Gift of the spirit, with or without keeping the law. [Archive]

Cribstyl

7th March 2007, 11:50 AM

The Bible makes it clear that the Spirit is given to those how obey God. Obedience and the gift of the spirit goes hand in hand.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Funny you should say that, because the Jews who were given the Law rejected Jesus Christ, they are still under the Law to this day.
If they recieved the Spirit would they not have accepted Jesus and those He sends?

The fact is obediance is "to Jesus" and the gift of the spirit goes hand in hand.
Observing the Laws given through Moses is the hard way that no man has ever kept but Jesus. That's why God has given us a new understand that fulfills His righteous standards. These new standard excedes the letter of the Laws given to Moses.

To argue that the new covenant is the old covenant tatood on your heart is not according to scriptures. These and other commentary of isolated text reenforce a false doctrine.

Back to the OP

Is it possible to have spiritual gifts, such as the spirit of discernment, gift of tongues, gift of prophesy... without having to keep the Law of God? Or the two aren't even related?

This is a question for our charismatic and mainstream christian friends.
The answers is No because God's law goes beyond the ten commandments. The 10.com does not command us to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. The ten commandment does not teach us that getting angry with our brother is equated to murder, or aduity is just to lust. The commandments Christ gave us fulfilled the Law of Moses, which are called THE LAW.

The fact is God word contain His law. Christ built His church, etablish His preisthood, leadership, and commandments.

We need to preach and teach what the Apostles taught. Repent,Believe on JesusChrist, Baptize and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

In Peace
CRIB

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 12:11 PM

The only prerequisite is being a Christian.

Also there is no such thing as "spirit of discernment", it is referred to as discerning of spirits.

1 Corinthians 12 says "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28638b)] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

The manifestations of the Spirit are given to each one.

Spirit of discernment is a spiritual gift to discern true doctrines from errors. Jesus talked about it.

So you are saying one doesn't have to keep the law or even have the desire to keep the law to be given the spirit?

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 12:19 PM

Funny you should say that, because the Jews who were given the Law rejected Jesus Christ, they are still under the Law to this day.
If they recieved the Spirit would they not have accepted Jesus and those He sends?

The fact is obediance is "to Jesus" and the gift of the spirit goes hand in hand.
Observing the Laws given through Moses is the hard way that no man has ever kept but Jesus. That's why God has given us a new understand that fulfills His righteous standards. These new standard excedes the letter of the Laws given to Moses.

To argue that the new covenant is the old covenant tatood on your heart is not according to scriptures. These and other commentary of isolated text reenforce a false doctrine.

Back to the OP

The answers is No because God's law goes beyond the ten commandments. The 10.com does not command us to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. The ten commandment does not teach us that getting angry with our brother is equated to murder, or aduity is just to lust. The commandments Christ gave us fulfilled the Law of Moses, which are called THE LAW.

The fact is God word contain His law. Christ built His church, etablish His preisthood, leadership, and commandments.

We need to preach and teach what the Apostles taught. Repent,Believe on JesusChrist, Baptize and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

In Peace
CRIB
AMEN!:clap: Thank you for that!

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 12:22 PM

What about the following verses.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And the spirit of discernment

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 12:28 PM

But how can one who is guilty of breaking the ten commandments be giving the Spirit? Are we made perfect by the flesh? Do we serve God out of slavish fear or do we serve out of loving thanks for what He has already done for us?

AT:)

Either way the operative word here is serve which according to the Bible includes obedience to God's laws. Obedience won't by itself save us, it never could, however disobedience will kill us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

7th March 2007, 12:47 PM

What about the following verses.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What is it that we are to obey to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 2 says "38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

We obey Him by coming to Jesus and not by keeping the law.

And the spirit of discernment

Where do you get "spirit of discernment"? I see discerning of spirits in the Bible, but no spirit of discernment.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I think people here don't question the doctrines of Jesus being from God.

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 12:51 PM

Funny you should say that, because the Jews who were given the Law rejected Jesus Christ, they are still under the Law to this day.
If they recieved the Spirit would they not have accepted Jesus and those He sends?

If they are under the law so are we because Christ died for all men whether they accept Him or not. Not all Jews rejected Christ. All of the apostles were Jews and many many thousands of the initial church members were Jews.

The fact is obediance is "to Jesus" and the gift of the spirit goes hand in hand.
Observing the Laws given through Moses is the hard way that no man has ever kept but Jesus. That's why God has given us a new understand that fulfills His righteous standards. These new standard excedes the letter of the Laws given to Moses.

Exactly, the spirit of the law is a lot more stingent than the ten commandments but you also need to remember that it was Jesus Christ who gave Moses the ten commandments on Mt. Sinai. So when you say obedience is to Jesus who is God then to obey God's laws is to honor and obey His ten commandments in the spiritual sense.

To argue that the new covenant is the old covenant tatood on your heart is not according to scriptures. These and other commentary of isolated text reenforce a false doctrine.

Every single one of the ten commandments are sustained by the writings found in the new testament.

The answers is No because God's law goes beyond the ten commandments. The 10.com does not command us to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

What would you be repenting of? Sin? What is sin? 1 John 3:4 says its the transgression of God's laws.

The ten commandment does not teach us that getting angry with our brother is equated to murder, or aduity is just to lust. The commandments Christ gave us fulfilled the Law of Moses, which are called THE LAW.

When you see the word "the law" it can be either the law of Moses or the ten commandment law of God. You have to read the context to find out which one is being referred to. For instance in Col 2:14 the laws that are said to be nailed to the cross were said to be "against" the people and involved meat and drink offerings. Clearly , this is not the ten commandments which were never said to be against the people or involved meat or drink offerings. Also, the ten commandment law of God was never done away with or fulfilled by what Christ did on the cross. Nothing about His death and resurrection makes it unecessary for us to be devoted to our creator ( which is the first 4 commandments ) and nothing in His death and resurrection makes it unecessary for us to kind to our fellow man, ( the last 6 commandments ). However , we clearly see the fulfillment of the ceremonial law in the death and resurrection of Christ.

The fact is God word contain His law. Christ built His church, etablish His preisthood, leadership, and commandments.

We need to preach and teach what the Apostles taught. Repent,Believe on JesusChrist, Baptize and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

In Peace
CRIB

You bet and His apostles taught that we don't sin so that grace may abound or we don't make void the law , we establish the law.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 12:51 PM

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 12:56 PM

The only way we can "do" His will, is for the Holy Spirit to be living in us. Obedience comes as a result of the Spirit.

So are you saying now that obedience to God's laws is necessary?

Eila

7th March 2007, 12:58 PM

Spirit of discernment is a spiritual gift to discern true doctrines from errors. Jesus talked about it.

Discerning from true spirits and false spirits is not the same as spirit of discernment. A function of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. However you are using the phrase backwards. Is there a version that uses "spirit of discernment" instead of discerning of spirits? Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the spirit that discerns or that you receive an additional spirit that discerns?

So you are saying one doesn't have to keep the law or even have the desire to keep the law to be given the spirit?

Yes, if you are referring to the law of Moses. I do believe one has to be born again to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Adventtruth

7th March 2007, 01:00 PM

Either way the operative word here is serve which according to the Bible includes obedience to God's laws. Obedience won't by itself save us, it never could, however disobedience will kill us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

How can you say that Jim! Serving in slavish fear is bondage!

Rom 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘‘Abba, Father.”

Justified believers don't obey by the law to put to death the deeds of the flesh...we are lead by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

To obey by the law is slavish fear and not of the Spirit but of bondage...and that will kill you!

AT:)

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Eila

7th March 2007, 01:13 PM

What would you be repenting of? Sin? What is sin? 1 John 3:4 says its the transgression of God's laws.

1 John 3 says sin is lawlessness and then goes on to describe the commandments as believing in Jesus and loving one another.

The Bible says that whatever is not of faith is sin. If you do not have faith that Jesus saved you are you sinning? Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. I think many people struggle with the issue of trusting in what Jesus already did for them because it takes faith. It is much easier to trust in your own ability to keep a law or confess everything. Faith is a title deed. We receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit. Do you have faith that He saved you or is your faith in your own works? Do you have assurance? The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please Him. Are you waiting to see perfection in your life before you believe that He saved you? Faith is the evidence of things not seen. If you wait to see with your eyes then it is not of faith. Faith is believing in something you cannot see. The Bible says we are a new creation in Christ Jesus. Faith says that even though we don't see a new creation we have the assurance that what God said is true. Believing that Jesus saves is not faith. Believing that Jesus saved you is.

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 01:27 PM

If they are under the law so are we because Christ died for all men whether they accept Him or not. Not all Jews rejected Christ. All of the apostles were Jews and many many thousands of the initial church members were Jews.

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God." Gal. 4:4-7
Exactly, the spirit of the law is a lot more stingent than the ten commandments but you also need to remember that it was Jesus Christ who gave Moses the ten commandments on Mt. Sinai. So when you say obedience is to Jesus who is God then to obey God's laws is to honor and obey His ten commandments in the spiritual sense.
And that means...?

Every single one of the ten commandments are sustained by the writings found in the new testament.
Still returning to the old conenant/10 commandments.

What would you be repenting of? Sin? What is sin? 1 John 3:4 says its the transgression of God's laws.
Extremely small definition of sin.

When you see the word "the law" it can be either the law of Moses or the ten commandment law of God.
One in the same! The pentateuch is the law of God, and the law of Moses. They are the same thing. God commanded it all! That's why it's called the LAW, including the 10 commandments, which were PART of the 613!

You have to read the context to find out which one is being referred to. For instance in Col 2:14 the laws that are said to be nailed to the cross were said to be "against" the people and involved meat and drink offerings.
SDA theology in order to lift up the Sabbath.

Clearly , this is not the ten commandments which were never said to be against the people or involved meat or drink offerings.
Tell that to the guy who was stoned for gathering wood on the Sabbath!

Also, the ten commandment law of God was never done away with or fulfilled by what Christ did on the cross.
So you claim that Jesus DIDN'T do what he said he would do! He came, not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it! (Matt 5) I think I'll believe Jesus!

Nothing about His death and resurrection makes it unecessary for us to be devoted to our creator ( which is the first 4 commandments ) and nothing in His death and resurrection makes it unecessary for us to kind to our fellow man, ( the last 6 commandments ). However , we clearly see the fulfillment of the ceremonial law in the death and resurrection of Christ.
The Bible does NOT make such distinctions, and neither will I. Believers are DEVOTED to their creator because HIS Spirit lives in them.

You bet and His apostles taught that we don't sin so that grace may abound or we don't make void the law , we establish the law.
Don't pull your ONE verse out of it's context. Read the WHOLE chapter. You are WAY out of context. You're so focussed on the law that you miss the point. The law condemns. Salvation comes through faith! Because of faith we can understand why God dealt with Israel the way he did (law).

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 01:35 PM

So are you saying now that obedience to God's laws is necessary?
Don't twist my words. I'm saying that it's necessary for us to have the HOLY SPIRIT in order for the law to be fulfilled in us (rather than us 'working' for salvation).

"The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit." Rom 8:3, 4

By the sound of your posts, you are responsible for 'keeping' the law. But for believers in Christ the law has been fulfilled 'FOR US' and the Spirit lives IN us. It's a huge difference. One involves FAITH and the other involves 'trusting' in your own works.

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 02:01 PM

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 02:09 PM

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 02:19 PM

I find that interesting that some of you keep saying the 10 commandments are from the old covenant, while the bible says Abraham was saved by grace.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

And in effect you render God deals with His followers differently after Christ's death. The bible says God 'change not' and 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever'.

So where is this dispensationalism you speak of in the bible? Any examples?

OK. So how would you redefine these passages to fit your paradigm?
Deut 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.Deut 9:9 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. Deut 9:11 "It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.1 Kings 8:21 "There I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."1 Kings 8:9 "There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt."Hebrews 9:4 ...having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;There's more, but I think this at least establishes that the 10 Commandments/Tablets of Stone were the VERY HEART of the Old Covenant.

Breaking one of the 10 was equated with breaking the covenant! That would be difficult if they were not part of the covenant as you have claimed.

Deut 29:25, 26 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them. Deut 31:16 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.Judges 2:19, 20 But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their stubborn ways. So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice,Joshua 23:16 "When you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you."2 Kings 17:15, 16 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.Joshua 7:10, 11 The LORD said to Joshua, "Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions.The Bible CLEARLY shows that the 10 Commandments were THE COVENANT, the very heart of it, that God made with Israel, and it further shows that breaking one of the 10 Commandments was equivalent of breaking the Covenant (as demonstrated by Israel breaking numbers 1, 2, 8, & 10)!

Are you still going to stick to the story that the 10 were not part of the old covenant?

Adventtruth

7th March 2007, 02:28 PM

quote]I find that interesting that some of you keep saying the 10 commandments are from the old covenant, while the bible says Abraham was saved by grace.

True.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Well we know that the charge and commanments and statues where not the letter of the law on stone. How?

Galatians 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, [Abraham] cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Becasue the letter on stone was 430 years after the promise to Abraham.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

He believed by faith alone, just as the bible tells us.

And in effect you render God deals with His followers differently after Christ's death. The bible says God 'change not' and 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever'.

No I did not say that. In a nut shell I said that its a covanant of works or a covanant of grace and promise. this has always been. From Adam on down to our time today.

So where is this dispensationalism you speak of in the bible? Any examples?

I don't have examples of DISPENSATION THEOLOGY. I dont believe in it, although I understand it.

I subscribe to New Coanant Theology...(Oh and by the way, Adventism to some extent, teaches a form of Covanant theology, which is taken from the Westmensiter Confession. They do share some of the ideals about Adam and all of humanity in a probationary period, and Adam keeping the sabbath day, but New Covanant theology differs in that regard.)

If you want to understand how God deals with humanity from a covanant perspective, study Covanant and New Covanant Theology. All the covanants are in your bible.

AT:)

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 02:38 PM

Also the bible seems to say the obedience is the keeping the law, not committing sin.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

The bible seems to say Christ's obedience was the fulfillment of the Law: by committing no sins. And leaving an example for us. Example of what? To learn obedient like He did and have victory over sin with His help.
You should have quoted further:

"He personally carried away our sins in his own body on the cross so we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. You have been healed by his wounds! Once you were wandering like lost sheep. But now you have turned to your Shepherd, the Guardian of your souls." v.24, 25

You can't follow those footsteps. You can't carry your sins, let alone the sins of the world. You can't heal others by your own wounds. The Shepherd guards our souls. There's NO BETTER guarantee!

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 03:20 PM

To obey by the law is slavish fear and not of the Spirit but of bondage...and that will kill you!

AT:)

What a perverted way of looking at obedience. Christ says if you love me keep my commandments. Correct obedience is always about love and not to be saved. Christ covers us with His righteousness and grace after confession and repentence. It is by His power we keep the law not of our own works lest we should boast. However, we must submit daily to His will and die to sin. Daily praying that He will effect the work of sanctification in us. You see the difference between us in my opinion is you don't care if you sin or not because you think it doesn't matter since you are saved. I care if I sin or not because I believe what the Bible says the wages of it is and I know I have a choice to make for life or death. I also choose to pray for deliverance from sin and tempation as the Lord told us to do in the Lord's prayer. Have you ever considered why that is part of the Lord's prayer? If what you are saying is true He should have said "Don't worry about temptation or evil for I have overcome that and you can't stop sinning anyway, " but that's not the way He put it was it? :)

God Bless
Jim Larmore

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 03:41 PM

How can you say that Jim! Serving in slavish fear is bondage!

Rom 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘‘Abba, Father.”

Justified believers don't obey by the law to put to death the deeds of the flesh...we are lead by the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

To obey by the law is slavish fear and not of the Spirit but of bondage...and that will kill you!

AT:)

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So it's a matter of love for God, not bondage.

Other verses also say the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

So how can you have one without the other?

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 04:14 PM

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God." Gal. 4:4-7

Not one word here says the law is gone or done away with.

One in the same! The pentateuch is the law of God, and the law of Moses. They are the same thing. God commanded it all! That's why it's called the LAW, including the 10 commandments, which were PART of the 613!

Tell me Freeindeed. If they were the same why was one written by the finger of God and the other by the hand of Moses? One was called the hand writting of ordinances, or the law of Moses Luke 2:22, 1 Cor 9:9 the other was called the law of the Lord Isa 5:24. One was placed inside the ark ( Ex 40:20) just below the mercy seat the other was placed outside of the ark ( Deut 31:26) . One points out what sin is Rom 3:20, 7:7, the other was added because of sin Gal 3:19. God's law is spiritual, Mose's law is carnal Heb 7:16. God's law is eternal , Mose's law was temporary Col 2:14, Heb 8:13.

If they were the same why does one have ceremonial requirments while the other does not? No aspect of the ten were fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

7th March 2007, 04:18 PM

If they were the same why does one have ceremonial requirments while the other does not? No aspect of the ten were fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ.

The 10 commandments do contain a ceremony - a weekly ceremony. More later...

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 04:23 PM

Don't twist my words. I'm saying that it's necessary for us to have the HOLY SPIRIT in order for the law to be fulfilled in us (rather than us 'working' for salvation).

No you said we have to have the spirit to be obedient. Your twisting your own words.

"The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit." Rom 8:3, 4

The law never could save anyone, not at any time. Salvation has always been about faith and grace. The only thing that has changed is the sacrifice for our sins that has fulfilled the ceremonial law. If Abraham was counted as being righteous because of being obedient to God's laws before Christ came to give grace then the Bible is lying according to your theory because according to you no one has ever kept the law.

By the sound of your posts, you are responsible for 'keeping' the law. But for believers in Christ the law has been fulfilled 'FOR US' and the Spirit lives IN us. It's a huge difference. One involves FAITH and the other involves 'trusting' in your own works.

It's the Bible that tellls me that I am responsible to make a choice to accept the blood of Christ for my salvation. However, you want to throw that truth out of the window and accept a false teaching that our free will is inconsequential and that the law is no longer in effect so we can sin with impunity. You always make a big deal out of the Sabbath but you wouldn't be doing that if you weren't constantly breaking it and practicing sin by violating a few of the others as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 04:31 PM

The 10 commandments do contain a ceremony - a weekly ceremony. More later...

There is absolutely nothing ceremonial about the 4th commandment. Explain what you mean.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Adventtruth

7th March 2007, 04:33 PM

[quote=Jimlarmore;32516569]What a perverted way of looking at obedience. Christ says if you love me keep my commandments.

Lets look at what Christ said in context that the matter can be solved.

John 14:15 (KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 (KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:31 (KJV) But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 15:10 (KJV) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 (KJV) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 (KJV) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Correct obedience is always about love and not to be saved.

Correctly spoken Jim, so why do you confuse loving one another with performing the commandments? Justified sinners don't perform commndments as if they are in a slavish relationship with God? Jesus said we are nolonger servants but friends. He asks or commands love that we can establish the law not perform the law.

It is by His power we keep the law not of our own works lest we should boast.

Romans 7:4 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I see where we are dead to the law, but I can't find the passage that says we are to be back up under the law. If you could kindly point to the passage that says Christ made us die to the law through His body that we can go back under the law just to be obedient, I would believe you, but I can't find it...can you find it for us that we can believe it?

You see the difference between us in my opinion is you don't care if you sin or not because you think it doesn't matter since you are saved.

Well I'm sorry if you come to that conclussion Jim. For the record, and I think I can speak for the other justified believers on this thread...Justified believers put to death the sins of the flesh through the Spirit...you see...we wage war against the sinful pleasures that the sin nature desires. So for the record, I am telling you that we, us ,all Justified belivers in tis section, who understand the correct position of the law in the life of justified sinners. wage war on the sins of the flesh, not by following after the ten words, but by the Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

You aswell!:wave:

AT:)

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 04:38 PM

No you said we have to have the spirit to be obedient. Your twisting your own words.

The law never could save anyone, not at any time. Salvation has always been about faith and grace. The only thing that has changed is the sacrifice for our sins that has fulfilled the ceremonial law. If Abraham was counted as being righteous because of being obedient to God's laws before Christ came to give grace then the Bible is lying according to your theory because according to you no one has ever kept the law.

It's the Bible that tellls me that I am responsible to make a choice to accept the blood of Christ for my salvation. However, you want to throw that truth out of the window and accept a false teaching that our free will is inconsequential and that the law is no longer in effect so we can sin with impunity. You always make a big deal out of the Sabbath but you wouldn't be doing that if you weren't constantly breaking it and practicing sin by violating a few of the others as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Jim, you're preaching righteousness by your works, and, BTW, I would be willing to bet that you're not keeping the Sabbath, but rather some aberrant form with 'pick-and-choose' provisions to justify they way you 'observe' the sign of the old covenant.

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 04:45 PM

There is absolutely nothing ceremonial about the 4th commandment. Explain what you mean.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Can you demonstrate the morality of the weekly part of the Jewish ceremonial package (every 7th day Sabbath, 7 annual Sabbaths, every 7th year Sabbatical, and 7 x 7 years or Jubilee). Why do you only pluck the weekly Jewish Sabbath. Why do you not keep it all.

Lev. 23 clearly lists the weekly Sabbath as a ceremony.

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit does not convict almost all Christians of the Jewish Sabbath? He leads them not to commit immoral acts, but he doesn't convict them of the sign of the old covenant. As an SDA who continually focusses on the law and the Sabbath and your own works, would you deny that they have the Holy Spirit?

Cribstyl

7th March 2007, 04:48 PM

If they are under the law so are we because Christ died for all men whether they accept Him or not. Not all Jews rejected Christ. All of the apostles were Jews and many many thousands of the initial church members were Jews.

For cryingoutloud my good man, they rejected, persecuted and crucified The Lord and his apostles,... If they're were blinded, we should be blind too??? Idont think so.:doh:

What is taught to Gentiles?
Sheeze, We know not 100% rejected Him, but who should we quote? you or text that say:Jhn 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html#11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

I can see how isolated text and the answers to your questions are not what the word of God teaches. You make reasoned statements that are not found line upon line.

Exactly, the spirit of the law is a lot more stingent than the ten commandments but you also need to remember that it was Jesus Christ who gave Moses the ten commandments on Mt. Sinai. So when you say obedience is to Jesus who is God then to obey God's laws is to honor and obey His ten commandments in the spiritual sense.

While you reason that the 10.com is still on the table.
Christ made sure we knew what laws He was fulfilling when He said; Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Every single one of the ten commandments are sustained by the writings found in the new testament.

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........ The truth is, what did Christ and His apostles preach, teach and command to Gentile Christian? We can read to learn that these are written to let us know what you've heard from them of old, meaning the prophets?

What would you be repenting of? Sin? What is sin? 1 John 3:4 says its the transgression of God's laws.

Yes, After the law is given, sin is breaking the law... In Rom 5 Paul teaches that sin was in the world before the law was given.

Your agenda and doctrines are no secret to me. And I'm aware that you're a pastor.

Good luck with that:doh:

Peace

CRIB

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 04:52 PM

Jim, you're preaching righteousness by your works, and, BTW, I would be willing to bet that you're not keeping the Sabbath, but rather some aberrant form with 'pick-and-choose' provisions to justify they way you 'observe' the sign of the old covenant.

I'm not preaching anything, I have only given the truth in the Bible here. I keep the Sabbath the way Christ kept it. You see Christ was in trouble all the time for not keeping the Sabbath correctly when He was here. He made it clear that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. You are falsely accusing me of trying to embrace some kind of pharseeical way of keeping the Sabbath. That is just not correct.

BTW, if I am preaching righteouness by works here even though I have always said it is by the works of Christ that the law is kept to start with. Then you are preaching righteousness by sin and corruption because you are throwing out the very law that makes grace even necessary to begin with. You remain in sin and are willfully and deliberately spreading false teachings. Grace and the law have always been intimately tied together. Without one the other is no longer needed or necessary.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 04:56 PM

Jesus either satisfied the requirements of the law for us or he didn't. If he didn't then righteousness by faith in Jesus for salvation is out the window.

Jesus either ended or fulfilled the law just like he said he would, or he didn't. If he didn't then there is NO hope for anyone because nobody has ever kept Israel's law and nobody ever will. Most of the world was never even given Israel's law in the first place. And yet you keep blasting people with the law that condemns rather than lifting up Jesus who redeemed us from it. Those who seek to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ and have fallen from grace. If you were keeping it then you MIGHT be able to try and judge the rest of us. But you can't judge us (and you're not keeping it) because we have been justified by the atoning blood of Christ. There is no judgment or condemnation for those he has justified. And you calling us back to the law that condemns is not a trump card on the Holy Spirit, or God HIMSELF living in the believer.

Sorry Jim. Your words don't ring true. We will not go back under the death trap of the law (the law was not the problem, we were) again when we have the Spirit who brings life in us! All praise, honor, and glory goes to Jesus, for he alone is worthy and faithful to keep his promises.

Adventtruth

7th March 2007, 04:59 PM

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So it's a matter of love for God, not bondage.

Other verses also say the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

So how can you have one without the other?

Hi ontheDl...I had this very conversation with another brother on another board through private email just a few days ago.

The bible says the law is holy, righteous, and Good.

Romans 7:12 (KJV) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The problem is not the law...the problem is us!

Romans 7:14 (KJV) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We have this principle in us...SIN...not sins, but SIN. The sins flow from the SIN Nature.

This SIN is the real problem...all humans before they do anything, are missing the mark, or bullseye, or target with God. The only way to hit the target is by being in Christ. Its not by doing law, we can never do it by law keeping because the law condemns us...being unable to hit the mark or bullseye, or target. So God gave us a back door...through the one who can walk through the front door.

Lets say we walk through the front door of the house of Gods Law. In the first room to the left we see the room of do not lie. Well we can't go in that room because we have already lied. So we go to the second room of do not steal, well we broke that one too. So we pass that one and go to the next... it says do not lust, we failed at that one. You get the point?

So I must go in the arms of the one who could walk through the front door of the house of Gods law...Jesus, it is him who can get me through the house of Gods law. Only I must trust that he can do it all by Him self. When we trust Him by faith alone, I grow in HIs grace and love for me, and I begin to extend that same love to others. When we extend grace to other undeserving believers, we then establish every thing He did by His love for us., thus we establish the law...through love

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

So establishing the law and doing the law is two differnt things.

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

AT:)

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 05:10 PM

Can you demonstrate the morality of the weekly part of the Jewish ceremonial package (every 7th day Sabbath, 7 annual Sabbaths, every 7th year Sabbatical, and 7 x 7 years or Jubilee). Why do you only pluck the weekly Jewish Sabbath. Why do you not keep it all.

I didn't choose just the Sabbath initially but it seems to be the one that you like to pick on. The morality of the Sabbath has to do with obeying the commandments of the creator. If you intentionally disobey God then you are being immoral to the highest degree. When God established the Sabbath before there even was a morality problem in the garden of eden He fully expected the Sabbath to be observed as a time set aside for Holy consecrated communion with the Lord. Now you want to throw it out the window. What a travesty.

Lev. 23 clearly lists the weekly Sabbath as a ceremony.

No it doesn't , Lev 23 is about feasts and holy convocation sabbath days.. Verse 3 briefly alludes to the 7th day Sabbath but the rest of this chapter is very specifically speaking of ceremonial sabbaths that come on certain days of the month and not the 7th day Sabbath only.

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit does not convict almost all Christians of the Jewish Sabbath? He leads them not to commit immoral acts, but he doesn't convict them of the sign of the old covenant. As an SDA who continually focusses on the law and the Sabbath and your own works, would you deny that they have the Holy Spirit?

I will not judge anyone in that regard that is for God to do but in answer to your question we only need to go to the book of Rev 13:3 to find the Bible saying this " All the world wondered after the beast." That word wonder in the greek means to blindly follow. Many in the Christian community have followed a tradition all of their lives and have no real grasp of the real truth concerning the law and the Sabbath. They are sold a bill of goods by those like you who are teaching a false teaching.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 05:11 PM

I'm not preaching anything, I have only given the truth in the Bible here. I keep the Sabbath the way Christ kept it. You see Christ was in trouble all the time for not keeping the Sabbath correctly when He was here. He made it clear that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. You are falsely accusing me of trying to embrace some kind of pharseeical way of keeping the Sabbath. That is just not correct.
Oh, you're preaching a lot, and it all has to do with your 'good' works. He made it clear that he had authority over the Sabbath. That he was greater than it, greater than the temple, and that he was the Son of God. Those who lift up the law didn't like that so they were always trying to kill him.

BTW, if I am preaching righteouness by works here even though I have always said it is by the works of Christ that the law is kept to start with.
Even here you lift up the law, and you give NO credit to Jesus for having fulfilled its requirments for all who believe in him.

Then you are preaching righteousness by sin and corruption because you are throwing out the very law that makes grace even necessary to begin with.
Do you not believe there is law, morality, righteousness, and grace outside of the elementary 10 commandments given as a covenant to Israel?

Ever read the sermon on the mount? Have you ever studied the commands and teachings of Christ?

I preach righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ alone. We don't have any, but he credits believers with his own righteousness. He conquered sin and his Spirit lives in us. It's not a good idea to accuse the Spirit of 'righteousness by sin and corruption' (a complete oxymoron).

You remain in sin and are willfully and deliberately spreading false teachings. Grace and the law have always been intimately tied together. Without one the other is no longer needed or necessary.
"And we who are born of the Holy Spirit are persecuted by those who want us to keep the law, just as Isaac, the child of promise, was persecuted by Ishmael, the son of the slave-wife. But what do the Scriptures say about that? 'Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the family inheritance with the free woman's son.' So dear friends, we are not children of the slave woman, obligated to the law. We are children of the free woman, acceptable to God because of our faith." Gal 4:28-31
Accuse those with the Spirit of God living in them all you want. It is in vain, for we already stand before God blameless because of the righteousness imputed to us by Jesus Christ. God doesn't condemn us, who are you to do it?

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 05:23 PM

Jesus either satisfied the requirements of the law for us or he didn't. If he didn't then righteousness by faith in Jesus for salvation is out the window.

No it's not, what is not right is your way of looking at the law and grace. Your not using logic, your spouting a bunch of verses that you are trying to make say the law is gone or no longer in effect. Grace is only necessary if there is a law in existence period, no discussion, no debate , it's that straight forward.

Jesus either ended or fulfilled the law just like he said he would, or he didn't.

The complete fulfillment was accomplised in that Christ died for mine and your sins but that does not mean it's gone or done away with.

Sorry Jim. Your words don't ring true. We will not go back under the death trap of the law again when we have the Spirit who brings life in us! All praise, honor, and glory goes to Jesus, for he alone is worthy and faithful to keep his promises.

If you truely praised the Lord you wouldn't be about putting down His Holy law and teaching it's ok to break it with impunity. If my words don't ring true it's because your ears are now like the apostle said concerning itching ears in 2 Tim 4:3.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

7th March 2007, 05:33 PM

Jim,

Do you need the law in order to know that murder is wrong? Is the law what you need in order to keep from sinning?

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 05:42 PM

For cryingoutloud my good man, they rejected, persecuted and crucified The Lord and his apostles,... If they're were blinded, we should be blind too??? Idont think so.:doh:

I didn't say that. Where did you get that from. What I said is if they are under the law so are we.

I can see how isolated text and the answers to your questions are not what the word of God teaches. You make reasoned statements that are not found line upon line.

Oh now wait a minute, don't go there about line upon line precept upon precept!!! That has been totally refuted by your side as being a bogus way of studying the word of God. Ask Freeindeed about that. At any rate I disagree, I have been studying the Bible for years and use the whole book to make a foundation for my beliefs. However, if you think you have found where I am not doing that then lets discuss it. IOW, give me an example. BTW, I do think the verse in Isaiah can be used to tell us that we should use the the whole Bible line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

While you reason that the 10.com is still on the table.
Christ made sure we knew what laws He was fulfilling when He said; Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Yep then I also read in James 2:10 that if we offend in one we are guilty of them all and then in later verses we see the commandment of adultery discussed and then murder.

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........ The truth is, what did Christ and His apostles preach, teach and command to Gentile Christian? We can read to learn that these are written to let us know what you've heard from them of old, meaning the prophets?

I guess you don't know what false teaching is then. I read in the new testament that we are to do as Jesus did. IOW, He is our example. His habit was to go to the synagogue every Sabbath and worship there. The entire Bible never one times mentions that the first day of the week is holy, yet nearly the whole world keeps a tradition over the commandment of God.

Yes, After the law is given, sin is breaking the law... In Rom 5 Paul teaches that sin was in the world before the law was given.

The law of God was well known before Mt. Sinai read Gen 26:5.

Your agenda and doctrines are no secret to me. And I'm aware that you're a pastor.

Good luck with that:doh:

Peace

CRIB

Oh yeah, how did you come to that conclusion? I am an elder in my church but I am not a pastor. Not yet anyway.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 05:57 PM

[quote]

Lets look at what Christ said in context that the matter can be solved.

John 14:15 (KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 (KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:31 (KJV) But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 15:10 (KJV) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 (KJV) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 (KJV) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Correctly spoken Jim, so why do you confuse loving one another with performing the commandments? Justified sinners don't perform commndments as if they are in a slavish relationship with God? Jesus said we are nolonger servants but friends. He asks or commands love that we can establish the law not perform the law.

Romans 7:4 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I see where we are dead to the law, but I can't find the passage that says we are to be back up under the law. If you could kindly point to the passage that says Christ made us die to the law through His body that we can go back under the law just to be obedient, I would believe you, but I can't find it...can you find it for us that we can believe it?

Well I'm sorry if you come to that conclussion Jim. For the record, and I think I can speak for the other justified believers on this thread...Justified believers put to death the sins of the flesh through the Spirit...you see...we wage war against the sinful pleasures that the sin nature desires. So for the record, I am telling you that we, us ,all Justified belivers in tis section, who understand the correct position of the law in the life of justified sinners. wage war on the sins of the flesh, not by following after the ten words, but by the Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

You aswell!:wave:

AT:)

There is no need to shout.

The bible says Jesus didn't give a new commandment, but the same commandment we have heard from the beginning.

Love one another is the summation of the commandment 5-10.

Jesus summed up the commandments:

Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments sum up the 10 commandments. If they had replaced the 10 commandments, Jesus would have said so.

But instead, He said...

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As far as I know, heaven and earth have not passed away.

OntheDL

7th March 2007, 06:03 PM

Jim,

Do you need the law in order to know that murder is wrong? Is the law what you need in order to keep from sinning?

So you don't need the law to know what sins are?

Paul didn't even know what was sin what was not, except by the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:20 ... for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law tells me how far short I'm from Christ. It tells me my needs for Jesus.

The law is a mirror that shows me my dirt and my needs to go to the water for cleansing.

But without this mirror, I don't even know I have dirt on me.

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 06:06 PM

No it's not, what is not right is your way of looking at the law and grace. Your not using logic, your spouting a bunch of verses that you are trying to make say the law is gone or no longer in effect. Grace is only necessary if there is a law in existence period, no discussion, no debate , it's that straight forward.
Nothing tells me that I am under the law given as a covenant to Israel. The law has nothing to say to those who have shared in Christs death to be released from it, so that they could be raised up and joined to another, Jesus Christ. The righteous cannot be condemned by it for they have the righteousness of Christ that has been credited to them. (End of discussion, no debate, it's that straight forward. PERIOD!0

The complete fulfillment was accomplised in that Christ died for mine and your sins but that does not mean it's gone or done away with.
We are no longer under the old covenant/10 commandments but the new covenant. (Actually, I was never under the old covenant and neither were you!)

If you truely praised the Lord you wouldn't be about putting down His Holy law
Get it straight Jim. I'm not putting down the law given to Israel. The problem was not with the law! The problem was with the sin nature in man. They couldn't keep it and it only showed them how they lacked ANY righteousness of their own. Repeat after me: "I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN ISRAEL'S LAW."

and teaching it's ok to break it with impunity.
What you refuse to see is that I have only taught that believers follow the lead of the Spirit living in them, not their sin nature. The above words are YOUR words and accusation, because I certainly wouldn't be using the word 'impunity'.;)

If my words don't ring true it's because your ears are now like the apostle said concerning itching ears in 2 Tim 4:3.
Yeah...OK Jim...

Your words don't ring true because they don't fit with the Gospel of Christ. It's 'another gospel than the one Paul and the apostles preached'. It's a form of righteousness by works or righteousness by law-keeping, and it denies (even if only in part) what Christ has done on our behalf. It denies the Spirit who lives INSIDE the believer. It shifts the focus from Christ and places it on man's ability (or inability) to try and keep the old covenant. That's why it doesn't ring true.

Cribstyl

7th March 2007, 06:14 PM

Every single one of the ten commandments are sustained by the writings found in the new testament.

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........Luk 16:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#16) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Text says and proves that what Christ and His apostles preached vs what you reason by statements

I guess you don't know what false teaching is then. I read in the new testament that we are to do as Jesus did. IOW, He is our example. His habit was to go to the synagogue every Sabbath and worship there. The entire Bible never one times mentions that the first day of the week is holy, yet nearly the whole world keeps a tradition over the commandment of God.

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........ Where do you read that He is our example or is that reasoned too? Jesus kept many feasts, should we do that too? Jesus was circumcized, is that required of us too?
Jesus parents sacrificed at the alter should we do that?, Jesus was perfect He never sinned can you do that? No! We are to do as our Lord says, because we cannot do as He did.

:doh: sheezeluwizz

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 06:40 PM

Jim,

Do you need the law in order to know that murder is wrong? Is the law what you need in order to keep from sinning?

If it hadn't been for the law I wouldn't know what sin was. Didn't Paul say that in Romans? The law defines what sin is at the very basic level.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

7th March 2007, 06:54 PM

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........Luk 16:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#16) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Text says and proves that what Christ and His apostles preached vs what you reason by statements

Read Matt 5:18, Christ upheld the law and the prophets because He authored/inspired them.

:doh: If that's not false reasoning I dont know what is........ Where do you read that He is our example or is that reasoned too? Jesus kept many feasts, should we do that too? Jesus was circumcized, is that required of us too?

1 Pet 2:21 " For even hereunto were ye called because Christ also suffered for us leaving us an example that ye should follow His steps. Christ nailed the ceremonial laws to His cross so they are no longer in effect. They were a shadow of things to come in the sacrifice of Christ. Nothing in the ten were a shadow of any part of the ceremonial laws at all. What part of the ten commandments did the death and resurrection of Christ fulfill? Do we no longer need to be devoted to God which is the first 4? Do we no longer need to be good to our fellow man which is the last 6? Use some logic man.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Adventtruth

7th March 2007, 07:24 PM

[quote=Adventtruth;32519397]

[quote]There is no need to shout.

Hi DL.

Not shouting, just wanted the important points noticed.

The bible says Jesus didn't give a new commandment, but the same commandment we have heard from the beginning.

I agree...I never said they where new.

Love one another is the summation of the commandment 5-10.

If we love and not follow the ten words, what is the result?

Jesus summed up the commandments:

Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments sum up the 10 commandments. If they had replaced the 10 commandments, Jesus would have said so.

NO! These two commandments comprise not only the ten but all 613 laws. The ten can not hang upon them selves...that would be impossible. The two underscore all of them...the two are holding up the 613. The second commandment rest upon the first great commandment.

But instead, He said...

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As far as I know, heaven and earth have not passed away.

But has He fulfilled all of them?

AT:)

Eila

7th March 2007, 07:35 PM

So you don't need the law to know what sins are?
No, you don't need the law to know what sins are.

Paul didn't even know what was sin what was not, except by the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:20 ... for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Yes, the law brings knowledge of sin. The law brought knowledge of sin to Paul. The purpose of the law was to point out sin.

Who is it that made the moral standards in the law? The very one who made the law lives in us directing us.

John 16 says "7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

The law does not convict us anymore, but conviction comes from the Spirit.

Galatians 5 "16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. "

The law tells me how far short I'm from Christ. It tells me my needs for Jesus.

The law is a mirror that shows me my dirt and my needs to go to the water for cleansing.

But without this mirror, I don't even know I have dirt on me.

I agree that the law's function was to point out sin, but the only sin separating people from Christ is not believing on the name of Jesus.

You can look into the mirror of the law to see your dirt, but I think a better mirror to look in is described here:

2 Corinthians 3 "17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Eila

7th March 2007, 07:37 PM

If it hadn't been for the law I wouldn't know what sin was. Didn't Paul say that in Romans? The law defines what sin is at the very basic level.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

The law pointed out sin until Christ. However, that is a limited definition of sin. Sin was around before the law. Adam and Eve sinned without the 10 commandments or the law of Moses being in existance.

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 07:39 PM

Read Matt 5:18, Christ upheld the law and the prophets because He authored/inspired them.
They testified about Him. He fulfilled it.

1 Pet 2:21 " For even hereunto were ye called because Christ also suffered for us leaving us an example that ye should follow His steps. Christ nailed the ceremonial laws to His cross so they are no longer in effect. They were a shadow of things to come in the sacrifice of Christ. Nothing in the ten were a shadow of any part of the ceremonial laws at all. What part of the ten commandments did the death and resurrection of Christ fulfill? Do we no longer need to be devoted to God which is the first 4? Do we no longer need to be good to our fellow man which is the last 6? Use some logic man.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Christ nailed the whole law to the cross, not just the SDA, man-made divisions of it. And how could a person with God living IN them not be devoted TO him? Another 'short-sheeting' of the Holy Spirit.

Eila

7th March 2007, 07:46 PM

Jesus summed up the commandments:

Matt 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments sum up the 10 commandments. If they had replaced the 10 commandments, Jesus would have said so.

Jesus said those two commandments are the pinnacle of ALL the law and the prophets, not just the 10 commandments. Notice that these two commandments were part of the Book of the Law and not the 10 commandments:

Deut 6:5 "5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Lev 19:18 "18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. "

But instead, He said...

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As far as I know, heaven and earth have not passed away.

Then you should be keeping every aspect of the law and the prophets if you don't believe they were fulfilled in Christ.

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 07:47 PM

Who is it that made the moral standards in the law? The very one who made the law lives in us directing us.

John 16 says "7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

The law does not convict us anymore, but conviction comes from the Spirit.

Galatians 5 "16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. "

Right on! Those who are continually lifting up the law don't understand what it means to have the Author, Holy Spirit, literally Almight God LIVING IN them. The Holy Spirit usually is not even acknowledged, and if he is it's only lip-service so that they can get back to the law again.

NEWSFLASH!!! THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD! HE LIVES IN BELIEVERS!

freeindeed2

7th March 2007, 07:51 PM

The law pointed out sin until Christ. However, that is a limited definition of sin. Sin was around before the law. Adam and Eve sinned without the 10 commandments or the law of Moses being in existance.
Exactly!

We already had a sin-nature when we began to be knit together in the womb. We were sinners before we could even say any words, before we could even roll over, walk, or put our own pants on. We sin because we're sinners. We aren't sinners because we sin.

Eila

7th March 2007, 08:21 PM

There is absolutely nothing ceremonial about the 4th commandment. Explain what you mean.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Definition of ceremony: A ceremony is an activity, infused with ritual significance, performed on a special occasion.

The Sabbath is an activity performed on a special occasion - weekly. It is seen as significant based on creation and the release of the Isrealite captives. It is most significant in that it was the sign of the covenant between God and Israel.

Were there any requirements that the Isrealites were supposed to do on that day? Did those activities have significance?

Exodus 35 says "
2Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day shall be to you a holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord; whoever works [on that day] shall be put to death.
3You shall kindle no fire in all your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

Levitcus 23 "
2Say to the Israelites, The set feasts or appointed seasons of the Lord which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, even My set feasts, are these:
3Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation or assembly by summons. You shall do no work on that day; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings."

Here the weekly Sabbath is called a feast.

Levitcus 24 "8Every Sabbath day Aaron shall set the showbread in order before the Lord continually; it is on behalf of the Israelites, an everlasting covenant.
9And the bread shall be for Aaron and his sons, and they shall eat it in a sacred place, for it is for [Aaron] a most holy portion of the offerings to the Lord made by fire, a perpetual due [to the high priest]."

Here we see the priest engaging in a ritual every Sabbath day.

Numbers 15 says "
32While the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man who was gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
33Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
34They put him in custody, because it was not certain or clear what should be done to him.
35And the Lord said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36And all the congregation brought him without the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses."

Here we see that certain actions were not okay on the Sabbath day.

Numbers 28 says "
9And on the Sabbath day two male lambs a year old without spot or blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of flour for a cereal offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering.
10This is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering."

Here we see another ritual that takes place on the Sabbath day.

1 Chronicles 23 "
26So the Levites no more have need to carry the tabernacle and all its vessels for its service.
27For by the last words and acts of David, these were the number of the Levites from twenty years old and above.
28But their duty should be to wait on [the priests] the sons of Aaron in the service of the house of the Lord, caring for the courts, the chambers, the cleansing of all holy things, and any work of the service of God's house,
29For the showbread also, and for the fine flour for a cereal offering, whether of unleavened wafers or of what is baked on the griddle or soaked [in oil], and for all measuring of amount and size [as the Law of Moses required].
30They are also to stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord, and likewise at evening,
31And to assist in offering all burnt sacrifices to the Lord on Sabbaths, New Moon festivals, and set feast days by number according to the ordinance concerning them, continually before the Lord."

Here we see more ritual activities that take place on the Sabbath. These Sabbath is listed here along side New Moon festivals and feasts.

2 Chronicles 31 says "
2And Hezekiah appointed the priests and the Levites after their divisions, each man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the camp of the Lord.
3King Hezekiah's personal contribution was for the burnt offerings: [those] of morning and evening, for the Sabbaths, for the New Moons, and for the appointed feasts, as written in the Law of the Lord."

We see here that there are morning and evening burnt offering rituals associated with the Sabbath.

Nehemiah 13 says "
15In those days I saw in Judah men treading winepresses on the Sabbath, bringing in sheaves or heaps of grain with which they loaded donkeys, as well as wine, grapes, figs, and all sorts of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I protested and warned them on the day they sold the produce.
16There dwelt men of Tyre there also who brought fish and all kinds of wares and sold on the Sabbath to the people of Judah and in Jerusalem.
17Then I reproved the nobles of Judah and said, What evil thing is this that you do--profaning the Sabbath day?
18Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us and upon this city? Yet you bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the Sabbath.
19And when it began to get dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath [day began], I commanded that the gates should be shut and not be opened till after the Sabbath. And I set some of my servants at the gates to prevent any burden being brought in on the Sabbath day."

Here we see again that there are activities associated with the weekly Sabbath. Here they were to stop buying and selling on the Sabbath and Nehemiah instituted the command to close the gates on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 58 says "13If you turn away your foot from [traveling unduly on] the Sabbath, from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a [spiritual] delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor Him and it, not going your own way or seeking or finding your own pleasure or speaking with your own [idle] words,
14Then will you delight yourself in the Lord, and I will make you to ride on the high places of the earth, and I will feed you with the heritage [promised for you] of Jacob your father; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it."

Here again we see that there were certain things that should and should not be done on the Sabbath

Yes, I say the weekly Sabbath is a ceremony. It is something that happens on a special occasion and comes with requirements as to what to do and not do on the day.

Cribstyl

8th March 2007, 03:47 PM

Luk 16:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#16) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Text says and proves that what Christ and His apostles preached vs what you reason by statements

Read Matt 5:18, Christ upheld the law and the prophets because He authored/inspired them.

Hmmm,

First issue, why no commentary on Luke16:16?

Secondly....Matt 5:18 does not speak of just "upholding" the Law given Moses ,.
The text with it's context is saying, "All that Moses and every one of the prophets wrote about Jesus has to come to pass without a comma being changed.

Christ had to "Fulfill" what God prophesied to the serpent, about the seed of woman in Gen3:16, by both His birth and death(bruise heel).

Jesus had to be the prophetic Seed promises to Abraham. He had to be that prophetic Lamb of God that take away the sin of the world.
The new convenant was not to be as the one given at Sinai according to Jer31:31-34.

So Matt5:18 Jesus is talking about all the prophecies written in all the Old Testament that He must fulfill without one comma changing.

"Moses prophesied about Jesus saying:
Deu 18:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu018.html#15) The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
----------------------------------------------------
Act 3:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act003.html#22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
(what every prophet prophesied had to be "fulfilled")
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

All the prophecies about Jesus have to be fulfilled. If they were just "upheld" then someonelse would have to fullfill them.

TRUE OR FALSE?

Do you ignor the end of this text in your applications.

Mat 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=kjv#18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If "TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" was not in this isolated text, you would not need to explain it's meaning, but when you and others use this text you ignor it's meaning.

CRIB

Dave01

8th March 2007, 05:35 PM

Anyone who is born-again by the blood of Jesus, and then baptised, is baptised into the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

Cribstyl

9th March 2007, 09:43 AM

Luk 16:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#16) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Text says and proves that what Christ and His apostles preached vs what you reason by statements

Read Matt 5:18, Christ upheld the law and the prophets because He authored/inspired them.

Hmmm,

First issue, why no commentary on Luke16:16?

Secondly....Matt 5:18 does not speak of just "upholding" the Law given Moses ,.
The text with it's context is saying, "All that Moses and every one of the prophets wrote about Jesus has to come true,(fulfilled) without a comma being changed.

Christ had to "Fulfill" what God prophesied to the serpent, about the seed of woman in Gen3:16, by both His birth and death(bruise heel).

Jesus had to be the prophetic Seed promises to Abraham. He had to be that prophetic Lamb of God that take away the sin of the world.
The new convenant was not to be as the one given at Sinai according to Jer31:31-34.

So Matt5:18 Jesus is talking about all the prophecies written in all the Old Testament that He must fulfill without one comma changing.

"Moses prophesied about Jesus saying:
Deu 18:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu018.html#15) The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
----------------------------------------------------
Act 3:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act003.html#22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

If Moses prophesied that whatever Jesus say we would hear, who would want us to ignor Jesus as if Moses words were greater:scratch:

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Do we ignor Luke 16:16 that say the Law and the prophet were until John the baptiste? Do you?

Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
(what every prophet prophesied had to be "fulfilled")
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

All the prophecies about Jesus have to be fulfilled. If they were just "upheld" then someonelse would have to fullfill them.

TRUE OR FALSE?

Do you ignor the end of this text in your applications.

Mat 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=kjv#18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jim, If "TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" was not in this isolated text, you would not need to explain it's meaning, but when you and others use this text you ignor it's meaning.

CRIB
WELL, DO YA?

reddogs

9th March 2007, 05:14 PM

We cannot partake of the Spirit if we follow evil or that which is not of God, as we have to be in harmony with what God and His Son have given us before we can receive the Spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples:
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15-17

Love for God produces fruits of obedience; "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The Holy Spirit is promised to those who seek to live in harmony with God’s Word, and the Spirit will comfort and reveal truth. God wishes to save all mankind, but we need to walk in the light revealed and to accept that salvation lies in Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Again we have the conditionalist aspect of salvation coming to the fore: '“if” we walk in the light.’ The Holy Spirit that empowers for service is granted on the condition of obedience:
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

Conversion means to turn around, to no longer live the life that one lived before, to turn from sin, which is the transgression of the law. In order to be used by God and to be filled by the Spirit we must first be convicted of our sinfulness and need of salvation and this conviction is also brought about by the workings of the Holy Spirit:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:7, 8

We need to be aware of our sinful condition so that we may seek the solution to the sin problem in the only One who can save us from our sins and cover us with His righteousness so that we will not come into the final judgment. This is the gospel in a nutshell. How surprising that the popular teachings of today seek to remove this obligation and teach another gospel of popular humanism whereby one’s self esteem need not be convicted of its sinfulness.

We need to know what is wrong before we can correct it in His power and come back into an obedient relationship. Christ strengthens us against temptation.
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Hebrews 5:8,9

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22

The Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us of the Word of God so that we can be effective examples and witnesses for Him.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

The gifts of the Spirit were thus given to bring us back into harmony with God and to further the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit would bring individuals to repentance of sin, guiding them in a fuller understanding of the truth about God and Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:4649; John 14-16; Acts 4).

The fulfilment is to benefit those brought into the Church by the gospel witness. (John 17:20; Acts 2:38,39,46,47).

The gift of tongues was given to communicate the gospel to different language groups. (Acts 2:211, 43). In both Acts 2 and Acts 19, we see that tongues and prophecy are associated, and thus serve to communicate the Gospel.

The gifts were to promote unity within the church. (1 Cor 12: 1827).

In the lists of spiritual gifts, (Rom. 12:68; 1 Cor. 12:811,28-31; Eph. 4:11), only the gift of prophecy (communicating the Gospel) is presented in all four cases, and tongues only in 1 Corinthians.

Eila

9th March 2007, 06:04 PM

Reddogs,

It is as simple as this:

Acts 2:28 "And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 10 " And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles."

1 Corinthians 6 " Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own,"

1 Corinthians 12 "7But to each one is given the manifestation of the [Holy] Spirit [the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit] for good and profit."

A gift cannot be earned. The Holy Spirit engenders change. We do not change to receive the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit and He changes us.

Jimlarmore

9th March 2007, 06:12 PM

Luk 16:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#16) The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Text says and proves that what Christ and His apostles preached vs what you reason by statements

I have no problem with this. There is nothing here that says the law and the prophets are done away with or no longer in effect or useless. Until John the gospel of salvation thru Jesus Christ had not been preached but the system was ceremonial which included the sacrificial system. You don't read that the ten commandment law is gone here.

Hmmm,

First issue, why no commentary on Luke16:16?

Secondly....Matt 5:18 does not speak of just "upholding" the Law given Moses ,.
The text with it's context is saying, "All that Moses and every one of the prophets wrote about Jesus has to come to pass without a comma being changed.

First off they didn't use comma's or any other form of punctuation in the original languages of Greek or Hebrew . Those things are an add on by the translators later on. Laying that aside though the context is the sermon on the mount from Matt 5:1-12 , from 12-17 we see Christ telling us that we are the light of the world and that we are to let that light shine. On the other side of this verse we see the Bible saying that breaking one of the ten commandments and teaching that it's ok to do that is very serious indeed. The rest of this chapter does not say anything about Moses and the law or the prophets, so sorry pall you missed the boat on this one as well.

Christ had to "Fulfill" what God prophesied to the serpent, about the seed of woman in Gen3:16, by both His birth and death(bruise heel).

Jesus had to be the prophetic Seed promises to Abraham. He had to be that prophetic Lamb of God that take away the sin of the world.
The new convenant was not to be as the one given at Sinai according to Jer31:31-34.

So Matt5:18 Jesus is talking about all the prophecies written in all the Old Testament that He must fulfill without one comma changing.

Actually, a jot is not the same thing as a comma nor is a tiddle. I think a jot is like putting a dot above a "i" that was done on the greek letter "iota" and a tiddle is like crossing a "T" like they do in the letter Tau. At any rate you are absolutely correct about what you said above except if you are intimating that fulfilled means the law was done away with then that is not Biblical.

Do you ignor the end of this text in your applications.

Mat 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=kjv#18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If "TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" was not in this isolated text, you would not need to explain it's meaning, but when you and others use this text you ignor it's meaning.

CRIB

I don't ignore anything my friend. Christ completely fulfilled the prophecies and the ceremonial laws of Moses. However, nothing He did fulfilled the ten commandments which are about the way we relate to our creator and our fellow man. This law is the law of God and this is the law that the writter of Hebrews says God would write on our hearts and minds where they belong instead of on stone.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

9th March 2007, 06:21 PM

Anyone who is born-again by the blood of Jesus, and then baptised, is baptised into the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

The ten commandments are not the law of Moses. The ten commandments are called "the law of God" ( Isa 5:24 ) because God wrote them on tables of stone ( Ex 31:18, 32:16 ). The tables were placed inside the ark ( Ex 40:20 ) a place of permanence and below the mercy seat. The hand writing of Moses was put in a book and placed on the side of the ark ( Deut31:26 ) which was a temporary position.

BTW, the ten commandments were written by Christ so they are the law of Christ. :)

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

9th March 2007, 06:23 PM

A gift cannot be earned. The Holy Spirit engenders change. We do not change to receive the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit and He changes us.

True but a gift must be received to be realized and beneficial to the recepient. It takes an act like that to make it work. God will not force us to submit to His will.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

9th March 2007, 07:54 PM

True but a gift must be received to be realized and beneficial to the recepient. It takes an act like that to make it work. God will not force us to submit to His will.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

What is the act that is required to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 2:28 "And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here is says we need to change our alliegance and be baptized into Christ.

We come to Him and He changes us.

reddogs

9th March 2007, 11:33 PM

Eila

9th March 2007, 11:49 PM

We follow Christ from love, not to earn or work our way to salvation or gifts from the Spirt. You are essentally agreeing with what was posted as repent inherently means the law has been applied to show us our sin and we recognized it and so we repent, THEN the Holy Spirit can work its change in us.....
Do you get baptized every time you sin in order to keep the Holy Spirit working in your life?

Repentance is changing teams from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God. We don't yo-yo back and forth between kingdoms when we sin and the Holy Spirit does not leave us when we sin. If so then how could He convict us of sin?

OntheDL

10th March 2007, 02:06 AM

What is the act that is required to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 2:28 "And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here is says we need to change our alliegance and be baptized into Christ.

We come to Him and He changes us.

True repentance means turning away from your sins. How sorry are you if you are up to the same tricks again?

Why would God give you the holy spirit when you knowingly break the law?

OntheDL

10th March 2007, 02:18 AM

Do you get baptized every time you sin in order to keep the Holy Spirit working in your life?

Repentance is changing teams from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God. We don't yo-yo back and forth between kingdoms when we sin and the Holy Spirit does not leave us when we sin. If so then how could He convict us of sin?

The born-again/baptism experience is the self-dying process. The bible says "I die daily". You don't have to be baptized physically every time you sin, but you have to die to self to follow His will every day. Because He does not force it upon you.

Repentance is represented by the animal sacrifice in the old testament, or the cross. The animal sacrifice was a sin-deterrent act. Imagine you have to kill your best animal every time you sin.

Jesus said "if any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily".

The key is that when you know you have something wrong first through reading His word then by the conviction of the holy spirit, you don't do it again wilfully. Then the blood of the lamb covers your sins, Lev 4. As you find out the shortcomings/sins daily, you confess and turn away from you, you become more and more like christ, characterwise, daily. And as long as you abide in Him, He abides in you.

Eila

10th March 2007, 02:32 AM

True repentance means turning away from your sins. How sorry are you if you are up the same tricks again?

Why would God give you the holy spirit when you knowingly break the law?

Because God promises the Holy Spirit to all who come to Him. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and changes a person. The very God who made the law resides in us guiding us.

A gift is just that - a gift. Gifts do not require payment.

Galatians 3 pretty much sums up what I am trying to say "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&version=50#fen-NKJV-29103c)] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. "

OntheDL

10th March 2007, 02:51 AM

Because God promises the Holy Spirit to all who come to Him. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and changes a person. The very God who made the law resides in us guiding us.

A gift is just that - a gift. Gifts do not require payment.

Galatians 3 pretty much sums up what I am trying to say "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&version=50#fen-NKJV-29103c)] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. "

We are justified by work, not by faith alone. Faith without work is dead.

OntheDL

10th March 2007, 02:54 AM

Because God promises the Holy Spirit to all who come to Him. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and changes a person. The very God who made the law resides in us guiding us.

A gift is just that - a gift. Gifts do not require payment.

Galatians 3 pretty much sums up what I am trying to say "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&version=50#fen-NKJV-29103c)] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. "

Galatians 3 isn't talking about the 10 commandments, it is talking about the law of Moses. Paul was speaking out against christian judaizing: keeping the law of Moses like the Jews did.