God's will

[Seeker of the Truth]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ

[Abbadon]

What God would like to see happen and God's will don't necessarily have to be the same thing.

That being said, the idea of God's will always occuring can coexist with free will as much as predestination.

[JimfromOhio]

Yes

[arunma]

In theology, it's often said that God has a perfect will, and a permissive will (which isn't all too different than most humans). God's perfect will isn't always done, but his permissive will is.

Of course, as a Reformed Christian, I'm tempted to say that God's perfect will is done. I'm not sure what gives me that inclination, though...

[christian73]

I think God's will always gets done, though we as humans sometimes can slow things down. For Scripture, I think Jonah is a good example of this.

The story of Moses and the Isrealites is another example.

[DeaconDean]

Absolutely YES!

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:..For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" -Isa. 14:24,27

God Bless

Till all are one.

[mlqurgw]

Though it is not my habit to post something another wrote I believe Mr. Pink said it much better thn I could.

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
Appendix 1
THE WILL OF GOD
In treating of the Will of God some theologians have differentiated between His decretive will and His permissive will, insisting that there are certain things which God has positively fore-ordained, but other things which He merely suffers to exist or happen. But such a distinction is really no distinction at all, inasmuch as God only permits that which is according to His will. No such distinction would have been invented had these theologians discerned that God could have decreed the existence and activities of sin without Himself being the Author of sin. Personally, we much prefer to adopt the distinction made by the older Calvinists between God’s secret and revealed will, or, to state it in another way, His disposing and His preceptive will.
God’s revealed will is made known in His Word, but His secret will is His own hidden counsels. God’s revealed will is the definer of our duty and the standard of our responsibility. The primary and basic reason why I should follow a certain course or do a certain thing is because it is God’s will that I should, His will being clearly defined for me in His Word. That I should not follow a certain course, that I must refrain from doing certain things, is because they are contrary to God’s revealed will. But suppose I disobey God’s Word, then do I not cross His will? And if so, how can it still be true that God’s will is always done and His counsel accomplished at all times? Such questions should make evident the necessity for the distinction here advocated. God’s revealed will is frequently crost, but His secret will is never thwarted. That it is legitimate for us to make such a distinction concerning God’s will is clear from Scripture. Take these two passages: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification" (1 Thess. 4:3); "For who hath resisted His will?" (Rom. 9:19). Would any thoughtful reader declare that God’s "will" has precisely the same meaning in both of these passages? We surely hope not. The first passage refers to God’s revealed will, the latter to His secret will. The first passage concerns our duty, the latter declares that God’s secret purpose is immutable and must come to pass notwithstanding the creature’s insubordination. God’s revealed will is never done perfectly or fully by any of us, but His secret will never fails of accomplishment even in the minutest particular. His secret will mainly concerns future events; His revealed will, our present duty: the one has to do with His irresistible purpose, the other with His manifested pleasure: the one is wrought upon us and accomplished through us, the other is to be done by us.
The secret will of God is His eternal, unchanging purpose concerning all things which He bath made, to be brought about by certain means to their appointed ends: of this God expressly declares "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:10). This is the absolute, efficacious will of God, always effected, always fulfilled. The revealed will of God contains not His purpose and decree but our duty,—not what He will do according to His eternal counsel, but what we should do if we would please Him, and this is expressed in the precepts and promises of His Word. Whatever God has determined within Himself, whether to do Himself, or to do by others, or to suffer to be done, whilst it is in His own breast, and is not made known by any event in providence, or by precept, or by prophecy, is His secret will. Such are the deep things of God, the thoughts of His heart, the counsels of His mind, which are impenetrable to all creatures. But when these are made known they become His revealed will: such is almost the whole of the book of Revelation, wherein God has made known to us "things which must shortly come to pass (Rev. 1:1—"must" because He has eternally purposed that they should).
It has been objected by Arminian theologians that the division of God’s will into secret and revealed is untenable, because it makes God to have two different wills, the one opposed to the other. But this is a mistake, due to their failure to see that the secret and revealed will of God respect entirely different objects. If God should require and forbid the same thing, or if He should decree the same thing should and should not exist, then would His secret and revealed will be contradictory and purposeless. If those who object to the secret and revealed will of God being inconsistent would only make the same distinction in this case that they do in many other cases, the seeming inconsistency would at once disappear. How often do men draw a sharp distinction between what is desirable in its own nature. and what is not desirable all things considered. For example, the fond parent does not desire simply considered to punish his offending child, but, all things considered, he knows it is his bounden duty, and so corrects his child. And though he tells his child he does not desire to punish him, but that he is satisfied it is for the best all things considered to do so, then an intelligent child would see no inconsistency in what his father says and does. Just so the All-wise Creator may consistently decree to bring to pass things which He hates, forbids and condemns. God chooses that some things shall exist which He thoroughly hates (in their intrinsic nature), and He also chooses that some things shall not yet exist which He perfectly loves (in their intrinsic nature). For example: He commanded that Pharaoh should let His people go, because that was right in the nature of things, yet, He had secretly declared that Pharaoh should not let His people go, not because it was right in Pharaoh to refuse, but because it was best all things considered that he should not let them go—i.e. best because it subserved God’s larger purpose.
Again; God commands us to be perfectly holy in this life (Matt. 5:48), because this is right in the nature of things, but He has decreed that no man shall be perfectly holy in this life, because this is best all things considered that none shall be perfectly holy (experimentally) before they leave this world. Holiness is one thing, the taking place of holiness is another; so, sin is one thing, the taking place of sin is another. When God requires holiness His preceptive or revealed will respects the nature or moral excellence of holiness; but when He decrees that holiness shall not take place (fully and perfectly) His secret or decretive will respects only the event of it not taking place. So, again, when He forbids sin, His preceptive or revealed will respects only the nature or moral evil of sin; but when He decrees that sin shall take place, His secret will respects only its actual occurrence to serve His good purpose. Thus the secret and revealed will of God respect entirely different objects.
God’s will of decree is not His will in the same sense as His will of command is. Therefore, there is no difficulty in supposing that one may be contrary to the other. His will, in both senses, is His inclination. Everything that concerns His revealed will is perfectly agreeable to His nature, as when He commands love, obedience, and service from His creatures. But that which concerns His secret will has in view His ultimate end, that to which all things are now working. Thus, He decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, though His own holy nature hates all sin with infinite abhorrence, yet, because it is one of the means by which His appointed end is to be reached He suffered it to enter. God’s revealed will is the measure of our responsibility and the determiner of our duty. With God’s secret will we have nothing to do: that is His concern. But, God knowing that we should fail to perfectly do His revealed will ordered His eternal counsels accordingly, and these eternal counsels, which make up His secret will, though unknown to us are, though unconsciously, fulfilled in and through us.
Whether the reader is prepared to accept the above distinction in the will of God or not he must acknowledge that the commands of Scripture declare God’s revealed will, and he must also allow that sometimes God wills not to hinder a breach of those commands, because He does not as a fact so hinder it. God wills to permit sin as is evident, for He does permit it. Surely none will say that God Himself does what He does not will to do.
Finally, let it be said again that, my responsibility with regard to the will of God is measured by what He has made known in His Word. There I learn that it is my duty to use the means of His providing, and to humbly pray that He may be pleased to bless them to me. To refuse so to do on the ground that I am ignorant of what may or may not be His secret counsels concerning me, is not only absurd, but the height of presumption. We repeat: the secret will of God is none of our business; it is His revealed will which measures our accountability. That there is no conflict whatever between the secret and the revealed will of God is made clear from the fact that, the former is accomplished by my use of the means laid down in the latter.

[DeaconDean]

Though it is not my habit to post something another wrote I believe Mr. Pink said it much better thn I could.


You must spread some reputation around before giving it to mlqurgw again.

I love Arthur W. Pink, great man of his time.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[BereanTodd]

Before I answer, I would ask "which will"?

[eldermike]

The answer is yes. We may not understand it.
Habakkuk 1 is worth adding to your reading list on God's will.

[Seeker of the Truth]

The answer is yes. We may not understand it.
Habakkuk 1 is worth adding to your reading list on God's will.

Thank you. I plan on doing that.

Before I answer, I would ask "which will"?

err, why don't you explain how many there are and such before I answer...


Of course, as a Reformed Christian, I'm tempted to say that God's perfect will is done. I'm not sure what gives me that inclination, though...

Arunma, if you don't mind me asking, what are you reformed from?

[Seeker of the Truth]

ughhh... double post

[BereanTodd]

err, why don't you explain how many there are and such before I answer...

Well there is a moral will that God has for us, and no that is obviously not always followed or fulfilled. There is also His permissive will, of what He allows for us to do. Then there is His declarative will, in what He has predestined and pre-ordained. The latter of these is what you are probably referring to in the OP, and in that sense, yes, it is always fulfilled as He would have it done.

Arunma, if you don't mind me asking, what are you reformed from?

Reformed theology is a theological system, think Zwingli-Calvin-Presbyterian (i.e. Covenental theology). Many baptists are reformed, although today the majority are probably at least closer to dispensational, if not outright dispensational.

[Hisbygrace]

Yes

[Phileoeklogos]

Yes, even though many do not believe it to be so because they don't see things working out as they think God has willed, a few verses to take into consideration,




Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.



Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.


Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.


Even the wilfull acts of sinful men accomplish His plan, purpose and will. How strange would it be for the Creator of all, to be frustrated by His creatures.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Well there is a moral will that God has for us, and no that is obviously not always followed or fulfilled. There is also His permissive will, of what He allows for us to do. Then there is His declarative will, in what He has predestined and pre-ordained. The latter of these is what you are probably referring to in the OP, and in that sense, yes, it is always fulfilled as He would have it done.



Reformed theology is a theological system, think Zwingli-Calvin-Presbyterian (i.e. Covenental theology). Many baptists are reformed, although today the majority are probably at least closer to dispensational, if not outright dispensational.
Thank you.

I always thought there were more than one type of "wills" of God, but i never knew there was a name for them ^_^
Thank you also Phileoeklogos for the verses you provided.

The reason why I asked this is because I don't believe that God's will is always done, generally. I guess you call that His "permissive" will. And, I also believe that things do not happen for a reason. Otherwise, God's will is always done thus, all of my beliefs are shredded.

If things happen for a reason, that reason has to be from God's will being done, no?

I guess it's a morbid way of looking at it ;)

[If Not For Grace]

God has a "will" for us. It is up to us if we will follow it, then it is up to God to do with us according to our choice. God is a God of Second Chances, Instruction and mercy. Jesus paid the price for the trip but we must claim the ticket.

[Seeker of the Truth]

God has a "will" for us. It is up to us if we will follow it, then it is up to God to do with us according to our choice. God is a God of Second Chances, Instruction and mercy. Jesus paid the price for the trip but we must claim the ticket.
That's a nice little saying. :)

[Blessedfaith]

How do we know what God's will is? especially in todays world with so many distractions and temptations? If we do the right thing then it's God's will?

How do you know?

[Pepperoni]

God has a "will" for us. It is up to us if we will follow it, then it is up to God to do with us according to our choice. God is a God of Second Chances, Instruction and mercy. Jesus paid the price for the trip but we must claim the ticket.
I like that too (bold). I might borrow it sometime. :)

I believe the rest of your post to be true too--while I believe that God's will does always happen, I believe it's entirely possible for a Christian to be living outside of God's will.

[Seeker of the Truth]

How do we know what God's will is? especially in todays world with so many distractions and temptations? If we do the right thing then it's God's will?

How do you know?
Well, that will explain why I hear so many people praying that God's will would be done.

It's that we have the choice to let God's will occur, not that He isn't supreme or whatever, but He gives us the choice.

That is, at least, my interpretation of it.

[JimfromOhio]

God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”.

God's will is revealed in the New Testament:
Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Suffering ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)

[Seeker of the Truth]

God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”.

God's will is revealed in the New Testament:
Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Suffering ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)
Thank you Jim, that helps greatly. :)

[JimfromOhio]

Thank you Jim, that helps greatly. :)

You are welcome :wave:

What I did was study each of those words individually by looking at other verses that supports those verses. I also read commentaries and books about God's will.

It took me a long time to understand better. We will not know all of God's will but we can know what His will is biblically. :thumbsup:

[PrincetonGuy]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?


No, of course not. Disobedience on the part of men and the will of God are mutually exclusive.

1. Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
2. that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (NASB, 1995)

[Seeker of the Truth]

Thanks PrincetonGuy.

[eldermike]

No, of course not. Disobedience on the part of men and the will of God are mutually exclusive.

1. Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
2. that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (NASB, 1995)
Jesus said: "One of you will betray me"

He then said to Peter...................you will deny me three times.


Both acts of disobediance, correct?

[FallingWaters]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ
That's a tough one.

If I say yes, then someone will say,
then why do evil things happen?
God is supposed to be good.

And if I say no,
someone will say,
then how can He really be God
if He is not Omnipotent?

[JimfromOhio]

Jesus said: "One of you will betray me"

He then said to Peter...................you will deny me three times.


Both acts of disobediance, correct?

I think we all are like Peter.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Jesus said: "One of you will betray me"

He then said to Peter...................you will deny me three times.


Both acts of disobediance, correct?
Yes.

[Seeker of the Truth]

That's a tough one.

If I say yes, then someone will say,
then why do evil things happen?
God is supposed to be good.

And if I say no,
someone will say,
then how can He really be God
if He is not Omnipotent?
That's why I'm interested in the different types of God's wills listed above or on the previous page.

[GordonSlocum]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ
Yes - Of course I answer from my grid not yours.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Yes - Of course I answer from my grid not yours.
What is that suppose to mean?

[PrincetonGuy]

That's why I'm interested in the different types of God's wills listed above or on the previous page.

1 Thes. 4:1. Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2. For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4. that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5. not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6. and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
8. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. (NASB, 1995)

Notice especially verse 3,

3. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Although Paul is addressing here the Christians in one specific church at a specific time, I do not believe that it would be stretching the point too very far to say that it is the will of God for all Christians to be sanctified, and specifically that they abstain from sexual immorality. Most unfortunately, however, this is not what we find in the church today.

There is only ONE type of God’s will—that which He desires—and that which He desires is VERY OFTEN very different from the reality that is.

[GordonSlocum]

What is that suppose to mean?
All of life's understanding. As you study, learn, experience and live - your grid is formed. The basic grid is in tack already from your family.

When you are my age or somewhere in between you will look back and see the changes, improvements, refinements, etc. in your life. Hopefully, all to the good.

Gordon

[Salamon]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ

Most certainly Yes!

[Seeker of the Truth]

All of life's understanding. As you study, learn, experience and live - your grid is formed. The basic grid is in tack already from your family.

When you are my age or somewhere in between you will look back and see the changes, improvements, refinements, etc. in your life. Hopefully, all to the good.

Gordon
Ahh, ok.

I actually looked back not too long ago and realized how my "grid" has changed so much from my parents, especially my Dad.

[If Not For Grace]

How do we know what God's will is?


First you must take time to get to know God. Commune with Him. Study. Talk to Him, ask questions, God will not be stumped by your questions.

Even in your own world do you not know those best whom you spend time with. Learn the principle of first fruit and your day will improve. Give God the First of your day. Try it, you day will be brighter--when you get a little you will want more. And there is Sooo much more for you than just existing and struggling daily--God will let even a big cup run over with blessing. Get your cup.

[JM]

Yes.

[onlinemissionary]

Always God is Almighty and all things happen through Him things may be hard to except sometimes but God knows what He's doing!

[Seeker of the Truth]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.

[eldermike]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.
Job 42:2


2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted. NIV

[mlqurgw]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.I did in my other post. Did you not read it?
Tell me Joseph meant when he made himself known to his brothers who sold him into slavery in Gen. 45:4-8.

[PrincetonGuy]

I did in my other post. Did you not read it?
Tell me Joseph meant when he made himself known to his brothers who sold him into slavery in Gen. 45:4-8.

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

[JM]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

I still answer YES.

Death of Firstborn (11:1 - 12:36) מַכַּת בְּכוֹרוֹת

The tenth and final plague of Egypt was the death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death) of all Egyptian first born males - no one escaped, from the lowest servant to Pharaoh's own first-born son, including first-born of livestock. This was the hardest and cruelest blow upon Egypt and the plague that finally convinced Pharaoh to submit, and let the Israelites go.


God told Moses that this plague would cause Pharaoh to send the Israelites away, and ordered him to prepare the people to leave. He also commanded Moses to teach the ritual of Pesah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover) - the sacrifice of a lamb for God, and the eating of Matzot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matzo) ("Poor-man's Bread" לחם עוני). God told Moses to order the Israelites to mark their doorpost with the lamb's blood, in order that the plague of death would pass over them.


In the middle of the night, God himself came upon Egypt and directed the Angel of Death to take the life of all the Egyptian first-born sons, including Pharaoh's own son. That night, there was a great cry in Egypt, such as had never been heard before, or ever will be heard again. However, no Israelite first-born was killed, as God "passed over" the Israelite houses.


After this, Pharaoh, furious and saddened, ordered the Israelites to go away, taking whatever they wanted. The Israelites didn't hesitate; and at the end of that night Moses led them out of Egypt, with "arms upraised".

[mlqurgw]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust. And of course you did as usual and avioded my point altogether.


Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Gen 45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Joseph seems to disagree with you.

[mlqurgw]

I still answer YES.Just as a side note to the blood on the door posts: I find it very interesting that God said when I see the blood I will pass over you instead of when you see the blood I will pass over you. :wave:
Many folks seem to think it is the other way around.

[mlqurgw]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust. You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men. I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.

[DeaconDean]

You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men. I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.

:amen: to that!

God Bless

Till all are one.

[PrincetonGuy]

And of course you did as usual and avioded my point altogether.


Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Gen 45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Joseph seems to disagree with you.

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

I find it rather sad that some men take the narrative in the Old Testament that more than any other narrative in the Old Testament gives us a picture of true nobility in unconditional love and forgiveness and twist and distort that picture to make it appear to support a doctrine that makes God indistinguishable from the devil in his diabolical hatred of an innocent 17 year old boy, and the mastermind behind one of the most evil crimes in the history of mankind.

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. If these and all the other atrocities committed by evil men were part of a plan concocted with God at the helm, God is an imposter—He is in reality Satan’s twin brother.

One moment Randy was looking forward to going home from Iraq and being back home in his church, but the very next moment he was feeling his right arm and both of his legs being torn off of his body, and then he realized that he had lost both of his eyes and almost all of his hearing. His face felt warm and wet and he wiped it with his left hand and learned that his skin had been blown right off of his face, even his nose and his lips were gone. After three and a half months of many surgeries and indescribable agony, Randy died.

Was it the will of God for Randy to suffer like that? Absolutely not! Was it the will of God for the 15 year old boy that made the IED (improvised explosive device) that tore apart Randy’s body to make that devise? Absolutely not! Is it the will of God that one man should sin against another? Absolutely not!

God, being God, brings good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan, and God is at war with Satan and the casualties on both sides are enormous. Those of us who are on God’s side are fighting the battle with God through praying and fasting, loving and forgiving, believing and obeying, witnessing and worshipping.

Eph. 6:10. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15. and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16. in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
19. and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
20. for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (NASB, 1995)

[PrincetonGuy]

You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men.
God does react to what men do. Every one in the Bible who was punished for an evil deed and everyone who was rewarded for a good deed proves that God does react to what men do. When men sin, the will of God is thwarted and He responds to His will being thwarted. It does not, however, logically follow that God is controlled by men. There is a substantial difference between being influenced in ones response and being controlled.



I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.
I see a gracious and wise God bringing good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan.

Had Adam simply yielded to the will of God in the garden, Joseph and Moses would not have become types of Christ because Christ would not have had to die on the cross to redeem a fallen race. Instead of a grotesque horror story of unimaginable suffering and slaughter, we would have story of love, peace, and total harmony.

Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God!

[eldermike]

Just as a side note to the blood on the door posts: I find it very interesting that God said when I see the blood I will pass over you instead of when you see the blood I will pass over you. :wave:
Many folks seem to think it is the other way around.
Nail, hit smack on the head!

[Seeker of the Truth]

I'm going to make a stretch here by saying that if God's will always happens, then we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell, without a choice.

If God's will always happens, all men and women are going to "be saved." However, that is obviously not happening/going to happen. So, God must have already said, "He can stay, he must go."

And, if that is true then God is the author of sin.

And, if God is the author of Sin, we, as sinners, are being punished because God chose for us to sin because His will must alway happen.

Isn't that a little hypocritical for God to punish us for His deeds so that some might be saved and others shall be eternally tormented?

[Phileoeklogos]

I'm going to make a stretch here by saying that if God's will always happens, then we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell, without a choice.

If God's will always happens, all men and women are going to "be saved." However, that is obviously not happening/going to happen. So, God must have already said, "He can stay, he must go."

And, if that is true then God is the author of sin.

And, if God is the author of Sin, we, as sinners, are being punished because God chose for us to sin because His will must alway happen.

Isn't that a little hypocritical for God to punish us for His deeds so that some might be saved and others shall be eternally tormented?





I think what is happening here is that young christian is starting to ponder the BIG questions and is finding that the answers aren't quite so simple, which is a good thing because it should lead us into worship and study, so open up that Bible and search out the matter.

[Seeker of the Truth]

I think what is happening here is that young christian is starting to ponder the BIG questions and is finding that the answers aren't quite so simple, which is a good thing because it should lead us into worship and study, so open up that Bible and search out the matter.
Oh, I have brother.

However, Scripture keeps telling me something completely different from what some of the Baptist here are saying, that's why I'm asking.

[IronWill]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ
Yes.

[mlqurgw]

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

I find it rather sad that some men take the narrative in the Old Testament that more than any other narrative in the Old Testament gives us a picture of true nobility in unconditional love and forgiveness and twist and distort that picture to make it appear to support a doctrine that makes God indistinguishable from the devil in his diabolical hatred of an innocent 17 year old boy, and the mastermind behind one of the most evil crimes in the history of mankind.

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. If these and all the other atrocities committed by evil men were part of a plan concocted with God at the helm, God is an imposter—He is in reality Satan’s twin brother.

One moment Randy was looking forward to going home from Iraq and being back home in his church, but the very next moment he was feeling his right arm and both of his legs being torn off of his body, and then he realized that he had lost both of his eyes and almost all of his hearing. His face felt warm and wet and he wiped it with his left hand and learned that his skin had been blown right off of his face, even his nose and his lips were gone. After three and a half months of many surgeries and indescribable agony, Randy died.

Was it the will of God for Randy to suffer like that? Absolutely not! Was it the will of God for the 15 year old boy that made the IED (improvised explosive device) that tore apart Randy’s body to make that devise? Absolutely not! Is it the will of God that one man should sin against another? Absolutely not!

God, being God, brings good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan, and God is at war with Satan and the casualties on both sides are enormous. Those of us who are on God’s side are fighting the battle with God through praying and fasting, loving and forgiving, believing and obeying, witnessing and worshipping.

Eph. 6:10. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15. and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16. in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
19. and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
20. for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (NASB, 1995) So then Genesis is just a history book? I see. We may get some information from it but it really isn't part of the inspired revelation. Or at least that part isn't.

You also seem to believe that God doesn't control Satan. I guess Job is just another history book.
Nebuchadnezzer sure found out who God is, Dan. 4:34,35. But I guess that is just another example of a narrative huh? I suppose God was just speaking rhetorically in Isa. 40:13-26; 43:4 and far too many other passages to list here.
Making emotional arguments against truth may convince those who, like yourself, have no understanding. Paint my God as ugly as you like, it changes nothing. God is still God and all your efforts to make Him not much different than a man is foolishness.
God makes no apologies for being God and neither will I.

God's terms of peace with the rebellious sinner who is at war with Him is not will you pretty please let me have my way so I can do for you what I want. It is surrender or die.

[mlqurgw]

God does react to what men do. Every one in the Bible who was punished for an evil deed and everyone who was rewarded for a good deed proves that God does react to what men do. When men sin, the will of God is thwarted and He responds to His will being thwarted. It does not, however, logically follow that God is controlled by men. There is a substantial difference between being influenced in ones response and being controlled.If what you posit here is true then God is constantly having to change. He is running around putting out fires, " Oops, man did something I didn't want. Gotta go fix this." That is the description of a man not of God. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him. Whatever controls Him is God. All men naturally desire a god they can control and have made one for themselves from the forest of their depraved imaginations. But he isn't God. The god you describe wouldn't hurt a fly and couldn't save a knat.




I see a gracious and wise God bringing good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan.The old " the devil made me do it" argument. Evil exists because men are evil. It flows from the heart of men, Jer.17:9; Matt. 15:19,20. Don't try to put the blame on Satan or God.
Atrocities happen because men are evil and God has wisely determined that they will serve His purpose. Could He not keep them from happening if it wasn't according to His purpose? Prov. 16:1,4,9,33; Psa. 76:10


Had Adam simply yielded to the will of God in the garden, Joseph and Moses would not have become types of Christ because Christ would not have had to die on the cross to redeem a fallen race. Instead of a grotesque horror story of unimaginable suffering and slaughter, we would have story of love, peace, and total harmony. Then we would be like the angels, having no understanding of the mercy of God. The second Person of the Trinity would have not been who He is and the gracious and merciful God would be unknown.

Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God! Unless, of course, God intends it for a good purpose.

I will no longer answer any of your nonsense concerning my God. It is evident that you don't know Him and don't want to.

[mlqurgw]

For those who read my responses here: Because of the necessity, given the negative accusations against God, of having to respond in a negative manner it would be easy to think I am focused on the negative. That just isn't the case at all. I would much rather talk about the goodness and mercy of God. I love nothing more than telling people about Christ and His work. God is a God of love. He is gracious and merciful beyond our highest imaginations. The whole of Scripture is a revelation of God's redemptive purpose in Christ. I delight to show people Christ in the Scriptures. Please take my responses as they are intended. They are only answers of a polemical nature to a polemical argument.

[PrincetonGuy]

So then Genesis is just a history book? I see. We may get some information from it but it really isn't part of the inspired revelation. Or at least that part isn't.


I most certainly do believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and that includes the book of Genesis, but that does not mean that Satan was inspired by God when he said to the woman, "You surely will not die! (Gen. 3:2), nor does it mean that Joseph was inspired by God when he said to his brothers,

"Please come closer to me." And they came closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 45:4-8, NASB, 1995)

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

[JM]

How do you determine what is historical narrative and what isn’t?

Peace,

j


I most certainly do believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and that includes the book of Genesis, but that does not mean that Satan was inspired by God when he said to the woman, "You surely will not die! (Gen. 3:2), nor does it mean that Joseph was inspired by God when he said to his brothers,

"Please come closer to me." And they came closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 45:4-8, NASB, 1995)

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

[PrincetonGuy]

Atrocities happen because men are evil and God has wisely determined that they will serve His purpose. Could He not keep them from happening if it wasn't according to His purpose?

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Were all of these plans and acts according to the purpose of God? No, absolutely not!

[PrincetonGuy]

All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.


I do not believe that God inspired Adam to eat the forbidden fruit so that He could send His only begotten and sinless Son into the world to suffer the incomparable agony of the cross to undo some of the damage caused by Adam eating the forbidden fruit. I believe that God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing the damage the eating of it would cause, but that Adam disobeyed God, resisting His will, and ultimately brought about all of the sin and misery of the world.

Gen. 2:15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Matt. 27:27. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him.
28. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30. They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
31. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
32. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross.
The Crucifixion
33. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull,
34. they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
35. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there.
37. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
38. At that time two robbers *were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left.
39. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41. In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
42. "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
44. The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
45. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
47. And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (NASB, 1995)

[mlqurgw]

How do you determine what is historical narrative and what isn’t?

Peace,

j It is determined by what fits his paradigm. You know, this doesn't really mean what it says so let me explain it away for you. Rather inconsistent for a strict literalist.

[PrincetonGuy]

I wrote,

"Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God!"

Mlqurgw replied,

"Unless, of course, God intends it for a good purpose."

So sin is a good thing and the will of God if God intends it for a good purpose? Such reasoning as this demonstrates the utter absurdity of the notion that God’s will always happens. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

[eldermike]

I wonder what a god that can't get his way might say when in the throws of failure. It could be something like: "curses, foiled again"

[Seeker of the Truth]

Haha...this is great!

I love to hear people telling people that they're worshiping another "god" when both persons are getting their information straight from the Bible!

It's all in interpretation, brothers.

[Salamon]

So sin is a good thing and the will of God if God intends it for a good purpose? Such reasoning as this demonstrates the utter absurdity of the notion that God’s will always happens. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

If Gods will does not always happen then is God all powerful?? Can something happen without His wanting it to?? Can God be defeated by circumstance?? If so then I must let you know that the god you believe in is not the God of the Bible!!
Here lets look at scripture!
Job 42:2-"I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
Daniel 4:35-"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth: and none can stay His hand, or say to unto Him, What doest thou?"
Romans 11:36-"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen"
Ephesians 1:4, 11-12-"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." 11-"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ."
Revelation 4:11-"You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created"
Well here are some scripture that I think show clearly that Gods will does always happen. If you believe that the Bible is inerrant then you should see that this is true! Please feel free to find an instance where Gods will does not happen, in scripture! If you think you have please share it so we can talk about it! God bless, Chris
PS- I know you have already posted some but I dont see any of those to be outside the will of God so please bring up anything you have already posted if you would like to talk about it.

[mlqurgw]

Haha...this is great!

I love to hear people telling people that they're worshiping another "god" when both persons are getting their information straight from the Bible!

It's all in interpretation, brothers.No, it is in the plain, clear and indisputable statements of the Scripture. The only way a person can get from the Scriptures that God's will can be thwarted or Him be fettered is to explain away what it clearly says. The only ones who do that are the ones who refuse to bow to Him as He is. They must have a god that is like them or they will not worship Him. Either God is God setting on the Throne ruling or He isn't God. All the efforts in the world to tear Him down from His Throne are futile and will be judged for what they are.
There may be disagreements on many things that are matters of interpretation but who God is isn't one of them. You simply can't worship a false god and be a child of God.

[PrincetonGuy]

If Gods will does not always happen then is God all powerful??
No, of course not! He gave to man the freedom to obey Him or disobey Him.

Can something happen without His wanting it to??
Yes, of course! Men can and do sin. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.
If so then I must let you know that the god you believe in is not the God of the Bible!!
The God that I believe in is the God of the Bible, but He is not the god of your mistaken understanding of the Bible.

I do not believe that God inspired Adam to eat the forbidden fruit so that He could send His only begotten and sinless Son into the world to suffer the incomparable agony of the cross to undo some of the damage caused by Adam eating the forbidden fruit. I believe that God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing the damage the eating of it would cause, but that Adam disobeyed God, resisting His will, and ultimately brought about all of the sin and misery of the world.

Gen. 2:15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Matt. 27:27. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him.
28. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30. They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
31. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
32. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross.
33. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull,
34. they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
35. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there.
37. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
38. At that time two robbers *were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left.
39. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41. In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
42. "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
44. The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
45. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
47. And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (NASB, 1995)

[Phileoeklogos]

Luk 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?


Did God not consider all things before He created? Could He have created so that all history would be different than we know it? Does He lack the power to create exactly what He desires? Did some outside force restrain Him from creating in the way that He so pleased?


Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

[PrincetonGuy]

Luk 14:28For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?


Did God not consider all things before He created? Could He have created so that all history would be different than we know it? Does He lack the power to create exactly what He desires? Did some outside force restrain Him from creating in the way that He so pleased?


Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.


In chapters 41-42 of Job, God is speaking; in chapter 42, vv. 1-6, Job is speaking. In Job 42:10 the author of the Book of Job writes,

The LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the LORD increased all that Job had twofold. (NASB, 1995)

Notice the word “when” (Hebrew = בּ). When Job prayed for his friends, the LORD restored the fortunes of Job. Was the restoration of Job conditional upon his first praying for his friends? This verse suggests that it was.

Job was certainly not a Christian and apparently not a Jew because he was a sheikh who lived to the east of the land of Israel. In other words, Job was a heathen and thus his theology was probably somewhere off center of reality. Indeed, his theology in Job 45:2 directly contradicts Christian theology as given to us by Mark in his gospel,

6:1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
6. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. (NASB, 1995)

Mark here writes that Jesus could not perform many miracles in His hometown because the people there did not believe in him and were offended by him. Therefore, we have two choices:

1. Jesus is not God

or

2. God’s ability to perform miracles is at least sometimes conditional upon the belief of men.

I vote for choice #2.

[Iosias]

Yes...see Psalm 115:3 :)

[Seeker of the Truth]

Yes...see Psalm 115:3 :)

:) This verse doesn't aid the debate for either side. :)

:)

[Iosias]

Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

This part of the sentence doesn't mean anything significant to this debate.

Maybe you should read the whole chapter? :)

:)

[PETE_]

Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

This part of the sentence doesn't mean anything significant to this debate.

Maybe you should read the whole chapter? :)

:)
a couple more

135:6

The Lord does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.
[/URL]

Job 23
13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.
(http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftn1)[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftnref1"] (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftnref1)

[Iosias]

Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

That God is all powerful his will is not thwarted by anything or any one.

[holyrokker]

2 Peter 3:9

Is it God's will for everyone to experience salvation?

Will this happen?

Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 33:11

What is God's will here?

[mlqurgw]

2 Peter 3:9

Is it God's will for everyone to experience salvation? This is one of the most misused and ripped out of its context passages quoted against the truth of God's free grace. The "any" is referring to the "us Peter is writing to and in its context doesn't apply to all men without exception.

Will this happen?

Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 33:11

What is God's will here? These 2 passages in their context show the insanity of unbelief. God does not get some sadistic pleasure from the death of the wicked. The word pleasure can be translated satisfaction. Neither, when understood properly in their context, teach anything that dispute the truth that God's will is always done.

This is called prooftexting and it is not an accepted method of hermeneutics. It is making the Bible say what you want it to say without regard to either context or the teaching of the whole of Scripture.
There is a saying, " Any text taken out of its context becomes a pretext."

[holyrokker]

Peter is writing to believers. Why would the "all" who should come to repentance be refering to believers? Who needs to come to repentance is not those who do not believe?

And, no - I am not trying to use those verses from Ezekiel as "prooftexts".

The context of Ezekiel 18 is the way God deals with individuals. He is saying that He does not condemn a man for his father's sins, nor honor a man for his father's righteousness.

In verses 30 and 31 He is admonishing individuals to turn from their sin. It is CLEARLY His will that individuals repent and turn to Him.

[Phileoeklogos]

In chapters 41-42 of Job, God is speaking; in chapter 42, vv. 1-6, Job is speaking. In Job 42:10 the author of the Book of Job writes,

The LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the LORD increased all that Job had twofold. (NASB, 1995)

Notice the word “when” (Hebrew = בּ). When Job prayed for his friends, the LORD restored the fortunes of Job. Was the restoration of Job conditional upon his first praying for his friends? This verse suggests that it was.

Job was certainly not a Christian and apparently not a Jew because he was a sheikh who lived to the east of the land of Israel. In other words, Job was a heathen and thus his theology was probably somewhere off center of reality. Indeed, his theology in Job 45:2 directly contradicts Christian theology as given to us by Mark in his gospel,

6:1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
6. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. (NASB, 1995)

Mark here writes that Jesus could not perform many miracles in His hometown because the people there did not believe in him and were offended by him. Therefore, we have two choices:

1. Jesus is not God

or

2. God’s ability to perform miracles is at least sometimes conditional upon the belief of men.

I vote for choice #2.




Actually we have a third possibility, any limitations on displays of God's grace are self imposed. Lazarus was having a " low faith " day right before he walked out of the tomb, if you notice in verse 5, Jesus healed a few sick people, somehow I just have to think He could have done more if He had so pleased.


As far as Job's restoration being conditioned upon his prayer, I don't see that in the text at all, Job's restoration was only more of the grace he had received before his testing, what was conditioned upon Job's prayer was Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar not being dealt with according to their folly.

And if Job contradicts christian theology in Job 42:2, we need a different theology.

[JPPT1974]

We are only made right with God
And forgiven of our sins
Only when we accept Christ as Savior & Lord
In hopes of turning away from our sins
To do them no more.

[Salamon]

No, of course not! He gave to man the freedom to obey Him or disobey Him.


Yes, of course! Men can and do sin. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

The God that I believe in is the God of the Bible, but He is not the god of your mistaken understanding of the Bible.

I do not believe that God inspired Adam to eat the forbidden fruit so that He could send His only begotten and sinless Son into the world to suffer the incomparable agony of the cross to undo some of the damage caused by Adam eating the forbidden fruit. I believe that God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing the damage the eating of it would cause, but that Adam disobeyed God, resisting His will, and ultimately brought about all of the sin and misery of the world.

Gen. 2:15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Matt. 27:27. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him.
28. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30. They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
31. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
32. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross.
33. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull,
34. they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
35. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there.
37. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
38. At that time two robbers *were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left.
39. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41. In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
42. "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
44. The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
45. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
47. And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (NASB, 1995)

Let me ask you something please! If sin is outside of Gods control who has control of sin?? And if sin can defeat Gods will then can God be defeated?? Also I know you think Gods will does not always happen so I have this question do you think God is omniscient? All knowing?

PS- I do not want to turn this into an argument so not to point any fingers at anyone because it hasn't happened yet. But let us remember to Glorify God in how we respond to each other!
Also I think that this is an important view point that should be cleared up and I ask that both sides mine included not only argue their point but also look into the others! Even if we know or think we are right!

[PrincetonGuy]

This is one of the most misused and ripped out of its context passages quoted against the truth of God's free grace. The "any" is referring to the "us Peter is writing to and in its context doesn't apply to all men without exception.

This is ridiculously false. In the Greek sentence from which this is translated, the Greek word τινας is an unqualified pronominal adjective meaning “any.” Therefore, it cannot be interpreted to be referring to any class of persons distinct from all persons. Hence Richard J Bauckham writes regarding 2 Peter 3:9 in his commentary on the Greek text of this epistle, “God desires all, without exception, to repent and escape damnation.” And of course the context here absolutely eliminates any other interpretation because this passage is about the objection of some that the Lord is slow about His promise of the “coming of the day of God,” a world-wide event that is being delayed because the Lord “is patient toward you, not wishing for any [in the entire world] to perish but for all [everywhere] to come to repentance.”

Ezekiel 18:23. "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11. "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'


These 2 passages in their context show the insanity of unbelief. God does not get some sadistic pleasure from the death of the wicked. The word pleasure can be translated satisfaction. Neither, when understood properly in their context, teach anything that dispute the truth that God's will is always done.


These two verses prove that it is the will of God that the wicked should repent and live, but we know from the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the history of the world that the will of God is all too often thwarted by men.

This is called prooftexting and it is not an accepted method of hermeneutics. It is making the Bible say what you want it to say without regard to either context or the teaching of the whole of Scripture.
There is a saying, " Any text taken out of its context becomes a pretext."

This could not possible be further from the truth! Every work of systematic theology that I have in my home library, and I have many of them representing a very broad spectrum of creeds and denominations, uses “prooftexting” (correctly known as “citing verses”) as evidence for their theological position.

[PrincetonGuy]

Actually we have a third possibility, any limitations on displays of God's grace are self imposed. Lazarus was having a " low faith " day right before he walked out of the tomb, if you notice in verse 5, Jesus healed a few sick people, somehow I just have to think He could have done more if He had so pleased.

Mark 6:1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
6. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. (NASB, 1995)

Mark says that the ability of Jesus to do miracles in his hometown was limited by the people’s lack of belief in Him—that is NOT self-imposed limitation but limitation imposed by the people!

Mark here writes that Jesus could not perform many miracles in His hometown because the people there did not believe in him and were offended by him, and yet you believe that he could have? I believe Mark; who do you believe?


And if Job contradicts christian theology in Job 42:2, we need a different theology.


There is an abundance of a different theology in this thread! You can believe a heathen sheikh if you want to; I prefer to believe what Mark says in his gospel.

[PrincetonGuy]

Does God's will always happen?


There are basically two views here:

1. The wrong view

2. The Biblical view

The Bible says that in many situations people rebel against God and do their thing (that which they will to do) instead of God’s thing (that which God wills them to do). The Bible also says that it is man, not God, who decides who will rebel and who will not. Many hundreds of passages could be cited here to incontrovertibly prove that this is true, but rather than burden you with hundreds of them, I shall post just a few of them.


Deut. 9:7. "Remember, do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness; from the day that you left the land of Egypt until you arrived at this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD.
8. "Even at Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, and the LORD was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you.
9. "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.
10. "The LORD gave me the two tablets of stone written by the finger of God; and on them were all the words which the LORD had spoken with you at the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly.
11. "It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.
12. "Then the LORD said to me, 'Arise, go down from here quickly, for your people whom you brought out of Egypt have acted corruptly. They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them; they have made a molten image for themselves.'
13. "The LORD spoke further to me, saying, 'I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a stubborn people.
14. 'Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.'
15. "So I turned and came down from the mountain while the mountain was burning with fire, and the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands.
16. "And I saw that you had indeed sinned against the LORD your God. You had made for yourselves a molten calf; you had turned aside quickly from the way which the LORD had commanded you.
17. "I took hold of the two tablets and threw them from my hands and smashed them before your eyes.
18. "I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all your sin which you had committed in doing what was evil in the sight of the LORD to provoke Him to anger.
19. "For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was wrathful against you in order to destroy you, but the LORD listened to me that time also.
20. "The LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him; so I also prayed for Aaron at the same time.
21. "I took your sinful thing, the calf which you had made, and burned it with fire and crushed it, grinding it very small until it was as fine as dust; and I threw its dust into the brook that came down from the mountain.
22. "Again at Taberah and at Massah and at Kibroth-hattaavah you provoked the LORD to wrath.
23. "When the LORD sent you from Kadesh- barnea, saying, 'Go up and possess the land which I have given you,' then you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God; you neither believed Him nor listened to His voice.
24. "You have been rebellious against the LORD from the day I knew you.

Psalms 68:6. God makes a home for the lonely; He leads out the prisoners into prosperity, Only the rebellious dwell in a parched land.

Psalms 78:8. And not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not prepare its heart And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

Isa. 30:1. "Woe to the rebellious children," declares the LORD, "Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin;
2. Who proceed down to Egypt Without consulting Me, To take refuge in the safety of Pharaoh And to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt!

Isa. 65:2. "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,
3. A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;
4. Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.

Jer. 5:22. 'Do you not fear Me?' declares the LORD. 'Do you not tremble in My presence? For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it. Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.
23. 'But this people has a stubborn and rebellious heart; They have turned aside and departed.
24. 'They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain in its season, Both the autumn rain and the spring rain, Who keeps for us The appointed weeks of the harvest."
25. 'Your iniquities have turned these away, And your sins have withheld good from you.
26. 'For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch men.
27. 'Like a cage full of birds, So their houses are full of deceit; Therefore they have become great and rich.
28. 'They are fat, they are sleek, They also excel in deeds of wickedness; They do not plead the cause, The cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; And they do not defend the rights of the poor.
29. 'Shall I not punish these people?' declares the LORD, 'On a nation such as this Shall I not avenge Myself?'
30. "An appalling and horrible thing Has happened in the land:
31. The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule on their own authority; And My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?

Ezek. 2:3. Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.
4. "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
5. "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them.
6. "And you, son of man, neither fear them nor fear their words, though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house.
7. "But you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious.
8. "Now you, son of man, listen to what I am speaking to you; do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I am giving you."

1 Sam. 12:14. "If you will fear the LORD and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the LORD, then both you and also the king who reigns over you will follow the LORD your God.
15. "If you will not listen to the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the command of the LORD, then the hand of the LORD will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

Hos. 7:13. Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me! Destruction is theirs, for they have rebelled against Me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against Me.
14. And they do not cry to Me from their heart When they wail on their beds; For the sake of grain and new wine they assemble themselves, They turn away from Me.
15. Although I trained and strengthened their arms, Yet they devise evil against Me.
16. They turn, but not upward, They are like a deceitful bow; Their princes will fall by the sword Because of the insolence of their tongue. This will be their derision in the land of Egypt.

(All Scripture quotations are from the Update NASB, 1995)

[PrincetonGuy]

Notice especially Jer. 5:22-23,

Jer. 5:22. 'Do you not fear Me?' declares the LORD. 'Do you not tremble in My presence? For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it. Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.
23. 'But this people has a stubborn and rebellious heart; They have turned aside and departed.

If one reads Jer. 5:22 out of context, it appears to say that no one can resist the will of God, but the very next word in the very next verse is the word “But.” In spite of the fact that the waves of the sea toss and yet cannot prevail, in spite of the fact that the waves roar and yet cannot cross over the sand that God has placed for a boundary for the sea, man can and does succeed in rebelling against and thwarting the will of God, even to the point of departing from Him.

[Seeker of the Truth]

Firstly, thank you PrincetonGuy for you explanation. I always appreciate views/interpretations that are backed up.

Let me ask you something please! If sin is outside of Gods control who has control of sin?? And if sin can defeat Gods will then can God be defeated?? Also I know you think Gods will does not always happen so I have this question do you think God is omniscient? All knowing?


I believe God is all-knowing, yes. However, you fail to see that because God is all-knowing, He does not causes those things to be unless of course, we pray upon those things. That's why people always pray that God's will would be done in whatever situation they are praying (And no, I'm not basing my beliefs off of that, I get them from the Bible).

God chooses to let us have our own will and decide choices on our own as you can see by PrincetonGuy's posts. Also, God is all-powerful, He cannot be defeated, He is God.

[PETE_]

Matt. 4:1 What did the Holy Spirit lead (Gk. “anago” – forcibly take, as in Lk. 2:22; 22:66; and in Mk. 1:12 “ekballo” meaning “driven” or “impelled”) Jesus to do?

Has God ever driven/impelled/forcibly led you anywhere? If so, how did you know?

[PETE_]

Lk. 1:13, 15 At what point was John the Baptist filled/controlled by the Holy Spirit?

What does this tell you about God’s control over people?

Could John have drunk wine at any time during his life if he wanted?
Or, could Zacharias have named their son anything else if he wanted?
Or, could Mary (1:31) have named her son anything other than Jesus if she wanted? Why (1:45)?

[Salamon]

Also, God is all-powerful, He cannot be defeated, He is God.

Exactly! This point right here is were I think you are contradicting yourself. If God is all knowing than doesn't He know what will happen? And if He is all powerful and cannot be defeated. Wouldn't He have to allow sin??

Ok now if He allows sin does this make Him the author of it?? No it does not, God is Righteous He does not make people sin. But for His glory He does allow it. And if He allows it then it is His will to do so, therefore His will be done. I am sure that you would agree that all thing work together for the Glory of God!
Now please dont take my word for it if you want scripture to back this up I can post it I just didn't feel like typing it all up.

[Phileoeklogos]

Mark 6:1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
6. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. (NASB, 1995)

Mark says that the ability of Jesus to do miracles in his hometown was limited by the people’s lack of belief in Him—that is NOT self-imposed limitation but limitation imposed by the people!

Mark here writes that Jesus could not perform many miracles in His hometown because the people there did not believe in him and were offended by him, and yet you believe that he could have? I believe Mark; who do you believe?





There is an abundance of a different theology in this thread! You can believe a heathen sheikh if you want to; I prefer to believe what Mark says in his gospel.



How thou art risen, O fallen creature, so sinful men withhold the hand of God?

Matthew records this;


Mat 13:58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

and you still haven't dealt with the few sick folks in Mark that were healed by Jesus. Jesus has the power to come out of the tomb, but some unbelieving townfolk render him powerless? That sounds more like something Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland would say. If God does not do something, it is because He chooses not to do so.

The point of my original post was that God, having the ability and freedom to create any way He so desired, created the world to be such as it is, yes men sin, yes men resist, yes men freely choose to go to destruction, but in doing so they only act inside the bounds that God layed out for them, He is the Ruler of the Universe and Man has not surprised Him yet. You may choose to believe the train jumped the tracks and is making it's own course, but I cannot.

[PrincetonGuy]

How thou art risen, O fallen creature, so sinful men withhold the hand of God?

Matthew records this;


Mat 13:58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

Matthew tells us that Jesus did not do many mighty works in his hometown; Mark tells us why he didn’t—because he could not due to their unbelief.


and you still haven't dealt with the few sick folks in Mark that were healed by Jesus.

The Bible does not explicitly tell us why a few sick folks did get healed, but the context makes it very clear—a few of the sick folks, but only a few of them, believed and thus were healed.

Jesus has the power to come out of the tomb, but some unbelieving townfolk render him powerless? That sounds more like something Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland would say. If God does not do something, it is because He chooses not to do so.

Phileoeklogos says, “If God does not do something, it is because He chooses not to do so.”

The Bible says, “And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.”

Who should we believe, Phileoeklogos or the Bible? I choose to believe the Bible.

[mlqurgw]

Matthew tells us that Jesus did not do many mighty works in his hometown; Mark tells us why he didn’t—because he could not due to their unbelief.




The Bible does not explicitly tell us why a few sick folks did get healed, but the context makes it very clear—a few of the sick folks, but only a few of them, believed and thus were healed.



Phileoeklogos says, “If God does not do something, it is because He chooses not to do so.”

The Bible says, “And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.”

Who should we believe, Phileoeklogos or the Bible? I choose to believe the Bible.
There were a multitude at the pool in John 5 but Christ only healed one. The one He healed didn't even know who He was. It would seem that none of the others even sought healing after Christ made the man whole. Was it the man's faith that caused Christ to come to him and heal him? Was it the lack of faith in all the others that kept Him from healing them also? Hmm.

[PrincetonGuy]

There were a multitude at the pool in John 5 but Christ only healed one. The one He healed didn't even know who He was. It would seem that none of the others even sought healing after Christ made the man whole. Was it the man's faith that caused Christ to come to him and heal him? Was it the lack of faith in all the others that kept Him from healing them also? Hmm.


John chapter 5 raises more questions than it answers. Mark 6:5, however, could not be more explicit when read in context,

1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands