[Open] Question about Elijah being taken up to heaven

[ChavaK]

I saw this discussed on another forum and wanted your
opinion.

II Kings 2:1 "it happened when HaShem took Elijah
up to heaven in a whirlwind..."

II Kings 2:11 "..Elijah ascended to heaven in
the whirlwind..."

The comments made were that Elijah could not
have ascended into heaven because John 3:13
says "no man has ascended into heaven".
They contend that Elijah was just transported
to another spot on earth through the sky
("heaven"). This is not what the Tanak says,
and this forum continualy berates Jews for their
"manmade" interpretations, yet they are
doing the exact same thing. So I was
surprised at their interpretation of things.
Thoughts on their views of these verses?

[HadassahSukkot]

This thread was created from our Questions Thread.

ChavaK, that is an awesome Question :)

[ContentInHim]

I agree it's awesome. And I have no clue. I checked your scripture from John:


JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? [11] I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [12] I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? [13] No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. [14] Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, [15] that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.


Enoch comes to mind also. ?????

Anyone have the Greek for the passage from John?

[HadassahSukkot]

How about checking the Aramaic? Anyone have that? All of my things are at home and inaccessable to me for a little while.. :sigh:

I'll check in once I can look at it deeper.. ;)

[debi b]

What a wierd thing to focus on out of that area of the text :scratch: Never heard anyone try to make that point before.

There is nothing tricky in Aramaic....

[LadyGarnetRose]

Elijah...yes...

The one who is to herald the comming of Messiah...

Hmmm

[HadassahSukkot]

I found two renderings into English which made the most sense to me...

I don't know 100% how accurate they are though.

One reads: "For only I, the Son of Man*, have come to earth and will return to heaven again" (*some manuscripts add "who lives in heaven")

And the other reads: "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man* has come down from heaven."
(*some manuscripts add "who lives in heaven")

In the "Jewish New Testament Commentary" by David H. Stern it says:
It is sometimes asserted that Yeshua never claimed to be more than an ordinary human being. But here he affirms his heavenly origin; and indeed, throughout Yochanan's Gospel he presents himself as divine as well as human, both in function and essence.
We speak... we give evidence. Sir Edwin Hoskyns in his commentary on John, The Fourth Gospel, explains the plural here as Yeshua associating himself with other witnesses: Yochanan the , Immerser (John 1:7, 32-34), Isaiah (John 12:41), Abraham (John 8:56), Moses (John 5:46) and the writers and subjects of the Tanakh (John 5:39)


Maybe this helps?

[ChavaK]

How about checking the Aramaic? Anyone have that? All of my things are at home and inaccessable to me for a little while.. :sigh:

I'll check in once I can look at it deeper.. ;)

If the NT was originaly written in Greek, wouldn't it
make sense to check that as a source rather
than a translation of it made into Aramaic?

[Ahava]

If the NT was originaly written in Greek, wouldn't it
make sense to check that as a source rather
than a translation of it made into Aramaci?
I often question whether the New Testament was originally written in Greek, or was it written in Hebrew, translated into Greek and/or Aramic and only the Greek and/or Aramaic copies.

There has been some light shed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings from that time.

Dead Sea Scrolls indicate original in Hebrew, so do other scrolls. They are written in Hebrew.

[HadassahSukkot]

I often question whether the New Testament was originally written in Greek, or was it written in Hebrew, translated into Greek and/or Aramic and only the Greek and/or Aramaic copies.

There has been some light shed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings from that time.

Dead Sea Scrolls indicate original in Hebrew, so do other scrolls. They are written in Hebrew.
Just what I wanted to say ;)

[ChavaK]

I often question whether the New Testament was originally written in Greek, or was it written in Hebrew, translated into Greek and/or Aramic and only the Greek and/or Aramaic copies.

There has been some light shed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings from that time.

Dead Sea Scrolls indicate original in Hebrew, so do other scrolls. They are written in Hebrew.
Not long ago I did a quick web search and most of what
I saw indicates it was written in Greek..
but then again, what do I know about it? Nada...:)

[ContentInHim]

Dead Sea Scrolls indicate original in Hebrew, so do other scrolls. They are written in Hebrew.


OK, now I'm curious (always a scary thing :D ), but I thought there was NOTHING of the NT in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[ContraMundum]

If the NT was originaly written in Greek, wouldn't it
make sense to check that as a source rather
than a translation of it made into Aramaci?


You are quite correct, the Aramaic is essentially useless for serious study as any attempt to translate it from Greek to Aramaic for English speakers will really only muddy the waters further- and the idea smacks of gimmickery and money-spinning anyway. No one speaks 1st C Aramaic anymore and the Gospel writers felt Greek was going to be sufficient to spread their message- so why second guess them? There is no evidence to suggest that the Gospels were inspired in any language other than Greek. Anything else will only ever be another translation.


The Greek of the passage in question is easily understood within the context of Divine revelation. The phrase oft translated as "hath ascended to Heaven" is to be regarded in relation to what Jesus is teaching and its origin. The parsing of the passage shows that Jesus is referring to Heaven as His proper habitation, and that no man has ascended into Heaven to receive revelation from Heaven, but only He who came down from Heaven to teach us of Heavenly things (verse 12). The passage must be understood within the context of Divine revelation, which is cearly what Jesus is speaking of (you must start at verse 9 to see that this is the topic).

Obviously, Jesus knew that Elijah and Enoch had been bodily assumed into Heaven, but neither of them had ascended for the purpose of bringing Divine teaching back to earth. Only Jesus, whose proper place is in Heaven, has come down from Heaven to teach us Heavenly things. This is why you must read the preceeding verses. Context.

[ContraMundum]

I often question whether the New Testament was originally written in Greek, or was it written in Hebrew, translated into Greek and/or Aramic and only the Greek and/or Aramaic copies.

There has been some light shed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings from that time.

Dead Sea Scrolls indicate original in Hebrew, so do other scrolls. They are written in Hebrew.

Ah...no way.

I have no idea who started the myth of the NT being found in the DSS which has spread throughout the MJ and HR movements but it is complete baloney. In fact, it's absurd. Yeah, I know Dan Brown said the DSS contained early Christian writings in the "Da Vinci Code" but somehow I don't think he's terribly reliable.

There are so many problems with the myth that it's going to take someone with a lot more time than me about 20 posts just to demonstrate it.

Here's some points for starters:

1) The NT was not yet written, by anyone. Most of the DSS were written probably before 50AD and certainly no later than 68AD, and most were almost certaily before before the birth of Christ.

2) There are no NT documents found at Qumran. Not one. Many other documents, almost all the the Tanakh (bar Esther) were found but no Gospels or Epistles.

3) Any alledged reference to the "crucified Messiah" scroll still does not qualify as inspired canonical NT scriptures and cannot prove that the NT was written in Hebrew.

4) Any alledged fragmentary NT references have never been complete direct quotes from the NT or been anything that would lead one to believe that the writers of the DSS were under the direct influence of the NT writers- all they prove is a common source family at best (eg. both DSS writers and NT writers are influenced by some of the same religous authorities and the common source is Judaism).

5) Even if the DSS had an entire and complete Jesus narrative, it wouldn't make it NT scripture or even come close to proving that the NT was written in Hebrew. Hypothetically it would only prove that the Qumran sect wrote about Jesus in Hebrew, or someone else, but it couldn't prove that the Gospel writers did.

There's heaps more but I really don't want to waste time on this, because it won't amount to a hill of beans to those of the more liberal schools of thought.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Contra,

The rumor came from a very small scroll found written in Greek. I'm not sure what it does say, but it isn't NT.

:)

[Bon]

Elijah was still alive, years after his tranportation by the whirlwind, during the reign of King Jehoram!

2 Chronicles 21:12 (ESV)
12 And a letter came to him from ELIJAH the prophet, saying, "Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

I've seen this passage used as proof that Elijah is in fact in heaven and appeared with Yeshua and Moses on the mountain....but it was just a vision.
Matthew 17:1-9 (ESV)
1And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah." 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear." 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the VISION, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

Josephus Antiquities Of The Jews 9:2:2 " Now at this time it was that Elijah disappeared from among men, and no one knows of his death to this very day; but he left behind him his disciple Elisha, as we have formerly declared. And indeed, as to Elijah, and as to Enoch, who was before the Deluge, it is written in the sacred books that they disappeared; but so nobody knew that they died."

Ezekiel also experienced transportation:
Ezekiel 3:12-14 (ESV)
12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great earthquake: "Blessed be the glory of the LORD from its place!" 13 It was the sound of the wings of the living creatures as they touched one another, and the sound of the wheels beside them, and the sound of a great earthquake. 14 The Spirit lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness in the heat of my spirit, the hand of the LORD being strong upon me.

As did Phillip:
Acts 8:39-40 (ESV)
39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

[ContraMundum]

Contra,

The rumor came from a very small scroll found written in Greek. I'm not sure what it does say, but it isn't NT.

:)


I know of that fragment, and no, it wasn't any portion of the NT at all. :)

But, finding a portion of Greek literature in an ancient dig is like finding coins in a bank. They're everywhere. The whole Hellenized world knew and spoke Greek, so one would be expected to find Greek fragments in the Middle East in digs dated to that era.