Homosexuals in a leadership position in the church

[~BelovedDaughter~]

All right, I am posting this thread to see if any of you can help me out.

One of my classes is requiring us to do a debate over varying topics this semester. The topic I have is "Homosexuals in a leadership position in the church."

I'm on the "con" side, that is, I am on the side that is against it. The debate is set to take place on Wednesday, March 28. There are 6 people doing this debate, 3 per side. I need to find "scholarly/academic sources" that support my view without being stereotypical and judgmental.

If any of you know some good sources or something, I'd highly appreciate it. I will be doing my own researching also, but if you can help, that'd be great!:thumbsup: I'd also appreciate prayers!

[~Beauty_from_Pain~]

Good luck. Sounds very interesting. Don't know about finding scholarly topics on this though. It seems to be more based on one's opinion than anything else. Can you use the Bible? That is where it comes from....

[Green Orchid]

I don't know of any books about homosexuals in leadership precisely, but if you want a good book on witnessing to homosexuals, I highly suggest "God's Grace and the Homosexual Next Door" by Alan Chambers.

[~BelovedDaughter~]

Well, I'm sure we can use the Bible a little bit. And my topic isn't witnessing to them, it's supposed to be whether they should be in leadership positions. It doesn't help that my teacher is a liberal and told us that our opinions aren't worth anything unless we can back them up firmly.

[Green Orchid]

Well, I'm sure we can use the Bible a little bit. And my topic isn't witnessing to them, it's supposed to be whether they should be in leadership positions. It doesn't help that my teacher is a liberal and told us that our opinions aren't worth anything unless we can back them up firmly.
I know your topic isn't about witnessing to them, I just mentionned it if you wanted to know for your personal information. ;)

[~BelovedDaughter~]

I know your topic isn't about witnessing to them, I just mentionned it if you wanted to know for your personal information. ;)

Thanks! I really hope you didn't think I was getting upset, because that wasn't what I meant at all. I would like a way to witness to them better. I'm just really worried about this debate because it's due March 28, which normally wouldn't be a big deal, but the 17th through the 25th is my Spring Break and I won't have access to a computer that whole time. I'll just pray I can find the info I need in time! :prayer:

[Judy02]

It doesn't help that my teacher is a liberal and told us that our opinions aren't worth anything unless we can back them up firmly.

I find that is virtually always the case in formal academic study, when looking at these sort of issues. Best of luck with that one, it's quite controversial. I'll pray and let you know if I come up with any ideas.:thumbsup: xx

I did Religious Studies as a minor, therefore I only studied it in my first year. I did a presentation once where we had to compare concepts in different religions. Ours was the concept of 'suffering' and how it was perceived in Christianity and Buddhism. It was quite interesting actually. Christianity is the only mainstream religion that ever really views it in a positive light.

Anyway best of luck, please keep us updated too and let us know how it went :)

[Judy02]

[quote=Grace2Cor12_9;32708035] I need to find "scholarly/academic sources" that support my view without being stereotypical and judgmental.
[quote]

What do you mean exactly by this?

Maybe you could do some research on Church history? If it was common in the past, and then speculate and look into the reasons why it wasn't allowed in the past.

An argument stating it could be hypocrisy, to have someone preaching from the pulpit about christian values/principles etc, if his lifestyle is also persistent in something prohibited in scripture?

Also, which church is this viewpoint based on? Any particular denomination, or just the christian faith in general?

[progressivegal]

Well, I'm sure we can use the Bible a little bit. And my topic isn't witnessing to them, it's supposed to be whether they should be in leadership positions. It doesn't help that my teacher is a liberal and told us that our opinions aren't worth anything unless we can back them up firmly.
"liberal" or not, that's what any good teacher would say.

[~BelovedDaughter~]

What do you mean exactly by this?

Maybe you could do some research on Church history? If it was common in the past, and then speculate and look into the reasons why it wasn't allowed in the past.

An argument stating it could be hypocrisy, to have someone preaching from the pulpit about christian values/principles etc, if his lifestyle is also persistent in something prohibited in scripture?

Also, which church is this viewpoint based on? Any particular denomination, or just the christian faith in general?

I'm not real sure what my professor meant by "being stereotypical." I'm guessing she means we're not supposed to make assumptions about the people just because they chose to partake in certain behavior.

And I like what you said about hypocricy. That is true that if someone was to be teaching about christian values and principles and then be engaging in them in their lives, would be a bit hypocritical.

And I don't think it matters what church. The topic just said "the church." So I took it to mean the Christian church in general.

[~BelovedDaughter~]

"liberal" or not, that's what any good teacher would say.

I know. But she made it very clear to us on our first day where she stood on certain matters and it made me feel like I'm in the wrong for being conservative.

I understand that my opinion needs to be backed up, but trying to find something to back it up that ISN'T the Bible, that's going to be hard for me, I think.

[Prissanna]

Closing for staff review.

[Erinwilcox]

All right, I am posting this thread to see if any of you can help me out.

One of my classes is requiring us to do a debate over varying topics this semester. The topic I have is "Homosexuals in a leadership position in the church."

I'm on the "con" side, that is, I am on the side that is against it. The debate is set to take place on Wednesday, March 28. There are 6 people doing this debate, 3 per side. I need to find "scholarly/academic sources" that support my view without being stereotypical and judgmental.

If any of you know some good sources or something, I'd highly appreciate it. I will be doing my own researching also, but if you can help, that'd be great!:thumbsup: I'd also appreciate prayers!


I have the OP quoted here as reminder of the purpose of this thread. This thread is not for debate, it is to gather research. Please do not debate in this thread. If you know of some research that would help this member in her debate, please post it. Otherwise, if you would like to debate the topic, please begin a new thread.

[Taylor43]

Pkease read the Bible and pray. Leadership should be acountable. I love everyone but i do not like life style. Just pray to God and seek his answers. Please do

[Judy02]

*confused* I didn't even see a debate about homosexuality being started lol! :P

Was very confused as to why it got closed earlier to be honest...and why it's in the baptist forum, lol!


How is the research going?

[RED that's ME]

Most Baptists considers homosexuality a sin so if a person is active, it means they are living in open sin. Therefore they shouldn't be put into a leadership role.

[Erinwilcox]

*confused* I didn't even see a debate about homosexuality being started lol! :P

Was very confused as to why it got closed earlier to be honest...and why it's in the baptist forum, lol!


How is the research going?

I forget what forum it was in before, but homosexuality, according to CF rules, is only allowed to be discussed in certain forums--the forum that it was in wasn't one of them. The Baptist forum is.:)

[Seeker of the Truth]

Most Baptists considers homosexuality a sin so if a person is active, it means they are living in open sin. Therefore they shouldn't be put into a leadership role.
Most Baptists? I would hope most Christians would believe that!

To the OP: you may have to go about this in a philosophical manner. Is it right for church that preaches against sin to have a Pastor that is openly living in sin?

[Judy02]

I forget what forum it was in before, but homosexuality, according to CF rules, is only allowed to be discussed in certain forums--the forum that it was in wasn't one of them. The Baptist forum is.:)

Ah ok, fair play ;)

[BigNorsk]

Well, you are in a tough position, since there is nothing in the bible that says a homosexual is not to be in leadership.

Most people say homosexual and automatically take it to mean that the person is having sex. Which is not the case, any more so than a single heterosexual person would not be eligible for leadership.

Probably your strongest case can come from the Catholic church which let homosexuals be priests until recently. Then due to the sex scandals they will no longer allow a homosexual to become a priest.

You would have to take the position that allowing homosexual to be leaders would mean that the church would be scandalized.

It's difficult because heterosexuals are in plenty of scandals as well.

Your best move is probably to widen it. To say that others should also be disqualified based on the desires in their mind.

But like I say, your position is very difficult. Biblically, the best you have is the passages calling homosexual sex an abomination. (Though that isn't actually what you are debating) Maybe you could make a case for the husband of one wife and turn that into it is showing that the leader should have desire for a woman, it doesn't say husband of one woman or man.

That's about the best you have that I can think of.

Marv

[KarrieTex]

Well, I'm sure we can use the Bible a little bit. And my topic isn't witnessing to them, it's supposed to be whether they should be in leadership positions. It doesn't help that my teacher is a liberal and told us that our opinions aren't worth anything unless we can back them up firmly.
The only book to back this up is the Bible.

Look at it from this point of view. The Bible is the policy book for the Church.

The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin and immoral. The Bible also states that the leaders of the church are to walk a Godly path. Thus due to the fact that homosexuality is immoral and sinful, a leader can not be involved in that lifestyle and be a leader in the Church.

You can always point to the Bible as the Church's standrad and policy book instead of using it as a witness.

[RED that's ME]

Most Baptists? I would hope most Christians would believe that!

To the OP: you may have to go about this in a philosophical manner. Is it right for church that preaches against sin to have a Pastor that is openly living in sin?

I agree with you but sadly there are christians who don't believe that Scripture is against homosexuality. If you poke your head in some of the other forums around CF, you will see how christians holding a scriptural view against homosexuality, gets attack for their beliefs. I know the other side says, the same too.

[Judy02]

To the OP:

Not sure if you are coming back to this thread as it was moved, and likely to have different members posting different ideas, but I'll suggest some ideas as well.

Often in formal academics, they like it when you can logically, and rationally back something up,and are allowed to use the bible as a reference to your reasoning rather than enforcing a religious dogmatism of 'it's in the bible, that automatically makes it wrong, full stop, no questions asked.' In other words, to have a good, deep understanding of why some of God's instructions/rules are there, and the meaning/implications behind them, and why something is seen to be wrong in the eyes of God. Admittedly, this takes a fair amount of time, work, and effort if we've never thought about and pondered on an issue that deeply before (and I am not great at this either - I've never really debated it).

I probably won't be a massive help, but I've come up with some statements you might typically hear for homosexual practice, and some thoughts on why they are not fulproof, completely valid (or at least some possible thoughts).

1.) There are so few texts in the Bible about homosexuality - just 2 verses in Leviticus - and therefore is not important.

2.) Why is there no mention in the gospels, particularly by Jesus? Greek and Roman society accepted homosexual practice very widely.

3.) The texts about homosexuality are in the OT and no longer relevant.


1.) My thoughts are, frequency of texts is never a valid argument about the importance of a particular truth. E.g. we only have Luke's account of the angel Gabriel's conversation with Mary. We do not dismiss it on that basis.

2.)Jesus and the gospel writers make no mention of homosexuality because there is a total acceptance of the prohibition of homosexual activity in the Jewish world of Jesus. That view has not changed for Judaism for over 3,000 years or in Christianity for 2,000 years. It was likely not mentionned in these books, written at this time, in this place, because it wasn't something that was a huge problem at the time.

3.) The two texts I often hear referred to on this subject are Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13.

To me it seems to give total clarity. It refers clearly to the activity, not the person's inclination.

Some objectors will say it is part of the holiness code, now superceded by the NT, and our not being under law.

But reading Paul's letter to the Galations correctly (and Romans) makes it clear that present day followers of Jesus are saved and forgiven not by earning this through keeping the law, but by thegrace of God. However Paul clearly expects all followers of Jesus to live righteously and avoid sin. The freedom from the law is about being free from the burden of law keeping as a means of salvation. A true believer will keep the law (instruction) of God because he says the Spirit will be at work in him or her. You only have to read through the ethical sections of Romans or Titus for example to realise Paul never seperates salvation from sin and living a holy life in accordance with God's ethical Torah (law/instruction).

Some laws however are clearly redundant. All the ritual laws about animal sacrifice for example are superceded. It no longer happens because the Lamb of God has died 'once for all.' Daniel also predicted the ending of sacrifice (Dan 9).

The command about homosexuality is also a moral code, involving human relationships with human consequences.

The argument from design: People know from the created order what is right or wrong about this issue.

How has God designed us? Put simply, and slightly crudely, is that men are not physically designed to have sex with men or women with women :P Something suggestive in our biological makeup.

Argument of desire: Some people will say that because homosecuals say they feel attracted and tempted, why should they not fulfill this desire? God made them that way. But God made heterosexuals desire the opposite sex, this does not mean every heterosexual is able to fulfull their natural instincts and desires. Heterosexuals have to exercise disipline too. Not all of them marry, or have a fulfilled sex life. More people today are not married than are married. The idea that somehow homosexuals are unfulfilled sexually is actually an irrelevancy. All of us, even the married, have to control our sex drive and handle temptation. It has always been the case.

Some ideas for you, sorry if it was a little long. These were some extracts taken out of a booklet, my old pastor made up regarding the issue. These are not my thoughts, although I agree with them. I wish I was this wise, and intelligent!;)

Hope its going well, still praying for you! xx

[PrincetonGuy]

New Testament passages that expressly teach that the practice of homosexuality is a sin:

Romans 1:26. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27. and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31. without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32. and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Cor. 6:9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (NASB, 1995)


In order to defend this translation of the Bible and your interpretation of it you will want to quote the standard Greek-English lexicon:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=39331&netp_id=150720&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=39331&netp_id=150720&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

You will also want to quote from the most scholarly and academic commentaries on Romans and on 1 Corinthians:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=21499&netp_id=143656&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=21499&netp_id=143656&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=2371X&netp_id=120557&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=2371X&netp_id=120557&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=60844&netp_id=436689&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=60844&netp_id=436689&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=02371&netp_id=139999&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=02371&netp_id=139999&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=05042&netp_id=137434&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=05042&netp_id=137434&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=3636&netp_id=156677&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=3636&netp_id=156677&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=3033&netp_id=126835&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=3033&netp_id=126835&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=2288&netp_id=157281&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=2288&netp_id=157281&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=26301&netp_id=310094&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=26301&netp_id=310094&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=60056&netp_id=165642&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=60056&netp_id=165642&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=24502&netp_id=215242&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/449696412?item_no=24502&netp_id=215242&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW)


Most of these volumes can be found in large university and seminary libraries or through their library loan programs.

[~BelovedDaughter~]

Thank you to everyone who is praying and has provided some resources! Yeah, I posted this in the wrong forum at the beginning and it was graciously moved for me. I'll definitely read over this stuff in greater depth and hopefully get to use it on Wednesday!

[~BelovedDaughter~]

Alright everyone, the debate is tomorrow and my group seems to be well prepared. Thanks for the prayers, thoughts, and assistance you've provided!

[Judy02]

Good luck! :thumbsup:

[JPPT1974]

Praying for you and good luck!:groupray:

[~BelovedDaughter~]

Everyone, the debate went okay, I guess. A lot of my classmates started getting upset at the con side and started questioning our morals because we were against the topic. It got really heated and later on in the day, I had a couple people come up to me and say "I feel like *Jane* was talking down to us and that's why I hate Christians. They think they are always right and I'm always wrong. I'll never be a Christian if that's how they are." It honestly broke my heart to hear her say that and I said "I don't think she meant to sound like she was talking down to you and I hope you don't feel that way towards Christians in the future."

*Not her real name*

[Hunterkirk]

I am new here and all and I am certain someone has already said what I am going to say but I feel I must say it anyways.

All people are sinners, homosexuality is rejected as sinful in the Bible. SO the question becomes can sinners be in leadership positions in the Church? Well yes they can since we are all sinners. But can one be a leader in the Church and say a sin isn't a sin? Could a leader in a church tell those in it that being a adulter isnt a sin and be proud of his adultery? The answer is clearly no.

So for me a repentant homosexual who recognizes his sin can be in a leadership role. A homosexual that see nothing sinful in being a homosexual can not be.

The only way around this it devalue the Bible so the parts you dont like are ignored, which is a dangerous ground the play in.:pray:

[~BelovedDaughter~]

Thanks for your input Hunterkirk! I originally started this thread to see if someone could help with sources and even though my classroom debate is over, I still don't want this to become a debate online. Thanks again everyone for your help!