Christian Perfection-what's your understanding?

[MrJim]

I'll post some scriptures later-what is your understanding of "perfect" and "perfection" as described in the NT?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

that might be a good question - as when Jesus said 'you must be perfect' ....

(he did not say it was an option)...

so what do you do about that ? (so many denoms say you cannot be perfect, so did Jesus command something unattainable ? )

[MrJim]

Matt5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matt19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke1: 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Luke6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1Cor2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2Cor13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Phillipians3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Tim3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

James1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1Peter5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

...ok, that's not even all of them in the NT.

[MrJim]

...yeah, I know, it's a tough subject...

[intheway]

You can make it a bit tougher...add this to the mix:

Rom 3:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom003.html#12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom003.html#10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[MrJim]

You can make it a bit tougher...add this to the mix:

Rom 3:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom003.html#12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom003.html#10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

That's speaking about the unredeemed though...

[JimfromOhio]

I will start with a quote: “The regenerate man often has a more difficult time of it than the unregenerate, for he is not one man but two. He feels within him a power that tends toward holiness and God, while at the same time he is still a child of Adam's flesh and a son of the red clay.” A.W. Tozer

Proverbs 20:9 says, "Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" Matthew 5:8 says that those who are pure in heart "shall see God." When my heart is purified by Christ that I will see God. And the purer my heart is the more of God I will see. If I don’t have a regenerate heart, my heart is not worth keeping, and it’s impossible for such a heart to produce any true righteousness.

In the first chapter of Job, in the first part of the first chapter, he’s identified as one of the most righteous, if not the most righteous man on earth—the purist man, the holiest man. Job said when "debating" with his friends “What is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained?". Job knew that it is the heart that is the issue because his friends were telling him, " “Well, this is evidence that you are a sinful man! This is proof positive, Job, that there’s something really rotten in your life—and, obviously, we don’t know about it!” God knows that Job's heart was pure but Job's friends didn't.

Where I will have the clearest spiritual sight and where I will be able to serve my God from my heart?

Where I set my heart is really the critical issue in my spiritual life?

Will it determine how I perceive everything?

If my heart is right and my treasure is toward God, then I am going to have the right kind of spiritual perception. David's close relationship with the Lord caused him to have a broken heart when he sinned (Ps. 51:17). I have a strong desire to be like David because he was a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14). For two reasons why David was a man after God's own heart:

1. David loved God with all of his heart and always tried to put God first. David honored God above all, including himself.

2. When confronted with sin, David habitually confessed his fault, turned from offense, and sought forgiveness (1 Sam. 25:32-35; 2 Sam. 11:27-12:23; 2 Sam. 24:10-14). David humbled himself and could say to God, "Against you, and you alone, have I sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight." (Psalm 51:4)

What made David a special man of God was a humble heart that freely admitted faults and continually sought after God? Read: Matthew 5:3-5 and 2 Corinthians 1:3-1.

Luke 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12).

The Word of God is tuned to speak to our inner conscience and demonstrates with spiritual convictions. I want to have the peace of conscience, not war within when I sinned. When I sinned, I am grieving the Holy Spirit; "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30).

Romans 12:9 "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."

Ephesians 4:24 "and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives.

Learning from David, I have learned that God loves but He also hates. Psalm 97:10 "Ye who love the LORD, hate evil." Reading Psalms, David used six synonyms to describe Scripture: law, testimony, precepts, commandment, fear, and judgments. God sees and measures the heart more than He sees actions. Our sinful actions were the RESULT of our sinful heart. I also have learned that David was an example of how we are to serve others without demanding our rights.(LOVE) Psalm 27:4 -- David said, "One thing I have asked from the Lord, that I shall seek: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to meditate in His temple." David have cried more over things that have happened to other people that he care about than he have ever cried about things that have happened to him. When David is identified with God, the things that break his heart when some dishonor God.

[MrJim]

OK, now tie that in with the call of perfection...

[vespasia]

Perfection sounds like a good aim but its simply not achieveable in this world.

Lets continue to follow the one who is perfect and let Him continue to work on us with us and for the greater good of His body and lok forward to seeing real perfection with Him in the next.

[MrJim]

Perfection sounds like a good aim but its simply not achieveable in this world.

Lets continue to follow the one who is perfect and let Him continue to work on us with us and for the greater good of His body and lok forward to seeing real perfection with Him in the next.

Are ya sure it's unattainable?

Phillipians3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Paul seems to number himself among the "as many as be perfect" here...

[vespasia]

Yes, if we were perfect we would not need Christ and I John 1 tells us ALL men sin yet Christ did not.

As for a full comment on Phillipians could you cut me a couple of days slack or so. Neurologist just changed all my meds and i have turned into the mental equvilant of a choclate teapot.

Perfection sounds rather like 'enlightenment'. I would rather not have either in this world as either of those things makes me think there is no need of Christ and we do need Christ.

Sorry Menno I am struggling to verbally construct the discourse I wish I could present.

[MrJim]

Yes, if we were perfect we would not need Christ and I John 1 tells us ALL men sin yet Christ did not.

As for a full comment on Phillipians could you cut me a couple of days slack or so. Neurologist just changed all my meds and i have turned into the mental equvilant of a choclate teapot.

Perfection sounds rather like 'enlightenment'. I would rather not have either in this world as either of those things makes me think there is no need of Christ and we do need Christ.

Sorry Menno I am struggling to verbally construct the discourse I wish I could present.

:prayer: :hug:
Hoping you get better!

I am hearing what you are saying.

[vespasia]

*Its a long standing chronic thing Menno*

It will improve but changing drug doses and tweaking pain relivers tends to leave me with a mind that feels like its trawling through some sort of thick treacle till I get used to the initial side effects.

[MrJim]

:) I looked up "treacle" and found that it's what y'all call molasses.

Get better!

[CelticRose]

If none is perfect except God then the only way to obey this command is to abide in Him as He tells us to do. It is when we abide in him that we are conformed to His image.

It strikes me as being one of those 'tension of opposites' statements like finding your life by losing it. I tend to work with the things I do understand & trust God for the bits I don't ~ & I don't really understand how to be perfect.

[MrJim]

If none is perfect except God then the only way to obey this command is to abide in Him as He tells us to do. It is when we abide in him that we are conformed to His image.

It strikes me as being one of those 'tension of opposites' statements like finding your life by losing it. I tend to work with the things I do understand & trust God for the bits I don't ~ & I don't really understand how to be perfect.

There is a lot of mystery involved, though after a couple thousand years you'd think things would be figured out better:scratch:

[CelticRose]

People are people. I forget where the quote comes from about those who don't remember their history being doomed to repeat it, but it holds true scriptually as well in that it seems each individual must wrestle these things out with God themselves. I don't understand the purpose of marriage either as regards the next world when there is no marriage & no giving in marriage but it seems there is spiritual signifiance in the next world as well as this one.

[oliveplants]

Hey there, food for thought.

I've heard it said (hmm, that phrase sounds familiar, too!) that "perfect" in most of these verses simply means complete or sort of finished. That may just be a cop-out, though. Matt5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Doesn't leave a lot of room for loopholes, does it?

I think we modern Christians (myself especially, as I'm the one I know best) are missing something about the indwelling power of God. Peter was so full of God that just walking past people would heal them. And the best I can do is pray, and say "well, I know God CAN heal you, but only He knows if He WILL." It seems like I ought to know. THat if Holy Spirit is really living in me, some of Him would rub off or show somehow. That thought can only take me one of two places: 1, I'm not really born again yet, or 2, I need to pray more and be careful not to quench the Spirit when I do hear Him.
Emotionally it is easier to go with 1, but mentally I know the scriptures that speak to my salvation, so I have to go with option 2.

Sorry to ramble, hopefully I didn't end up too far off topic.

[contriteheart]

For what it's worth, there is a motherlode of information and testimonies about the concept of entire sanctification, Christian perfection, whatever you may like to call it at this site:

www.enterhisrest.org (http://www.enterhisrest.org)

-Grace

[MrJim]

Thank you contriteheart-this thread stems from a conversation at an arminian/wesleyan forum elsewhere.

[contriteheart]

You're quite welcome. This is a subject I am interested in at present, as well.

-Grace

[contriteheart]

One thing in particular that interests me is the correspondence with OT typology from the Exodus - especially the crossing of the Jordan and conquest of Canaan.

Many have seen the crossing of the Jordan to represent death and entrance into heaven, but I don't think that works, since they still had enemies to defeat by faith once they reached the promised land.

Still chewing on all of this...

-Grace

[contriteheart]

Sorry. On the surface, my previous post probably didn't make much sense as it relates to the idea of Christian perfection. It was a part of a larger train of thought about this subject that probably was rather confusing when posted out of its context.

-Grace

[ZiSunka]

One thing in particular that interests me is the correspondence with OT typology from the Exodus - especially the crossing of the Jordan and conquest of Canaan.

Many have seen the crossing of the Jordan to represent death and entrance into heaven, but I don't think that works, since they still had enemies to defeat by faith once they reached the promised land.

Still chewing on all of this...

-Grace

Throughout the Bible, crossing the Jordan is symbolic of making the decision to obey God.

When you got saved, that was a Jordan moment.

When you practice obedience to God dispite your desire not to, that's a Jordan moment.

When you make a decision to trust God with or about something, that's a Jordan moment.

[MrJim]

Never heard of a "jordan moment"-reminds me of a kodak moment ;)