The Sinner's Prayer <shudder>

[Frame1520]

Well, I had an interesting night last night...So I thought I'd give you the details, followed by a question for opinions (I have mine already).

Last night, I was taping an awards event for something called "Upwards Basketball". Basically, what Upwards Basketball is is a bunch of different churches of all denominations coming together to give an alternative for regular kids leagues for basketball. The kids are from 1st to 6th grade, boys and girls. They play basketball, and heavily incorporate God into the devotions and so forth.

Now, here's what got to me last night and left me twitching. At this awards, there were 4,000 some people packed into a large Church of God in the area. They had a speaker who was an "illusionist" who did some magic stuff. At the end, he told everyone to close their eyes, and say this prayer to become a Christian...Yep...It was the sinner's prayer...Invite Jesus into your heart and all that...

Now, I later got into a debate on this whole issue. The person I was debating agreed the sinner's prayer is unbiblical. We were together on that. However, they brought up the point that, isn't it better for the kids to be in a good christian environment than not? I rebutted with the fact that they were not being told the truth. That's not God's plan of salvation.

Long story short (believe me, I'm trying to be concise here), the question remains: Is it better to be in a good christian environment where they don't teach the "whole truth" or only "parts" of the plan of salvation, or is it better to not be taught anything at all?

It seems there is not truth anywhere anymore. Everything is so "seeker sensitive" and so watered down, that anymore no one knows what to believe (unless they read their bible, but that's another topic :P). The Restoration Movement has a bad habit of pushing baptism so hard that you get a lot of "dunking-n-running" Get them in, baptize them, and they disapear. Discipleship goes out the window! Now, on the denominational side, there's this "sinner's prayer" and "easy salavation". Baptism is merely symbolic, in their eyes.

I only struggle with the fact that both sides often leave out things. The full plan rarely seems to be talked about anymore. Last time I checked I thought you had to Hear the Word, Believe, Confess, Repent, & Be Baptized?:scratch: The best solution is for more of us to speak out, giving the full plan. The whole thing has just got me agrevated on how watered down everything is...I feel like I'm in a flood and the land is disapearing.

So back to the question: Is it better to be in a good christian environment where they don't teach the "whole truth" or only "parts" of the plan of salvation, or is it better to not be taught anything at all? So many people are being led astray...We can only pray that God will give us opportunity to bring them back.

I haven't posted for a while,but this has weighed heavy on my mind since last night. God Bless.

[JDIBe]

Frame,

I am familiar with Upwards basketball. My son is in YMCA because we didn't get him signed up in time.The question you ask is a valid one. The answer IMO, is "It depends." Sometimes knowing half the truth is more dangerous than not knowing at all. (Students in a Chemistry lab would be a great example...)

If you spend your time immersed in any teaching for a length of time with like-minded people, some of it will rub off on you. On the other hand, there is good to be found in sources outside the RM as well. The key is to establish a firm foundation of truth and glean the wheat from the tares. That is why it is so important to constantly continue to study your Bible instead of spending all your time chasing EVERY new idea that comes along. I know so many people who seem to have "moved beyond" the Bible. They can quote men's opinions on every subject but never seem to ever quote a verse. This seems very dangerous to me in that without that grounding it becomes harder and harder to tell which is the "wheat" and which is the "tares". So the answer is, "It depends.". Ideally you would want children who...

1. Understand there are people in the world who do not believe what they believe.
2. Know what they believe.
3. Understand WHY they believe what they believe.
4. Are able to glean the truth and reject the falsehood themselves.

But this is difficult for children. It is difficult for adults as well sometimes without stumbling.

Great topic, by the way. There's enough here for at least 3 threads. Welcome break from the IM stuff we usually talk about. I'll try to post something on the emphasis of baptism later. Getting ready to go on a trip.

And as for our illusionist friend and the "sinner's prayer".....

.....I'm afraid that was just another illusion....:sigh:

[fishon]

Frame1520,
I will address one of your questions at this time.
You wrote: "...the question remains: Is it better to be in a good christian environment where they don't teach the "whole truth" or only "parts" of the plan of salvation, or is it better to not be taught anything at all?

For safety and social reasons, I believe it is better to be in a Christian enviorment.

But for salvation reasons, I am of the persuasion that it would be better NOT to be in a Christians enviorment that is only teaching "parts" 'of the plan of salvation.'"

People don't get saved partically. It is all or nothing. So when they are taught a partical salvation, they go away believing they are saved, but really are not. Those people are very difficult to then teach the real plan of salvation to.

Just my 2 cents worth.
fishon

[WesWoodell]

I feel confident in saying that some Jesus is better than no Jesus at all, but I would be more than a little bothered if someone tried to teach my children what you've described.

[Splayd]

I feel confident in saying that some Jesus is better than no Jesus at all, but I would be more than a little bothered if someone tried to teach my children what you've described.
I would have absolutely agreed with you (about some being better than none) before I started teaching in a Catholic School. Now I'm not so sure.

Peace

[crawfish]

My kids are in Upwards - through our CofC congregation. As you would expect, we push the conversion thing a little differently - at the end we allow the kids/parents to fill out cards indicating if they want to be contacted.

I tend to think its dangerous for restoration churches to avoid Christian organizations like this - they do a lot of good, reach a lot of people, and it keeps us from having any influence over people who are drawn to them. For instance, the Billy Graham crusades typically preach a pretty generic message but allow specific groups to be present to speak specifically about becoming a Christian to those who want to know Christ in their own specific way. The CofC avoids this but we also limit the influence we have.


I remember a small town that was hit by a disaster back in the 70's. The local churches banded together to provide aid to those who needed it - all but the local CofC, who felt it was against their beliefs to collaborate with those they had disagreements with. They ended up giving some aid on their own, but relatively little and all to people they had some connection to. Who do you think the town viewed as being more Christ-like?

There were big differences between the various churches in the first century, yet they still worked together towards a common purpose. We should work to emulate that.

[Mary of Bethany]

How do the churches in the RM bring someone into the church/to Christ?

Mary

[united4Peace]

Well, I had an interesting night last night...So I thought I'd give you the details, followed by a question for opinions (I have mine already).

Last night, I was taping an awards event for something called "Upwards Basketball". Basically, what Upwards Basketball is is a bunch of different churches of all denominations coming together to give an alternative for regular kids leagues for basketball. The kids are from 1st to 6th grade, boys and girls. They play basketball, and heavily incorporate God into the devotions and so forth.

Now, here's what got to me last night and left me twitching. At this awards, there were 4,000 some people packed into a large Church of God in the area. They had a speaker who was an "illusionist" who did some magic stuff. At the end, he told everyone to close their eyes, and say this prayer to become a Christian...Yep...It was the sinner's prayer...Invite Jesus into your heart and all that...

Now, I later got into a debate on this whole issue. The person I was debating agreed the sinner's prayer is unbiblical. We were together on that. However, they brought up the point that, isn't it better for the kids to be in a good christian environment than not? I rebutted with the fact that they were not being told the truth. That's not God's plan of salvation.

Long story short (believe me, I'm trying to be concise here), the question remains: Is it better to be in a good christian environment where they don't teach the "whole truth" or only "parts" of the plan of salvation, or is it better to not be taught anything at all?

It seems there is not truth anywhere anymore. Everything is so "seeker sensitive" and so watered down, that anymore no one knows what to believe (unless they read their bible, but that's another topic :P). The Restoration Movement has a bad habit of pushing baptism so hard that you get a lot of "dunking-n-running" Get them in, baptize them, and they disapear. Discipleship goes out the window! Now, on the denominational side, there's this "sinner's prayer" and "easy salavation". Baptism is merely symbolic, in their eyes.

I only struggle with the fact that both sides often leave out things. The full plan rarely seems to be talked about anymore. Last time I checked I thought you had to Hear the Word, Believe, Confess, Repent, & Be Baptized?:scratch: The best solution is for more of us to speak out, giving the full plan. The whole thing has just got me agrevated on how watered down everything is...I feel like I'm in a flood and the land is disapearing.

So back to the question: Is it better to be in a good christian environment where they don't teach the "whole truth" or only "parts" of the plan of salvation, or is it better to not be taught anything at all? So many people are being led astray...We can only pray that God will give us opportunity to bring them back.

I haven't posted for a while,but this has weighed heavy on my mind since last night. God Bless.
I dont believe one "needs" to be baptised, though I was and so were our children as infants.

That said, who says what Church is right and what Church is wrong in the way they teach?
Everyone of us is going to intrepret scripture differently, therefore will see God in a different light.

Instead, Why not concentrate on what we all have in common which is Christ? (Our Faith in Christ).

[Frame1520]

Frame,

I am familiar with Upwards basketball. My son is in YMCA because we didn't get him signed up in time.The question you ask is a valid one. The answer IMO, is "It depends." Sometimes knowing half the truth is more dangerous than not knowing at all. (Students in a Chemistry lab would be a great example...)

If you spend your time immersed in any teaching for a length of time with like-minded people, some of it will rub off on you. On the other hand, there is good to be found in sources outside the RM as well. The key is to establish a firm foundation of truth and glean the wheat from the tares. That is why it is so important to constantly continue to study your Bible instead of spending all your time chasing EVERY new idea that comes along. I know so many people who seem to have "moved beyond" the Bible. They can quote men's opinions on every subject but never seem to ever quote a verse. This seems very dangerous to me in that without that grounding it becomes harder and harder to tell which is the "wheat" and which is the "tares". So the answer is, "It depends.". Ideally you would want children who...

1. Understand there are people in the world who do not believe what they believe.
2. Know what they believe.
3. Understand WHY they believe what they believe.
4. Are able to glean the truth and reject the falsehood themselves.

But this is difficult for children. It is difficult for adults as well sometimes without stumbling.

Great topic, by the way. There's enough here for at least 3 threads. Welcome break from the IM stuff we usually talk about. I'll try to post something on the emphasis of baptism later. Getting ready to go on a trip.

And as for our illusionist friend and the "sinner's prayer".....

.....I'm afraid that was just another illusion....:sigh:

Hi JDIBe! I believe that we are on the same page here. I just wanted to spark some conversation on the issue, and hope that it has given others something to think about. The truth about the matter seems to all boil down to a lack of biblical study. Many people today are so busy in their lives that they just "don't have time" to study the bible (as someone put it in one of our accoutability groupls last week). I certianly don't think we can "make" people learn the bible, but we can cetainly do a better job of encouragement, as well as accountability. I've found that accountability groups are very effective in helping people stay in the Word.

I'll answer a few more replies and then reveal my stance on the original question!

[Frame1520]

People don't get saved partically. It is all or nothing. So when they are taught a partical salvation, they go away believing they are saved, but really are not. Those people are very difficult to then teach the real plan of salvation to.


This seems to be the real issue...It almost seems as if after hearing a "partial salvation" people just become so blinded, or put up a huge wall, that they are unwilling to hear ANYTHING contrary to what they have been taught. I will listen to just about anyone, but in he end, it has to line up with the bible. I've tried to talk to numerous denominational friends who just won't even hear me out when I want to discuss an issue that is contrary to their "set-in-stone" beliefs. Funny thing is, the opposite is not true. I'll hear them out.

[Frame1520]

I feel confident in saying that some Jesus is better than no Jesus at all, but I would be more than a little bothered if someone tried to teach my children what you've described.
Yeah, the thing is, he could have just left it at "Jesus died for our sins". Most of what he talked about was GREAT. But when he came out with the sinner's prayer, I just couldn't understand why he felt he needed to convert the whole audience.

[Frame1520]

I would have absolutely agreed with you (about some being better than none) before I started teaching in a Catholic School. Now I'm not so sure.

Peace
I'd be curious to the story behind that...

[Frame1520]

My kids are in Upwards - through our CofC congregation. As you would expect, we push the conversion thing a little differently - at the end we allow the kids/parents to fill out cards indicating if they want to be contacted.

I tend to think its dangerous for restoration churches to avoid Christian organizations like this - they do a lot of good, reach a lot of people, and it keeps us from having any influence over people who are drawn to them. For instance, the Billy Graham crusades typically preach a pretty generic message but allow specific groups to be present to speak specifically about becoming a Christian to those who want to know Christ in their own specific way. The CofC avoids this but we also limit the influence we have.


I remember a small town that was hit by a disaster back in the 70's. The local churches banded together to provide aid to those who needed it - all but the local CofC, who felt it was against their beliefs to collaborate with those they had disagreements with. They ended up giving some aid on their own, but relatively little and all to people they had some connection to. Who do you think the town viewed as being more Christ-like?

There were big differences between the various churches in the first century, yet they still worked together towards a common purpose. We should work to emulate that.
Certainly. For the most part, I agree. It shouldn't be a free reign opportunity to shove a doctrinal belief down someone's throat. Perhaps he should've approached the situation differently, and instead of issuing an all-saving sinner's prayer, and given the encouragement to study the bible, talk to their parents/minister (for kids) and pray before making a decision. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy, but that would probably be how I would approach it. I wouldn't get up and say, "You have to come up here and be baptized right now!"

[Frame1520]

How do the churches in the RM bring someone into the church/to Christ?

Mary
Hear the Word, Believe, Confess, Repent, & Be Baptized.

That's a short explanation. Obviously, baptism is not the end-all. It is part of a bigger plan. Not to mention that your walk with Christ continues your whole life (living by the fruits of the spirit, evangelizing the lost, discipleship, etc.) I could provide some scriptures if anyone wants additional clarification. Hope this helps.

[Frame1520]

I dont believe one "needs" to be baptised, though I was and so were our children as infants.
Kind of off the topic of the discussion, but what is your view of baptism?

That said, who says what Church is right and what Church is wrong in the way they teach?
Everyone of us is going to intrepret scripture differently, therefore will see God in a different light.
The short answer (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic here) is God says what is right and wrong as far as doctrine goes. When we study the greek, and hebrew for that matter, we can learn a lot about what is actually said (in translations) from the original manuscripts. I'm not saying one church is right or not. I'm not even saying one person's interpretation is right or wrong. All I can say is that God is pretty clear thru His word. Is it always an easy concept? Certainly not. That probably explains why there are so many different "interpretations".

Instead, Why not concentrate on what we all have in common which is Christ? (Our Faith in Christ).
Absolutely! God wants unity among His people. And is everyone going to have the same answer for the same question? Probably not. We are Christians only, not the only Christians. All I pray for is people to open up their bibles and see what God has to say. Anything outside of that is irrelevant.

Thanks for your comments btw. :) I appreciate the conversation.

[united4Peace]

Kind of off the topic of the discussion, but what is your view of baptism?


The short answer (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic here) is God says what is right and wrong as far as doctrine goes. When we study the greek, and hebrew for that matter, we can learn a lot about what is actually said (in translations) from the original manuscripts. I'm not saying one church is right or not. I'm not even saying one person's interpretation is right or wrong. All I can say is that God is pretty clear thru His word. Is it always an easy concept? Certainly not. That probably explains why there are so many different "interpretations".


Absolutely! God wants unity among His people. And is everyone going to have the same answer for the same question? Probably not. We are Christians only, not the only Christians. All I pray for is people to open up their bibles and see what God has to say. Anything outside of that is irrelevant.

Thanks for your comments btw. :) I appreciate the conversation.
Baptism is bringing one into God's family (welcoming one). A symbolism I suppose as I believe we are already a part of God's family even if we arnt baptised through the fact that we are God's creation.
When one get's older though, as a teenager or as an adult if they decide to Follow Christ (Christianity) then they go through Confirmation classes and become Confirmed.
Confirmation is probably like adult baptism in a way, only we had the water as babies so we only have the laying of hands. We may go through Confirmation as many times as we want, baptism only happens once.


As for the rest, your welcome (comment remarks) and ditto goes :)

(Though I look at the Bible at God Inspired instead of God's word, you did leave some food for thought in the middle section :) )

God Bless

[Mary of Bethany]

Hear the Word, Believe, Confess, Repent, & Be Baptized.

That's a short explanation. Obviously, baptism is not the end-all. It is part of a bigger plan. Not to mention that your walk with Christ continues your whole life (living by the fruits of the spirit, evangelizing the lost, discipleship, etc.) I could provide some scriptures if anyone wants additional clarification. Hope this helps.

Yes, thank you.

How would someone - a child perhaps, who has grown up in a CofC family - be accepted into the Body? IOW, "how" is it accomplished. I'm just curious, because I had just assumed it was sort of like the Baptist churches I grew up in - you walked the aisle and met with the preacher or deacon, tell him you wanted to be "saved", pray a prayer, and then you would be baptized at some point.

Thanks.

Mary

[Frame1520]

Baptism is bringing one into God's family (welcoming one). A symbolism I suppose as I believe we are already a part of God's family even if we arnt baptised through the fact that we are God's creation.
When one get's older though, as a teenager or as an adult if they decide to Follow Christ (Christianity) then they go through Confirmation classes and become Confirmed.
Confirmation is probably like adult baptism in a way, only we had the water as babies so we only have the laying of hands. We may go through Confirmation as many times as we want, baptism only happens once.


As for the rest, your welcome (comment remarks) and ditto goes :)

(Though I look at the Bible at God Inspired instead of God's word, you did leave some food for thought in the middle section :) )

God Bless
Interesting thoughts. I have an interesting study on Baptism that I might bring up when I have some more free time. I can see we have some real differences here. Maybe I'll start a new thread and we can discuss later? One thing I guarentee you will not get from me is any sort of judgementalism! It could be kind of a I ask a question, you respond, and ask a question sort of thing...(if that makes sense) Not that I'm trying to sway you on your belief, but I do think that differences are worth talking about. If you are up to it I'll start a new thread. No other strings attached other than question and answer.

God Bless!
Mike

[Frame1520]

Yes, thank you.

How would someone - a child perhaps, who has grown up in a CofC family - be accepted into the Body? IOW, "how" is it accomplished. I'm just curious, because I had just assumed it was sort of like the Baptist churches I grew up in - you walked the aisle and met with the preacher or deacon, tell him you wanted to be "saved", pray a prayer, and then you would be baptized at some point.

Thanks.

Mary
Hi Mary! Well, it seems to me in a coC, a child can be accepted when they are old enough to be accountable. How old is that? I don't know. I guess it would vary from person to person (maturity levels vary ie: a 12 yr old could be more mature than a 14 yr old, just depends on the person).

I look at "The Body" as not a specific congregation. Others would disagree with me, but "The Body" is The Body of Christ. To become a "member" of The Body of Christ (which usually also means membership in a specific congregation) you would follow the steps I listed earlier. Hear the Word, Believe, Confess, Repent, and Be Baptized. Those things would bring one into the Body of Christ. Thus, be becoming a Christian, and then being "in" the Body of Christ, you would also be considered a member at the church you were baptized in.

Now, if you are already a baptized believer, who has been "saved" you could come forward and confess that Jesus is Lord, and become a member of that particular fellowship...but I digress.

A child who is a baptized believer could become a member at coC. If they are not baptized yet, they would need to follow that step (in most cases) to become a member. Hope that makes sense...Its getting late and I have to get home!

God Bless!
Mike