Lost Tomb of Jesus (Live Discussion)

[RayJGentry]

Well, I'm watching "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" right now and figured we could have a discussion going on while we're watching it and afterwards. It's airing on the Discovery channel right now. I won't post anything more until I know there are some people to discuss with, so if you're watching it, let me know and let's get this party started!! God Bless!

[LilLamb219]

I didn't watch it, but my pastor read something that the secretary found written by Dr. Paul Maier a noted Lutheran author who is also a great historian. His response can be found here: http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/Maier%20on%20Jesus%20Family%20Tomb.pdf

Dr. Jeffrey Kloha's response is here...but I haven't read it yet, just saw it on the LCMS website.

http://www.csl.edu/Img/about%20csl/LostTomb.pdf

[RayJGentry]

well, it's still on right now. for another 50 minutes on the discovery channel.

[C.F.W. Walther]

More "Junk on Jesus" Like Dr. Maier says. It's just another phenomenom to discredit Christianity. True Christians won't fall for this as they havn't fallen for the DiVinci Code

[RayJGentry]

i understand, and do agree, but i think it's healthy for us to talk about what's being said. it's had to defend our position if we don't know the position others will be taking after this airs.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Just read the links that LiLamb posted. It's a good start.

[porterross]

Sorry, Ray. We're watching Arsenic and Old Lace instead. It's far more entertaining. ;)

[C.F.W. Walther]

Midsomer murders is even better :)

[KagomeShuko]

My dad is watching some murder/dectective show.
My mom and sister are watching some show about making yogurt.
I'm not watching anything.

Sounds about right.

[porterross]

Midsomer murders is even better :)
I record those on the DVR, but I do miss Troy. Many of them are filmed near my sweetie's home in England. Beautiful, isn't it?

[C.F.W. Walther]

Yep, as a junior geezer I'm beginning to really enjoy Midsomer, Poirot, Holmes and Agatha Christie dramas. Also been getting Christie. Nancy Drew, CSI, ER and Law and Order Crime drama PC games. I Like the mystery "stuff".

[DaRev]

I didn't watch it, but my pastor read something that the secretary found written by Dr. Paul Maier a noted Lutheran author who is also a great historian. His response can be found here: http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/Maier%20on%20Jesus%20Family%20Tomb.pdf

Dr. Jeffrey Kloha's response is here...but I haven't read it yet, just saw it on the LCMS website.

http://www.csl.edu/Img/about%20csl/LostTomb.pdf

Dr. Kloha's article is excellent. He was a professor of mine in seminary. He taught "Synoptic Gospels (with a thorough study of Mark's Gospel)" and "New Testament Text Criticism." He knows his stuff!

[IowaLutheran]

I watched the film itself (I fell asleep during part of it, not because it wasn't interesting, but because I was tired after shoveling snow all weekend) plus the hour long discussion afterwards with the film's director and various professors/theologians.

Obviously, the conclusions drawn are inconsistent with orthodox Christianity, and the science behind it has many "ifs" at every link in the chain.

Nevertheless, the conclusions drawn by the film have now been thrown out there for public consumption, and I think we will be asked serious questions about it by inquirers, and we had better be ready with some good answers.

[Studeclunker]

Lamb, I would really, really, like to see what your links lead to. Unfortuneately, my version of (Eh? Oh, Hell!) AOL won't let me do so. Or maybe it's Adobe. I have it, but it refuses to work.

Could I bother someone to convert the information?

[RayJGentry]

i agree. i don't think it was at all conclusive or anything, but it's something we have to be ready to talk about. otherwise we'll seem ignorant. if you're having trouble dealing with the pdf files try foxit reader (http://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/)

it's a lot more streamlined and simple program and works a lot better than adobe in my opinion.

[Edial]

Watched 2nd part and the discussion afterwards.

One of the keys that the reputable archaeologists were disputing is the presentation of Mary Margalene as called Mariamne on the ossuary.

A quick Google search presents Mariamne as a real name in itself as Herod's 2nd wife ...
Mariamne (name)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mariamne is a name frequently used in the Herodian royal house. In Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) it is spelled Μαριάμη (Mariame) by Josephus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus); in some editions of his work the second m is doubled (Mariamme). In later copies of those editions the spelling was dissimilated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilation) to its now most common form, Mariamne. In Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), Mariamne is known as מִרְיָם, (Miriam), as in the traditional, Biblical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible) name (see Miriam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam), the sister of Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses) and Aaron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron)); Mariamne is the Hellenized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) version of the Hebrew, as Koine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek) was a common language in the late Hasmonean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean) era in Judea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea) (together with Aramaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic),) where both Mariamnes lived.
Holders include:

Mariamne (second wife of Herod) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamne_%28second_wife_of_Herod%29), aka Mariamne I
Mariamne (third wife of Herod) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamne_%28third_wife_of_Herod%29), aka Mariamne II
Mariamne III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamne_III), sister of Herodias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodias)
Mariamne (daughter of Herod Agrippa I) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariamne_%28daughter_of_Herod_Agrippa_I%29), a daughter of Agrippa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippa_I).......

Also, Mariamne as Mary was taken from the Gospel of Phillip of the 4th century.
But nowhere was Mary called Mariamne in the 1st century. Nowhere.

.......

The way they came with calculating the probabilities of 600 to 1 was also questioned.

There were so many "if" to come up with that probability that in my opinion today's oddsmakers in Vegas would just laugh it off.

I found the show troublesome, since they presented it in such a quality entertaining manner that it gave off an impression of validity.

It is bunk. Cheep propaganda that was presented in a quality presentation format.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

Lamb, I would really, really, like to see what your links lead to. Unfortuneately, my version of (Eh? Oh, Hell!) AOL won't let me do so. Or maybe it's Adobe. I have it, but it refuses to work.

Could I bother someone to convert the information?
"The Jesus Family Tomb"
February 27, 2007
Dear Friends and Readers,
Thanks for the profusion of e-mails I’ve received over the last two days regarding the Talpiot tombs discovery in Jerusalem, a.k.a., "the Jesus Family Tomb" story. Some of you also suggested that "life seemed to be following art" so far as my A Skeleton in God’s Closet was concerned. Believe me, this is not the way I wanted my novel to hit the visual media!
Alas, this whole affair is just the latest in the long-running media attack on the historical Jesus, which I call "More Junk on Jesus." We all thought it had culminated in that book of falsehoods, The Da Vinci Code. But no: The caricatures of Christ continue.
Please, lose no sleep over the Talpiot "discoveries" for the following reasons, and here are the facts:
(1) Nothing is new here: Scholars have known about the ossuaries ever since March of 1980, so this is old news recycled. The general public learned about the ossuaries when the BBC filmed a documentary on them in 1996, and the "findings" tanked again. James Tabor’s book, The Jesus Dynasty, also made a big fuss over the Talpiot tombs more recently, and now James Cameron ("Titanic") and Simcha Jacobovici have climbed aboard the sensationalist bandwagon as well. Another book comes out today, equally as worthless as the previous.
(2) All the names—Yeshua (Joshua, Jesus), Joseph, Maria, Mariamene, Matia, Judah, and Jose—are extremely common Jewish names for that time and place, and thus nearly all scholars consider that these names are merely coincidental, as they did from the start. Some scholars dispute that "Yeshua" is even one of the names. One out of four Jewish women at that time, for example, was named Maria. There are 21Yeshuas cited by Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian, who were important enough to be recorded by him, with many thousands of others that never made history. The wondrous mathematical odds hyped by Jacobovici that these names must refer to Jesus and His family are simply playing by numbers and lying by statistics.
(3) There is no reason whatever to equate "Mary Magdalene" with "Mariamene,"
as Jacobovici claims. And so what if her DNA is different from that of "Yeshua"? That particular "Mariamme" (as it is usually spelled today) could indeed have been the wife of that particular "Yeshua," who certainly was not Jesus.
(4) Why in the world would the "Jesus Family" have a burial site in Jerusalem, of all places, the very city that crucified Jesus? Galilee was their home. In Galilee they could have had such a family plot, not Judea. Besides all of which, church tradition and the earliest Christian historian, Eusebius of
Rev. Dr. Paul L. Maier, professor of ancient history at Western Michigan University and second vice-president of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, has received numerous questions about the alleged discovery by James Cameron, et al, of the burial remains of Jesus Christ. Dr. Maier offers these comments to help Christians know the real truth.
1
Caesarea, are unanimous in reporting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, died in Ephesus, where the apostle John, faithful to his commission from Jesus on the cross, had accompanied her.
(5) The "Jesus Family" simply could not have afforded the large crypt uncovered at Talpiot, which housed, or could have housed, 200 ossuaries.
6) If this were Jesus’ family burial site, what is Matthew doing there—if indeed "Matia" is thus to be translated?
(7) How come there is no tradition whatever— Christian, Jewish, or secular—that any part of the Holy Family was buried at Jerusalem?
(8) Please note the extreme bias of the director and narrator, Simcha Jacobovici. The man is an Indiana Jones wannabe who oversensationalizes anything he touches. You may have caught him on his TV special regarding The Exodus, in which he "explained" just about everything that still needed proving or explaining in the Exodus account in the Old Testament! It finally became ludicrous, and now he’s doing it again, though in reverse—this time attacking the Scriptural record. As for James Cameron, how do you follow the success of Titanic? Well, with an even more "titanic" story. He should have known better, and the television footage of the two making their drastic statements on Monday, February 26, was disgusting, and their subsequent claim that they respected Jesus nauseating.
9) Even Israeli authorities, who—were they anti-Christian—might have used this "discovery" to discredit Christianity, did not do so. Quite the opposite. Joe Zias, for example, for years the director of the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem, holds Jacobovici’s claims up for scorn and his documentary as "nonsense." Those involved in the project "have no credibility whatever," he added. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the conclusions in question fail to hold up by archaeological standards "but make for profitable television." William Dever, one of America’s most prominent archaeologists, said, "This would be amusing if it didn’t mislead so many people."
(10) Finally, and most importantly, there is no external literary or historical evidence whatever that Jesus’ family was interred together in a common burial place anywhere, let alone Jerusalem. The evidence, in fact, totally controverts all this in the case of Jesus: All four Gospels, the letters of St. Paul, and the common testimony of the early church state that Jesus rose from the dead, and did not leave His bones behind in any ossuary, as the current sensationalists claim.
Bottom line: This is merely naked hype, baseless sensationalism, and nothing less than a media fraud—"more junk on Jesus."
With warm regards,
Paul L. Maier, Ph.D., Litt.D.
Department of History
Western Michigan University

[porterross]

I found the show troublesome, since they presented it in such a quality entertaining manner that it gave off an impression of validity.

It is bunk. Cheep propaganda that was presented in a quality presentation format.

Thanks,
Ed


This is why I didn't watch it. It came on while I was still in the garage tinkering and my daughter was watching, thinking it was something historically accurate about Christ. Needless to say, she was getting upset by the time I came in the house and only the introduction and been shown. It took me a few minutes to explain things to her. Thankfully, my pastor had e-mailed us Dr. Maier's comments last week so I had resolved the issue for myself at that time.

My daughter's 13, BTW, most inquisitive, really enjoying worship these days and happy to learn about Jesus' life, but I can imagine that a lot of people who are not firmly grounded might become confused. It's all very sad, but also the reason we have to be careful about the level of influence we allow TV and the media to play in our homes, especially with our children.

That's the reason I couldn't watch it, Ray, and had to find something totally contrary for us to watch. ;) You're right, though. We need to be able to present the inaccuracies and flimsy premise of this theory and counter it with the truth of Scripture.

[IowaLutheran]

Thanks for sharing that, porterross. After about a half-hour, I sent my 11 year old to bed and told him that as Christians we believe differently than the movie. I could see the wheels turning in his brain about some of the claims made. So, I'll have to figure out how to get those issues cleared up for him. In retrospect, I wish I would not have let him watch it.

[porterross]

I know, Iowa, and I think this is an opportunity for us as parents to help our children find some foundational strength in truly understanding God's truth we are teaching them to believe. They will be faced with such bogus challenges all their lives as Christians, especially as conservatives, but it's a shame that so many in the world are ready and willing to equate our faith with folklore not unlike Santa Claus in an effort to confuse our children and plant seeds of doubt in their hearts.

The devil is wicked and will do anything to pull our children away from us and God and I hate him for it. Good thing I'm almost as mean when it comes to protecting my little angel.

[Studeclunker]

...He was a liar and a murderer from the beginning...

Some things never change.:sigh:

[Edial]

Thanks for sharing that, porterross. After about a half-hour, I sent my 11 year old to bed and told him that as Christians we believe differently than the movie. I could see the wheels turning in his brain about some of the claims made. So, I'll have to figure out how to get those issues cleared up for him. In retrospect, I wish I would not have let him watch it.
I do not have children.
But if I had a kid, I'd probably explain to him/her that about anyone could produce a program.
I'd probably show that it is important to see who is that person that produced the program.

But concerning the attraction of visual images - that's the tough one, since it permeates beyond words.

I would be interested to know how do parents handle such things.

Thanks,
Ed

[porterross]

Ed, all we have to do is point out the meanness in the world and the acts of those who reject Christ's love and our salvation. That and doing our best to live God pleasing lives and keeping His Word as the foremost guide for our home and lives serve as an example for our children to follow. It's not always easy, but the alternative is unacceptable.

What gets me most about presentations such as this is that the presenters have no idea how much children love Jesus and how damaging such hypotheses can be. God's power and sacrifice for our salvation cannot be reasoned away by logic. It is the purest love, which cannot be measured or quantified by science.

[C.F.W. Walther]

And then the responsibility falls back on the parents to be more firm in their faith and study the Word. It is going to get worse as we see how the world is marching more and more everyday to the beat of atheism. Just look at our new laws enacted that use Jefferson's quote of seperating the church and state. Look at the rapid rise of Islam and the Mormons.

We as Christian parents need to take the attitude of Christians that are being persecuted more and more everyday and be willing to live and die a Christian. I know this shatters the placid world we have been lulled into the last 50 years but it's going to get worse.