Losing salvation vs. once saved always saved

[I'mHis]

What is everyone's thoughts on this? A friend and I were discussing this last night. We both think you can lose your salvation, but we differed on what that line was. I am having a bit of a sin issue right now that I can't seem to beat, but I don't think I have lost my salvation. She seemed to think that since in this one area I was rebelling (or whatever you want to call it), that I have walked away from God. I guess you could say we were debating where the line was drawn. What do you all think? I'd like to look into it a little farther. I just think "losing salvation" is more when you completely turn your back on God and anything to do with Him, and walk away from everything. I don't think that because I am having a really difficult time that I'm not saved. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just wanted to hear some other opinions on it.

[JoeV]

I don't really believe OSAS. It is possible to lose faith in God and therefore lose His forgiveness.

[rosiecotton]

What is everyone's thoughts on this? A friend and I were discussing this last night. We both think you can lose your salvation, but we differed on what that line was. I am having a bit of a sin issue right now that I can't seem to beat, but I don't think I have lost my salvation. She seemed to think that since in this one area I was rebelling (or whatever you want to call it), that I have walked away from God. I guess you could say we were debating where the line was drawn. What do you all think? I'd like to look into it a little farther. I just think "losing salvation" is more when you completely turn your back on God and anything to do with Him, and walk away from everything. I don't think that because I am having a really difficult time that I'm not saved. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just wanted to hear some other opinions on it.

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?

[JoeV]

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?
Maybe stop believing that God truly has the power to forgive sins. Also if we do not care about whether or not we sin.

[LJSGM]

just GIVE IT UP! Repent, turn from your sin and stop with the excuses

Matthew 5:29-31 (New International Version)

29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

I probably wouldn't go that far since God gives us the ability to control ourselves through faith, but it shows the seriousness of sin. Or did you want the watered down version?

[fifi]

I don't really believe OSAS. It is possible to lose faith in God and therefore lose His forgiveness.

Amen to that.

[JTLauder]

The only unforgivable sin described in the Bible is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". Without getting into a lengthly exposition about it, simply, it's rejecting the Holy Spirit's leading and turning your back to God.

I take that to mean completely and willing rejecting God and putting him out of your life. If you decide to do that even after salvation, yes, you would lose that. But it's more of a heart condition than a one time action. I don't believe that you lose your salvation just because you've sinned. If that were the case, everyone would lose their salvation because no one cannot sin.

Is this sin issue you're dealing with a sin you're repeatedly committing or a sin that you're unwilling to confess and repent?
You have to ask yourself why do you continue in it or why do you not want to ask forgiveness for it.

If it's a sin that you're repeatedly commiting, you'll have to examine what's causing that and find some way to stop it. You have to decide if you really want to stop it or not.
If it's a sin you're refusing to confess to, ask yourself why? What is holding you back and what does that gain you?

Pray about it, and ask others to pray for you. Then you need to decide what's more important to you: to continue in that sin or being reconciled to God.

[I'mHis]

just GIVE IT UP! Repent, turn from your sin and stop with the excuses

Matthew 5:29-31 (New International Version)

29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

I probably wouldn't go that far since God gives us the ability to control ourselves through faith, but it shows the seriousness of sin. Or did you want the watered down version?
lol No, why would I want the watered down version?

[GodHasPower]

what salvation it would be if we could lose it?

[LJSGM]

lol No, why would I want the watered down version?

;) good on yah

[JTLauder]

The only unforgivable sin described in the Bible is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". Without getting into a lengthly exposition about it, simply, it's rejecting the Holy Spirit's leading and turning your back to God.

I take that to mean completely and willing rejecting God and putting him out of your life. If you decide to do that even after salvation, yes, you would lose that. But it's more of a heart condition than a one time action. I don't believe that you lose your salvation just because you've sinned. If that were the case, everyone would lose their salvation because no one cannot sin.

Is this sin issue you're dealing with a sin you're repeatedly committing or a sin that you're unwilling to confess and repent?
You have to ask yourself why do you continue in it or why do you not want to ask forgiveness for it.

If it's a sin that you're repeatedly commiting, you'll have to examine what's causing that and find some way to stop it. You have to decide if you really want to stop it or not.
If it's a sin you're refusing to confess to, ask yourself why? What is holding you back and what does that gain you?

Pray about it, and ask others to pray for you. Then you need to decide what's more important to you: to continue in that sin or being reconciled to God.

I'd also add to reassure you that by your very act of asking about your sin and wanting to be right with God, you have not yet turned your back on God, so by that fact you haven't "lost" your salvation. He's tugging at your heart which is why you may be troubled by it so you haven't ignored him yet. Just go to him and tell him the conflict you're having.

[I'mHis]

:) Thanks! I definitely want the straight truth. I could fool myself all day long if I wanted to, but I want truth. No water for me!! lol I don't want to make light of sin, not at all. I know what I'm doing is wrong, and I know I need to correct it. There's no question in my mind about THAT. But I just don't think I am not saved anymore just because I am having a really hard time getting throguh this. But I don't want to be fooling myself into thinking I am okay either, just because I want to believe I am saved. That's why I wanted others opinions, not just my own.

[Jesusloevsu]

http://www.christianforums.com/http://www.christianforums.com/Jesus loves you!http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5471/loljesusqv8.jpg
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[I'mHis]

I'd also add to reassure you that by your very act of asking about your sin and wanting to be right with God, you have not yet turned your back on God, so by that fact you haven't "lost" your salvation. He's tugging at your heart which is why you may be troubled by it so you haven't ignored him yet. Just go to him and tell him the conflict you're having.
Thanks!!! I appreciate all of your encouraging words. :)

[Keenan]

Whether or not we lose his forgiveness it is always attainable again. Reaffirming your salvation (or refilling your spiritual "well" as I like to say) isn't something to be done half-heartedly. If I were to commit a sin numerous times and continue to ask forgiveness it would lose it's meaning. Be true to yourself and God will forgive.

All the best!

Ps: LG you quoted my favourite verse! Whenever I go to make eye contact with a Lady that's got a bf/husband I think of it. :crossrc:

[Merciel]

Personally, I believe that one can lose his or her salvation. The line at which salvation is lost? I don't know. Personally, I don't really care to know. It's like if I were married. Perhaps my wife would stay with me if I cheated on her, but rather than figure how terrible I would have to be to her before she'd leave me, I'd rather figure out ways to love her better and figure out why I do things that hurt her (just as one should figure out why one seeks to hurt God by sinning against Him, my reason is usually resentment).

[Ben12]

:) Thanks! I definitely want the straight truth. I could fool myself all day long if I wanted to, but I want truth. No water for me!! lol I don't want to make light of sin, not at all. I know what I'm doing is wrong, and I know I need to correct it. There's no question in my mind about THAT. But I just don't think I am not saved anymore just because I am having a really hard time getting throguh this. But I don't want to be fooling myself into thinking I am okay either, just because I want to believe I am saved. That's why I wanted others opinions, not just my own.

When I was stuggling someone showed me this verse that help me get past the tuff areas.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your character or moral disposition be free from
love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you nor give you up nor leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless nor forsake nor let [you] down ( relax My hold on you)! [ Assuredly not!]

[StevenL]

I believe both. :)

[BustedFlat]

I do not believe that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life in pencil. If that were the case my space would be a hole in the parchment.


I think it is funny that the verse that set off the reformation is an Old Testament verse:

Hab 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hab&chapter=2&verse=4&version=kjv#4)¶Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.






In Jesus




BustedFlat

[Ben12]

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

[Super Gnat]

I'd also add to reassure you that by your very act of asking about your sin and wanting to be right with God, you have not yet turned your back on God, so by that fact you haven't "lost" your salvation. He's tugging at your heart which is why you may be troubled by it so you haven't ignored him yet. Just go to him and tell him the conflict you're having.
I cosign this completely. While I do believe it's OSAS, I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about that--but either way, if it's possible, it's only through throwing yourself so far away from God that there's no way to come back, and if you really did that, you wouldn't care about going to heaven or what God thinks about you. If you're worried about it, it means it hasn't happened.

[BustedFlat]

Personally, I believe that one can lose his or her salvation. The line at which salvation is lost? I don't know. Personally, I don't really care to know. It's like if I were married. Perhaps my wife would stay with me if I cheated on her, but rather than figure how terrible I would have to be to her before she'd leave me, I'd rather figure out ways to love her better and figure out why I do things that hurt her (just as one should figure out why one seeks to hurt God by sinning against Him, my reason is usually resentment).


If I could do something to lose my salvation that means it is based on my works. Is that what you are attempting to say? Being saved, my goal should be to Glorify His Name, to become a rightful representation of Him. But I am saved by grace, and remain saved due to that grace.


In Jesus


BustedFlat

[Merciel]

If I could do something to loose my salvation that means it is based on my works. Is that what you are attempting to say? Being saved, my goal should be to Glorify His Name, to become a rightful representation of Him. But I am saved by Grace, and remain saved due to that Grace.


In Jesus


BustedFlat


Well, you do have to do something to gain your salvation in the first place (i.e. believe and repent), right? Does that make it a works-based salvation?

[BustedFlat]

Well, you do have to do something to gain your salvation in the first place (i.e. believe and repent), right? Does that make it a works-based salvation?


2Ti 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ti&chapter=1&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,




Would look as though our salvation came first, “ before the world began”. Believe, repent, confess are all after effects of the Lords Calling.
<edit> Understand that there is no works in salvation, only in accepting the gift that is given. Everyone has been given the gift , EVERYONE! Not all will accept it but the gift has been given and will not be rescinded. So no we do not have to do anything to get salvation.

</edit>

In Jesus


BustedFlat

[cavell]

We keep debating this old chestnut. Forgive me dear ones when I say, we are saved as long as we stay saved.

If we do not stay saved, then we are no longer saved.

Being human we excuse our shortcomings and backslidings as best we can. Thankfully for us all, God is merciful....slow to anger and plentious in mercy

Falling short....we cast ourselves upon His mercy

I am reading a book by Choo Thomas, a Korean American. The book is entitled 'Heaven is so Real'

This subject is dealt with

www.choothomas.com

[Cris413]

Can those of you who do not believe once saved...always saved please show me the Scripture that supports this?

I believe it's all level ground at the Cross. There is no measure of sin. Sin is sin in God's eyes.

I believe the consequences of certain sins in our lives are greater than others. Jesus died for ALL sin.

I believe to consider that we can lose our salvation is to consider God is a fickle God. You accept Jesus...you're in. Well...you walked away from Me...you're out. Now you've repented...you're back in. Ooops...that's a pretty big sin and you've committed it several times...you're back out. Whew...I'm so glad you repented...you're back in. This to me is just crazy thinking.

I will not even consider this concept of our loving Father and I think it demeans the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Ephesians 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

God bless

[MarkEvan]

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10

IMO these verses more than any others, irrefutably state that one can fall away from the faith which they once held. Firstly what does verse 26 mean when it says "after having recieved the knowledge of the truth," does it mean simply that if someone recieves the good news and rejects it and willfully continues in that sin, that for these there is no sacrifice for sins? Taken in it`s entire context it would not in this instance mean someone who has not been born again, for who (who has not been renewed in Spirit) has been sanctified, who isn`t born again.....no one!! Therefore due to the context, that someone is "sanctified in the blood of the covenant," it can only be talking about a believer.
If this passage was talking about those who are not born again, then why would Paul need to tell christians the result of those who are unbelievers and continuing in sin, this passage can do nothing to stop anyone from going to hell and cannot help anyone go to heaven, any verses of warning such as this serve no purpose if God has eternally decreed from the foundation of the earth those who He shall save and those whom He shall condemn. You could write a thousand books warning people of the consequences of sin, and it would be to no avail because it would not prick the conciense of anyone other than those whom God has saved.....and they can`t loose that anyway, so why tell them that "if they continue in sin there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."


Oh one thing to the OP, it does not take outward complete apostacy to loose your faith, read Matthew 7 14 onwards, Jesus also says that if we do not confess Him before others He will not confess us before the father....so you can be living your life right in all areas but if you are not giving the good news (ie are ashamed of Him and His words) then reguardless of all your other good works they will profit you nothing.



mark :)



Sorry I get a bit carried away sometimes :sorry:

[jsw_24]

I just can't see anything being powerful enough to pull Christ out of you, erase the Holy Spirit, wash away Christ's atonement and snatch you out of God's hand.

[MerCYsMIraCLe]

I do not believe that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life in pencil. If that were the case my space would be a hole in the parchment.


I think it is funny that the verse that set off the reformation is an Old Testament verse:

Hab 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Hab&chapter=2&verse=4&version=kjv#4)¶Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.






In Jesus




BustedFlat
great post!

[MerCYsMIraCLe]

Can those of you who do not believe once saved...always saved please show me the Scripture that supports this?

I believe it's all level ground at the Cross. There is no measure of sin. Sin is sin in God's eyes.

I believe the consequences of certain sins in our lives are greater than others. Jesus died for ALL sin.

I believe to consider that we can lose our salvation is to consider God is a fickle God. You accept Jesus...you're in. Well...you walked away from Me...you're out. Now you've repented...you're back in. Ooops...that's a pretty big sin and you've committed it several times...you're back out. Whew...I'm so glad you repented...you're back in. This to me is just crazy thinking.

I will not even consider this concept of our loving Father and I think it demeans the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Ephesians 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

God bless
And another great post!

[MarkEvan]

I do not believe that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life in pencil. If that were the case my space would be a hole in the parchment.


Then why in Revelation does Jesus threaten the churches with, removing the lampstand from amongst them, and from blotting their names out of the book of life?
Although I do not believe that He literally blotts names out, I do believe that He is here telling them that their salvation is dependant upon what they do....."work out your salvation with fear and trembling!"

mark:)

[Cris413]

Hebrews 10

IMO these verses more than any others, irrefutably state that one can fall away from the faith which they once held. Firstly what does verse 26 mean when it says "after having recieved the knowledge of the truth," does it mean simply that if someone recieves the good news and rejects it and willfully continues in that sin, that for these there is no sacrifice for sins? Taken in it`s entire context it would not in this instance mean someone who has not been born again, for who (who has not been renewed in Spirit) has been sanctified, who isn`t born again.....no one!! Therefore due to the context, that someone is "sanctified in the blood of the covenant," it can only be talking about a believer.
If this passage was talking about those who are not born again, then why would Paul need to tell christians the result of those who are unbelievers and continuing in sin, this passage can do nothing to stop anyone from going to hell and cannot help anyone go to heaven, any verses of warning such as this serve no purpose if God has eternally decreed from the foundation of the earth those who He shall save and those whom He shall condemn. You could write a thousand books warning people of the consequences of sin, and it would be to no avail because it would not prick the conciense of anyone other than those whom God has saved.....and they can`t loose that anyway, so why tell them that "if they continue in sin there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."


Oh one thing to the OP, it does not take outward complete apostacy to loose your faith, read Matthew 7 14 onwards, Jesus also says that if we do not confess Him before others He will not confess us before the father....so you can be living your life right in all areas but if you are not giving the good news (ie are ashamed of Him and His words) then reguardless of all your other good works they will profit you nothing.



mark :)



Sorry I get a bit carried away sometimes :sorry:

Hi Mark,

First I would like to say that I have personally been blessed by many of your posts. Thank you brother!

This post did leave me a little confused. So if I missed the point of your post, my apologies. (Sometimes you just have to speak to me like I’m 2 years old)

Secondly, I would like to comment that I personally believe there is a difference in losing one’s “faith” and losing one’s “salvation”. I have lost “faith” before but in those wilderness times I never once doubted my “salvation” and I praised God everyday for His grace and mercy…especially during those times.

I was wondering when I posted the request for Scripture to support losing one’s salvation if anyone would quote Hebrews 10 – particularly verse 26.

In my study of this verse I found that I could not state my understanding more plainly and simply that as noted by Pastor Chuck Smith in his commentary in BLB: **

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (NKJV)

**This is talking to the Jew who is wavering in his faith in Jesus Christ and who is seeking to go back to the priest with a sin offering. There is no further sacrifice. The lamb will do nothing. For the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete. It is once and for all. And there is no further sacrifice that can be offered, of a goat or a lamb or a calf or anything else. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete. There remains no other sacrifice for your sins. You can’t go back to the old system.

Here is the link if anyone would like to read the entire commentary. I found the whole study wonderful
Click here (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=10&verse=26&Comm=Comm%2Fchuck_smith_c2000%2FHbr%2FHbr009.html%2339%26%7BChuck+Smith%26&Select.x=22&Select.y=11#39)

Also of note concerning Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV)

Please be aware there is a HUGE difference between “backsliders” (fallen back into sin) and “defectors” (a deliberate and decisive abandonment)

Pastor Chuck points out in his commentary regarding Hebrews 6:4-6

Satan often uses this verse to a person who has backslidden. He says, "Man, you are out. Do you see what it says here in Hebrews? You've had it. That was the unpardonable sin that you committed and there is no way to renew you to repentance. You are out of the game."

Again, Pastor Chuck Smith has wonderful commentary in BLB regarding this Scripture I encourage all to give it a read.

God bless

[MarkEvan]

Hi Mark,

First I would like to say that I have personally been blessed by many of your posts. Thank you brother!

This post did leave me a little confused. So if I missed the point of your post, my apologies. (Sometimes you just have to speak to me like I’m 2 years old)

Secondly, I would like to comment that I personally believe there is a difference in losing one’s “faith” and losing one’s “salvation”. I have lost “faith” before but in those wilderness times I never once doubted my “salvation” and I praised God everyday for His grace and mercy…especially during those times.

I was wondering when I posted the request for Scripture to support losing one’s salvation if anyone would quote Hebrews 10 – particularly verse 26.

In my study of this verse I found that I could not state my understanding more plainly and simply that as noted by Pastor Chuck Smith in his commentary in BLB: **

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (NKJV)

**This is talking to the Jew who is wavering in his faith in Jesus Christ and who is seeking to go back to the priest with a sin offering. There is no further sacrifice. The lamb will do nothing. For the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete. It is once and for all. And there is no further sacrifice that can be offered, of a goat or a lamb or a calf or anything else. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is complete. There remains no other sacrifice for your sins. You can’t go back to the old system.

Here is the link if anyone would like to read the entire commentary. I found the whole study wonderful
Click here (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=10&verse=26&Comm=Comm%2Fchuck_smith_c2000%2FHbr%2FHbr009.html%2339%26%7BChuck+Smith%26&Select.x=22&Select.y=11#39)

Also of note concerning Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV)

Please be aware there is a HUGE difference between “backsliders” (fallen back into sin) and “defectors” (a deliberate and decisive abandonment)

Pastor Chuck points out in his commentary regarding Hebrews 6:4-6

Satan often uses this verse to a person who has backslidden. He says, "Man, you are out. Do you see what it says here in Hebrews? You've had it. That was the unpardonable sin that you committed and there is no way to renew you to repentance. You are out of the game."

Again, Pastor Chuck Smith has wonderful commentary in BLB regarding this Scripture I encourage all to give it a read.

God bless





Hi Chris,

A lot of the times I find myself having to request things reworded so that I can get a better grasp of what is said, so don`t worry about if it doesn`t make sense just say and I will try to put it more clearly.

I also would like to add that I very much value your points of view on anything and this is the first time I have disagreed with anything you have said, however my understanding is not the rule which we should take...we should look to the scriptures for guidance.


.........now i`ve forgotten what I was going to say!!


Ah yes,


I also agree that there is a huge difference between loosing faith and salvation, salvation IMO is not yet ours, we have an assurance that those who endure to the end will be saved but that salvation is the end product, the culmination of our faith. Faith again IMO is something that can be lost, but when that loss is complete, ie when we are not only dipping into darkness but walking in it, then according to James 1 we have lost it, and without faith it is impossible to please God.

I have several objections to what pastor Chuck says of verse 26,

1/ Paul (I might as well continue saying paul as I believe he wrote hebrews) was not talking about someone who was wavering in faith, he was talking about someone who was wilffully doing that which they knew to be wrong.

2/ Pastor chuck does not address the verses that say that such a person has "profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the spirit of grace," if it were talking about someone who was thinking about going back to the old covenant, then what do these verses signify?

3/ It cannot only apply to a jew, we are both according to Paul, one in Christ Jesus, what applies to them applies to us.

4/ Finally think about what is being said, if Pastor chuck is right then someone who has not recieved the knowledge of the truth can still offer sacrifices that are acceptable to God, but we both kow that this is not the case. All men now fall into this covenant, all men are comanded to repent, there is no other sacrifice full stop for man other than that of christ.


For the moment I will stick with chapter 10.

Mark :wave:

[Cris413]

Then why in Revelation does Jesus threaten the churches with, removing the lampstand from amongst them, and from blotting their names out of the book of life?
Although I do not believe that He literally blotts names out, I do believe that He is here telling them that their salvation is dependant upon what they do....."work out your salvation with fear and trembling!"

mark:)
Wow Mark…you sure are sending me through the Word today…thank you brother.

The best I can give in response to this post is straight from the Word and encourage reading the entire Scripture rather than a verse or two:

Revelation 2:1-7 The Loveless Church

1 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;

3 “and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.

4 “Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

5 “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place – unless you repent

6 “But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God” (NKJV)

Keeping in mind Jesus is speaking to the Seven Churches of the Apocalypse.

Again…I feel led to quote commentary from Pastor Chuck Smith (KJV), as I am merely a work in progress and not a Pastor-Teacher:

So the warning is that He will not stay in a loveless church. He will take that church away from His presence. For where was Jesus walking in the midst? "This sayeth he who walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." So, it is relevant to the message of judgment that He announces. "If you don't repent, I am going to take and remove the church from the place of My presence. I won't stay", He is saying, "in a church that lacks love."

As I read the Word and ask the Spirit for guidance and understanding, I do not yet feel led that this is a warning that one can lose his/her salvation. It says to me that Jesus will not be present in a loveless church. The “works” of the church are wonderful…but the focus is not on works…but love…

Matthew 22:37,38 Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all yourheart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” 38 “this is the first and great commandment (NKJV)

God bless you brother.

[Cris413]

Hi Chris,

A lot of the times I find myself having to request things reworded so that I can get a better grasp of what is said, so don`t worry about if it doesn`t make sense just say and I will try to put it more clearly.

I also would like to add that I very much value your points of view on anything and this is the first time I have disagreed with anything you have said, however my understanding is not the rule which we should take...we should look to the scriptures for guidance.


.........now i`ve forgotten what I was going to say!!


Ah yes,


I also agree that there is a huge difference between loosing faith and salvation, salvation IMO is not yet ours, we have an assurance that those who endure to the end will be saved but that salvation is the end product, the culmination of our faith. Faith again IMO is something that can be lost, but when that loss is complete, ie when we are not only dipping into darkness but walking in it, then according to James 1 we have lost it, and without faith it is impossible to please God.

I have several objections to what pastor Chuck says of verse 26,

1/ Paul (I might as well continue saying paul as I believe he wrote hebrews) was not talking about someone who was wavering in faith, he was talking about someone who was wilffully doing that which they knew to be wrong.

2/ Pastor chuck does not address the verses that say that such a person has "profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the spirit of grace," if it were talking about someone who was thinking about going back to the old covenant, then what do these verses signify?

3/ It cannot only apply to a jew, we are both according to Paul, one in Christ Jesus, what applies to them applies to us.

4/ Finally think about what is being said, if Pastor chuck is right then someone who has not recieved the knowledge of the truth can still offer sacrifices that are acceptable to God, but we both kow that this is not the case. All men now fall into this covenant, all men are comanded to repent, there is no other sacrifice full stop for man other than that of christ.


For the moment I will stick with chapter 10.

Mark :wave:
Thank you for your insight. This is certainly not an issue that will be resolved in a day on CF ;) . Theologians have been discussing this issue for a long, long time and I certainly am not a theologian.

I use to have this conversation regularly with the Pentecostal Minister I use to work with...suffice it to say we both kept our own beliefs but what was really terrific was that the common ground we share is our love for the Lord.

See you there, brother! :amen:

God bless

PS...I will study and pray on this further and particularly your concerns regarding Pastor Chuck Smith's commentary. Again...this requires a rather intensive study.

[BustedFlat]

Then why in Revelation does Jesus threaten the churches with, removing the lampstand from amongst them, and from blotting their names out of the book of life?
Although I do not believe that He literally blotts names out, I do believe that He is here telling them that their salvation is dependant upon what they do....."work out your salvation with fear and trembling!"

mark:)


Is he talking about the saved? Or is he talking about those who think that sitting in church (works) saves them?
Is he talking about the churches that teach you can only be saved if they say you are?

The judge at the White Throne Judgment will be Jesus and those not in the book of life will have their judgment. Revelation 20:11-15:
Rev 20:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=20&verse=11&version=kjv#11)¶And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=20&verse=12&version=kjv#12)And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=20&verse=13&version=kjv#13)And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. :14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=20&verse=14&version=kjv#14)And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=20&verse=15&version=kjv#15)And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hi Chris,

A lot of the times I find myself having to request things reworded so that I can get a better grasp of what is said, so don`t worry about if it doesn`t make sense just say and I will try to put it more clearly.

I also would like to add that I very much value your points of view on anything and this is the first time I have disagreed with anything you have said, however my understanding is not the rule which we should take...we should look to the scriptures for guidance.


.........now i`ve forgotten what I was going to say!!


Ah yes,


I also agree that there is a huge difference between loosing faith and salvation, salvation IMO is not yet ours, we have an assurance that those who endure to the end will be saved but that salvation is the end product, the culmination of our faith. Faith again IMO is something that can be lost, but when that loss is complete, ie when we are not only dipping into darkness but walking in it, then according to James 1 we have lost it, and without faith it is impossible to please God.

I have several objections to what pastor Chuck says of verse 26,

1/ Paul (I might as well continue saying paul as I believe he wrote hebrews) was not talking about someone who was wavering in faith, he was talking about someone who was wilffully doing that which they knew to be wrong.
2/ Pastor chuck does not address the verses that say that such a person has "profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the spirit of grace," if it were talking about someone who was thinking about going back to the old covenant, then what do these verses signify?
3/ It cannot only apply to a jew, we are both according to Paul, one in Christ Jesus, what applies to them applies to us.

4/ Finally think about what is being said, if Pastor chuck is right then someone who has not recieved the knowledge of the truth can still offer sacrifices that are acceptable to God, but we both kow that this is not the case. All men now fall into this covenant, all men are comanded to repent, there is no other sacrifice full stop for man other than that of christ.


For the moment I will stick with chapter 10.

Mark :wave:

The book of Hebrews was written to address the questions and concerns of the Jewish believer. It very much contains valuable information for all believers, but its focus is on the Jewish, and it is dealing with them wanting to go back to the traditions of the temple. They have a lifetime of Levitical law preached at them and are wanting to go back to what they have always been taught. It is very important that you understand the first chapters as well as the first verses of the chapter to understand what is going on in 10:26. As A. J. Fausset (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=10&verse=26&Comm=Comm/jfb/Hbr/Hbr010.html#54992@@@@@55145@@@@@55208@@@@@55215&JF+%5E&B&Select.x=27&Select.y=12) wrote in his 1871 commentary:

Previously the oneness of Christ's offering was shown; now is shown its perfection as contrasted with the law sacrifices.
the Spirit of grace--the Spirit that confers grace. "He who does not accept the benefit, insults Him who confers it. He hath made thee a son: wilt thou become a slave? He has come to take up His abode with thee; but thou art introducing evil into thyself" [CHRYSOSTOM]. "It is the curse of evil eternally to propagate evil: so, for him who profanes the Christ without him, and blasphemes the Christ within him, there is subjectively no renewal of a change of mind ( Hbr 6:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr006.html#6)), and objectively no new sacrifice for sins" ( Hbr 10:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr010.html#26)) [THOLUCK].

wilfully--presumptuously, Greek "willingly." After receiving "full knowledge (so the Greek, compare 1Ti 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti002.html#4)) of the truth," by having been "enlightened," and by having "tasted" a certain measure even of grace of "the Holy Ghost" (the Spirit of truth, Jhn 14:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn014.html#17); and "the Spirit of grace," Hbr 10:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr010.html#29)): to fall away (as "sin" here means, Hbr 3:12, 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr003.html#12); compare Hbr 6:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr006.html#6)) and apostatize ( Hbr 3:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr003.html#12)) to Judaism or infidelity, is not a sin of ignorance, or error ("out of the way," the result) of infirmity, but a deliberate sinning against the Spirit ( Hbr 10:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr010.html#29)Hbr 5:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr005.html#2)): such sinning, where a consciousness of Gospel obligations not only was, but is present: a sinning presumptuously and preseveringly against Christ's redemption for us, and the Spirit of grace in us. "He only who stands high can fall low. A lively reference in the soul to what is good is necessary in order to be thoroughly wicked; hence, man can be more reprobate than the beasts, and the apostate angels than apostate man" [THOLUCK].


A Jew who has not accepted Christ Jesus, must then by the Levitical Law continue with those laws and the sacrifices therein. This is why the loss of the Temple was such a stunning loss to them. Without it there is no chance for the sacrifice of sin.


In Jesus

BustedFlat

[epyon]

Once your are save Jesus is there alway advocating your soul to God. Jesus die for our sin so that when we turn our back all you have to do is ask forgiveness and it will be given.

[MarkEvan]

Thank you for your insight. This is certainly not an issue that will be resolved in a day on CF ;) . Theologians have been discussing this issue for a long, long time and I certainly am not a theologian.

I use to have this conversation regularly with the Pentecostal Minister I use to work with...suffice it to say we both kept our own beliefs but what was really terrific was that the common ground we share is our love for the Lord.

See you there, brother! :amen:

God bless

PS...I will study and pray on this further and particularly your concerns regarding Pastor Chuck Smith's commentary. Again...this requires a rather intensive study.

My dear sister, once again you prove your worth, you bring it back to the very core of our faith, for faith working through love is everything, next to this the doctrines we hold are not so important (I do not say they are not important but rather that faith working through love far exceeds them). And you are right theologians have gone back and forth over this issue giving it more weight than is needed, but as you have said, all we need is faith working through love.

God bless

Mark :)

[MarkEvan]

Is he talking about the saved? Or is he talking about those who think that sitting in church (works) saves them?
Is he talking about the churches that teach you can only be saved if they say you are?


Firstly let me wish you a happy birthday now as I may forget to on the day......so happy birthday in advance.

IMO Jesus is here talking to those who are saved, as it would appear from th ewords used that their names (in one sense) are in the book of life, otherwise the typology of "blotting them out" is meaningless as their names wern`t in to be blotted out in the first place. I do not doubt that what He says addresses the churches as a whole, but as churches are made up of individuals we need to know what it means to each individual.


The book of Hebrews was written to address the questions and concerns of the Jewish believer. It very much contains valuable information for all believers, but its focus is on the Jewish, and it is dealing with them wanting to go back to the traditions of the temple. They have a lifetime of Levitical law preached at them and are wanting to go back to what they have always been taught. It is very important that you understand the first chapters as well as the first verses of the chapter to understand what is going on in 10:26. As A. J. Fausset (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=10&verse=26&Comm=Comm/jfb/Hbr/Hbr010.html#54992@@@@@55145@@@@@55208@@@@@55215&JF+%5E&B&Select.x=27&Select.y=12) wrote in his 1871 commentary:



My appologies but from what I read A.J Fausset appears to be advocating what I said, I may need it re-explaining, lol.

Mark :)

[I'mHis]

Thanks for all of your opinions guys!! I appreciate what everyone has said.

[BustedFlat]

Firstly let me wish you a happy birthday now as I may forget to on the day......so happy birthday in advance.

Thank you, I may forget as well ... at least I would like my body to forget ... ;)

IMO Jesus is here talking to those who are saved, as it would appear from th ewords used that their names (in one sense) are in the book of life, otherwise the typology of "blotting them out" is meaningless as their names wern`t in to be blotted out in the first place. I do not doubt that what He says addresses the churches as a whole, but as churches are made up of individuals we need to know what it means to each individual.

I would point to Second Timothy:
2Ti 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ti&chapter=1&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



This would, to me, indicate that the names of everyone were written in the book of life before the beginning.

I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.


My appologies but from what I read A.J Fausset appears to be advocating what I said, I may need it re-explaining, lol.

Mark :)



With much prayer we will get into that in the future. Right now I need to get out of vacation mode and get myself back into work mode.



May the Peace of Jesus be with you my brother!



BustedFlat

[MarkEvan]

I would point to Second Timothy:

2Ti 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ti&chapter=1&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



This would, to me, indicate that the names of everyone were written in the book of life before the beginning.

I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.



I would agree that, those who are in the book of life have been in from the beggining and will not be taken out, this is IMO down to God`s foreknowledge. But As I said from the typology Jesus uses here of "blotting their names from the book," this would appear to be referencing to a believer, or as I said why would he say that their names would be blotted out? For them to be blotted out it would make sense that they were in there in the first place, so in type Jesus is saying they have faith in Him and so are saved.



I see no indication that Jesus is talking to believers, more so the warnings are to those who will teach false doctrine and use the Word for their own ends.



But what purpose would it serve a non believer, if God has chosen not to save them, then no amount of warnings are going to change that.


With much prayer we will get into that in the future. Right now I need to get out of vacation mode and get myself back into work mode.



May the Peace of Jesus be with you my brother!



BustedFlat


Youv`e been on holiday? Very nice where did you go? Myself I am going for a week in wales the second week of easter.

God bless

Mark :)

[BecauseHeLivesJG]

My personal view is once saved, always saved. I believe when someone is saved there life was changed in some form or fashion and that person really started to live for God(i'm not saying that the person won't mess up .. because obviously no one is perfect in this sin-filled world). Now I don't believe that a person was saved if they were supposedly saved .. say like on a Sunday Night .. and that next weekend he is out drinking and doing drugs .. that person never truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Just a little input from me.

God Bless You All. :)

[BustedFlat]

I would agree that, those who are in the book of life have been in from the beggining and will not be taken out, this is IMO down to God`s foreknowledge. But As I said from the typology Jesus uses here of "blotting their names from the book," this would appear to be referencing to a believer, or as I said why would he say that their names would be blotted out? For them to be blotted out it would make sense that they were in there in the first place, so in type Jesus is saying they have faith in Him and so are saved.

But what purpose would it serve a non believer, if God has chosen not to save them, then no amount of warnings are going to change that.


My reading is that each and every person from the thief on the cross to Mother Tresa to Idi Amin to Pol Pot had their name in that book, and if they reached the Judgment Seat of Christ and have not accepted that gift then their name will have been blotted out by Jesus. That what the bible says then I feel that is what will happen.


Youv`e been on holiday? Very nice where did you go? Myself I am going for a week in wales the second week of easter.

God bless

Mark :)

One of my co-workers father has a castle in Wales. I need to get over there one day. Enjoy it!

We went to the west coast of south Florida to spend a week with my parents and my sister and her husband. They winter there every year, so I try to slip across once around our birthdays. (father sister and I).


Bless you


BustedFlat

[walkwiththee]

I believe once saved always saved as well, but that does not negate the question of if someone was saved to start with. Salvation only comes when one truly believes in the Lord and asks him for salvation. We are then reborn (and you can't be unborn) into a new being.

We can fall away from God and certainly have a sinful life as a born again Christian, but I believe the Lord calls us back and watches over us. What one is losing from sin is not his salvation, but his rewards in heaven. The Lord will always do something to bring us back to him. Even if its calling us home to him.

I did not read the entire thread, but the original question is disturbing to me. Trying to play the line to not lose ones salvation but continue to have it "your way" is a flat out rejection of the Lord. Remember, Fear of the Lord, is very important and essential part of a Christian's life. Struggling to not sin is one thing, but sanctioning it or rationalizing it is quite another. Be for warned the Lord will find a way to encourage you to repent. Better we judge ourselves then to make him do it. Try finding the armor of God....it will help

The Lord is most High

Dan

[HowGreatIsOurGod]

I definately believe that you can be saved more then once. I am talking from a personal experience. Before I was saved the first time I was an athiest for 10 years, (growing up in the catholic church can do that to ya). I wasn't saved the first time till 2004, I was doing great when I let the world get in my way with my relationship with Jesus. I backslid, and before I knew it I stopped praying, and searching for Him. Once those pathways to god were broken down I started getting into all kinds of bad stuff. I even tried paganism, and till this day don't know why. The devil will do anything to tear you away from the Lord. When you start to feel the distance you might be backsliding.
That just means you need to seek God more. Even if it is a stagnant time, there are periods of that. Thats also when its easy to backslide.

[marke]

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?
2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.

[rosiecotton]

2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.

And how does that answer my question?

[BustedFlat]

I believe more like you...that you can turn your back on God and walk away from Him.
But, if you lose your salvation due to sue....then WHEN exactly do you lose it? Is it when you have committed a certain number of sins? Or if you commit a certain kind of sin?
I really do not know where I stand on this issue. But I do wonder, if we can lose our salvation, how do we lose it? What do we have to do in order to lose it?


Dearest Sister:


As I have commented through out this thread, I do not believe we can lose it, it was given to us to accept or reject as our free will dictates, once it is accepted it is ours. We will be standing on the right hand side of Christ watching the White Throne Judgment Rev 20:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#11).

Our Judgment will be by fire:

1Cr 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=10&version=kjv#10)According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=11&version=kjv#11)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=12&version=kjv#12)Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=13&version=kjv#13)Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=14&version=kjv#14)If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=15&version=kjv#15)If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


If we are backslid, living our life of sin, we will still be saved. We will have no rewards in heaven that we did not earn in this lifetime, but we are always saved.


In order to take what you have in this world, you must convert it to the currency of the Realm ... Build upon the foundation of Christ Jesus and your rewards await you!!! Praise God!!!!
:amen:


In Jesus


BustedFlat

[MarkEvan]

If we are backslid, living our life of sin, we will still be saved. We will have no rewards in heaven that we did not earn in this lifetime, but we are always saved.


Bustedflat, you have said many things in many posts that I have thought very good, this however is contrary to all of scripture, but I believe you know this. When Jesus saved the women caught in adultery He said, "go away and sin no more,"this does not fit in with living your life in sin (even were you saved). Paul says in Romans 3 (I think) that the wages of sin is death, and then in 1 corinthians 6, "do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved," and then most importantly the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 12 possibly 13, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD."

I will leave you with what James says in chapter 1, which I also believe is the answer to Rossiecottons (is that your name or have you taken that from the Lord Of The Rings?) question,

"but we are lured and enticed by our own desires and when we give in they concieve sin, but sin when it is full grown gives birth to death."

a paraphrase I am afraid but I would encourage you both to look it up in its context.

Mark :)

Oh by the way


Happy birthday (it is today according to the forum)

[BustedFlat]

Bustedflat, you have said many things in many posts that I have thought very good, this however is contrary to all of scripture, but I believe you know this. When Jesus saved the women caught in adultery He said, "go away and sin no more,"this does not fit in with living your life in sin (even were you saved).
It is the very heart of scripture. The whole need for Christ Jesus is that man can not make it to heaven by the law. We can not even get out of bed without sinning. Jesus sent her on her way knowing she, in the flesh, could never achieve what he has commanded. Thankfully we are commanded to try, not achieve.

Paul says in Romans 3 (I think) that the wages of sin is death, and then in 1 corinthians 6, "do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved," and then most importantly the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 12 possibly 13, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD."

The holiness that allows us to see the LORD is our accpetance of Jesus Christ into our life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive at that moment, no work of ours can give us that, only Jesus. Our inheritance is not the entrance to heaven but but the rewards that will be based on our works here,


I will leave you with what James says in chapter 1, which I also believe is the answer to Rossiecottons (is that your name or have you taken that from the Lord Of The Rings?) question,

"but we are lured and enticed by our own desires and when we give in they concieve sin, but sin when it is full grown gives birth to death."

a paraphrase I am afraid but I would encourage you both to look it up in its context.

Mark :)


More important question ... Are you married to Sam Gamgee? ;)

Jam 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=1&verse=15&version=kjv#15)Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


The giving in to sin, the embracing of sin, that can lead us away from Christ and toward Satan, At its fulfillment sin will lead you to reject the gift that is yours. God is not taking it away, you have not lost it, you have thrown it away.
There is not one among us who can make it through the day with out a sin in thought, a sin in deed, a sin by omission, a sin by commission. We all struggle with our sin. Only when we fully give in to it, it can lead us unto our deaths, not through losing our salvation, but by us rejecting it.



Oh by the way


Happy birthday (it is today according to the forum)

Beware the Ides of March! Thank you my brother.


What is your reading on First Corinthians 3:15?




1Cr 3:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=15&version=kjv#15)If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


In Jesus




BustedFlat

[MarkEvan]

It is the very heart of scripture. The whole need for Christ Jesus is that man can not make it to heaven by the law. We can not even get out of bed without sinning. Jesus sent her on her way knowing she, in the flesh, could never achieve what he has commanded. Thankfully we are commanded to try, not achieve.


You are right that Jesus knows that we in the flesh can only go on sinning, but that is why we have been given the Spirit, it is by relying on that Spirit that often we find the way out of temptation (1 or 2 corinthians 10). This is the whole argument of Romans 8, live by the Spirit which is life and peace or live by the flesh which is death, without the Spirit it is impossible to walk a holy walk, but with the Spirit we must walk as He walked.

The holiness that allows us to see the LORD is our accpetance of Jesus Christ into our life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we receive at that moment, no work of ours can give us that, only Jesus. Our inheritance is not the entrance toi heaven but but the rewards that will be based on our works here,


IMO holiness is simply that holiness, that is walking in the light as He is in the light, if any of us walk in darkness while claiming to walk in the light we lie and do not do what is true, 1 John 3 (the passage on the relationship between a believer and sin) is IMO true scriptural holiness. I will not say that we do not do anything towards holiness because in my understanding of scripture we do, God gives us the means and the ability to walk in righteousness, but He will not make us do it, it requires our effort to resist sin, but I need to make it clear that I believe that without Jesus we can do nothing.

The giving in to sin, the embracing if sin, that can lead us away from Christ and toward Satan, At its fulfillment sin will lead you to reject the gift that is yours. God is not taking it away, you have not lost it, you have thrown it away.
There is not one among us who can make it through the day with out a sin in thought, a sin in deed, a sin by omission, a sin by commission. We all struggle with our sin. Only when we fully give in to it, it can lead us unto our deaths, not through losing our salvation, but by us rejecting it.


Hmmm I agree that it is our rejection of this gift, that causes us to be lost, however are you here talking of a believer or a non-believer?


What is your reading on First Corinthians 3:15?




1Cr 3:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=3&verse=15&version=kjv#15)If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


I see it as referencing works not holiness, it isn`t here talking of sin IMO, it is possible to live a holy life and yet have all your works burned, but that comes down ultimately to what the works here talked of are, but that would be going off topic slightly, maybe you could start another thread, if you wish to go further with it (by no means do I claim to be any authority on this by the way).


More important question ... Are you married to Sam Gamgee? ;)


Thats a good question.....come on rosie tell us!!

Beware the Ides of March! Thank you my brother.


You know I had forgotten about that......no worrys though theres nothing to these old wives tales.....and if God is for you who can be against you!


God bless


Mark :)

[BustedFlat]

You are right that Jesus knows that we in the flesh can only go on sinning, but that is why we have been given the Spirit, it is by relying on that Spirit that often we find the way out of temptation (1 or 2 corinthians 10). This is the whole argument of Romans 8, live by the Spirit which is life and peace or live by the flesh which is death, without the Spirit it is impossible to walk a holy walk, but with the Spirit we must walk as He walked.


But we are flesh, not Spirit. We wear dirty rags until Jesus clothes us in white. We can not, as flesh, walk as he walked, although we are called to try.



IMO holiness is simply that holiness, that is walking in the light as He is in the light, if any of us walk in darkness while claiming to walk in the light we lie and do not do what is true, 1 John 3 (the passage on the relationship between a believer and sin) is IMO true scriptural holiness. I will not say that we do not do anything towards holiness because in my understanding of scripture we do, God gives us the means and the ability to walk in righteousness, but He will not make us do it, it requires our effort to resist sin, but I need to make it clear that I believe that without Jesus we can do nothing.

Our only choice is to accept or reject the gift. The gift is given.


Hmmm I agree that it is our rejection of this gift, that causes us to be lost, however are you here talking of a believer or a non-believer?


A non-believer is only called that as they have as yet to accept the gift. In truth Satan believes in The Christ, he just does not accept him.


I see it as referencing works not holiness, it isn`t here talking of sin IMO, it is possible to live a holy life and yet have all your works burned, but that comes down ultimately to what the works here talked of are, but that would be going off topic slightly, maybe you could start another thread, if you wish to go further with it (by no means do I claim to be any authority on this by the way).

Holiness has nothing to do with it. We are only holy due to our acceptance of Jesus. Mother Tressa, for all her works would not be heaven but by the Grace of God. She on the other hand will have an abundance of riches in heaven I will never be able to achieve IMO.


Thats a good question.....come on rosie tell us!!



You know I had forgotten about that......no worrys though theres nothing to these old wives tales.....and if God is for you who can be against you!


God bless


Mark :)
Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.




In Jesus


BustedFlat

[rosiecotton]

Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.

In Jesus


BustedFlat

Sam is my favorite hobbit!! :D

[MarkEvan]

But we are flesh, not Spirit. We wear dirty rags until Jesus clothes us in white. We can not, as flesh, walk as he walked, although we are called to try.



You are right we are in the flesh however, when we are born again Gods Spirit lives within us and rebirths our Spirit, hence the choice walk according to the Spirit or the flesh. I agree that we cannot walk as He did in perfect and complete obediance, however we can walk in obediance to the level of growth that we are at, "if you love me obey my commandments."


Holiness has nothing to do with it. We are only holy due to our acceptance of Jesus. Mother Tressa, for all her works would not be heaven but by the Grace of God. She on the other hand will have an abundance of riches in heaven I will never be able to achieve IMO.


I agree that holiness has nothing to do with 1 corinthians 3, That was what I said, but works have everything to do with it.
Holiness cannot be only down to our acceptance of Jesus (allthough that is the start of it) otherwise one could be holy while backsliding, there therfore must be more to holiness than an acceptance of Jesus.


Samwise, of all the Tolkien peoples was by far my favorite.


My favourite was Luthien, from the tale of Beren and Luthien, in the Silmarillion.

If I had to choose someone from the Lord Of The Rings then it would probably be Sam too, allthough Faramir would be a close second, as I really liked his charachter in the book, it`s far better than the film one.

Mark :)

[BustedFlat]

You are right we are in the flesh however, when we are born again Gods Spirit lives within us and rebirths our Spirit, hence the choice walk according to the Spirit or the flesh. I agree that we cannot walk as He did in perfect and complete obediance, however we can walk in obediance to the level of growth that we are at, "if you love me obey my commandments."

AMEN!!!



I agree that holiness has nothing to do with 1 corinthians 3, That was what I said, but works have everything to do with it.
Holiness cannot be only down to our acceptance of Jesus (allthough that is the start of it) otherwise one could be holy while backsliding, there therfore must be more to holiness than an acceptance of Jesus.


One is holy while the spirit abides in him. A backsliding Christian is still a Christian.

Jhn 15:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=5&version=kjv#5)I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing 6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=6&version=kjv#6)If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. 7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=7&version=kjv#7)If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=8&version=kjv#8)Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=9&version=kjv#9)¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=10&version=kjv#10)If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=11&version=kjv#11)These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. 12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=12&version=kjv#12)This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.



My favourite was Luthien, from the tale of Beren and Luthien, in the Silmarillion.

If I had to choose someone from the Lord Of The Rings then it would probably be Sam too, allthough Faramir would be a close second, as I really liked his charachter in the book, it`s far better than the film one.

Mark :)
There were some lovely tails in the Silmarillion, but The Hobbit is the book I most like to read.

Everything was better in the books!



God Bless

BustedFlat

[Cris413]

2 Peter 3:16 Look it up.
I find it interesting you note this scripture. Which does not answer Rosie's question...but have you actually read 2 Peter 3:16?

[MarkEvan]

One is holy while the spirit abides in him. A backsliding Christian is still a Christian.


I agree that we can only be holy due to the Spirit that resides within us, but is someone who is backsliding walking in holiness? (perhapse that is a better way of putting it, walking in holiness). Personally I would say no, since to walk in holiness is the same as walking in righteousness and light. So the question becomes one of, what happens to the person who is backsliding if we are told, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD," and "do you not know my brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved."


There were some lovely tails in the Silmarillion, but The Hobbit is the book I most like to read.

Everything was better in the books!



Allthough I like the Silmarillion, I do find it a little disjointed at points, and you are right the hobbit is an easy book to read it`s not so convoluted not to many plots to follow, that said I still think that the Lord Of The Rings is my favourite.

God Bless

Mark :)

[BustedFlat]

I agree that we can only be holy due to the Spirit that resides within us, but is someone who is backsliding walking in holiness? (perhapse that is a better way of putting it, walking in holiness). Personally I would say no, since to walk in holiness is the same as walking in righteousness and light. So the question becomes one of, what happens to the person who is backsliding if we are told, "persue peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD," and "do you not know my brothers that wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be decieved."



Allthough I like the Silmarillion, I do find it a little disjointed at points, and you are right the hobbit is an easy book to read it`s not so convoluted not to many plots to follow, that said I still think that the Lord Of The Rings is my favourite.

God Bless

Mark :)
Brother:


This will be my last words on this, as we both clearly believe in Christ Jesus we will have the whole Millennial Kingdom to discuss this and other points as we worship Him.


Inherit is not the same as enter. The only thing my salvation guarantees me is an entry in to the Kingdom. After that it is up to me to earn my inheritance (rewards).


As a whole The Lord of the Rings is a better work, but none of the three books are as enjoyable as The Hobbit. Also I was abel to share reading The Hobbit as a bed time story with my son and daughter well they were still young enough to do that sort of thing with dad.

I think the fact that The Silmarillion was put together and edited by Christopher and not written as a book made it difficult to read in parts. The fact I read it on an 18 hour plane ride from Montreal to Abidjan via Paris may have added to the problem.


God Bless


BustedFlat

[MarkEvan]

Brother:


This will be my last words on this, as we both clearly believe in Christ Jesus we will have the whole Millennial Kingdom to discuss this and other points as we worship Him.


Inherit is not the same as enter. The only thing my salvation guarantees me is an entry in to the Kingdom. After that it is up to me to earn my inheritance (rewards).


As a whole The Lord of the Rings is a better work, but none of the three books are as enjoyable as The Hobbit. Also I was abel to share reading The Hobbit as a bed time story with my son and daughter well they were still young enough to do that sort of thing with dad.

I think the fact that The Silmarillion was put together and edited by Christopher and not written as a book made it difficult to read in parts. The fact I read it on an 18 hour plane ride from Montreal to Abidjan via Paris may have added to the problem.


God Bless


BustedFlat


First let me say that I have enjoyed studying this with you, I know that you are a believer who takes love as the utmost importance and therefore allthough we may alter in beliefs in this small way we are agreed and together on the important things, the same I can also say of you Chris413 (if you are reading this).

As to the eternity together to discuss these things, I think that by then we will know the answer, as God Himself will have revealed it to us on the day of judgement, so there will be other things that we can discuss.

I will not go into what I believe as you already know, but I will exhort us to continue in faith working through love.


Mark :)


I can understand the special connection that you have with the hobbit, with reading it to your child, it must hold dear thoughts.

[cloud0729]

I hope this helps a little bit :)

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Therefore if you are a true born-again Christian you shouldn't sin ever again, I realized this a couple days ago and have truly confessed about how terribly wrong I have been, and now realize that the true way of happiness is following God's Ten Commandments and inviting Christ to take over my life.

God Bless! :prayer:

[andross77]

I hope this helps a little bit :)

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Therefore if you are a true born-again Christian you shouldn't sin ever again, I realized this a couple days ago and have truly confessed about how terribly wrong I have been, and now realize that the true way of happiness is following God's Ten Commandments and inviting Christ to take over my life.

God Bless! :prayer:

Cloud, i couldn't disagree with you more. Thanks for posting your opinion though. Our hearts are continually wicked all the time. No one has been sinless except Jesus Christ. And no one can just decide one day they are going to follow Jesus perfectly AND ACTUALLY DO IT. Otherwise, you wouldn't need Christ after you accepted his sacrifice on the cross.

I don't have the time to look up all the verses but you can't just take 2 verses out of the Bible like you did and form your theology around it. You must look at ALL of Scripture and what it says about the character of God and what it says about the character of man.

I spent many years thinking i had to be perfect to earn God's love and yet i kept failing and so i kept feeling horrible. I STILL think this way at times. But i'm quickly learning that every good deed i do, good thought i think or good word i say is b/c of Christ's spirit inside me and every bad deed i do, bad thought i think or bad word i say is because of my sinful nature (the old man) giving in to the temptations of satan and the lust of the flesh

Praise Jesus that he is our constant advocate at the throne of God. Please do not believe you can decide to follow Christ flawlessly from any point on forward to your death. If you do, you will encounter frustration, anxiety and despair that you have never imagined. You will not measure up. You cannot measure up.

God Bless.
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[cloud0729]

Sorry, I see that I should have gave a little better explanation of what I was talking about. You're absolutely right, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God", except Jesus Christ. We cannot overcome sin on our own, and that's why we have to surrender our life to Jesus so that he may change our hearts.

In Matthew 19:16-26, a man comes up to Jesus and asks him what he has to do to inherit eternal life. He told him what he had to do and told this rich man to go sell his things because he was very attached to his materialistic items. Then after the man walked away in sorrow, Jesus' disciples asked him how is it possible to be saved then because we tend to rely on material items instead of God. And Jesus responded saying, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

After someone comes to God and repents and invites Him to come into our hearts and change us, we become a new person. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

The "old man" that you refer to is the person we are before we are before we are changed. The main reason many people seem to fall into sin is because they rely on their selves to overcome it, instead of relying on God's Holy Spirit. Through the grace of God, we can overcome sin and walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. We also cannot expect God to completely get rid of temptation because then we couldn't show Him our love by following His commandments. He will never make you tempted enough to not handle it, so in essence when you sin it's because you wanted to. As previously written:
1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God Bless :prayer:

[Cris413]

First let me say that I have enjoyed studying this with you, I know that you are a believer who takes love as the utmost importance and therefore allthough we may alter in beliefs in this small way we are agreed and together on the important things, the same I can also say of you Chris413 (if you are reading this)..

Hi Mark,

Just a quick note to tell you again, brother, what a blessing you have been to me.

I have prayed and studied on this and even though my beliefs have not changed on the matter, I do agree with you that Pastor Chuck could have taught Hebrews 10:29 much more deeply than he did in that particular study.

As to the eternity together to discuss these things, I think that by then we will know the answer, as God Himself will have revealed it to us on the day of judgement, so there will be other things that we can discuss.
How wonderful will this be! Everyone together in perfect harmony in the presence of God! Where the joy of each heart is to worship and serve Him! (I'm thinking my singing voice might even be pleasant ;) )

I will exhort us to continue in faith working through love.

Mark :)


:amen:

[BustedFlat]

How wonderful will this be! Everyone together in perfect harmony in the presence of God! Where the joy of each heart is to worship and serve Him! (I'm thinking my singing voice might even be pleasant ;) )


:amen:
Amen!!!

[buck]

John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Once saved always saved, you can leave God and sin.
But if you repent your sins and ask for forgiveness, your back in buisness.
Gods love
Buck

[PeterAV]

:preach: Show me in the Pure Holy Bible where any single Christian Lost their salvation.
Ya can't,because it did not happen.
:preach:
Salvation is not grounded upon you.
The grounds for salvation and the seal is all of God.
*******
PeterAV

[MatthewR]

Can I jump in with a question?
Supposed you have been saved.
Now consider:
Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
And Mark 3:29 (NIV)
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
So, keeping OSAS in mind, can a saved person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit lose salvation?
I'm not sure myself. The verses speak of not being forgiven. Is losing salvation the same as not being forgiven?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (I'm a very new to Christianity), but I do struggle with things like OSAS.

[Cris413]

Can I jump in with a question?
Supposed you have been saved.
Now consider:
Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
And Mark 3:29 (NIV)
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
So, keeping OSAS in mind, can a saved person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit lose salvation?
I'm not sure myself. The verses speak of not being forgiven. Is losing salvation the same as not being forgiven?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (I'm a very new to Christianity), but I do struggle with things like OSAS.

I personally don't believe you can "lose" salvation. However, I do believe you can reject your salvation.

I won't go into detail, but I had a friend, who I considered to be an awesome believer. Tragedy struck his life. Unbearable tragedy and he with his lips and in his heart rejected God. He renounced God in his anger over his circumstance. This really frightened me, especially because my friend did not have long to live.

I can not say with 100% certainty that he lost his salvation, but my fear was that this was indeed the unforgivable sin.

I would also like to think, for my friends eternal soul, that he had renewed his faith before he finally died.

I do not know what happened after the last conversation we had as it was by phone separated by 1500 miles. He had made up his mind there was no God and he did not want to talk about it again.

I prayed and prayed for him. My heart is very heavy for him to this day but I will not know for sure what his eternal destination was until I get there.

Some would question whether he was saved at all. That his tragedy did not bend his knee but broke his back. My feeling is that a true believer will rely on God even more heavily during tragic times...not turn away completely. Only God truly knows the condition of our hearts.

God bless you and keep growing in the Word!

Cris

[PeterAV]

Can I jump in with a question?
Supposed you have been saved.
Now consider:
Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
And Mark 3:29 (NIV)
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
So, keeping OSAS in mind, can a saved person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit lose salvation?
I'm not sure myself. The verses speak of not being forgiven. Is losing salvation the same as not being forgiven?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (I'm a very new to Christianity), but I do struggle with things like OSAS.
*******
This is not possible,for the one doing the unpardonable sin is displaying their unbelief in the first place.
It is a permanent disposition against the working of the truth of God.
The scribes and Pharisees did what they did with knowledge.
Would any saved person say that Jesus did his miracles by the power of belzebub?
Don't think so.
So nether can a saved person commit this unpardonable sin of blashemy against the Holy Ghost..

[BustedFlat]

I know I said I had said all I was going to say on this, but I have been moved to respond to this.


Can I jump in with a question?



Always, it is the only way to grow.


Supposed you have been saved.
Now consider:
Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
And Mark 3:29 (NIV)
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
So, keeping OSAS in mind, can a saved person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit lose salvation?
I'm not sure myself. The verses speak of not being forgiven. Is losing salvation the same as not being forgiven?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (I'm a very new to Christianity), but I do struggle with things like OSAS.


*******
This is not possible,for the one doing the unpardonable sin is displaying their unbelief in the first place.
It is a permanent disposition against the working of the truth of God.
The scribes and Pharisees did what they did with knowledge.
Would any saved person say that Jesus did his miracles by the power of belzebub?
Don't think so.
So nether can a saved person commit this unpardonable sin of blashemy against the Holy Ghost..


I'm not sure that the first is a true statement PeterAV, it is very conceivable that some one as Cris413's friend was a true believer that was not equipped as Paul told the Ephesians to be in Eph 6:12-20. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=6&verse=12&version=kjv#12)
When the tribulations came, as they always will, Satan's words can weasel their way into the mind and lead us to reject what we know to be true. We also know that if we accept again that truth we are no longer guilty of the sin of rejection. My hope is that anyone that comes under that kind of spiritual attack while they are faced with some tragedy can be reached and my prayers go out for them.




The scribes and Pharisees had not committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost by saying what they did against Jesus. If it were the case then Peter would have bought it three times before the cock crowed. Matthew 12:32 gives him and them a reprieve:


Mat 12:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=32&version=kjv#32)And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.


What is the Holy Ghost?


Jhn 15:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=26&version=kjv#26)¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=27&version=kjv#27)And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


Jhn 16:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=16&verse=7&version=kjv#7)Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=16&verse=8&version=kjv#8)And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=16&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=16&verse=10&version=kjv#10)Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=16&verse=11&version=kjv#11)Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


It appears that the only sin that is unpardonable is to reject the gift given to us all from the Father, through his Son. No true believer can lose his salvation, To be forgiven we need only ask under the conditions laid out in the gospels ie: In the faith that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, confessing our sins.


Us rejecting it is the only way to miss out.


Pastor Chuck Smith has a lengthy commentary on this available on Blue Letter Bible here (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mat&chapter=12&verse=31&Comm=Comm/chuck_smith_c2000/Mat/Mat012.html#17&%7BChuck+Smith&&Select.x=37&Select.y=14#17).


MatthewR, Brother in Christ Jesus. This is kind of a long winded way to say that losing salvation and not being forgiven are two very different things. As you can tell by the length of the answer and the the length of this thread, it is not a very obvious thing, it is something believers struggle with. Welcome brother, drink deep of the word. Study. Be always joyous in Jesus.




God Bless


BustedFlat

[SavedByGrace4eva]

Can I jump in with a question?
Supposed you have been saved.
Now consider:
Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
And Mark 3:29 (NIV)
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
So, keeping OSAS in mind, can a saved person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit lose salvation?
I'm not sure myself. The verses speak of not being forgiven. Is losing salvation the same as not being forgiven?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (I'm a very new to Christianity), but I do struggle with things like OSAS.
What a good question.
Tell me Brother. Have you ever tried to blaspheme in this way? Surely you could not do it. Why? Because you *are* saved!
But consider for a moment that you could lose your salvation. Then don't you think the spilling of the precious blood of Jesus would be worth? It would be worthless would it not? Do you think that can be? It cannot!
You have nothing to fear, except perhaps your own doubts. You have not been saved for long. You have much to learn and it is only to be expected that some things may be hard to grasp. But you are in the best of places here, where you can ask your questions and get great answers.
But never forget that your are saved!

[IrishGuy070890]

From personal experience, i believe in the fact that you can lose your salvation, seeing as i think i lost mine. i was a very strong christian, but within the last year i have lost my faith, partly because i am angry with god, but mostly because i don't want to be grouped in with christians, because they are all judgemental jerks (or at least all the ones i know).

[Svt4Him]

From personal experience, i believe in the fact that you can lose your salvation, seeing as i think i lost mine. i was a very strong christian, but within the last year i have lost my faith, partly because i am angry with god, but mostly because i don't want to be grouped in with christians, because they are all judgemental jerks (or at least all the ones i know).


Oh the irony. :eek:

[MatthewR]

From personal experience, i believe in the fact that you can lose your salvation, seeing as i think i lost mine. i was a very strong christian, but within the last year i have lost my faith, partly because i am angry with god, but mostly because i don't want to be grouped in with christians, because they are all judgemental jerks (or at least all the ones i know).
Have faith in Christ, not christians.

[HiLaReE320]

If you have been truly saved and have repented of you sin, you cannot lose God's forgiveness. You cannot lose your salvation. NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Jesus said it best on the cross.. IT IS FINISHED. Once you accept His gift of life, He will never take it back.

For those that think you can lose your salvation, do you think Jesus' sacrifice was not enough and that we must earn our salvation? Is God not gracious enough???

How many sins is too many? Are we covered by the blood of Jesus, or are we not?

[MarkEvan]

If you have been truly saved and have repented of you sin, you cannot lose God's forgiveness. You cannot lose your salvation. NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Jesus said it best on the cross.. IT IS FINISHED. Once you accept His gift of life, He will never take it back.

For those that think you can lose your salvation, do you think Jesus' sacrifice was not enough and that we must earn our salvation? Is God not gracious enough???

How many sins is too many? Are we covered by the blood of Jesus, or are we not?




So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."


Matthew 18

This verse quite clearly says that if a believer does not forgive his brother from his heart neither will God forgive him.



For those that think you can lose your salvation, do you think Jesus' sacrifice was not enough and that we must earn our salvation? Is God not gracious enough???


God is clearly gracious enough, but I think people can fall back in love with the world.

Mark :)

[buck]

Once saved all ways saved.
The thing after being saved is repenting and asking for forgiveness

[PeterAV]

*******
This is not possible,for the one doing the unpardonable sin is displaying their unbelief in the first place.
It is a permanent disposition against the working of the truth of God.
The scribes and Pharisees did what they did with knowledge.
Would any saved person say that Jesus did his miracles by the power of belzebub?
Don't think so.
So nether can a saved person commit this unpardonable sin of blashemy against the Holy Ghost..
Good point!

[PeterAV]

From personal experience, i believe in the fact that you can lose your salvation, seeing as i think i lost mine. i was a very strong christian, but within the last year i have lost my faith, partly because i am angry with god, but mostly because i don't want to be grouped in with christians, because they are all judgemental jerks (or at least all the ones i know).
quotes from Ribbers,
From personal experience, i believe in the fact that you can lose your salvation, seeing as i think i lost mine. i was a very strong Christian, but within the last year i have lost my faith, partly because i am angry with god, but mostly because i don't want to be grouped in with Christians, because they are all judgemental jerks (or at least all the ones i know).
And you sound like the consumat gentleman yerself.
Let him that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Only the LORD knoweth them that are his.
We are to go by the fruit of a person's life.
Plus there are many signs in the Holy Bible that can point us to the truth,simply because
Thy word is truth.
I trust God's word,that he states that I am secure in him.

[ANM29]

There is no such thing as losing your salvation. That is a lie and trick of the enemy to keep God's people in bondage to something Christ died to free us from.

The bible is clear that nothing and nobody can separate us from the Love of God. Once you are his, you are his. GOd said he has adopted you...You are adopted into the family of God. There is nothing YOU can do to take that away. You may fall down, You may stumble, You may even walk away but you can't stay away if you are his. He will draw you back unto himself eventually.

A lot of people get saved, but they don't get filled with the Holy Spirit until later a lot of times. So, until then they tend to stumble A LOT or even backslide a lot in that stage..this can go on for years actually. Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you then are on another level with God. That does not mean you will not sin, but you are on another level. You have to experience it to know exactly what I mean..

It is not about whether or not you ever sin after your saved, you will sin and Jesus paid one big price to take care of your sins.

A real follower of Christ once they have been born-again and filled with the spirit can not be taken out of the hands of God by yourself or anything or anyone else. TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!! A real believer can't go out sinning without conviction of it, the Holy Spirit at some point will begin to deal with you about your sins and you will begin to change...It is all a process. It is a growth process...Everyone will grow at different stages. BUT, you will grow.

[MarkEvan]

A real follower of Christ once they have been born-again and filled with the spirit can not be taken out of the hands of God by yourself or anything or anyone else. TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE!! A real believer can't go out sinning without conviction of it, the Holy Spirit at some point will begin to deal with you about your sins and you will begin to change...It is all a process. It is a growth process...Everyone will grow at different stages. BUT, you will grow.


Does God force you to change or is it your own choice? What if you don`t change....the wages of sin is death after all?

Mark :)

[ANM29]

Does God force you to change or is it your own choice? What if you don`t change....the wages of sin is death after all?

Mark :)

It is impossible to know the Lord and be saved and not change, it is impossible.

The Lord is in the business of changing lives. If you don't change, you were never saved in the first place.

I cant' say when you will exactly STOP a certain behavior, but your heart will be NEW and things began to change inside first and then it just began to see change in your behaviors that are ungodly..Some people are delivered of certain things instantly, other things take time..But, you will be in the process of growth always....

[Simon_Templar]

What is everyone's thoughts on this? A friend and I were discussing this last night. We both think you can lose your salvation, but we differed on what that line was. I am having a bit of a sin issue right now that I can't seem to beat, but I don't think I have lost my salvation. She seemed to think that since in this one area I was rebelling (or whatever you want to call it), that I have walked away from God. I guess you could say we were debating where the line was drawn. What do you all think? I'd like to look into it a little farther. I just think "losing salvation" is more when you completely turn your back on God and anything to do with Him, and walk away from everything. I don't think that because I am having a really difficult time that I'm not saved. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just wanted to hear some other opinions on it.
Yes you can 'lose' your salvation. However its not something that happens every time you do something wrong. You don't become unsaved every time you sin, and then need to be resaved etc.

This issue is difficult to understand partially because the western chruch has limited its concept of man's fallen state, and what redemption is.

We tend to think of falling from grace, and redemption as simply a matter of law. We fall because we break the law, and we are redeemed by having the penalty of the law satisfied. That is partially true, but its not the complete picture.

Sin and death came before the law. Before ever there was a law, sin