in the world, then their first commandment from God is to go into the land and utterly destroy the inhabitants of those lands, men, women, children the old and the young, and the cattle. Spare no one and take no spoils, bury everything and purge the land. Then this should have been done in America when the Jews came here and in Argentina when the Jews migrated there.

Sorry Rose, but the lands of Israel, formerly Canna is a specific piece of land from the Lebanon to the great river of Egypt, from the great sea to the the lands of Arabia at the Euphrates, and the people of specfic trbes are mentioned in the inheritance.

Deut 1:7 Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all the places nighb thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates.  8 Behold, I have setc the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Here is that very promise of the land 

Gen 15: 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (Ge 15:17-16:1). Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA


By the way, Israel won all this land back in the 6 day war in June 1967. But they gave most of it back to prevent futher hostilities.

[Charles YTK]

This conversation faded away. However I think it is something that really should be addressed in the formation of our doctrine. I would like to prevent another assult from people like "ToraTora Grandma." The scriptures describe the ten commands which were spoken by God heard by the people, agreed to by the people and written on stone and placed in the golden box as being the Torah of the covenant, the thing that one must do in order to maintain your part of the agreement with God. The first two commands are certainly the most important and the ones which Israel broke so many times especially before the exile to Babylon.

If we as Messaincs feel that there is any authority left in the Old Covenant then the Torah of that Covenant is only the ten commands and not all the extra ordinances given for the running of the lands of Israel and those alone should be emphasized. It is clear to me that the ten are part of the New Covenant Torah as Yeshua points to them more than once as do the Apostles, and some of the Ordinances are there as well, like Kosher food and sexual purity issues.

So how should we reconcile all this to the New Covenant? The Gentiles mentioned in Romans 2, did not have the law, had no knowledge of the law, yet did the righteous things the law required and this demonstrated that the law was written upon their hearts and God was showing them what he really requires of us. Shouldn't this be our approach? Or is MJAA correct and there are two different doctrines for Messianics, one for Jews and another for Gentiles? (I would not agree with this and feel MJAA is wrong by building a wall of separation which Yeshua already tore down.)

[mpossoff]

If we as Messaincs feel that there is any authority left in the Old Covenant then the Torah of that Covenant is only the ten commands and not all the extra ordinances given for the running of the lands of Israel and those alone should be emphasized.

Charles what about this commandment pertaining to land?

“ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

Marc

[mpossoff]

We are not in the old covenant and God does not deal w