Joel Osteen

[IisJustMe]

Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?It requires a very vague personal responsibility, and people don't want to accept the responsibility for their actions. They want to think it is "outside forces" that make them what they are, and while their parents, teachers, coaches and mentors have had a lot to do with forming them in many different wants, none of those people make us do anything. We are responsible for how we feel, how we think, how we talk, how we act. No one wants to hear that message, or particularly the consequences of those behaviors. Osteen makes it possible to chew on "a little bit of the gospel" without really having to hear the truth about ourselves, and about God. Just as Paul Washer preached on Matthew 7...narrow is the gate and narrow is the path...I don't know what Washer said because I haven't heard his sermon, but that passage talks about the "narrow path" being made narrow by the obstacles we put in place between us and God. That is the meaning behind the Greek text. It isn't that narrow until we start putting "idols" in the way that make it difficult to navigate the path. Kind of like your garage. LOL But again...where does the responsibility and accountability of the individual come into play?Even having said what I did about personal responsibility, there are those who are too new to the faith, or are still seeking, to know the truth from the lies, and Osteen doesn't hit on the truth forcefully enough or often enough for them to get the gospel bare and unadulterated. Remember, teachers are held to a higher standard. They best be teaching what the Bible teaches, and what people need to hear. How does predestination fit into all of this?Predestination isn't a doctrine of "you're chosen and you're not." Predestination is defined in Romans 8:29, 30 -- "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." This passage must be read as the foundational passage for election and predestination throughout the rest of the New Testament. He "foreknew" all who would come to Him, but He did not limit who would come. Those He foreknew, He "predestined" (decreed, appointed, settled beforehand) to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with election, but is the result of coming to the Lord. "Election" is not as is taught by the "five-pointers" as being a limitation on who shall come, but rather is the acceptance of a true and righteous confession by God. Anyone can make that confession, there are no limitations. Teaching there are is to put God in a box. It is the Holy Spirit who draws, the Holy Spirit who puts the gospel in front of the "seeker" so anyone who claims to be preaching a gospel message has an awesome responsibility to "preach it right."

[Cris413]

IiJM...thank you brother...your post adds a bit more perspective...:hug:

[Nadiine]

Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?

I'd answer this in 1 prophetical passage:
2 Timothy 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

[Kelly]

I couldn't imagine fighting those crowds each sunday for that milky, feel good message. Perhaps that church has really strong home church/small groups or something - maybe we don't know the whole picture.

[Floatingaxe]

I couldn't imagine fighting those crowds each sunday for that milky, feel good message. Perhaps that church has really strong home church/small groups or something - maybe we don't know the whole picture.

Yes, I have posted before how I have learned that Osteen's church is big on cell groups. The meat is found there and the milder exhortations come from the pulpit, where the entire body comes together.

In our church we receive our meat both from our cell groups AND the pulpit. We meet on Saturdays (youth) and Sundays in celebration, but the pastor's message is not diluted--it is strong, challenging teaching, which is exactly what the shepherd is to be doing. I do believe that Osteen is making a big mistake in preaching the fluffy stuff before his congregation, when he has such a monumental opportunity to evangelize.

[BustedFlat]

:thumbsup: Nadiine


I consider...where does the responsibility of the people come in?

It reminds me of the conversation we were having...that sex sells.

In order for sex to sell...someone has to buy into it.

So it stands to reasons...for fluff to sell...someone has to buy into it.

The Truth is out there. Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?

Just as Paul Washer preached on Matthew 7...narrow is the gate and narrow is the path...

I totally agree this false/watered down teaching is dangerous indeed...

But again...where does the responsibility and accountability of the individual come into play?

How does predestination fit into all of this?
The Bible is quite clear on the subject of personal responsibility ... It is up to us to hear and not be deceived. As Acts 17:11 states:
Act 17:10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
Act 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Act 17:12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. (NIV)

Jesus tells us many times:Mat 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
...

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

[Nobella]

You know who is Excellent in his teaching of the word of God , Charles Stanley! Now he gives "meat' and you will never go hungry in his church!:thumbsup:
You can catch him everyday on "His Channel" internet radio!

[Cris413]

I couldn't imagine fighting those crowds each sunday for that milky, feel good message. Perhaps that church has really strong home church/small groups or something - maybe we don't know the whole picture.
Hi Kelly,

I can only comment regarding a large CC I attended in FT Lauderdale. CC is evangelical in nature as well as a teaching church.

The balance comes in the form of different teachings on different days/evenings. A balance of milk and meat and strongly encouraging Home Fellowships in addition to the church fellowship.

Also there is or was...I haven't been there regularly for several years...an After Glow on Sunday evenings for prayer and seeking the Holy Spirit.

As I mentioned...Lakewood isn't too far from my home. I've often wondered if perhaps I should go a couple times and see where the Spirit leads me in discernment of this ministry.

I've seen Joel a couple times on tv...his message and in interviews and such but I've never been to Lakewood.

Oddly...well...not really all that odd....when I was looking for a new home church...several people suggested Lakewood...I had never heard of it nor Joel Osteen...and even back then...something didn't seem right in the Spirit...and even though several people very enthusiastically recommended Lakewood...the Spirit never led me to that church.

[Nadiine]

, but the pastor's message is not diluted--it is strong, challenging teaching, which is exactly what the shepherd is to be doing. I do believe that Osteen is making a big mistake in preaching the fluffy stuff before his congregation, when he has such a monumental opportunity to evangelize.
Severe mistake... when I see the size of that church & the secular interviews he's had w/ Larry King & others, God & His truth gets shoved under the bushell basket so that his "message of hope and love" rings out the loudest. That unfortunately speaks volumes all by itself.

I'm certainly not saying that every Pastor out there needs to be hammering the pulpit with weekly wrath, punishment & sin messages... that would be unbalanced and not teaching the whole counsel of God properly.

But as far as the cell groups associated w/ Osteen's church, we have to keep in mind WHO THOSE LEADERS are predominantly being fed by: their own pastor: Osteen.
The apples most likely don't fall too far from the cart - they're basically a reflection of their Shepherd's teaching & worldviews - only more thorough & personal (I'D HOPE).

[Nadiine]

You know who is Excellent in his teaching of the word of God , Charles Stanley! Now he gives "meat' and you will never go hungry in his church!:thumbsup:
You can catch him everyday on "His Channel" internet radio!

:amen: :amen:
Charles Stanley is phenomenal. Not only is teaching God's truth in Love and about God's love, he doesn't water down God's truth in order to do so.
He preaches on sin, condemnation and discipline IN LOVE - to me, he's the epitomy of how to preach the gospel message properly.

A very blessed man of God, God bless him richly.:thumbsup: :hug:

[Floatingaxe]

Severe mistake... when I see the size of that church & the secular interviews he's had w/ Larry King & others, God & His truth gets shoved under the bushell basket so that his "message of hope and love" rings out the loudest. That unfortunately speaks volumes all by itself.

I'm certainly not saying that every Pastor out there needs to be hammering the pulpit with weekly wrath, punishment & sin messages... that would be unbalanced and not teaching the whole counsel of God properly.

But as far as the cell groups associated w/ Osteen's church, we have to keep in mind WHO THOSE LEADERS are predominantly being fed by: their own pastor: Osteen.
The apples most likely don't fall too far from the cart - they're basically a reflection of their Shepherd's teaching & worldviews - only more thorough & personal (I'D HOPE).

Good point, Nadiine!

[Mathetes the kerux]

I think we all agree that God can & has used "bad" preachers. But that doesn't touch the seriousness of what's actually being harmed by him.

Let's not forget the people lulled into a sugar coma from being fed nothing but DESSERT when they need nutritional "food" to grow and mature on. (& may I note that I'm well aware that most who stay under his teaching most likely WANT IT THAT WAY - THEY REJECT sound teaching to embrace what feels good & strokes their emotional cords)

Then let's not forget the groundwork he's setting in Christianity where as a public figure who writes books, THE MAIN GOSPEL IS IGNORED and he's refusing to talk about sin and anything negative or serious that 'makes people feel take account of themselves'... he claims his message is only to give "HOPE" to people.
That's his idea of "hope"... pep rallys, & telling people how good they are & how much God loves them.
He's training people to seek that instead of the REAL hope - which is in Christ thru the truth of God (the whole counsel of God).

How does one have "hope" if they refuse to confront their sin & repent & if they aren't prepared for spiritual battle in this world? (they need alot more than a pep rally to 'just hang on' - as if that's all this is about). That's nothing more than keeping spiritual babies in your military without being properly taught.

Does he even offer Communion? Baptism? I don't know...

There's damage being done to the church thru this type of watered down, backstroking, warm fuzzy preaching that causes other good Pastors to be attacked for preaching correctly (ie. the non PC way).

I think it's besides the point that God uses him - the problem is, so does Satan.
:preach: steps off soapbox.
(that wasn't "at" you... just that I don't take it very lightly when I see the serious damage (imho) it does in other types of ways).
Agreed.

[Mathetes the kerux]

I have another Joel Osteen sermon to analyze, but I would love to know how a person is getting knocked to their knees in an Osteen service. It surely wouldn't be from anything he said. Remember no sin, no repentance and no need for salvation are mentioned in his sermons. So what did the listener hear that caused that conviction?
Remember Is. Chapt. 6 . . . there was NO sermon . . . only the revelation of God's Holiness.

Same in an Osteen context. God may just reveal Himself . . . and the person repent.

Not to Joel's credit . . . but the context given for the encounter would have definitely been supplied by his ministry.

I have a friend who went to a Benny Hinn Crusade and was healed instantaneously from alcoholism . . . now he has graduated Bible College and serves God faithfully. In my estimation . . . Benny is a heretic of the highest caliber . . . but again the principle IS God generally uses people in spite of themselves . . . for WE ARE ALL SINNERS.

[Mathetes the kerux]

*Zecryphon puts her back on soapbox*

Preach it sister!!!

:thumbsup: :amen: :hug:

Now if you'll all excuse me I have to go confess the sin of showing emotion as a Lutheran. LOL
Awesome!

[Mathetes the kerux]

It requires a very vague personal responsibility, and people don't want to accept the responsibility for their actions. They want to think it is "outside forces" that make them what they are, and while their parents, teachers, coaches and mentors have had a lot to do with forming them in many different wants, none of those people make us do anything. We are responsible for how we feel, how we think, how we talk, how we act. No one wants to hear that message, or particularly the consequences of those behaviors. Osteen makes it possible to chew on "a little bit of the gospel" without really having to hear the truth about ourselves, and about God.I don't know what Washer said because I haven't heard his sermon, but that passage talks about the "narrow path" being made narrow by the obstacles we put in place between us and God. That is the meaning behind the Greek text. It isn't that narrow until we start putting "idols" in the way that make it difficult to navigate the path. Kind of like your garage. LOLEven having said what I did about personal responsibility, there are those who are too new to the faith, or are still seeking, to know the truth from the lies, and Osteen doesn't hit on the truth forcefully enough or often enough for them to get the gospel bare and unadulterated. Remember, teachers are held to a higher standard. They best be teaching what the Bible teaches, and what people need to hear.Predestination isn't a doctrine of "you're chosen and you're not." Predestination is defined in Romans 8:29, 30 -- "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." This passage must be read as the foundational passage for election and predestination throughout the rest of the New Testament. He "foreknew" all who would come to Him, but He did not limit who would come. Those He foreknew, He "predestined" (decreed, appointed, settled beforehand) to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with election, but is the result of coming to the Lord. "Election" is not as is taught by the "five-pointers" as being a limitation on who shall come, but rather is the acceptance of a true and righteous confession by God. Anyone can make that confession, there are no limitations. Teaching there are is to put God in a box. It is the Holy Spirit who draws, the Holy Spirit who puts the gospel in front of the "seeker" so anyone who claims to be preaching a gospel message has an awesome responsibility to "preach it right."
Yep . . . and add to it 1 Peter 1 which also couches God's election in His foreknowledge.

[Mathetes the kerux]

You know who is Excellent in his teaching of the word of God , Charles Stanley! Now he gives "meat' and you will never go hungry in his church!:thumbsup:
You can catch him everyday on "His Channel" internet radio!

Me liketh Stanley . . . try CJ Mahaney!

[Nobella]

:amen: :amen:
Charles Stanley is phenomenal. Not only is teaching God's truth in Love and about God's love, he doesn't water down God's truth in order to do so.
He preaches on sin, condemnation and discipline IN LOVE - to me, he's the epitomy of how to preach the gospel message properly.

A very blessed man of God, God bless him richly. :hug:

Oh Girl you said a mouthful, Oh how I love that guy, he is so true blue,you can hear the love and sincerity in his message and I know the lord is very pleased with him. I listen to him every day and I get Blessed every time I hear him!

I wish everyone would listen!:clap: :clap:

[IisJustMe]

Yep . . . and add to it 1 Peter 1 which also couches God's election in His foreknowledge.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_201.gif

Thanks bro, appreciate the feedback, and the additional input. Good passage.

[Mathetes the kerux]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_201.gif

Thanks bro, appreciate the feedback, and the additional input. Good passage.
Yepper.

[Nobella]

Here's a Excellent message, it blessed me yesterday to see this.,...only 3 min long!
God has an awesome way of getting his message of love to us, and truly he can use anyone!

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/290621.aspx

[VCViking]

Here's Joel and Victoria on Hannity & Colmes back in October. Not one mention of Jesus.


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?102407/102407_hc_osteen&Hannity_Colmes&Joel%20%26%20Victoria%20Osteen&acc&US&-1&News&458&&&exp

[VCViking]

Joel Osteen will be on Fox News Channel Sunday at 6pm eastern time on Fox News Sunday discussing how faith figures in politics. To be interviewed by Chris Wallace.

Should be interesting.

[IisJustMe]

Joel Osteen will be on Fox News Channel Sunday at 6pm eastern time on Fox News Sunday discussing how faith figures in politics. To be interviewed by Chris Wallace. Should be interesting.Assuming Joel actually knows something about faith, as opposed to "feel good" spirituality.

[Nadiine]

Assuming Joel actually knows something about faith, as opposed to "feel good" spirituality.
Hey, Joel has strong faith! He's proved that by "hanging in there" for so long until God finally prospered him financially.
It took awhile, but his faith got him thru the deep valleys & dry patches.

[bill16652]

Goes to sowing and reaping, there is a time of planting and then watering and growth and finally a time of harvesting

[Nadiine]

Goes to sowing and reaping, there is a time of planting and then watering and growth and finally a time of harvesting
Absolutely Bill, amen.

But then, God doesn't always use material blessing (wealth) to prosper each one of us. I can't help but think that we're geared more towards thinking this way (materialistically) due to our modern culture.?
I could be wrong.

peace :angel:

[SharonL]

Goes to sowing and reaping, there is a time of planting and then watering and growth and finally a time of harvesting
You are right Bill - John Osteen has worked very hard and is a dedicated servant of the Lord.

I don't understand why Osteen gets pounded so much - I've watched many of his programs and he mentions Jesus all the time.

We only see 30 min. of his church - they have program after program, prayer time after prayer time, wonderful things for young people to do.

I will never understand the mentality of people who just bash people to be bashing them. - Osteen brings thousands and thousands to the Lord.

[bill16652]

You are right Bill - John Osteen has worked very hard and is a dedicated servant of the Lord.

I don't understand why Osteen gets pounded so much - I've watched many of his programs and he mentions Jesus all the time.

We only see 30 min. of his church - they have program after program, prayer time after prayer time, wonderful things for young people to do.

I will never understand the mentality of people who just bash people to be bashing them. - Osteen brings thousands and thousands to the Lord.Exactly right, why must we attack different parts of the body? We each have our cvalling and none is better or worde than another, we are to function together. I deal a lot with current events and prophecy while Joel deals with positive messages, they all come together. Hust because we are called to a certain area does not mean that the others are ignored, it just means that our annoinying is not necessarily in that area. We need to let the servants of God alone and concentrate on our own callings.

[Nadiine]

I will never understand the mentality of people who just bash people to be bashing them. - Osteen brings thousands and thousands to the Lord.
I don't understand those types of people either... however what I've been offering isnt' "bashing" just to bash someone.

I base mine on his message and lack of teaching the full counsel of God... using a PC message that ignores many important aspects of truth God gives.

I know for a fact that just 2 friends of my husband's who are unsaved watch Joel Osteen becuz he's so "positive and loving"... then they go on to attack pastors like John Hagee & Greg Laurie & many others who preach the whole gospel which includes what sin is & to turn from it.

This couple was living together & felt comfortable listening to Joel Osteen but wouldn't go near the others who preached "negatively". This is why I say what I do.

Now what damage does that do in the bigger picture? They consider anyone "ungodly" who doesn't preach like Osteen; who's supportive & positive & doesn't "condemn". That doesn't lead people to repentance, it leads them AWAY from it as they find anyone not preaching like Osteen "self righteous bigots".

They feel "spiritual" without having Christ. As you go back & read this thread, people here haven't just bashed Osteen for the sake of negative attack (insinuating they're just enjoying it for fun) - people have ample reason and esp. after his interviews that lack the ability to admit truth about God to the world.

Can God use him? YES. But God can also use any evil and anyone to reach people; it doesn't make them annointed Shepherds who preach word of God.

[Mathetes the kerux]

You are right Bill - John Osteen has worked very hard and is a dedicated servant of the Lord.

I don't understand why Osteen gets pounded so much - I've watched many of his programs and he mentions Jesus all the time.

We only see 30 min. of his church - they have program after program, prayer time after prayer time, wonderful things for young people to do.

I will never understand the mentality of people who just bash people to be bashing them. - Osteen brings thousands and thousands to the Lord.
There is no Gospel . . . that is the problem.

Just saying the name Jesus isn't much . . . Ghandi did that much.

[Nadiine]

There is no Gospel . . . that is the problem.

Just saying the name Jesus isn't much . . . Ghandi did that much.
This raises a key point - what is the gospel? That Christ came to die for our SIN *:eek:*
SIN is in the gospel message. Christ came to lead us to repent and turn to Him instead. THat IS the gospel - he doesn't preach 1/2 of it becuz it's "negative".

I have every right and I believe, the DUTY to point this out as a Christian and why I take issue with his preaching.
He's better suited for motivational speaking than a Shepherd since he has so much trouble even admitting the entire gospel message when interviewed (which should be simple for a Shepherd/evangelist).

[IisJustMe]

He's better suited for motivational speaking than a Shepherd since he has so much trouble even admitting the entire gospel message when interviewed (which should be simple for a Shepherd/evangelist).You just hit the nail on the head. The differene between Joel and, for example, Zig Zigler. is that Zig is a motivational speaker who is unabashedly Christian. Joel is a motivational speaker masquerading as an evangelist.

:doh:

Can't believe I didn't see that before!

[Nadiine]

I was in leadership in my last church (recently moved - need new church home). We were warned by the leaders of the church about Joel Osteen. Other leaders at the meeting had not nice things to say about his teaching.

So, I watched his broadcast (or part of it - got bored). I did not see him read from the Bible once only wave it around. I do not remember any quoting of Scripture from memory.

The main issue with him seems to be he does not teach the entire Gospel. He only focuses on the good things or blessings. He does not teach any warnings. I have heard others say he teaches from the "church of prosperity".

Of course he is popular if he only tells you about all the good things. But, that is deceptive to me. A leader needs to help their flock learn about the traps in life. How to deal with sin in their lives. About Hell and consequences.

He may be inspirational to listen to once in a while, but I would be leary of him being my main preacher. If he is not teaching the entire Bible, then to me he is a deceptive teacher.

This is just my opinion and the opinion of others I have talked too.

I am sorry you were not feeling well after you read my opinion. I hope you feel better now. :)

I did not imply that I had a great amount of knowledge regarding Mr. Olsteen. I merely stated my opinion on what I have heard from him directly on his program and others that have read his book that I know. I know of one person (I respect) that bought his book and actually threw it away after a couple of chapters.

I completely agree that the New Testament should be our main teacher. ALL the words not just selective ones that make people feel good.

I am not saying that everything he says is false. From the parts of his show I have seen, I can not think of anything that is false. I just worry that people that faithfully follow his teaching weekly will miss PART of the message in the New Testament.

He does not come across as strong in the Truth of the Bible that Jesus is the way to salvation. He says he believes the Bible but just can't say that those that do not believe that Jesus is their savior will not be saved. I agree with him that only God can judge. But, God gave us guidelines in the Bible that are very clear on certain issues. Jesus as the way to salvation is a clear point. He just kind of leaves it open for non-Christians.

I do worry about a teacher with so many followers that may get the impression that Jesus is not NECESSARY for salvation. He says I don't know a couple of times on this issue. A man in his position should know.

from cnn.com (Larry King Interview)

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?

OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.

Actually, I will watch his show again next time I come across it. I will count how many times he quotes scripture and how many times he opens that Bible he waves around. I will count how many times he warns his flock about sin and its consequences.

I have no problem with someone listening to him for encouragement now and again. My concern is for those who read or listen to nothing else and miss a big part of the Lords message to us.

I do not doubt he is inspirational. He was on the parts of his show I have seen. I would be fine with it if he were an inspirational speaker. But, I think a Pastor has more responsibility then an inspirational speaker.

Just my opinion . . .

This is for the OP & anyone that doesn't know about J Osteen's public interview w/ Larry King on CNN.
I strongly urge anyone who's supporting this man to read this & notice the STARTLING statements made (and lack of statements) that come from a "Christian evangelist".
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/20/lkl.01.html

*other links: what Osteen is charging when he travels to speak: (this is true, my husband saw his ticket sales in Calif. here just a few mos. ago and they were at $100 a ticket)
- disclaimer: I haven't thoroughly searched these sites - just these pages I got from the search engine.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/whats_that_you.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac29.htm


But NewChild, an "encourager" is NOT A SHEPHERD! OR PASTOR. An encourager isn't an evangelist & shouldn't be pastoring & overseeing over a church.
He should then be an ASST. pastor, who brings that to people separately.
Pastor/shepherds give God's full counsel to members to spiritually feed them.
Encouraging & self esteem are not pastoral positions.

Then guess what, THEY DON'T WANT GOD! Let them GO then! Did Jesus ever change His message that offended the people so much just becuz they didn't wanna hear His verses?
Never.
When they attacked him for his truth, did he apologize & tell them he'll stop saying it? Stop quoting it? No.
If people are so repulsed by the Bible, then they do not want the Lord either. That's fine then. Those who come to church need to hear truth.. if that makes them leave, let them go.
There are TONS of churches that thrive (incl. the one I go to) that preach straight out of the bible, chapter by chapter in a whole study series... how is it we thrive & grow??

Watering down or not giving the entire truth leads people to being ignorant of truth. What happens when they DO find out God condemns people eternally? Or what sins God forbids etc.?
We don't change our message for people's comfort. We give the truth IN LOVE and kindness.

If you go back to around page 26-28 there were other statements made that had more substance & info.

I'll be interested to hear what he has to say on Fox news soon. He's still preaching the same messages, so I don't know what he'll change in this interview.

[IisJustMe]

If you go back to around page 26-28 there were other statements made that had more substance & info.

I'll be interested to hear what he has to say on Fox news soon. He's still preaching the same messages, so I don't know what he'll change in this interview.Nothing, it will go just like it did on "60 Minutes" even down to the reporter pushing him for his take on the gospel. That's what amazed me, was that a CBS reporter knew enough about the Bible to press Joel on what he really believed. Of course, Joel managed to sidestep the questions. Maybe Fox will be a bit more persistent.

[Mathetes the kerux]

This raises a key point - what is the gospel? That Christ came to die for our SIN *:eek:*
SIN is in the gospel message. Christ came to lead us to repent and turn to Him instead. THat IS the gospel - he doesn't preach 1/2 of it becuz it's "negative".

I have every right and I believe, the DUTY to point this out as a Christian and why I take issue with his preaching.
He's better suited for motivational speaking than a Shepherd since he has so much trouble even admitting the entire gospel message when interviewed (which should be simple for a Shepherd/evangelist).
SIN is in the gospel message.

OUCH . . . I am going to point this out . . . and I know you know it . . . but for the sake of others so they dont get the wrong impression:

SIN must be seasoned by Grace . . . otherwise the message of the Cross is NOT completed.

SIN is a major factor in the equation . . . but Grace is NECESSARY outcome for redemption. Otherwise we just all stand condemned.

Like I said . . . I know you know this . . . but for the benefit of those reading . . .

pax

MTK

[Nadiine]

OUCH . . . I am going to point this out . . . and I know you know it . . . but for the sake of others so they dont get the wrong impression:

SIN must be seasoned by Grace . . . otherwise the message of the Cross is NOT completed.

SIN is a major factor in the equation . . . but Grace is NECESSARY outcome for redemption. Otherwise we just all stand condemned.

Like I said . . . I know you know this . . . but for the benefit of those reading . . .

pax

MTK
Yep I do know that :thumbsup: :) - I have unsaved friends & I can assure you & anyone reading my posts that I do not talk to them like I talk in some of my posts... Supposedly I'm speaking to a majority of Christians here (at least they display the symbol that I have to respect as Christian for the sake of this forum's standards) - who do or should have some common agreement on basic doctrines & I don't talk to the unsaved like I talk in my posts so bluntly.

*also, the fact that Osteen refuses to BALANCE the gospel with "SIN", it makes us look bad when we have to FOCUS ON THE SIN ASPECTS. As we see with the way you recieved my post - HAVING TO POINT OUT GRACE.
USING ALL GRACE IS A DISSERVICE AS USING ALL SIN IS.
;)
I shouldn't have to bring out the negative facts for any Pastor, it should be balanced by them... since they refuse, it's left to others to look "negative" due to their lack of responsibility w/ God's word.

Audience has alot to do with it, but I don't apologize for or neglect to relay the full gospel to the lost or saved.
:angel:

*I've also seen some people preach to atheists using all sin & judgment messages which I've kindly pointed out to them that they lacked gentleness & grace.

[Cris413]

Here's Joel and Victoria on Hannity & Colmes back in October. Not one mention of Jesus.


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?102407/102407_hc_osteen&Hannity_Colmes&Joel%20%26%20Victoria%20Osteen&acc&US&-1&News&458&&&exp
If this is the only type of spiritual guidance and direction we can look forward to from the media in times of tragedy and devastation...all I can say is...

:swoon:

Don't worry if your home has been destroyed by wildfires...sometimes bad things happen to good people...don't get mad at each other...don't get mad at the government...don't get mad at God...God is good...just don't get negative...perservere with that positive energy and God will turn it into your advantage...

Great time to promo a new book though...

again I say...:swoon:

[VCViking]

Here's the video and transcript from Fox News Sunday 12/23/07.


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?122307/122307_fns_osteen&FNS&Joel%20Osteen%20on%20%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3BFOX%20News%20Sunday%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3B&Joel%20Osteen%20on%20%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3BFOX%20News%20Sunday%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3B&US&-1&News&829&&&exp


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318054,00.html


I don't know where to begin and I certainly do not have the time now.

I will say this. He is a nice guy but has no business being a pastor. He is unqualified. He is a stumbling block to millions. He is more concerned about how people feel than there eternal salvation. He is more concerned about how people feel now than how they will feel in eternal punishment. :scratch:

He should be a counselor, not a pastor.

[djsterf]

Some observations:

(1) He got really nervous towards the end -- note how many times he says 'you know' toward the middle and end.
(2) He actually mentioned Jesus' death for once, praise God (see his last comment)
(3) I really pray that Osteen gets his focus on necessary faith issues (sin, repentance). Do you know how much God can use him as an evangelist? If not him, shoot, I'd love to go there and preach about sin & grace. I'm sure thousands of preachers would. I'm sure also that 47,000 wouldn't show up the next time...

Just keep praying for him. If he can help people, good, but if he can lead them to Jesus, YES!

[Zecryphon]

Some observations:

(1) He got really nervous towards the end -- note how many times he says 'you know' toward the middle and end.
(2) He actually mentioned Jesus' death for once, praise God (see his last comment)
(3) I really pray that Osteen gets his focus on necessary faith issues (sin, repentance). Do you know how much God can use him as an evangelist? If not him, shoot, I'd love to go there and preach about sin & grace. I'm sure thousands of preachers would. I'm sure also that 47,000 wouldn't show up the next time...

Just keep praying for him. If he can help people, good, but if he can lead them to Jesus, YES!
If Osteen starts talking about sin and repentance he will lose a great number of people in his church. There's very few people who can handle being told that they are a sinner. There's very few people that can handle being told THEY are the reason Jesus had to die on a cross. People think they're good and that God loves them because they are so good. Which has always made me ask the question: "If you're a good person, what do you need a savior for? What do you need to be saved from?"

[Cris413]

As much as we consider the lack of edification in watered down doctrine...

We should also consider all of those ears being plugged up to the truth...

...and our individual responsibility...

Php 2:1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy,
Php 2:2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Light Bearers
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
Php 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
Php 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.
Php 2:17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
Php 2:18 For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me.

[Nadiine]

If Osteen starts talking about sin and repentance he will lose a great number of people in his church. There's very few people who can handle being told that they are a sinner. There's very few people that can handle being told THEY are the reason Jesus had to die on a cross. People think they're good and that God loves them because they are so good. Which has always made me ask the question: "If you're a good person, what do you need a savior for? What do you need to be saved from?"
Beeeeeeeeeeeeengo. :idea: Yepp.

I watched him on Fox News and one thing I found tragic were his comments on Mormonism regarding Mitt Romney running for pres. as a Mormon.
He said that as long as we claim Jesus Christ, that we have that commonality together... (paraphrasing) - in other words, Mormon's claim Christ's name too, who are we to divide with Mormons when we claim the same Christ.
:swoon: That's a Shepherd of the flock?? :swoon:

Sorry, it was the same rehashed, tired message from before. & if it ain't broke, why fix it? He has over 50,000 in his congregation - the largest church there is.... why is he going to change his formula?

Zec you hit the nail on it - they WANT TO BE SPOONFED DESSERT that strokes their feathers & tells them how good they are & how God is there to bless & love them if they just hang in there long enough.

He said people already know what they're doing wrong - DO THEY?? He can't even decide if Mormonism is false!
:sigh:

:help:

[bill16652]

Beeeeeeeeeeeeengo. :idea: Yepp.

I watched him on Fox News and one thing I found tragic were his comments on Mormonism regarding Mitt Romney running for pres. as a Mormon.
He said that as long as we claim Jesus Christ, that we have that commonality together... (paraphrasing) - in other words, Mormon's claim Christ's name too, who are we to divide with Mormons when we claim the same Christ.
:swoon: That's a Shepherd of the flock?? :swoon:

Sorry, it was the same rehashed, tired message from before. & if it ain't broke, why fix it? He has over 50,000 in his congregation - the largest church there is.... why is he going to change his formula?

Zec you hit the nail on it - they WANT TO BE SPOONFED DESSERT that strokes their feathers & tells them how good they are & how God is there to bless & love them if they just hang in there long enough.

He said people already know what they're doing wrong - DO THEY?? He can't even decide if Mormonism is false!
:sigh:

:help:Totyally agree, this is end times and many will not endure sound doctrine, and there will be seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and they are not all bad. The one thing that the devil wants is for Christians to be complacent and content but I also believe that there is a balance and there is a place for a good message as well.

[Zecryphon]

Beeeeeeeeeeeeengo. :idea: Yepp.

I watched him on Fox News and one thing I found tragic were his comments on Mormonism regarding Mitt Romney running for pres. as a Mormon.
He said that as long as we claim Jesus Christ, that we have that commonality together... (paraphrasing) - in other words, Mormon's claim Christ's name too, who are we to divide with Mormons when we claim the same Christ.
:swoon: That's a Shepherd of the flock?? :swoon:

Sorry, it was the same rehashed, tired message from before. & if it ain't broke, why fix it? He has over 50,000 in his congregation - the largest church there is.... why is he going to change his formula?

Zec you hit the nail on it - they WANT TO BE SPOONFED DESSERT that strokes their feathers & tells them how good they are & how God is there to bless & love them if they just hang in there long enough.

He said people already know what they're doing wrong - DO THEY?? He can't even decide if Mormonism is false!
:sigh:

:help:
Obviously Joel doesn't know what the Mormons teach about Christ. It's not the same Christ that Christians worship. In the late 70's there was a PR campaign by the LDS church to attract new followers. They claimed that the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ. This is blatantly false. Mormons today either choose for forget or simply don't know that Jospeh Smith was supposedly told by an angel that ALL churches were false and that he was to found the one true church, Mormonism. That means that Christianity was heretical and false as well. So why would the LDS, who should be knowledgable of this piece of history, try to claim to be Christian when the founder of their faith considered Christianity to be a false religion?

[Nadiine]

Here's the video and transcript from Fox News Sunday 12/23/07.


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?122307/122307_fns_osteen&FNS&Joel%20Osteen%20on%20%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3BFOX%20News%20Sunday%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3B&Joel%20Osteen%20on%20%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3BFOX%20News%20Sunday%26%2392%3B%26%2339%3B&US&-1&News&829&&&exp


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318054,00.html


I don't know where to begin and I certainly do not have the time now.

I will say this. He is a nice guy but has no business being a pastor. He is unqualified. He is a stumbling block to millions. He is more concerned about how people feel than there eternal salvation. He is more concerned about how people feel now than how they will feel in eternal punishment. :scratch:

He should be a counselor, not a pastor.
Yes exactly. He is NOT a Pastor. He's Tony Robbins - just sprinkling in some comments about God here and there.

In my most humble opinion, I'll tell you what i truly think - I honestly believe he's ashamed of the full gospel of Christ, becuz he cannot bring himself to even utter the entire message of salvation and our human condition - or that we MUST repent of sin... he can't even bear to utter those words. When those questions are asked of him, he looks like he's literally uncomfortable & squirming. He can EASILY breeze thru the "I'm gifted to encourage" shpeel... get him on sin, repentance or important doctrinal issues & watch him start sweating bullets. (I truly wonder if he could even PREACH a sermon on a doctrine using the bible!).:confused: :scratch:
He prefers stories about his family & other people & pep talks instead.

Well, that's the people want - :sigh:

[Nadiine]

Obviously Joel doesn't know what the Mormons teach about Christ. It's not the same Christ that Christians worship.
Which is why I continue to claim that HE IS NOT A SHEPHERD - dare I say that I believe that God has NOT called him to the Pastoral office.
He doesn't even know what unorthodox religions teach about Christ! With his mentality, we have to deduce that JW's are also fellow Christians - heck, for all I know, maybe he thinks Jim Jones & David Koresh were just trying to be good Christians too. They loved God, they just failed in their mission. :/



In the late 70's there was a PR campaign by the LDS church to attract new followers. They claimed that the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ. This is blatantly false. Mormons today either choose for forget or simply don't know that Jospeh Smith was supposedly told by an angel that ALL churches were false and that he was to found the one true church, Mormonism. That means that Christianity was heretical and false as well. So why would the LDS, who should be knowledgable of this piece of history, try to claim to be Christian when the founder of their faith considered Christianity to be a false religion?
Very true, it's in all the documentation.

:(
:swoon:

[Mathetes the kerux]

Obviously Joel doesn't know what the Mormons teach about Christ. It's not the same Christ that Christians worship. In the late 70's there was a PR campaign by the LDS church to attract new followers. They claimed that the Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ. This is blatantly false. Mormons today either choose for forget or simply don't know that Jospeh Smith was supposedly told by an angel that ALL churches were false and that he was to found the one true church, Mormonism. That means that Christianity was heretical and false as well. So why would the LDS, who should be knowledgable of this piece of history, try to claim to be Christian when the founder of their faith considered Christianity to be a false religion?
The biggest problem with Mormonism is it's proclivity to revisionism . . . they see revelation as still open and being revising in their views they have no problem with claiming error on behalf of their founders and in the doctrinal foundations of their theology . . . but claiming that current "prophets" (NOT in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense of the term) have given NEW revelation that supercedes old revelation.

Hence you have polytheism and polygamy PREVALENT i the early days of Mormonism . . . but rare today and only by "fundamentalist" groups as defined by their own conservatives.

IOW, there are beliefs that raged in the beginning that are not even held among mainstream Mormons today . . .

[BustedFlat]

The Parable of the Mustard Seed

Mar 4:30 Then He said, "To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it?
Mar 4:31 It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth;
Mar 4:32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade."

Yesterday, our pastor taught on this passage. The common (and in my and his opinion WRONG) interpretation of this is that with a tiny bit of faith the church can grow so big that it surpasses all. The problem is that the birds Jesus had explained as being of Satan:

Mar 4:4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.

Mar 4:15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Does it not seem there is parallels to Osteen's church? With just a little bit of truth you can create an abomination that allows sin to rest comfortably within? There is no need to weed your fields, no need to produce fruit, rest comfortable here with the ministers of Satan so that they can remove any part of the word you may have heard.

[Nadiine]

The Parable of the Mustard Seed

Mar 4:30 Then He said, "To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it?
Mar 4:31 It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth;
Mar 4:32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade."

Yesterday, our pastor taught on this passage. The common (and in my and his opinion WRONG) interpretation of this is that with a tiny bit of faith the church can grow so big that it surpasses all. The problem is that the birds Jesus had explained as being of Satan:

Mar 4:4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.

Mar 4:15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Does it not seem there is parallels to Osteen's church? With just a little bit of truth you can create an abomination that allows sin to rest comfortably within? There is no need to weed your fields, no need to produce fruit, rest comfortable here with the ministers of Satan so that they can remove any part of the word you may have heard.
Hey, this sounds like the Parable of the sower & the soils from Matt. 13.

3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;

4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
5"Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6"But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7"Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8"And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9"He who has ears, let him hear."
-------- parable explained:

19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

20"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

That post is a blessing, thanks for sharing.:hug:

[BustedFlat]

Same teaching. Mark is a little less PC about it.;)

[Nadiine]

The biggest problem with Mormonism is it's proclivity to revisionism . . . they see revelation as still open and being revising in their views they have no problem with claiming error on behalf of their founders and in the doctrinal foundations of their theology . . . but claiming that current "prophets" (NOT in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense of the term) have given NEW revelation that supercedes old revelation.

Hence you have polytheism and polygamy PREVALENT i the early days of Mormonism . . . but rare today and only by "fundamentalist" groups as defined by their own conservatives.

IOW, there are beliefs that raged in the beginning that are not even held among mainstream Mormons today . . .
& don't forget RACISM. Blacks were viewed as a curse - cursed by God & were forbidden to hold any office in the church... that is until the civil rights movement when they were under heavy pressure-- and suddenly God changed His mind (conveniently) to let them hold office in the church & the whole 'curse' doctrines ended.

I always wonder if Joseph Smith was WRONG then, or if they're WRONG today in their 'new revelations' from God as they change?
:scratch: :confused:

[Mathetes the kerux]

& don't forget RACISM. Blacks were viewed as a curse - cursed by God & were forbidden to hold any office in the church... that is until the civil rights movement when they were under heavy pressure-- and suddenly God changed His mind (conveniently) to let them hold office in the church & the whole 'curse' doctrines ended.

I always wonder if Joseph Smith was WRONG then, or if they're WRONG today in their 'new revelations' from God as they change?
:scratch: :confused:
They are both wrong.

[Zecryphon]

Yes exactly. He is NOT a Pastor. He's Tony Robbins - just sprinkling in some comments about God here and there.

In my most humble opinion, I'll tell you what i truly think - I honestly believe he's ashamed of the full gospel of Christ, becuz he cannot bring himself to even utter the entire message of salvation and our human condition - or that we MUST repent of sin... he can't even bear to utter those words. When those questions are asked of him, he looks like he's literally uncomfortable & squirming. He can EASILY breeze thru the "I'm gifted to encourage" shpeel... get him on sin, repentance or important doctrinal issues & watch him start sweating bullets. (I truly wonder if he could even PREACH a sermon on a doctrine using the bible!).:confused: :scratch:
He prefers stories about his family & other people & pep talks instead.

Well, that's the people want - :sigh:
I don't know if he's ashamed as much as he's ignorant. I don't get the same vibe from Osteen that I get from somebody like Benny Hinn. I think Osteen truly wants to do good for the kingdom of God, he just doesn't know how. Also, let's not forget that a Joel Osteen is just the newr version of Robert Schuller. There's a guy who also never talks about sin and repentance. He has only preached on the cross once in his entire career. It's all about the power of positive thinking with him. If you believe it, you can achieve it. Guys like Schuller are directly responsible for the "name it and claim it" preachers we have now. Take Schuller's theology (whatever that is) and run with it.

[Zecryphon]

The biggest problem with Mormonism is it's proclivity to revisionism . . . they see revelation as still open and being revising in their views they have no problem with claiming error on behalf of their founders and in the doctrinal foundations of their theology . . . but claiming that current "prophets" (NOT in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense of the term) have given NEW revelation that supercedes old revelation.

Hence you have polytheism and polygamy PREVALENT i the early days of Mormonism . . . but rare today and only by "fundamentalist" groups as defined by their own conservatives.

IOW, there are beliefs that raged in the beginning that are not even held among mainstream Mormons today . . .
Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.
Indeed.

[Nadiine]

I don't know if he's ashamed as much as he's ignorant. I don't get the same vibe from Osteen that I get from somebody like Benny Hinn. I think Osteen truly wants to do good for the kingdom of God, he just doesn't know how.
I hope you're right .. but with the amount of discomfort he displays, it didn't appear as ignorance to me, but not liking that part of it.

Well, speculation is speculation - I'll let God work it all out. Until then, I'll continue to dissaprove of his repedative, partial PC messages.

[IisJustMe]

Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.I've heard that also, and I have a friend who works for a wire service who told me their stylebook calls for them to use the term "Mormon" in reference only to the Utah church. Much of the confusion comes from the 1872 split between the LDS and what was formerly known as the "RLDS" based in Independence, Mo. People continued to believe they were the same church, even though the RLDS ("Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints") disavowed Brigham Young and those who followed him. The RLDS claimed they were the "true followers" of Joseph Smith, who was actually killed in Nauvoo, Illinois, before the pioneers even moved westward into Missouri in 1830.

Since 2001, the RLDS has been known as the "Community of Christ" and while it has tried to rebrand itself as a mainstream evangelical church, it still strongly identifies with Joseph Smith and continues to use the Book of Mormon as a "second inspired gospel" like the LDS. The official web site of the church glosses over the details of Smith's "revelation" preferring not to go into the telling of the so-called "golden plates" and the other nonsense still held near and dear by the LDS. Nonetheless, the Community of Christ is really nothing more than warmed-over Mormonism. Their web site is here:

http://www.cofchrist.org/

As to there actually being a difference between Mormons and the LDS, there is none. The official outreach web site for the church is, in fact, this:

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/

[Waddell]

Actually, there is a difference between the LDS and Mormons. Some LDS adherents will take great offense at being called Mormon, because it's the Mormons who tend to be the more traditional, engaging in polygamy and holding to the original teachings of their faith. Mormonism is always revising what it teaches, turns out DNA testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to that religion.

Sorry, but BUNK!

I was a morman. Thank God He saved me.

Trust me, you're not going to want to go down this road. :)

[Zecryphon]

Sorry, but BUNK!

I was a morman. Thank God He saved me.

Trust me, you're not going to want to go down this road. :)
I have no interest in going down this road as Mormons are not Christians. They worship a Christ that is different from the one revealed in the scriptures. If you were a Mormon, you'd know how to spell it.

[Sunrise78]

If Osteen starts talking about sin and repentance he will lose a great number of people in his church. There's very few people who can handle being told that they are a sinner. There's very few people that can handle being told THEY are the reason Jesus had to die on a cross. People think they're good and that God loves them because they are so good. Which has always made me ask the question: "If you're a good person, what do you need a savior for? What do you need to be saved from?"

Exactly!

The true gospel of the cross, repentance and salvation from sin is what the Holy Spirit uses to convict people and draw them to Himself. People say, "well, he's preaching the way he preaches to reach more people." But with what? You might have more people in the seats, but have you really reached them? Or are they just lulled into a sense of complacency? If one preaches a gospel that is not the full gospel in order to "reach more people", are they truly preaching the gospel, or are they just watering down the message to make it more palatable to those who don't want to hear about how they are sinners in need of salvation? I think that is what Joel Osteen is doing.

[Grateful4God]

I've seen some of his messages on TV. I wouldnt say pure fluff. Sometimes I think its refreshing to hear someone who speaks of the Love of Jesus and not always giving his translation of the scriptures. Jesus himself did not preach of hells fires and condemning every mans sins.

[JustAsIam77]

Absolutely Bill, amen.

But then, God doesn't always use material blessing (wealth) to prosper each one of us. I can't help but think that we're geared more towards thinking this way (materialistically) due to our modern culture.?
I could be wrong.

peace :angel:

Of course the "prosperity" preachers fully understand the inherant "material" nature of their flock. Thats why they continue to feed it to them week in and week out.

Below is a tutorial, (tongue in cheek), for potential prosperity preacher wannabes. From a website exposing this fleecing of the flock for fun and profit:

Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

Not bashing, just sayin.

I watched the Larry King interview with Mr Osteen and his wife. It made me uncomfortable just watching how uncomfortable Osteen was with any direct question from Larry King that would require a biblical answer. He stumbled over basics such as who Davids son was. First saying Samual, then did correct himself.

I guess we are not to judge. That's for God. But if it walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck ...

[IisJustMe]

Hey 'Aslam' welcome to the thread. I've not seen you on the forum before, so if I've just missed or overlooked you, sorry, but "hello" anyway. LOL Do you mind sharing the web site this came from?

Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

That's good stuff, very appropriate here.

[kallenfranchise]

Larry King & Joel Osteen interview transcript

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0712/26/lkl.01.html


God Bless You!!

[Cris413]

Here's the video and transcript from Fox News Sunday 12/23/07.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318054,00.html


I don't know where to begin and I certainly do not have the time now.

I will say this. He is a nice guy but has no business being a pastor. He is unqualified. He is a stumbling block to millions. He is more concerned about how people feel than there eternal salvation. He is more concerned about how people feel now than how they will feel in eternal punishment. :scratch:

He should be a counselor, not a pastor. I finally got a moment to watch this...

The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.

Osteen's message is one of people focusing inward to themselves rather than focusing upward towards God...

...not good.

IMHO we cannot change ourselves...not on any real significant level...

It's only the transforming power of the Holy Spirit...a sacrificial life given to God that produces the fruit of the Spirit.

I get pretty uneasy when I hear people suggest we listen to our "inner voice"...I'm thinking...we should be listening to God's voice.

I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

[Mathetes the kerux]

I finally got a moment to watch this...

The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.

Osteen's message is one of people focusing inward to themselves rather than focusing upward towards God...

...not good.

IMHO we cannot change ourselves...not on any real significant level...

It's only the transforming power of the Holy Spirit...a sacrificial life given to God that produces the fruit of the Spirit.

I get pretty uneasy when I hear people suggest we listen to our "inner voice"...I'm thinking...we should be listening to God's voice.

I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Amen!

[VCViking]

The red flag IMO...is how many times he used the word "self" anytime the focus is on our"self" the focus is not on God.


I noticed the same thing.:thumbsup:

[Nadiine]

[snipp]
I don't know Mr Osteen...but his message was pretty clear regarding a focus on one's self...

which seems to me is clearly in opposition to what the Lord tells us:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Definitely an accurate observation with scripture support. Focusing on self is most of our problem.
:help: :doh:

[Cris413]

Definitely an accurate observation with scripture support. Focusing on self is most of our problem.
:help: :doh: Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.

[Zecryphon]

Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.
This is most certainly true. ;)

[Sunrise78]

Quote, "Remember that the corrupt nature of man is to seek after fame and fortune for themselves at the exclusion of others. You can be assured of a following as long as you continue to offer them the possibility of riches and power. Keeping this in mind, continue to appeal to the corrupt nature of man and spiritualize it by suggesting that the things they desire are the same things God desires for them. Often repeat the phrases such as: "God desires for you to be rich, healthy and happy above everything else". Avoid people who claim that spiritual maturity is more important in God's eyes than financial success. Keep your flock from these types. They can be very devastating to your ministry".

This would be good as a modern-day Screwtape Letter ...

[Nadiine]

Indeed sister. Which is why our Lord teaches otherwise. And a doctrine focused on self...IMHO...is a most dangerous doctrine.
So true - another thing I hear alot from people who claim they're Christians is "trust your heart" or "listen to your heart".:doh:
:eek:
That's what got me into all of my trouble - & I had to run to God to beg Him to fix it for me. :help:

:swoon:

[Floatingaxe]

I have no interest in going down this road as Mormons are not Christians. They worship a Christ that is different from the one revealed in the scriptures. If you were a Mormon, you'd know how to spell it.

:D :D :D

[Floatingaxe]

I read the transcript. (thank you for posting it!)

Fluff & Stuff.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/cottoncandy.jpg

[Nadiine]

My sister mailed me this link last night - it's an interview regarding Mormonism.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/12/pastor_joel_osteen_speaks_out.php

I remember one line he gave on Fox & that was being in agreement w/ Mormons about Jesus Christ... (sad, he didn't even know they define a different Jesus)!!

Anyways, I say RUN - this is no Shepherd.

[Cris413]

My sister mailed me this link last night - it's an interview regarding Mormonism.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/12/pastor_joel_osteen_speaks_out.php

I remember one line he gave on Fox & that was being in agreement w/ Mormons about Jesus Christ... (sad, he didn't even know they define a different Jesus)!!

Anyways, I say RUN - this is no Shepherd. Yes...I was pretty dismayed when I heard his statement regarding Romney and Mormonism.

I thought...a Pastor of 47,000 people doesn't know enough about other religions to teach his flock about counterfeits and false teaching???

This "I don't know enough" is not good enough. He should know enough. He has 47,000 people under his roof.

That is some serious accountability. We really need to pray for him and the people that are being fed the diet of "fluff and stuff" (it does look quite delicious and tempting Floatingaxe ;) )

I mean consider...they may be feeling all good about themselves now...but what's going to happen to them when the really tough stuff comes along.

How will they endure to the end being so malnourished?

They may be sheep with a positive attitude....but....weak sheep are vulnerable sheep...

Before I watched the Fox interview...I wasn't sure if Mr Osteen knew what he was doing...perhaps he was deceived into thinking he was doing the Lord's work.

And that may be part of it...but now I think he fully understands what his objective is. He simply rationalizes it as not everyone is called to be Billy Graham or some such...He's not evangelical...that's just not who he is or how God made him...but don't misunderstand...he does hope that people would get saved in the process.

What was also obvious in the interview was how many times he said "When I speak" all most as if he were being careful not to say..."when I teach" or "when I preach"

Honestly...if I didn't already know Lakewood is a church...or came in the middle of the interview...I'm not sure I would have put it together right away that he is a pastor.

47,000 people....:sigh:....and this is not counting his tv viewers...

Chris Wallace noted Lakewood is THE largest AND fastest growing church in the country.

:groupray:

[IisJustMe]

And that may be part of it...but now I think he fully understands what his objective is. He simply rationalizes it as not everyone is called to be Billy Graham or some such...He's not evangelical...that's just not who he is or how God made him...but don't misunderstand...he does hope that people would get saved in the process. I don't know about that. I'm not even sure Joel is saved, or understands the concept. I don't think Norman Vincent Peale was saved. Both teach of personal renewal coming from within and we all know that's not where it comes from. I thought Chris Wallace did a good job of bringing that out without actually challenging Joel and starting a big fight on TV. Not that Joel would have fought. I don't think he has the gumption to do so, to stand up for what is right, because he doesn't know what is right.

[Cris413]

I don't know about that. I'm not even sure Joel is saved, or understands the concept. I don't think Norman Vincent Peale was saved. Both teach of personal renewal coming from within and we all know that's not where it comes from. I thought Chris Wallace did a good job of bringing that out without actually challenging Joel and starting a big fight on TV. Not that Joel would have fought. I don't think he has the gumption to do so, to stand up for what is right, because he doesn't know what is right.
Perhaps I should have been more clear (I was only on my first cup off coffee)...I believe his objective is to be popular and make money...I now think after watching the interview...that he totally understands he's a motivational speaker that inherited a church...(an audience that I might add...gives him tax exempt status)

Chris Wallace did a fine job of pointing out what Osteen's critics have to say...and Osteen himself knows there is validity to those criticisms...that's why he rationalized it the way he did...

...but I consider he understands the concept of salvation...I think it would have been quite hard to grow up around his father and not have an understanding of salvation and the need of our Savior.

ps..I personally wouldn't presume to know the man's heart (God does though) my prior post is simply stating my opinion from what I gleaned from the interview.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I watch him every Sunday night at midnight. He's actually a very inspriational speaker, I feel he is spirit filled.

You can check out his website here: http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_homepageThough I don't watch him myself, my wife sometimes does and his choir/band/singers appear to put out some pretty good music and songs.
Peace.

[Nadiine]

I like his globe

[IamRedeemed]

Yep. He even has said that he did not want to take over his Dad's ministry. He never had an interest in it. I can see where Itisjustme, could say that he isn't quite sure if Joel is saved or not though, because Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, therefore, we can know some things that are in a man's heart by the things he says and Joel Osteen has said on Larry King that he cannot say that Jesus is the only way to heaven and that he can't say that people that don't believe that are wrong. If I remember correctly, in the same line of questioning, he said we can't know people's hearts, in other words, he was saying it is possible that there are other ways to heaven and being a "good person" could be one of those ways. YIKES! :eek:

He had the opportunity to witness to Larry King and everyone watching, but it seemed he could not witness the way, because he did not know the way.


Perhaps I should have been more clear (I was only on my first cup off coffee)...I believe his objective is to be popular and make money...I now think after watching the interview...that he totally understands he's a motivational speaker that inherited a church...(an audience that I might add...gives him tax exempt status)

Chris Wallace did a fine job of pointing out what Osteen's critics have to say...and Osteen himself knows there is validity to those criticisms...that's why he rationalized it the way he did...

...but I consider he understands the concept of salvation...I think it would have been quite hard to grow up around his father and not have an understanding of salvation and the need of our Savior.

ps..I personally wouldn't presume to know the man's heart (God does though) my prior post is simply stating my opinion from what I gleaned from the interview.

[supermik3]

im confused

[IisJustMe]

im confusedNice to meet you, Confused ... but I thought your name was "supermik"?

[VCViking]

Paul Washer vs Joel Osteen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4EjygNheQk

[VCViking]

Paul Washer vs Joel Osteen, round 2 and down for the count.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7zcDFyUN_I&feature=related

[IamRedeemed]

Yikes, that is frightening. It makes me cringe to hear Joel give his answers! http://bestsmileys.com/scared/4.gif

I cracked up when who was that Todd Friel? (WTMradio) said in his background commentary,
"what about their sowel?" (souls)

Paul Washer vs Joel Osteen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4EjygNheQk

[Nadiine]

Ok, I just saw the fish plaque IWJO~!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe I just saw that.
:doh:

[Starcrystal]

This is still going? Wow.

[Nadiine]

This is still going? Wow.
I call it resurrection LOL

Actually a new video was added so... why not continue it instead of make a brand new thread
=)~

[IamRedeemed]

Joel's white washed, unScriptural answers just make me sick in my spirit. :sick::sick::sick:

Sending people to hell in a handbasket of deception.....but hey at least they
will "feel good" about themselves in this life, who cares about eternity!
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114122&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1205414951

Not so Joel!

Colossians 3:1-4
If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114123&stc=1&d=1205414951





Paul Washer vs Joel Osteen, round 2 and down for the count.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7zcDFyUN_I&feature=related

[IamRedeemed]

Fish plaque?

Ok, I just saw the fish plaque IWJO~!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe I just saw that.
:doh:

[IamRedeemed]

:thumbsup:

I call it resurrection LOL

Actually a new video was added so... why not continue it instead of make a brand new thread
=)~

[Nadiine]

1 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This verse in my opinion is one of the profound fulfillments of prophecy imo (outside those of Christ of course) -

Along with a falling away from the faith. We're basically seeing the shift now - those who have left to follow doctrines of demons.

[IamRedeemed]

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114125&stc=1&d=1205415489

This verse in my opinion is one of the profound fulfillments of prophecy imo (outside those of Christ of course) -

Along with a falling away from the faith. We're basically seeing the shift now - those who have left to follow doctrines of demons.

[IisJustMe]

Unfortunately, the bottom line for those who sit under Joel's teaching is, "If this makes me feel good, it must be right." This is what Paul was talking about when he wrote to his protégé Timothy:

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires ... (II Timothy 4:3)

Of course they would all be offended if you suggested this verse applied to them. Most of them also adhere to the prosperity gospel, probably think speaking in tongues is valid, and that personal prophecy is still active through "prophets" instead of directly from God.

We can decry his influence and give our opinions, but turning people away from Joel Osteen is probably more difficult than turning people away from sin and toward Jesus.

[Grateful4God]

I agree with most of the statements in here. Except for those who say speaking in tonges is not valid. It is a gift and very biblical.

[IisJustMe]

I agree with most of the statements in here. Except for those who say speaking in tonges is not valid. It is a gift and very biblical.Nope. Ended with the close of the canon. But that's not something that should divide us. No offense, I pray.

[Grateful4God]

Nope. Ended with the close of the canon. But that's not something that should divide us. No offense, I pray.
Please show me something that backs this up.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Don't derail guys . . .

[Grateful4God]

Fair enough, sorry for going off topic.

I have been MIA for a while here. I would like to hear some more opinion on talking in tongues. Can you point me in the right direction?

[IisJustMe]

Fair enough, sorry for going off topic.

I have been MIA for a while here. I would like to hear some more opinion on talking in tongues. Can you point me in the right direction?Yeah, let's not derail. There a lot of threads on this forum, the Baptist forum, and other forums on which I and others have posted links and those opinions. I'll try to find some time to research them and PM you a couple links, but in seven minutes I've got my first appt of the day, so I better pull this couple's file so I can try to help them. God bless.

[Kelly]

I think the best Joel can do is indirectly create a spark in someone to seek the full gospel.

[Nadiine]

I think the best Joel can do is indirectly create a spark in someone to seek the full gospel.
Well I have no doubt whatsoever that God can work thru good or unqualified people.

I just wish he'd change his title to motivational speaker and mention that he bases his teachings on SOME of the bible's principles.
I think that would be more accurate and please most everybody.

[IisJustMe]

I think the best Joel can do is indirectly create a spark in someone to seek the full gospel.I think if someone had the grounding or desire to do that, they wouldn't be listening to Joel Osteen in the first place. Anyone with any discernment at all (a requirement for teaching) would realize he doesn't preach the gospel.

[Lightbearer3]

I've only really listened to him once. And it was kind of funny, because I've learned that when God wants me to learn something or is trying to get something through to me, I'll start reading and hearing the same thing over and over. Like, I'll read something in the Bible pertaining to that topic, then something will come in my email dealing with that, or I may read something in a magazine or hear it on the radio.
So, awhile back, there was this one topic that for some reason God wanted me to 'grasp'. And I kept coming across it in everything. I came home from work one day and turned on the tv. It just happened to be on whatever channel Joel was on and he was talking about that very topic!!
So, I believe that God can use him. I've heard many people say he preaches fluff, doesn't preach the whole gospel, etc. and maybe he doesn't. I can't pass that judgment since I've not really listened to him. But, that doesn't mean that someone isn't helped by something he says.


This is the way that God often speaks to me also, and He confirms His Word through anyone He choses.

I agree also that I will not speak against this pastor. His father was used greatly by God.

God uses vessels in his service to preach different messages, some preach healing, others focus on faith, they do what God calls them to do and preach what God tells them to preach. When the deciples came to Jesus and told him that there were others using His name that were not of them, Jesus said: Forbid them not.....for he that is not against us is on our part.

A kingdom divided against itself can not stand.

It is better to pray for him if his message is wrong than to bash him, if grace is what we desire should we not also extend it to others?

Who are we to judge another man's servant?To his own master he stands or falls. Yea he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

But why do you judge your brother? Why do you set at nought your brother? For we shall all stand at the judgement seat of Christ. Romans 14:10

[Nadiine]

This is the way that God often speaks to me also, and He confirms His Word through anyone He choses.

I agree also that I will not speak agaist this pastor. His father was used greatly by God.

God uses vessels in his service to preach different messages, some preach healing, others focus on faith, they do what God calls them to do and preach what God tells them to preach. When the deciples came to Jesus and told him that there were others using His name that were not of them, Jesus said: Forbid them not.....for he that is not against us is on our part.

A kingdom divided against itself can not stand.

It is better to pray for him if his message is wrong than to bash him, if grace is what we desire should we not also extend it to others?

Who are we to judge another man's servant?To his own master he stands or falls. Yea he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

But why do you judge your brother? Why do you set at nought your brother? For we shall all stand at the judgement seat of Christ. Romans 14:10





This man has put himself in a position of pastoral authority - I WILL judge a 'brother' when they are not doing their job as a Pastor -
he's technically a motivational speaker using a few bible verses in the process.

1 Cor 5 also calls us to judge those inside the church - not outside of it.
Those in positions he's taken are under scrutinity becuz of the spiritual authority he places himself in. I would warn anybody listening to him as their "steady spritual diet".
And if they are, it's my assertion/opinion that theymay be complacent with secular growth over a close relationship with the Lord in maturity. IF that's what they want, then great, they chose the right teacher.

We speak out against teachers who are poor or leaders who harm people in their practices... why is a Pastor exempt from this?

[Kelly]

The whole 'judging' acusation gets thrown out a lot more than it should. Jesus said to beware of wolf in sheep's clothing. How do we do that without drawing some basic conclusions about a spiritual leader's teachings and express our opinion when it's brought up?

Nobody is saying Joel doesn't believe in Jesus or is going to Hell, or the state of his repentance to sin - the types of things one typically speaks of when throwing out judgement accusations. Leading the flock astray is a BIG mistake as Jesus says. It has reprocusions in the afterlife.

[Nadiine]

The whole 'judging' acusation gets thrown out a lot more than it should. Jesus said to beware of wolf in sheep's clothing. How do we do that without drawing some basic conclusions about a spiritual leader's teachings and express our opinion when it's brought up?

Nobody is saying Joel doesn't believe in Jesus or is going to Hell, or the state of his repentance to sin - the types of things one typically speaks of when throwing out judgement accusations. Leading the flock astray is a BIG mistake as Jesus says. It has reprocusions in the afterlife.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I totally agree with this post - anyone in a place of spiritual authority should be under more scrutiny than those who are not.
It's a serious responsibility - esp. when reading James 3:1 that teachers will judged much more harshly.

[IamRedeemed]

:amen::preach:

This man has put himself in a position of pastoral authority - I WILL judge a 'brother' when they are not doing their job as a Pastor -
he's technically a motivational speaker using a few bible verses in the process.

1 Cor 5 also calls us to judge those inside the church - not outside of it.
Those in positions he's taken are under scrutinity becuz of the spiritual authority he places himself in. I would warn anybody listening to him as their "steady spritual diet".
And if they are, it's my assertion/opinion that theymay be complacent with secular growth over a close relationship with the Lord in maturity. IF that's what they want, then great, they chose the right teacher.

We speak out against teachers who are poor or leaders who harm people in their practices... why is a Pastor exempt from this?

The whole 'judging' acusation gets thrown out a lot more than it should. Jesus said to beware of wolf in sheep's clothing. How do we do that without drawing some basic conclusions about a spiritual leader's teachings and express our opinion when it's brought up?

Nobody is saying Joel doesn't believe in Jesus or is going to Hell, or the state of his repentance to sin - the types of things one typically speaks of when throwing out judgement accusations. Leading the flock astray is a BIG mistake as Jesus says. It has reprocusions in the afterlife.

[3DSabbath07]

I believe Joel Osteen is what the Bible teaches about when it says that people will preach to you only to "tickle your ears." In other words, Joel does not tackle any major topic in the bible, he only preaches to make you feel good and tells you what you want to hear. If someone asked him which day the Sabbath was on, he would be completely lost in thought and probably just tell you to stay motivated and not even answer you directly.

Summary, Joel has some good messages.....just don't base your entire faith on his messages.....He is basically a motivational speaker and not an actual bible based, doctrine tackling, change the world by truth pastor.

God Bless and I hope this helps.

[Zecryphon]

Well I have no doubt whatsoever that God can work thru good or unqualified people.

I just wish he'd change his title to motivational speaker and mention that he bases his teachings on SOME of the bible's principles.
I think that would be more accurate and please most everybody.
What Joel Osteen does is he preaches the Christian rather than preaching the Christ.

[Lightbearer3]

This man has put himself in a position of pastoral authority - I WILL judge a 'brother' when they are not doing their job as a Pastor -
he's technically a motivational speaker using a few bible verses in the process.

1 Cor 5 also calls us to judge those inside the church - not outside of it.
Those in positions he's taken are under scrutinity becuz of the spiritual authority he places himself in. I would warn anybody listening to him as their "steady spritual diet".
And if they are, it's my assertion/opinion that theymay be complacent with secular growth over a close relationship with the Lord in maturity. IF that's what they want, then great, they chose the right teacher.

We speak out against teachers who are poor or leaders who harm people in their practices... why is a Pastor exempt from this?

Not exempt, either judged or blessed by God. God uses different spokesmen/women to bring in a deversity of fish.

I love to hear T.D Jakes Preach, no doubt there are many who don't. If I had my choice in choosing between the two of them I would choose Jakes over Olsteen.

I've seen the anointing on people that I thought were fake until I heard the voice within the voice as they spoke.

As much as I would like to add my comments about his sermons, I will not.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Not exempt, either judged or blessed by God. God uses different spokesmen/women to bring in a deversity of fish.

I love to hear T.D Jakes Preach, no doubt there are many who don't. If I had my choice in choosing between the two of them I would choose Jakes over Olsteen.

I've seen the anointing on people that I thought were fake until I heard the voice within the voice as they spoke.

As much as I would like to add my comments about his sermons, I will not.
Anointing is NOT the judge . . . neither the "voice in the voice" BOTH CAN BE FAKED. Doctrine is the judge . . . Osteen really has NONE (and the little he has is bad) . . . and Jakes has false (denying Trinity).

The test is doctrine. It must be held in LOVE, but it must be held.

[IisJustMe]

Anointing is NOT the judge . . . neither the "voice in the voice" BOTH CAN BE FAKED. Doctrine is the judge . . . Osteen really has NONE (and the little he has is bad) . . . and Jakes has false (denying Trinity).

The test is doctrine. It must be held in LOVE, but it must be held.http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:B_Ur4EBNGdZ0jM:http://www.haccpman.com/assets/images/pointing_finger.gif
What he said ...

Lightbearer, I wouldn't choose either one of them. I'll take Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, Tony Evans or the late Dr. D. James Kennedy over both of 'em.

[Nadiine]

I actually heard a pentecostal pastor on tv preach that EVERY CHRISTIAN IS ANNOINTED BY GOD.

That this "annointing" as if you aren't 'annointed' by God prior to doing something is a farse in the Christian community.
ALL are "annointed" if a believer, but it doesn't ensure success.

In Osteens' case, I question if he's even annointed. - any new ager uses terms about God & Jesus and the 'goodness' and 'love'.... but listen to them in detail AFTER you get off of the 'fluff' and then you'll start seeing the real worldviews come out.

He couldn't even admit the truth of the gospel on TV - and he's preaching?? He sticks God's words in the BACK of his books in case somebody might want to look them up!
HIS WORDS TAKE PRECEDENCE over God's own instead of using them thru the book. He admitted it was on purpose.
I've heard enough of this man to know when to run.

If you don't share the same, that's fine. I use strict discernment in who I let teach me anything and honestly, I could listen to any motivational speaker who has very good morals & bleieves in God and get about the same education.

[maeda]

hello everyone:wave: i believe that joel osteen is really using by a Holy Spirit:) joel osteen sermon is very encouraging..

[maeda]

everybody wasn't have a the same opinion..and this is my opinion co'z when i heard and saw on line joel osteen i really feel blessed and refresh..joel osteen is a nice pastor and i believe he is annoited..

[Lightbearer3]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:B_Ur4EBNGdZ0jM:http://www.haccpman.com/assets/images/pointing_finger.gif
What he said ...

Lightbearer, I wouldn't choose either one of them. I'll take Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, Tony Evans or the late Dr. D. James Kennedy over both of 'em.


I love to hear all those pastors preach also, esp. Stanley, Like Swindoll also, Tony Evans is great, they are all awesome.

It takes the ears of the Spirit to "hear" the anointing. Healings can be faked, false teachers do arise, but I do have ears to hear the anointing of the Spirit of God, and that can't be faked.

[Cris413]

I love to hear all those pastors preach also, esp. Stanley, Like Swindoll also, Tony Evans is great, they are all awesome.

It takes the ears of the Spirit to "hear" the anointing. Healings can be faked, false teachers do arise, but I do have ears to hear the anointing of the Spirit of God, and that can't be faked.

Yes...wonderfully anointed pastor/teachers...never once in the many times I've listened to these men preach/teach did a red flag ever go up that made me think..."hey...wait a minute???" :confused:

I would also add RC Sproul and Billy Graham to that list.

[PattyOfurniture]

This man has put himself in a position of pastoral authority - I WILL judge a 'brother' when they are not doing their job as a Pastor -
he's technically a motivational speaker using a few bible verses in the process.

1 Cor 5 also calls us to judge those inside the church - not outside of it.
Those in positions he's taken are under scrutinity becuz of the spiritual authority he places himself in. I would warn anybody listening to him as their "steady spritual diet".
And if they are, it's my assertion/opinion that theymay be complacent with secular growth over a close relationship with the Lord in maturity. IF that's what they want, then great, they chose the right teacher.

We speak out against teachers who are poor or leaders who harm people in their practices... why is a Pastor exempt from this?
lets not get carried away.were all Human Beings and put our trousers on the same way,1 leg at a time.I'm wondering how many people Joel has brought to Christ in the past lets use the figure 3 months or so e.g.and how many any of us have in that same period of time.btw, where is the verse that says to Judge a Pastor?
if i had no sin, i would pick up a stone and get in line with the rest of you guys....

[Artificial Intelligence]

or the late Dr. D. James Kennedy over both of 'em. I like Kennedy quite a bit, listen to his sermons often, though definitely don’t agree with some of his views, mainly concerning eschatology and replacement theology (I know, not the terminology for it), but he is strong on family value teachings, even though I disagree on some of his points of views. But he was always up front with true repentance, the need to turn away from sin and to God, not as some gizmo you pull the arm of and it drops health and wealth into your pockets, but the real need for a Saviour, and the only way to the real living God.
Joel Osteen? One exclamation to offer: RUN! …and don’t look back.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/osteen.htm <== He is a false teacher, plain and simple.

[Nadiine]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/osteen.htm <== He is a false teacher, plain and simple.
Great link, thanks for posting it.

[Zecryphon]

lets not get carried away.were all Human Beings and put our trousers on the same way,1 leg at a time.I'm wondering how many people Joel has brought to Christ in the past lets use the figure 3 months or so e.g.and how many any of us have in that same period of time.btw, where is the verse that says to Judge a Pastor?
if i had no sin, i would pick up a stone and get in line with the rest of you guys....
I'm wondering if he's ever brought anyone to Christ and if so, how he did it. Because there is absolutely no reason for anyone listening to a Joel Osteen sermon to come to Christ. The reason people come to Christ is for forgiveness of sin. Joel never preaches about sin, he considers it a downer. So why are people coming to Christ through Joel's preaching, if they're coming at all?