Question about OT law.

[RichardT]

Numbers 15:15

One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:2

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Alright, I think Deuteronomy 4:2 is talking about the 10 commandments. But atheists use these verses to imply that christians are to keep OT law, what do you guys think?

Which also begs a question about sabbath keeping.

[eldermike]

Deuteronomy 4

1-2 Now listen, Israel, listen carefully to the rules and regulations that I am teaching you to follow so that you may live and enter and take possession of the land that God, the God-of-Your-Fathers, is giving to you. Don't add a word to what I command you, and don't remove a word from it. Keep the commands of God, your God, that I am commanding you. (The message)





A few things:
Your question is the basis of the Galatians.
Paul used Galations to explain His objections to the teachers of the law.
If a man today could ask Paul your question He might say:
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

[RichardT]

I know that we aren't justified by the law, OT saints weren't either, God found faith in Noah, it was Abraham's faith that saved him.

The question isn't whether we need to keep the law for salvation, but whether OT law should still be used today (stone child if he speaks against parent, etc...)

[Abbadon]

There's no point in stoning a kid for thinking quickly on his feet, but back then, living was pretty much life or death, and there wasn't much of a public education system, so you paid darn good attention to your parents.

Alright, I think Deuteronomy 4:2 is talking about the 10 commandments. But atheists use these verses to imply that christians are to keep OT law, what do you guys think?

Probably is the 10 commandments, but my ancestors are Scots-Irish with some Finnish a long long way back, I'm %100 gentile. Most of the old covenent doesn't apply to me (the Noahide stuff applies to everyone, sure), but the new covenent does.

And even then, because it's the new covenent we're saved by (not the old one), I tend to view the old covenent as guidelines for specifically religious-Jewish communities (for example, Messianic Jews), based on what actually works. If an ethnic Jew becomes a Methodist or a Quaker, I'm not going to hold them to any particular standards regarding pork (but I won't stop them from turning pork down, either).

Which also begs a question about sabbath keeping.

The Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath. The point of the Sabbath is to stop once a week, take a break, and say "thank you God for getting me through the week."

[mlqurgw]

Numbers 15:15

One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:2

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Alright, I think Deuteronomy 4:2 is talking about the 10 commandments. But atheists use these verses to imply that christians are to keep OT law, what do you guys think?

Which also begs a question about sabbath keeping.Deut. 4:2 is talking about the whole of the Law. You will find nowhere in the Scriptures where the Law is divided into civil, ceremonial, dietary and moral, it is all called the Law and means all of it.
As to Christians keeping the Law, even the Jews didn't and no one ever has except Christ. The purpose of the Law is to show us our need of Him. Gal. 3:19-25 The Law demands perfect obedience and perfect righteousness. Sin is missing the mark set by the Law, iniquity is breaking the Law. We all have done both. Psa. 24:3-5
Certainly the Law is useful to instruct us what true righteousness is but we can never meet its unbending, strict demands in ourselves. That is why Christ is made of God unto us righteousness. 1Cor. 1:30 He is called Jehovah-tsidkenu the Lord our Righteousness. Jer. 23:6

No one actually kept or keeps a Sabbath either. Christ is our Sabbath.


BTW, don't try to argue with atheists. You will not do them or yourself any good by it. They need something that only God can give. 1Cor. 2:1-5

[ConservativeChristian97]

I just recently read about this during my quiet time. :) Yes, I believe we are to live by the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 5:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.[/URL] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/18.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/19.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.




(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/18.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/19.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19"] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)

[mlqurgw]

I just recently read about this during my quiet time. :) Yes, I believe we are to live by the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 5:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.








May I ask how that works? How are we supposed to live by the OT?

[JimfromOhio]

Mosiac Law is Ceremonial Law that explains the Ten Commandments If you look in the Old Testament, there are 3 aspects of the Old Testament Laws: Moral Laws (10 Commandments), Ceremonial Laws (Moses Laws), Civil Laws (Government laws).

If you remember in Paul's letter to the Galatians uses the expression "under the law" several times (3:23; 4:4-5, 21; 5:18). Paul (an educated Pharisee) wrote this letter to confront the influence of the Judaizers (mixing Ceremonial and Moral laws). They were Jewish legalists who were trying to impose the ceremonies and rituals of the Mosaic law on all Christians. Paul is saying that we are no longer under the the bondage of a ceremonial system (Mosiac Laws). "Law" has many shades of meaning in the New Testament when referring to the Law of Moses which are listed in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, four of the five books of Moses known as the Penteteuch. Those under the Law of Moses were "under bondage," which ended with Jesus, who has set us free.

This applies Sabbath keeping. I follow the 7th day cycle sabbath rather than the calendar day sabbath.

[mlqurgw]

Mosiac Law is Ceremonial Law that explains the Ten Commandments If you look in the Old Testament, there are 3 aspects of the Old Testament Laws: Moral Laws (10 Commandments), Ceremonial Laws (Moses Laws), Civil Laws (Government laws).

If you remember in Paul's letter to the Galatians uses the expression "under the law" several times (3:23; 4:4-5, 21; 5:18). Paul (an educated Pharisee) wrote this letter to confront the influence of the Judaizers (mixing Ceremonial and Moral laws). They were Jewish legalists who were trying to impose the ceremonies and rituals of the Mosaic law on all Christians. Paul is saying that we are no longer under the the bondage of a ceremonial system (Mosiac Laws). "Law" has many shades of meaning in the New Testament when referring to the Law of Moses which are listed in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, four of the five books of Moses known as the Penteteuch. Those under the Law of Moses were "under bondage," which ended with Jesus, who has set us free.

This applies Sabbath keeping. I follow the 7th day cycle sabbath rather than the calendar day sabbath. While I do understand the manner and usefulness of separating the Law into categories, civil, ceremonial and moral, it is theologians who do it not the Scriptures. When Paul speaks of the Law he is talking about all of it. Even Paul, who kept the Law outwardly as a Pharisee, found out he didn't keep it at all. Rom. 7: 7-10. The only way in which we can ever say that we keep the Law is in Christ. Anything less than perfect obedience to it is not keeping the Law. Christ is our all in all. 1Cor. 1:30, 1John 4:17

[TwistTim]

ok, this is gonna be viewed as an oversimplification or an undersimplification one.... but here goes

Paul in Romans:

Law = master that leads to death
Jesus = Master that leads to life
Law = teacher that shows us we are not worthy of God's Love
Jesus = Teacher that loves us even though we are not worthy
Law = How we know we are filthy rotten sinners
Jesus = how we obtain forgiveness for those Sins
Law = good for knowing how to live
Jesus = our example with His Life
Law = Can not by any mere human be followed 100% (Look at Moses, he was given the law, was a prophet, and smote the rock twice instead of obeying God and striking it once...that sin cost him his life)
Jesus = The Giver of Forgiveness, the Pardoner of Sins
Law = leaves us away from God, and striving with sin
Jesus = leads us to Himself, and out of sin
Law = on it's own, we can't use it to fight sin
Jesus = with Him and knowledge of the scriptures, we can


there we have it, a brief summary of my understanding of Romans and the discourse of Paul on the Law and Jesus

[JimfromOhio]

While I do understand the manner and usefulness of separating the Law into categories, civil, ceremonial and moral, it is theologians who do it not the Scriptures. When Paul speaks of the Law he is talking about all of it. Even Paul, who kept the Law outwardly as a Pharisee, found out he didn't keep it at all. Rom. 7: 7-10. The only way in which we can ever say that we keep the Law is in Christ. Anything less than perfect obedience to it is not keeping the Law. Christ is our all in all. 1Cor. 1:30, 1John 4:17

Can you explain which laws that theologians say we can choose?

Release from the Obligation of the Ceremonial Law in Galatians 5:1 says, "Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty with which Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Christian liberty is being free from having to fulfill the legal code to please God, and free from the frustration of not being able to keep an external set of rules.

We also have to be careful of getting too "liberal". Christian must maintain his balance on the bridge between the burdensome legalism and the fleshy libertinism.

[PETE_]

I just recently read about this during my quiet time. :) Yes, I believe we are to live by the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 5:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.










Jesus came to fulfil the law

The law shall not pass til all is fulfilled

John 19:30
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished."

[mlqurgw]

Can you explain which laws that theologians say we can choose? I am not sure what you mean by this question. Many theologians tell us that as believers we are not under the civil and ceremonial law but are still under the moral law. They tell us that we are to live a righteous life by keeping the 10 commandments. What they have done is destroyed the righteousness of the law by lowering its strict standards to a place where we can keep it. There are no degrees to righteousness. The moral law is by far the most difficult to keep. We must never fool ourselves into a false security by law.

Release from the Obligation of the Ceremonial Law in Galatians 5:1 says, "Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty with which Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Christian liberty is being free from having to fulfill the legal code to please God, and free from the frustration of not being able to keep an external set of rules. The context of Gal. 5:1 is what Paul told us in chapter 4 concerning the bondage of the law given on Sinai, which was all of the law, and the promise. Paul doesn't separate the Law into ceremonial here. He is speaking of the whole of the Law. Liberty is being free from the Law in every respect. Many use the Law as a rule of life and requirement for sanctification. That is to put the believer under bondage again. Gal. 3:3

We also have to be careful of getting too "liberal". Christian must maintain his balance on the bridge between the burdensome legalism and the fleshy libertinism.
No true believer will go to the extreme of fleshly libertinism. They are motivated by love not by law. If you love Him you will seek to please Him. Not by living according to a set of rules but according to His revealed will.

[Abbadon]

It is the intentions of the law, not the letter, that matters. That's where the Sadducees and Pharisees went wrong.

If we cannot apply the law to our lives without ruining it's intention, we probably don't need to. The Sabbath, for example. Take a break every once and a while to realize how much God has helped you. The Pharisees and Sadducees removed the intention but kept the letter and said "you cannot do this, this, or this, or this much of that on only Saturday."

In the 19th century, people kept the letter of the law "don't get drunk," but forgot the intention and the end result was prohibition (which resulted in far more crime than if they just let people drink in peace while encouraging alcoholics to get help).

[JimfromOhio]

I am not sure what you mean by this question. Many theologians tell us that as believers we are not under the civil and ceremonial law but are still under the moral law. They tell us that we are to live a righteous life by keeping the 10 commandments. What they have done is destroyed the righteousness of the law by lowering its strict standards to a place where we can keep it. There are no degrees to righteousness. The moral law is by far the most difficult to keep. We must never fool ourselves into a false security by law.

The context of Gal. 5:1 is what Paul told us in chapter 4 concerning the bondage of the law given on Sinai, which was all of the law, and the promise. Paul doesn't separate the Law into ceremonial here. He is speaking of the whole of the Law. Liberty is being free from the Law in every respect. Many use the Law as a rule of life and requirement for sanctification. That is to put the believer under bondage again. Gal. 3:3


No true believer will go to the extreme of fleshly libertinism. They are motivated by love not by law. If you love Him you will seek to please Him. Not by living according to a set of rules but according to His revealed will.

We are still under the Civil and Moral Law which includes 10 Commandments.

The ceremonial law is changed. If you remember, the ceremonial law lead to 613 rules and regulations set by legalists. Ceremonial law is still around according to some believers (you can see them around the forum).

I am sure all of us can live according to a set of rules that revealed by His Will

[mlqurgw]

We are still under the Civil and Moral Law which includes 10 Commandments. I am afraid you will have to show me this in the Scriptures. As I said, the Scriptures nowhere separate the law into categories. If we are still under those categories of the law how do you keep them?

The ceremonial law is changed. If you remember, the ceremonial law lead to 613 rules and regulations set by legalists. Ceremonial law is still around according to some believers (you can see them around the forum). No part of the law is changed, it is fulfilled. Christ is the end of the law, as in its object, fulfillment, purpose and termination. When a man is freed from bondage he doesn't carry around a remnant of it to continue to burden him.

I am sure all of us can live according to a set of rules that revealed by His Will
No, believers don't live by a set of rules we live by faith and by love. As I told Arunma in another thread, law and rules are the same thing. They both carry a negative consequence and convey compulsion. Do this or suffer the consequences. Obedience is a matter of fear and will lead to resentment. Love is another thing altogether. Love motivates where law never can.

[Libre]

This has been very useful. I do battle with lawkeepers in another forum, and I'm using some of this!!! heh heh !

Libre

[JimfromOhio]

Teaching the those what God means to obey from the "heart" rather than law (flesh). Its a toughie. We can't control them. We can't be like a Pharisee to make sure they don't break the "rules". We can't force against their will to believe what we believe. Theonomy means literally, "God's law". This idea states that only Old Testament laws specifically fulfilled in the New Testament are non-binding (such as sacrificial laws, ceremonial laws and dietary laws). The moral and civil Law of God is still the ethical standard for governing individuals and society.

That the ceremonial law introduced by Moses was typical of Christ and His work is taught throughout the New Testament, and especially in the Epistle to the Hebrews. It is declared to be a ‘shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.’ The tabernacle and its services were ‘patterns of things in the heavens,’ and figures, anti-types, of the true tabernacle, into which Christ has now entered for us. Col. ii. 17; Heb. ix. 23, 24. Christ is said to have effected our salvation by offering Himself as a sacrifice and by acting as our high priest. Eph. v. 2; Heb. ix. 11, 12, 26, 28; xiii. 11, 12. That the coming of Christ has superseded and forever done away with the ceremonial law is also evident from the very fact just stated that ceremonies were types of Him, that they were the shadows of which He was the substance. Their whole purpose and design were evidently discharged as soon as His real work of satisfaction was accomplished; and therefore it is not only a truth taught in Scripture (Heb. x. 1-14; Col. ii. 14-17; Eph. ii. 15, 16), but an undeniable historical fact, that the priestly work of Christ immediately and definitely superseded the work of the Levitical priest. The instant of Christ’s death, the veil separating the throne of God from the approach of men ‘was rent in twain from the top to the bottom’ (Matt. xxvii. 50, 51), thus throwing the way open to all, and dispensing with priests and their ceremonies forever.
A. A. Hodge, The Confession of Faith: A Handbook of Christian Doctrine

To understand the Law... let's go back to Psalm 119, there are eight words that are focused.

The first word, law, is the primary word used in this psalm to refer to God’s Word. In its broadest sense, “law” refers to any instruction revealed by God as the basis for life and action. In its more narrow sense “law” can refer to the Mosaic Law, the Pentateuch, or the Deuteronomic Law. Psalm 119 presents the Law of God as His overall instruction and direction whereby His people may find life, blessing, and success.

The second word testimonies, has the idea of “witness.” Law of God is His testimony because it is His own witness to His nature, attributes, actions, and consequent demands. . . .This term emphasizes both the authority of their source in the LORD, and the accountability of their reception by men.” God’s Word holds men accountable to the God of the Word and witnesses against them when they fail to meet the standards contained therein (Deut. 31:26).

The third word is precepts. This term comes from the image of an officer or overseer giving specific instructions to be carried out by others. God’s Word articulates the specific instructions and expectations He has for His people, and for which they will be accountable.

The fourth word is statutes, speaks to the permanence and the binding nature of God’s Word. God’s statutes have been written down and preserved because God’s desires His people to obey them always and without exception. God’s words are always valid. To be sure, God’s people must give careful attention to how certain parts of God’s Word are to be applied in their cultural context but at the end of the day, God has spoken once and we must give glad and consistent obedience to what God has said.

The fifth word is commandments is related in thought to the statutes of the Lord. However, this term focuses attention on the lawful authority behind the words. God’s statutes are binding because they are His commandments and as such, are backed by His authority as the supreme, sovereign, and moral Law-giver.

The sixth word is ordinances. An ordinance refers to a decision or legal judgment handed down by a judge in a court of law or by a ruler settling a dispute among his subjects. The psalmist uses this term to describe the judgments and decisions from God about matters related to the affairs of His people. In general terms an ordinance refers to God’s revealed will or decision about a matter related to common human situations. In particular, God’s ordinances in the Old Testament were His commands that formed the basis of Israel’s legal system. (Government affairs)

The final two terms are word and promises. At the heart of this psalm is the truth that God’s Word is necessary for living a life that pleases God. But, the psalmist acknowledges that apart from God’s enablement, he is powerless to understand or obey what God has said. Whoever the psalmist was, he understood the ultimate end of God’s Word was to shape his life and that the means for doing so was obeying what God had revealed with a full hearted obedience rising from proper attitudes and motives toward God and His Word. And, this obedience was to manifest itself in all of life’s ways and for all of the psalmist’s days. It is evident from the internal evidence of this psalm that its writer was acquainted with the struggle of living for God in a world that had abandoned Him.

[Harry3142]

What was the agreement between God and the Hebrew nation? Did he offer them eternal life if they kept the Laws of Torah? No, he did not:

"If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you." (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There is the contract which God made with Moses' people, the Hebrew nation. It was a very pragmatic, here-and-now agreement, with all their rewards being given in this life, rather than in an afterlife.

And what was their attitude toward the existence of an afterlife? They were skeptical:

I also thought, "as for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: as one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all came from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21,NIV)

By the time of Christ's sojourn among us, there had developed a belief that if one was 'good enough' he could merit a place in heaven. Jesus Christ himself corrected those who thought that if they obeyed the law, they were 'making points' with God:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel According to St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

But we as mortal beings are incapable of doing everything which God commands of us, if we use the Torah as our 'yardstick'. And to break one law is to break all 613 laws and commandments. So if we cannot even keep the Mosaic Law perfectly, how do we hope to obtain the righteousness which God requires of all who hope to enter his presence?

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

As Christians we do not trust our own ability to hold on to God. But we trust with absolute certainty God's ability to hold on to us.

[MrJim]

I just recently read about this during my quiet time. :) Yes, I believe we are to live by the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 5:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.[/URL] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/18.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/19.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.




(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/18.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=KJV#18)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/5/19.html)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19"] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=19&version=KJV#19)


:scratch: well, take pictures at the next lamb sacrifice, I've only seen drawings, that is as long as it isn't "that time of the month" 'cause don't ya have to hide since you'll be unclean? And which tribe are you with and where's the closest Levitical priest?

;) Just bustin' at ya--whenever I hear about OT laws I think of some of these things and am glad we live under grace instead of law.

And I agree 100% with mlqurgw that there is no "separation" with ceremonial/civil law.. I've heard it but have not been shown clearly from scripture that there is any sort of separation--law is law.

[mlqurgw]

Teaching the those what God means to obey from the "heart" rather than law (flesh). Its a toughie. We can't control them. We can't be like a Pharisee to make sure they don't break the "rules". We can't force against their will to believe what we believe. Theonomy means literally, "God's law". This idea states that only Old Testament laws specifically fulfilled in the New Testament are non-binding (such as sacrificial laws, ceremonial laws and dietary laws). The moral and civil Law of God is still the ethical standard for governing individuals and society.
Which is why I am not a theonomist. All of the law was fulfilled by Christ not just part of it. While I do agree that the principles taught in the Law are good for society in general you cannot change a man from a sinner to a saint by Law. Which is really what theonomy boils down to. The only way to make a man moral is for him to be given a new nature.



The quote by Hodge is good as far as it goes to teach how Christ fulfilled that part of the Law but I would have to look up the entire teaching of Hodge on the Law to comment on it. I will say from memory that I believe Hodge did teach the Law as a rule of life but can't remember for sure. I will have to check. If he did then I disagree with him.

To understand the Law... let's go back to Psalm 119, there are eight words that are focused.

The first word, law, is the primary word used in this psalm to refer to God’s Word. In its broadest sense, “law” refers to any instruction revealed by God as the basis for life and action. In its more narrow sense “law” can refer to the Mosaic Law, the Pentateuch, or the Deuteronomic Law. Psalm 119 presents the Law of God as His overall instruction and direction whereby His people may find life, blessing, and success.

The second word testimonies, has the idea of “witness.” Law of God is His testimony because it is His own witness to His nature, attributes, actions, and consequent demands. . . .This term emphasizes both the authority of their source in the LORD, and the accountability of their reception by men.” God’s Word holds men accountable to the God of the Word and witnesses against them when they fail to meet the standards contained therein (Deut. 31:26).

The third word is precepts. This term comes from the image of an officer or overseer giving specific instructions to be carried out by others. God’s Word articulates the specific instructions and expectations He has for His people, and for which they will be accountable.

The fourth word is statutes, speaks to the permanence and the binding nature of God’s Word. God’s statutes have been written down and preserved because God’s desires His people to obey them always and without exception. God’s words are always valid. To be sure, God’s people must give careful attention to how certain parts of God’s Word are to be applied in their cultural context but at the end of the day, God has spoken once and we must give glad and consistent obedience to what God has said.

The fifth word is commandments is related in thought to the statutes of the Lord. However, this term focuses attention on the lawful authority behind the words. God’s statutes are binding because they are His commandments and as such, are backed by His authority as the supreme, sovereign, and moral Law-giver.

The sixth word is ordinances. An ordinance refers to a decision or legal judgment handed down by a judge in a court of law or by a ruler settling a dispute among his subjects. The psalmist uses this term to describe the judgments and decisions from God about matters related to the affairs of His people. In general terms an ordinance refers to God’s revealed will or decision about a matter related to common human situations. In particular, God’s ordinances in the Old Testament were His commands that formed the basis of Israel’s legal system. (Government affairs)

The final two terms are word and promises. At the heart of this psalm is the truth that God’s Word is necessary for living a life that pleases God. But, the psalmist acknowledges that apart from God’s enablement, he is powerless to understand or obey what God has said. Whoever the psalmist was, he understood the ultimate end of God’s Word was to shape his life and that the means for doing so was obeying what God had revealed with a full hearted obedience rising from proper attitudes and motives toward God and His Word. And, this obedience was to manifest itself in all of life’s ways and for all of the psalmist’s days. It is evident from the internal evidence of this psalm that its writer was acquainted with the struggle of living for God in a world that had abandoned Him. I have no problem with seeking to understand the different ways the word Law is used in the Scriptures. As you have pointed out it sometimes means the Word of God in it entirety and other times it means the Pentateuch and at other times it means just the specific commandments. None of those things do harm to the stance I take on the Law though.
The entire revelation of God in His Word is our rule of life not commandments.
The problem isn't with the Law but with us. I hold an extremely high view of the Law. It is far too high for us to reach and demands much more than we can give. The standard of the Law is perfection nothing less. To tell believers that they should or could keep the Law in any way is to give them something they cannot attain and brings the Law down to us. It actually destroys the Law, both in its purpose and its usefulness.

[Phileoeklogos]

I just recently read about this during my quiet time. :) Yes, I believe we are to live by the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 5:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luk 24:46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
Luk 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 You are witnesses of these things.




Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

:amen: