Lutheran Worship Service

[KimLCMS]

What is your favorite part of the Lutheran worship service? Mine is communion.

[ctay]

The sermon and communion

[Confess]

I like the confession and absolution

[KimLCMS]

I like confession and absolution as well; I guess I lumped that all together with communion.

[DaRev]

I truly love the beginning and the end...

...and everything in between!! :clap: :amen: :thumbsup:

[Edial]

What is your favorite part of the Lutheran worship service? Mine is communion.
Communion.

[Studeclunker]

I love the liturgy. There is so much to take comfort from in it. Throughout, there is constant reminders of God's grace and generosity.

David's song:
Create in me a clean heart oh God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with your free Spirit.

I really like this one too:
Let the vineyards be fruitful Lord,
and fill to the brim our cup of blessing.
Gather a harvest from the seeds that were sown,
that we may be fed with the bread of life.
Gather the hopes and dreams of all,
unite them with the prayers we offer now.
Grace our table with your presence,
and give us a foretaste of the feast to come.

[RedneckAnglican]

I always liked the Lutheran Confession...

"We confess that we are in bondage to sin and can not free ourselves"...

it's very freeing...I wish the Anglicans used that one...

[KagomeShuko]

I don't have a favorite. . .I love it all! It is so interesting to study what each part means, too. I loved doing that, reading the information in the front of the LBW. . .which let me see the same things in the HS1991 and WOV (though, St. Paul has never used the worship service in the WOV).

[DaSeminarian]

I always liked the Lutheran Confession...

"We confess that we are in bondage to sin and can not free ourselves"...

it's very freeing...I wish the Anglicans used that one...

We'll take you back. C'mon over.

[QuiltAngel]

All of it.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'd have to say the Service of Confession and Absolution, the Service of the Word, and the Service of the Sacrament....

Ha, but if I had to pick, I'd go with Holy Communion.

[Jim47]

Like everyone else I like the beginning, the end and everything in between, but one of my favorite parts is the reading of the OT and NT scriptures, and chanting the Psalms, and the confession and absolution.

My favorite service of the year is our mid-week Lenton service and the reading of the passion history. Its just hard to imagine how The Lord loved us so much when have done nothing deserving of His love. All eternity will not be long enough to sing His praises. :holy:

[ProfessorMom]

I truly love the beginning and the end...

...and everything in between!! :clap: :amen: :thumbsup:
Same with me. I too, truly love the whole service. :amen:

[LilLamb219]

I'm an antsy person and as much as I'd love to say I love all of it, I have a difficult time sitting still. Our pastor delivers great sermons, but they're 25 minutes in length and I'm ready to jump out of my seat at the end...I just am too hyper (too many sweets LOL). So, in thinking what is my favorite part, that's hard to say. I think of it more in terms of I love it that God calls me to worship and invites me to receive His gifts He has to offer...that's my favorite part. It humbles me that He does that for me.

[Edial]

I'm an antsy person and as much as I'd love to say I love all of it, I have a difficult time sitting still. Our pastor delivers great sermons, but they're 25 minutes in length and I'm ready to jump out of my seat at the end...I just am too hyper (too many sweets LOL). So, in thinking what is my favorite part, that's hard to say. I think of it more in terms of I love it that God calls me to worship and invites me to receive His gifts He has to offer...that's my favorite part. It humbles me that He does that for me.
One of the reasons I'd rather not sit at Baptist services is that their sermons could last as long as 45min.

For me, if the sermon is over 20 mins it needs to be great.

And if a great sermon is over 30 mins - I get lost.

This reminds me of the great Apostle Paul who put a guy to sleep by his loooong sermon and he fell off the window ledge and died.
Only by the grace of God he could "save his face" when he revived the guy. :)

AC 20:7 ... Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!" 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

:)
Thanks,
Ed

[C.F.W. Walther]

What is your favorite part of the Lutheran worship service? Mine is communion.hmmm....uh.....well.......lesse......uh.......

[porterross]

I'm an antsy person and as much as I'd love to say I love all of it, I have a difficult time sitting still. Our pastor delivers great sermons, but they're 25 minutes in length and I'm ready to jump out of my seat at the end...I just am too hyper (too many sweets LOL).



Oh, dear. Please remind of that so I never sit behind you. I don't like being distracted during the sermon. People who refuse to control their kids, fidget or fall asleep irritate me a bit. :sorry: I truly like to focus on what's being said.

As for my favorite part of the service, hmmmmm...I always prefer beginning on page 15 instead of page 5. ;)

[DaRev]

As for my favorite part of the service, hmmmmm...I always prefer beginning on page 15 instead of page 5. ;)

That would be page 184 in the LSB. :)

It's the service we're doing this Sunday.

[porterross]

That would be page 184 in the LSB. :)

It's the service we're doing this Sunday.
We don't have those yet and I don't know when we will. I'm sure your congregation is not small compared to ours.

[seajoy]

I like when the Lord blesses me and keeps me....and all that, at the end.

I like all the stuff before too! Don't get me wrong. But there's something about the Benediction that makes me smile. :)

[porterross]

Don't get me wrong. But there's something about the Benediction that makes me smile. :)


Lunch :confused:

[seajoy]

Lunch :confused:
I wasn't funning...really, it makes me smile! :)

Peace is something I cherish. :prayer:

And lunch is good too! :doh:

[DaRev]

We don't have those yet and I don't know when we will. I'm sure your congregation is not small compared to ours.

How many you have on Sunday AM?

[porterross]

How many you have on Sunday AM?
In the summer, we're lucky to have 25. When the winter visitors are here, we can get up to 40, but 30 is a fair average.

What's frustrating is that it's the same families that have been there since I was a kid except for one or two new ones. We are not growing and it's disheartening. I have my own theories, but it concerns me for our future.

[DaRev]

In the summer, we're lucky to have 25. When the winter visitors are here, we can get up to 40, but 30 is a fair average.

What's frustrating is that it's the same families that have been there since I was a kid except for one or two new ones. We are not growing and it's disheartening. I have my own theories, but it concerns me for our future.

We have a similar situation here.

When I arrived we averaged 72 per Sundat
A year later it was down to 65.
Last year it was down to 59.

It has been steadily declining for several years.
There's a lot of reasons.

The congregation is 85 years old. The average life expectancy of a congregation is the same as a human being. So I guess we're right on track.

We're trying to look into some outreach projects, looking particularly outside of the city, maybe to establishing a second location.

[C.F.W. Walther]

In the summer, we're lucky to have 25. When the winter visitors are here, we can get up to 40, but 30 is a fair average.

What's frustrating is that it's the same families that have been there since I was a kid except for one or two new ones. We are not growing and it's disheartening. I have my own theories, but it concerns me for our future.
That's exactly the amount we have on Sundays. We are a rural congregation and 150 years old and we are past due according to DaRev :)

[LilLamb219]

Oh, dear. Please remind of that so I never sit behind you. I don't like being distracted during the sermon. People who refuse to control their kids, fidget or fall asleep irritate me a bit. :sorry: I truly like to focus on what's being said.

Well, I'm a rocker. I have a tendency to rock myself...always have been that weird type of person. It's not a wild rock...but a gentle back and forth that I just do. I don't fidget too much really but I feel as if I'm going to just burst if I don't get to stand up after 20 minutes has passed!

[porterross]

We have a similar situation here.

When I arrived we averaged 72 per Sundat
A year later it was down to 65.
Last year it was down to 59.

It has been steadily declining for several years.
There's a lot of reasons.

The congregation is 85 years old. The average life expectancy of a congregation is the same as a human being. So I guess we're right on track.

We're trying to look into some outreach projects, looking particularly outside of the city, maybe to establishing a second location.


We do have more members, but many of them are home-bound and the pastor spends a great deal of time visiting and communing them at home, which is wonderful, but I know it stresses him even though he never says no. His wife had a good discussion about his obvious stress last week. It's really not good for anyone.

Strange thing is, except for two Air Force families, the congregation consists of the same families that were here when I was a kid, they are aging and not being replaced by new members. Obviously, in 5 years our membership will likely be half what it is now and those who do attend will likely no longer be able.

Our pastor is in the DELTO program and he is so busy that although he wants desperately for the church to grow, I'm not sure he's in much of a position to implement any plans to help that happen. The sad thing is, we have to watch a pentecostal group build a mega concert hall across the street. It seems more people want motivational speakers than pastoral care. :sigh:

Our problem is that we're rather isolated here and have no other populations to pull from. Our town is growing, though, so there is opportunity, we just need to take advantage of it.

What's our solution, fellow Lutherans? How do we get people to understand that without sound doctrine and focus on Scripture, they are missing the really good stuff? Is it the part about obeying all of God's laws that they don't want to hear?

[LilLamb219]

The good thing is you said your town is growing. Have you considered having a Lutheran Welcome Wagon? You could either personally meet up with the newcomers and invite them to worship or you can send them mailings welcoming them to the area.

[porterross]

Great idea and my being in the real estate business should make that pretty easy, huh? :doh:
I'm not really a very social or extroverted person, though and one of our issues is the lack of people with time and energy to tackle such things. Ugh!

Marketing is one my strong points so the mailouts are a great idea for my part...hmmm..I have everything we would need to get that going, too. I feel a new church website coming on as well. :D

Thanks, LilLamb.:thumbsup:

[Mary of Bethany]

Is there an online link to a Lutheran liturgy? I'd love to read through your liturgy.

Thanks!

Mary

[LilLamb219]

http://www.goodshepherd.nb.ca/liturgy/

Here's a liturgy with explanation.

[KimLCMS]

We have two Sunday services.
I;m not positive about attendence at first service (100 or200?) There are usually 300-400 at the second service. Then there are Sunday school classes for adults and children between services.

[ctay]

In the summer, we're lucky to have 25. When the winter visitors are here, we can get up to 40, but 30 is a fair average.

What's frustrating is that it's the same families that have been there since I was a kid except for one or two new ones. We are not growing and it's disheartening. I have my own theories, but it concerns me for our future.
The church I go to, the average when I first started going about 2 yrs ago was 50 a week, its been up to an average about 85 now. The church is about 6 or 7 yrs old.

[Jim47]

We do have more members, but many of them are home-bound and the pastor spends a great deal of time visiting and communing them at home, which is wonderful, but I know it stresses him even though he never says no. His wife had a good discussion about his obvious stress last week. It's really not good for anyone.

Strange thing is, except for two Air Force families, the congregation consists of the same families that were here when I was a kid, they are aging and not being replaced by new members. Obviously, in 5 years our membership will likely be half what it is now and those who do attend will likely no longer be able.

Our pastor is in the DELTO program and he is so busy that although he wants desperately for the church to grow, I'm not sure he's in much of a position to implement any plans to help that happen. The sad thing is, we have to watch a pentecostal group build a mega concert hall across the street. It seems more people want motivational speakers than pastoral care. :sigh:

Our problem is that we're rather isolated here and have no other populations to pull from. Our town is growing, though, so there is opportunity, we just need to take advantage of it.

What's our solution, fellow Lutherans? How do we get people to understand that without sound doctrine and focus on Scripture, they are missing the really good stuff? Is it the part about obeying all of God's laws that they don't want to hear?


We have found that ythe most effective means of promoting new groth is personal witnessing and persoanl invitations to family, freinds and neighbors. We have tried canvassing the near by housing developements but found no new prospects, while on the other hand when members do personal invitations they come.

[Jim47]

That's exactly the amount we have on Sundays. We are a rural congregation and 150 years old and we are past due according to DaRev :)



Our congregation is just over 100 years old. At one time we had almost 180 avg on Sunday service, but this was all baby boomers from my era. What happened was that as they became yound adults they went to college and then on to big cities where they could find big paying jobs. Out of my confirmation class of about 12 I am the only one left I believe.

Now we average about 90-100 on Sundays. A few years back we were donw to less then 80 on some Sundays, but now The Lord has blessed us with new members and some returns. We also have the aging congregation thing and we will continue to lose a lot of old time members. I think we lost about 8 last year.

[ctay]

Here's a story on the church my parents go to, I used to attend
http://www.cullmantimes.com/local/local_story_065000238.html

Only trouble I have with this church I go to and it being fairly new and small is that it doesn't have a whole lot to offer if you want to get involved in things. We did just start a women's bible study, I'd like to get involved in like outreach or helping others, maybe more bible studies. I've said something to the pastor about wanting to do more but I just get told I can't do everything, which I don't do much now.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Our congregation is just over 100 years old. At one time we had almost 180 avg on Sunday service, but this was all baby boomers from my era. What happened was that as they became yound adults they went to college and then on to big cities where they could find big paying jobs. Out of my confirmation class of about 12 I am the only one left I believe.

Now we average about 90-100 on Sundays. A few years back we were donw to less then 80 on some Sundays, but now The Lord has blessed us with new members and some returns. We also have the aging congregation thing and we will continue to lose a lot of old time members. I think we lost about 8 last year.You know Jim you hit the nail on the head. In Lutheran churches that is the forgotten generation. Betweeen high school graduation and kids comming back as married adults and/or career adults comming back to the church. A few denoms know how to remedy that problem but many denoms don't have a large percentage of college graduates as Lutherans do.

Not to be ignorant but Baptists really target that group. They fortunately have help because there are many kids that just get married out of high school and stay in the area. We still could learn alot from them. They've been doing it for a long time.

[Jim47]

You know Jim you hit the nail on the head. In Lutheran churches that is the forgotten generation. Betweeen high school graduation and kids comming back as married adults and/or career adults comming back to the church. A few denoms know how to remedy that problem but many denoms don't have a large percentage of college graduates as Lutherans do.

Not to be ignorant but Baptists really target that group. They fortunately have help because there are many kids that just get married out of high school and stay in the area. We still could learn alot from them. They've been doing it for a long time.


I think a lot of this has to do with whats important to you. I have always placed a high value on family, not only my own family but my exteneded church family as well. There are other places where i could live and do better then where I am. Michigan has about the lowest employment in the nation. Our property vaules are falling etc, but to me home is where the heart is. I am so happy that both of my kids live only a few minutes from me.

As for church growth, simple invitations to folks you know are very effective. For me this is hard, cause I my office is 40 miles from where I live and I have no outside social activity outside of church. I guess I could invite some deliquent members heh? ;)

[porterross]

You know Jim you hit the nail on the head. In Lutheran churches that is the forgotten generation. Betweeen high school graduation and kids comming back as married adults and/or career adults comming back to the church. A few denoms know how to remedy that problem but many denoms don't have a large percentage of college graduates as Lutherans do.

Not to be ignorant but Baptists really target that group. They fortunately have help because there are many kids that just get married out of high school and stay in the area. We still could learn alot from them. They've been doing it for a long time.
That's very true, Rad, but given our doctrine and focus on the "teachings" of the Bible, it's not surprising. That's one of our problems here. With the AF base, the new people we get who are confirmed Lutherans are attached to the base and pilots are only here 2-3 years at best.
Even then, being young and single there is not a lot that is offered them other than one early Sunday service. That's tough for a lot of us, but unless we grow, we can't justify another service. It's a negative cycle we're in and it has to change.

[DaRev]

That's very true, Rad, but given our doctrine and focus on the "teachings" of the Bible, it's not surprising. That's one of our problems here. With the AF base, the new people we get who are confirmed Lutherans are attached to the base and pilots are only here 2-3 years at best.
Even then, being young and single there is not a lot that is offered them other than one early Sunday service. That's tough for a lot of us, but unless we grow, we can't justify another service. It's a negative cycle we're in and it has to change.

Starting this Sunday we are changing our service time from 9:00am to 10:15am, and moving Sunday School/Adult Bible Study to 9:00am from 10:15.
While this might have some adverse effect on the Sunday School, we are trying to promote regular worship attendance with our own members, many of whom told me that a later service time would help. The elders have agreed to try this for three months (through June 3rd which is Confirmation Sunday) and then revert back to 9:00am for the summer (it gets rather warm in the sanctuary in the summer... even at 9:00am!). I have made it known to them that this would need to continue for at least a year to see if it has any impact, not only on our own members attendance, but on our outreach efforts. I just hope the they don't get talked out of it.. as has happened with them in the past. :sigh:

[C.F.W. Walther]

I was thinking that each church that has kids in college has a record of them and that record could be sent to some central registry in LCMS and then churches in the area that the kids are at college or tech school could invite the Lutheran kids in the colleges.

Focus would be on services and activities that would help keep the kids in the church. I know college has "skads" of activities for them and draws them away from church groups but I think that we could retain more of our children if we payed attention to them and minister to their needs. I think that would be a greater focus than the Ablaze idea. Strengthening our base.

[Studeclunker]

Property values aren't falling in all of Michigan. I have a friend that is losing the farm that four generations of his family have lived on. The property values have climbed so high in his area that he can't pay the taxes anymore. About the only good thing about California is Proposition 13 and it's protection of long term property owners. It's too bad that all the states didn't put the initiative system in their constitutions.

The church I go to when I can, unfortuneately rarely, in Redding is over a hundred or so years old. They seem to have an avarage attendance of around 80 to 90 people on the Sundays I've attended. The chapel is one of those A-frame affairs that's decorated in very sixties modern. The place is well kept up. Looking at the over-all facilities, I suspect that they had a much larger congregation at one time.

[DaRev]

I was thinking that each church that has kids in college has a record of them and that record could be sent to some central registry in LCMS and then churches in the area that the kids are at college or tech school could invite the Lutheran kids in the colleges.

Focus would be on services and activities that would help keep the kids in the church. I know college has "skads" of activities for them and draws them away from church groups but I think that we could retain more of our children if we payed attention to them and minister to their needs. I think that would be a greater focus than the Ablaze idea. Strengthening our base.

That is a great idea! :thumbsup: I wish I knew whether or not there were any LCMS students at the Penn State campus near by. The college keeps no such records, but it would be great if home congregations had a database where they could list those members who are in college and where they are so local congregations could invite those students to church. It could also be a great form of outreach to unchurched college students as well.

Maybe I'll pose this to the higher ed people at synod.

[BigNorsk]

Property values aren't falling in all of Michigan. I have a friend that is losing the farm that four generations of his family have lived on. The property values have climbed so high in his area that he can't pay the taxes anymore. About the only good thing about California is Proposition 13 and it's protection of long term property owners. It's too bad that all the states didn't put the initiative system in their constitutions.

The church I go to when I can, unfortuneately rarely, in Redding is over a hundred or so years old. They seem to have an avarage attendance of around 80 to 90 people on the Sundays I've attended. The chapel is one of those A-frame affairs that's decorated in very sixties modern. The place is well kept up. Looking at the over-all facilities, I suspect that they had a much larger congregation at one time.

What we did in North Dakota was relatively simple, we revised the property tax system. Farmland is taxed based on it's productivity, not on what it would sell for. That way a guy who wants to farm isn't driven off by taxes.

In a lot of places people are using perpetual easements to destroy the value of the land and drive down the taxes. That's stupid in my mind. Forever is a long time, and future generations should not be so tied by a situation created just to control taxes today.

Marv

[Studeclunker]

You're right Marv. Short term management is never a good solution. I like what your state did with farm land. It really shouldn't be taxed like residential or business property. After all, farm land is what feeds us. It's not good that we are exponentially increasing our farm imports and building on all the farm land in sight. Not good at all. Of course, I never thought I'd see the day when tomatoes were more expensive than avocadoes!:eek:

Porter, perhaps your board needs to understand that not everyone likes getting up before dawn for church. Perhaps having your services at ten or eleven o'clock might be a good idea. You could have Sunday School first. This might attract more of the people from the base. Also, your community members might be a bit more interested as well. I know well however, how hard it is to get the old members to accept a change like this, "Why should we change? We've done it this way for sixty years! Why change now?" As membership shrinks...

[porterross]

I was thinking that each church that has kids in college has a record of them and that record could be sent to some central registry in LCMS and then churches in the area that the kids are at college or tech school could invite the Lutheran kids in the colleges.

Focus would be on services and activities that would help keep the kids in the church. I know college has "skads" of activities for them and draws them away from church groups but I think that we could retain more of our children if we payed attention to them and minister to their needs. I think that would be a greater focus than the Ablaze idea. Strengthening our base.
You're exactly right, Rad. I attended one of the largest universities in the country and even though it is in a rather small town, the Lutheran churches there did not reach out to us that I remember and there were several of them.
I attended services a few times, but there wasn't anything announced there or around campus that related to activities to hold my attention or get me interested in being involved. Some of that is my fault because I was painfully shy back then, but still, had there been an effort to even get my address or phone number it would have made a difference....in a great many ways!
I was content to attend services mostly when I was home for the weekend and felt comfortable. I'm sure that's pretty normal.
Think of how quickly Habitat houses would go up with the energy of a few dozen college students harnessed every few days. WOW!!!

[LilLamb219]

Da Rev, have you considered having some PR in the newspaper to promote this to the community?

I used to belong to a ELCA church and I stopped going there when I got out of high school and went to art school. When I got married, I dragged my husband back there, but they had changed the times of the services!!!! They had the same times for about 40 years and then changed it and I walked in during communion! :blush: We were embarrassed. My fault for just assuming things wouldn't change...they changed more than the time though unfortunately :o

Starting this Sunday we are changing our service time from 9:00am to 10:15am, and moving Sunday School/Adult Bible Study to 9:00am from 10:15.
While this might have some adverse effect on the Sunday School, we are trying to promote regular worship attendance with our own members, many of whom told me that a later service time would help. The elders have agreed to try this for three months (through June 3rd which is Confirmation Sunday) and then revert back to 9:00am for the summer (it gets rather warm in the sanctuary in the summer... even at 9:00am!). I have made it known to them that this would need to continue for at least a year to see if it has any impact, not only on our own members attendance, but on our outreach efforts. I just hope the they don't get talked out of it.. as has happened with them in the past. :sigh:

[DaRev]

Da Rev, have you considered having some PR in the newspaper to promote this to the community?

I did send an announcement to the local paper last week, but it ran under a cloumn called "Briefs" and only one person in the church saw it, mainly because he was looking specifically for it. I did submit another article but I do not know if it ever ran. The newspaper here isn't all that reliable.

It isn't as bad as making the service earlier than normal. For folks who do show up early, they will be invited to stay for Bible study and then the service.

[DaSeminarian]

Da Rev,

Did you mean to say that Sunday School which was originally at 10:15 is now going to be at 9:00 and church which was at 9 will be at 10:15?

I think that is what you meant but it is not what you said.

[DaRev]

Da Rev,

Did you mean to say that Sunday School which was originally at 10:15 is now going to be at 9:00 and church which was at 9 will be at 10:15?

I think that is what you meant but it is not what you said.


Starting this Sunday we are changing our service time from 9:00am to 10:15am, and moving Sunday School/Adult Bible Study to 9:00am from 10:15.



I believe that is exactly what I said.

I apologize if it was confusing.

[QuiltAngel]

Am wondering if churches near universities could get something in the university newspapers?

[ctay]

Seems like the colleges would let you put a flyer up somewhere or put some literature somewhere around campus. I think I finally talked our church into having someone send postcards out to visitors who signed the guestbook. Its gotten where we don't have anyone sometimes handing out the bulletins or greeting people coming in, I got the ball going on that too, one lady is going to set people every sunday to greet people.

[DaRev]

If it wasn't Lent I might say "Alleluia!!"

We had our first service this morning at our new time and there was a marked increase in attendance. Even saw a few people who haven't been in church in quite a while. It wasn't a massive increase in attendance, but it was noticible. I pray that more of our delinquents (I hate that word) will become aware of the change in time and return to regular attendance.

I was truly worried about this, but our Lord is a great God! :amen: :clap:

[DaSeminarian]

I believe that is exactly what I said.

I apologize if it was confusing.


It was confusing, but now that I re-read the post I see that you did state it correctly.

[porterross]

If it wasn't Lent I might say "Alleluia!!"

We had our first service this morning at our new time and there was a marked increase in attendance. Even saw a few people who haven't been in church in quite a while. It wasn't a massive increase in attendance, but it was noticible. I pray that more of our delinquents (I hate that word) will become aware of the change in time and return to regular attendance.

I was truly worried about this, but our Lord is a great God! :amen: :clap:
I'm not surprised. Our services are at 0900 and it's just tough. Most people have commitments on Saturdays and they do appreciate a little down time to enjoy Sunday mornings without being rushed to church.
An hour makes a huge difference and I imagine that 1030 would be even more ideal. 1100 is pushing it and during football season....well, you know.

[BigNorsk]

If you have a list, sending a postcard with the new times to all members would be a way to promote trying the new service time, and it wouldn't cost very much. A lot of people just don't read announcements and such in the newpaper.

Marv

[DaRev]

If you have a list, sending a postcard with the new times to all members would be a way to promote trying the new service time, and it wouldn't cost very much. A lot of people just don't read announcements and such in the newpaper.

Marv

I have thought seriously about that. We also have a Wednesday evening service for Lent but I am going to continue that after Easter. We need to promote that one as well.

[DaRev]

and during football season....well, you know.

But the games don't start 'til 1 o'clock in the east. :D

[porterross]

I have thought seriously about that. We also have a Wednesday evening service for Lent but I am going to continue that after Easter. We need to promote that one as well.


I wish we would do that. I love being fed and slowing down to focus on hearing God's Word during the busy work week. :clap:

[DaSeminarian]

Next thing you know and DaRev will be holding Mass everyday. Rev. David Peterson of Redeemer Lutheran has Mass on Thursday evening during the "time of the Church" and during the Time of Easter he has Mass much more often. During Holy Week one could possibly partake in the sacrament 14 or 15 times. Does one need that much forgiveness?

The answer is yes and even more.

[HighLonesome]

I'm not surprised. Our services are at 0900 and it's just tough. Most people have commitments on Saturdays and they do appreciate a little down time to enjoy Sunday mornings without being rushed to church.
An hour makes a huge difference and I imagine that 1030 would be even more ideal. 1100 is pushing it and during football season....well, you know.
Gee, I hope God doesn't need a little down time the next time I need Him. Sorry, I don't buy into it - I drive for almost an hour to get to where I worship (at 9am). I'd rather worship early and have the rest of the day personally.

[DaRev]

Gee, I hope God doesn't need a little down time the next time I need Him. Sorry, I don't buy into it - I drive for almost an hour to get to where I worship (at 9am). I'd rather worship early and have the rest of the day personally.

I wish everyone thought as you do. Unfortunately they don't. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration when setting a service time, such as weather history, mean age of attendees, distance of travel of members, parking availability, etc.

In a perfect world it should not matter at all when service are held. But we don't live in a perfect world.

[LilLamb219]

There are some days when I really appreciate having the 8AM service and days when I'm glad I can sleep in for the 10:45AM service. Saturday nights I can't do until summertime because of choir and handbell choir...they only do Saturday nights once a year, unfortunately.

[Plutonius]

I always go to the early service because they only play hymns. Contemporary music does NOTHING for my soul. Getting up early is a small price to pray for amazing hymns and liturgy................

P.S. Actually never tried the latter service, it is liturgical but with a blend of hymns and contemporary music. I probably will end up going to one when I sleep in :)

[porterross]

Gee, I hope God doesn't need a little down time the next time I need Him. Sorry, I don't buy into it - I drive for almost an hour to get to where I worship (at 9am). I'd rather worship early and have the rest of the day personally.


I don't disagree, but the fewer opportunities you give people to make excuses, the easier it is to increase attendance and at our little, struggling church we need to make it convenient for as many people as possible. We only have one Sunday service and I know that younger, singles and even families appreciate the extra hour on Sunday morning.

It's a moot point for this congregation, though, so we're going to have to find a way to make the services irresistible, which is not easy without an organist. We really are struggling and need all the prayers we can get, including those to get my parents back into the church they used to be so dedicated to help thrive. There's a story I truly find heartbreaking. :(

[KimLCMS]

The contemporary music in our second service is a blessing for us. The children know all the words to the songs because we listen to contemporary Christian music at home and in the car. It helps them to enjoy the "big people service" before they go off to "kid's worship."

[KimLCMS]

Hi Porterross! How are you this evening?

[porterross]

Hi, Kimmy.
I'm great, thanks, and I hope you're the same. :wave:

We're a little sore from many miles on horseback up and down the canyons, but it was worth it.

[Plutonius]

The contemporary music in our second service is a blessing for us. The children know all the words to the songs because we listen to contemporary Christian music at home and in the car. It helps them to enjoy the "big people service" before they go off to "kid's worship."
Some like it, some don`t. Hence the two services :)

[DaRev]

The contemporary music in our second service is a blessing for us. The children know all the words to the songs because we listen to contemporary Christian music at home and in the car. It helps them to enjoy the "big people service" before they go off to "kid's worship."

I just pray that they're learning good doctinally sound songs instead of all that "I've decided to follow Jesus with all my heart and desire" nonsense that most of Contemporary praise and worship music is. There is some good contemporary Christian songs, but not many of them are used in CW services.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I just pray that they're learning good doctinally sound songs instead of all that "I've decided to follow Jesus with all my heart and desire" nonsense that most of Contemporary praise and worship music is. There is some good contemporary Christian songs, but not many of them are used in CW services.

Hahaha. Yeah that's nonsense.

I like 'In Christ Alone,' 'Lord Have Mercy,' and 'Be Unto Your Name.'

Here are the lyrics to each:

In Christ Alone:

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Till on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost it's grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Brought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
'Till He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand

A modified version of Lord Have Mercy (greco-latin lyrics with a third verse I wrote):

Jesus, I've forgotten the words that You have spoken
Promises that burned within my heart have now grown dim
With a doubting heart I follow the paths of earthly wisdom
Forgive me for my unbelief, renew the fire again

Chorus

Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Lord have mercy on me
Kyrie eleison
Christi eleison
Kyrie eleison, Amen

I have built an altar where I worship things of men
I have taken journeys that have drawn me far from You
Now I am returning to Your mercies ever flowing
Pardon my transgressions, Help me love You again

Chorus

Lord I offer curses, with the mouth with which I praise you
I know what is the right thing, and right I do not do
And Lord I hate my neighbor, while I tell you that I love you
Forgive the lies I've told you, and Father make me true

Chorus

I have longed to know You and Your tender mercies
Like a river of forgiveness ever flowing without end
I bow my heart before You in the goodness of Your presence
Your grace forever shining, like a beacon in the night

Chorus

And Be Unto Your Name:

We are a moment, You are forever
Lord of the Ages, God before time
We are a vapor, You are eternal
Love everlasting, reigning on high

Chorus

Holy, holy, Lord God Almighty
Worthy is the Lamb Who was slain
Highest praises, honor and glory
Be unto Your name, be unto Your name

We are the broken, You are the healer
Jesus, Redeemer, mighty to save
You are the love song we'll sing forever
Bowing before You, blessing Your name

Chorus

Except for the last line of Be Unto Your Name and the celebration of our active returning to God in the last verse of Lord Have Mercy, I think these are some of the best contemporary worship songs out there.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Jesus, I've forgotten the words that You have spoken
Promises that burned within my heart have now grown dim
With a doubting heart I follow the paths of earthly wisdom
Forgive me for my unbelief, renew the fire again

Chorus

Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Lord have mercy on me
Kyrie eleison
Christi eleison
Kyrie eleison, Amen

I have built an altar where I worship things of men
I have taken journeys that have drawn me far from You
Now I am returning to Your mercies ever flowing
Pardon my transgressions, Help me love You again

Chorus

Lord I offer curses, with the mouth with which I praise you
I know what is the right thing, and right I do not do
And Lord I hate my neighbor, while I tell you that I love you
Forgive the lies I've told you, and Father make me true

Chorus

I have longed to know You and Your tender mercies
Like a river of forgiveness ever flowing without end
I bow my heart before You in the goodness of Your presence
Your grace forever shining, like a beacon in the night



Ahhhhhh----renew in me a clean heart o God.

[DaRev]

Call me picky, but may I be critical of this one?

Jesus, I've forgotten the words that You have spoken
Promises that burned within my heart have now grown dim
With a doubting heart I follow the paths of earthly wisdom
Forgive me for my unbelief, renew the fire again

Chorus

Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Lord have mercy on me
Kyrie eleison
Christi eleison
Kyrie eleison, Amen

I have built an altar where I worship things of men
I have taken journeys that have drawn me far from You

Very good up to this point.

Now I am returning to Your mercies ever flowing

How am "I returning to Your mercies"? Maybe it should read "Please return me to Your mercies." Puts the emphasis back on Christ instead of us.

Pardon my transgressions, Help me love You again

Chorus

Lord I offer curses, with the mouth with which I praise you
I know what is the right thing, and right I do not do
And Lord I hate my neighbor, while I tell you that I love you
Forgive the lies I've told you, and Father make me true

Chorus

OK to this point.

I have longed to know You and Your tender mercies


Do we really long to know Him and His tender mercies? Maybe it could read, "Help me Lord to know You and Your tender mercies."

Like a river of forgiveness ever flowing without end
I bow my heart before You in the goodness of Your presence
Your grace forever shining, like a beacon in the night

Chorus

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Call me picky, but may I be critical of this one?

Absolutely.

How am "I returning to Your mercies"? Maybe it should read "Please return me to Your mercies." Puts the emphasis back on Christ instead of us.

Agreed.

OK to this point

Well, that is the verse I wrote, so I'd hope it wouldn't be anthropocentric.

Do we really long to know Him and His tender mercies? Maybe it could read, "Help me Lord to know You and Your tender mercies."

Hmm.... I know I've failed to know Him. On the other hand, I certainly know I desire His tender mercies....

[DaRev]

Hmm.... I know I've failed to know Him. On the other hand, I certainly know I desire His tender mercies....

But how do you know and desire His mercies? By yourself? By your reason? Or by the work and movement of the Holy Spirit in you? Remember, it is the Holy Spirit's work to point us to Christ.

[filosofer]

But how do you know and desire His mercies? By yourself? By your reason? Or by the work and movement of the Holy Spirit in you? Remember, it is the Holy Spirit's work to point us to Christ.

Not sure I agree with you, DaRev. Consider Psalm 42:2, 84:2, 141:1, 142:1, etc. These clearly show the desire of the heart of the believer. By expressing that, there is no violation of L&G, in fact a worshipful recognition of the right distinction of L&G.

In Christ's love,
filo

[DaRev]

Not sure I agree with you, DaRev. Consider Psalm 42:2, 84:2, 141:1, 142:1, etc. These clearly show the desire of the heart of the believer. By expressing that, there is no violation of L&G, in fact a worshipful recognition of the right distinction of L&G.

In Christ's love,
filo


Unless it is a direct quote from the Psalms, and is known as a direct quote from the Psalms, I don't equate the inspired word of God with the lyrics of a contemporary praise song. If I am in error, I prefer to err on the side of orthodoxy.

[filosofer]

Unless it is a direct quote from the Psalms, and is known as a direct quote from the Psalms, I don't equate the inspired word of God with the lyrics of a contemporary praise song. If I am in error, I prefer to err on the side of orthodoxy.

But even hymns in the hymnals have words and expressions that are not direct quotes from Scripture.

In Christ's love,
filo

[DaRev]

But even hymns in the hymnals have words and expressions that are not direct quotes from Scripture.

In Christ's love,
filo


And I don't like the ones that put the emphasis on us, either.

[HighLonesome]

I don't disagree, but the fewer opportunities you give people to make excuses, the easier it is to increase attendance and at our little, struggling church we need to make it convenient for as many people as possible. We only have one Sunday service and I know that younger, singles and even families appreciate the extra hour on Sunday morning.

It's a moot point for this congregation, though, so we're going to have to find a way to make the services irresistible, which is not easy without an organist. We really are struggling and need all the prayers we can get, including those to get my parents back into the church they used to be so dedicated to help thrive. There's a story I truly find heartbreaking. :(
I know about struggling little churches. We worship about 15 during the winter time and up to about 50 during the summer when the summer residents and visitors are there. I'll keep you & your congregation in my prayers . . . Trust in the Lord Mel!

[C.F.W. Walther]

I still think I should hire myself out as a traveling organist to churches in need. Marv needs one and now HighLonesome.

"Have Hymnal, WIll Travel."

[HighLonesome]

Appreciate the offer Radidio, we do have an organist though. I just meant that we were a small congregation so I can appreciate porterross' predicament.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

And I don't like the ones that put the emphasis on us, either.

I agree. Just because it's a hymn doesn't mean it gets a 'pass' on anthropocentrism.

Heck, I'm not so sure anthropocentric psalms were meant for us to sing.

Take Psalm 8:4-6. Very, very anthropocentric. But how does Hebrews 2 interpret it? Christocentrically.

I think we should remember that anthropocentric psalms were sung by David, not us, and himself a type of Christ. We are neither.

[DaRev]

I agree. Just because it's a hymn doesn't mean it gets a 'pass' on anthropocentrism.

Heck, I'm not so sure anthropocentric psalms were meant for us to sing.

Take Psalm 8:4-6. Very, very anthropocentric. But how does Hebrews 2 interpret it? Christocentrically.

I think we should remember that anthropocentric psalms were sung by David, not us, and himself a type of Christ. We are neither.

But the Psalms are the inspired word of God and are meant for us. It is God's word in us. He is the one who enables us to do and to long and to desire. I have no problem with the Psalms.

[filosofer]

And I don't like the ones that put the emphasis on us, either.

Because it is in a hymn does not mean that the emphasis is on us. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it is anthropocentric either. Certainly those Psalms I mentioned are not considered anthropocentric.

In Christ's love,
filo

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

But the Psalms are the inspired word of God and are meant for us. It is God's word in us. He is the one who enables us to do and to long and to desire. I have no problem with the Psalms.

Well it's not like I have a 'problem' with Psalms, either.

But if the Psalms really are refering to Christ, I'd be just as uncomfortable singing them as singing something to the effect of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light" or any other quote of Christ.

[DaRev]

Well it's not like I have a 'problem' with Psalms, either.

But if the Psalms really are refering to Christ, I'd be just as uncomfortable singing them as singing something to the effect of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light" or any other quote of Christ.

But the Psalms were written to be sung.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

But the Psalms were written to be sung.

And I'm quite happy if a pastor or cantor sings them representing the person of Christ to the congregation. I don't know, I just... I know it sounds strange, but when I personally sing the words of some of the Psalms that so clearly could only be honestly sung by the Most High and are directly interpreted as Christological by the New Testament, I feel like I'm back in the anthropocentric, self-glorifying evangelicalism of my youth.

Maybe that's a wrong way to feel about the words of Sacred Scripture if every single Psalm really is meant to be sung by all Christians... but given my personal history and the overall inward focus of American Christianity, it seems like the pendulum really needs to swing the other way.

[DaRev]

And I'm quite happy if a pastor or cantor sings them representing the person of Christ to the congregation. I don't know, I just... I know it sounds strange, but when I personally sing the words of some of the Psalms that so clearly could only be honestly sung by the Most High and are directly interpreted as Christological by the New Testament, I feel like I'm back in the anthropocentric, self-glorifying evangelicalism of my youth.

Maybe that's a wrong way to feel about the words of Sacred Scripture if every single Psalm really is meant to be sung by all Christians... but given my personal history and the overall inward focus of American Christianity, it seems like the pendulum really needs to swing the other way.

You have an awful lot to learn. I wish I had the ability to reach you, but obviously, I do not.

I bid you well in your faith journey and I pray the Holy Spirit leads to all truth. :crossrc:

God bless, my brother.:wave:

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You have an awful lot to learn. I wish I had the ability to reach you, but obviously, I do not.

I bid you well in your faith journey and I pray the Holy Spirit leads to all truth. :crossrc:

God bless, my brother.:wave:

Ha, ok.

Happy birthday, by the way.

[C.F.W. Walther]

And I'm quite happy if a pastor or cantor sings them representing the person of Christ to the congregation. I don't know, I just... I know it sounds strange, but when I personally sing the words of some of the Psalms that so clearly could only be honestly sung by the Most High and are directly interpreted as Christological by the New Testament, I feel like I'm back in the anthropocentric, self-glorifying evangelicalism of my youth.

Maybe that's a wrong way to feel about the words of Sacred Scripture if every single Psalm really is meant to be sung by all Christians... but given my personal history and the overall inward focus of American Christianity, it seems like the pendulum really needs to swing the other way.
Do you have any problem quoting God's or Jesus' words in here or in a letter or thesis? Probably not so what is the difference when singing Psalms? You're still expressing God's words either way.

[Edial]

Well it's not like I have a 'problem' with Psalms, either.

But if the Psalms really are refering to Christ, I'd be just as uncomfortable singing them as singing something to the effect of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light" or any other quote of Christ.

Well, I would suggest a couple of ways to overcome this, since we do have to sing them.
If we do not publically sing them, who would? :)

1. Sing such Psalms as a proclamation of someone else's words.
Sing them "in quotes". You might even add in your mind "and Jesus said" or "and David said" and then sing the psalm.
Sing them as a public testimony for others to see and God to hear.

2. Sing the Psalms with gratitude.
(By "gratitude" I do not mean "what God has done for me", but just ... general gratitude to God).

COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Once there is a constant sense of gratitude, the quotes might just fall away and you'll just ... sing.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaSeminarian]

Lutherans look at the scriptures from the Gospels backwards and the Gospels forwards. All theology is Christology. The Psalms declare Christ just as much as the Epistles.

[Plutonius]

What exactly is the debate here? I am kind of confused.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Do you have any problem quoting God's or Jesus' words in here or in a letter or thesis? Probably not so what is the difference when singing Psalms? You're still expressing God's words either way.

Yes but in writing or proclaimation it's quite clear that I'm refering to Christ or God. I'm terribly afraid that that isn't made clear in singing the Psalms.

Once there is a constant sense of gratitude, the quotes might just fall away and you'll just ... sing.

I hope so, Ed. But it'll take a bit of time...

Lutherans look at the scriptures from the Gospels backwards and the Gospels forwards. All theology is Christology. The Psalms declare Christ just as much as the Epistles.

Woohoo, David Scaer.

What exactly is the debate here? I am kind of confused.

Not really a debate. I'm just uncomfortable singing some of the self-glorifying Psalms that refer to clearly to Christ and not myself. Singing "You have crowned me with glory and honor above all names" on this side of eternity just makes me terribly uncomfortable- especially as I'm still coming out of the anthropocentric (man-centered), self-glorifying worship style of my evangelical Arminian dispensationalist youth.

[Plutonius]

Ah, I see!

"I'm still coming out of the anthropocentric (man-centered), self-glorifying worship style of my evangelical Arminian dispensationalist youth."

I feel the SAME WAY!!! actually I am in the same boat, so to speak.

[filosofer]

All theology is Christology.

With some major caveats and explanations and footnotes - otherwise, such a statement can be wrongly taken and wrongly applied, as has been demonstrated by some within the LCMS.

In Christ's love,
filo

[C.F.W. Walther]

With some major caveats and explanations and footnotes - otherwise, such a statement can be wrongly taken and wrongly applied, as has been demonstrated by some within the LCMS.

In Christ's love,
filo

How so? Just curious

[DaSeminarian]

With some major caveats and explanations and footnotes - otherwise, such a statement can be wrongly taken and wrongly applied, as has been demonstrated by some within the LCMS.

In Christ's love,
filo



One doesn't just find him anywhere, but if one sees the story of Moses through Christ-colored glasses one can see Christ in the typology. Moses is the type and Christ the Archetype. The same in the Prophets like Elijah/Elisha and Kings like David. All of the types however, were sinful men whereas Christ is sinless. The Word is implicitly written to show Jesus in many of the stories and history of God's chosen people. In the NT, the Epistles now explicitly give us Jesus as God's chosen in one person who gave his life for all to bring us to God, the righteous for the unrighteous. He was put to death in the body and made alive by the Spirit.

[filosofer]

One doesn't just find him anywhere, but if one sees the story of Moses through Christ-colored glasses one can see Christ in the typology. Moses is the type and Christ the Archetype. The same in the Prophets like Elijah/Elisha and Kings like David. All of the types however, were sinful men whereas Christ is sinless. The Word is implicitly written to show Jesus in many of the stories and history of God's chosen people. In the NT, the Epistles now explicitly give us Jesus as God's chosen in one person who gave his life for all to bring us to God, the righteous for the unrighteous. He was put to death in the body and made alive by the Spirit.

I agree with what you write. But that still isn't the same as the claim that "all theology is Christology".

In Christ's love,
filo

[DaSeminarian]

I agree with what you write. But that still isn't the same as the claim that "all theology is Christology".

In Christ's love,
filo



True, but to give a full explanation would require more posting than I am willing to commit to at this time. ;)

[filosofer]

True, but to give a full explanation would require more posting than I am willing to commit to at this time. ;)

I understand about the crunch of time. And that is why we have to be careful of "slogan Lutheranism", because the context of making the claim "all theology is Christology" takes a long time to development, and it is applicable in only specific contexts.

In Christ's love,
filo

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Re: All theology is Christology.

David Scaer's basic claim in this remark is that all theology is connected to our understanding of the incarnation, offices, and work of Jesus Christ.

For instance, the Reformed tradition denies the genera maiestiticum, or the principle that says that the divinity of Christ shines in and through his humanity. It is one of the three genera (or types) of sharing in attributes between the two natures of Christ in his single person.

According to this genus, the principle of divine simplicity (the principle that states that God is utterly simple and indivisble, and therefore that anywhere he is present he is therefore present in utter fulness) shines in and through Christ's humanity. Therefore we can't talk about a merely 'spiritual' presence of Christ at all, since the Second Person of the Trinity and personally and hypostatically bound to the human nature of Christ within a single person. So to speak about a presence of Christ in the Eucharist at all is to speak of Christ's fully incarnate presence.

However, the Reformed deny the genus maiestiticum (although the nominally affirm the other two genera and the communicatio), and are so able to avoid the divine simplicity principle. They can thus talk about the 'spiritual presence' of Christ in the Eucharist- as if any such thing were possible. In essence, they're little more than Nestorians (funny how they're predeterminally double predestinarian and iconoclasts, too, just like Nestorians and the Nestorian-derived Muslims).

Anyway, that's the example David Scaer uses in his book on Christology after laying down his dictum that 'all theology is Christology.' It doesn't mean that we should confuse theological areas, but merely that theology is an organic whole inseperable from the person and work of Christ.

And to actually pull the thread back it's worship context, that's one of the reasons I am uncomfortable singing many of the man-glorifying Psalms- because Matthew 24 and Hebrews 2 look at David and the Psalms as Christological typology. It also is because of the Flacian controversy- in the early Lutheran movement, there was a great controversy between the Philippists and the Flacians. The Flacians said that original sin and depravity were a substantial part of the human being- sin had infected the very nature of humanity. Philippists, on the other hand, said that sin was only an accidental, or periphrial property. The Philippists did not mean to deny the effects of sin (although Philipp Melanchton was perhaps a little too cozy with Erasmus), but merely wished to say that if sin changed the very nature of what it meant to be human, and Christ became human but without sin, then Christ did not fully share in our humanity. The Philippists, by the way, won out and their views are codified in the Epitome and Formula of Concord (although with the Gnesio-Lutheran views over-against the Adiaphorsits, but that's another matter).

The point being that our anthropology is actually defined in direct relation to the person and work of Christ, and thus also affects how we do all of theology, lead our lives, and worship.

[DaRev]

Re: All theology is Christology.

David Scaer's basic claim in this remark is that all theology is connected to our understanding of the incarnation, offices, and work of Jesus Christ.

For instance, the Reformed tradition denies the genera maiestiticum, or the principle that says that the divinity of Christ shines in and through his humanity. It is one of the three genera (or types) of sharing in attributes between the two natures of Christ in his single person.

According to this genus, the principle of divine simplicity (the principle that states that God is utterly simple and indivisble, and therefore that anywhere he is present he is therefore present in utter fulness) shines in and through Christ's humanity. Therefore we can't talk about a merely 'spiritual' presence of Christ at all, since the Second Person of the Trinity and personally and hypostatically bound to the human nature of Christ within a single person. So to speak about a presence of Christ in the Eucharist at all is to speak of Christ's fully incarnate presence.

However, the Reformed deny the genus maiestiticum (although the nominally affirm the other two genera and the communicatio), and are so able to avoid the divine simplicity principle. They can thus talk about the 'spiritual presence' of Christ in the Eucharist- as if any such thing were possible. In essence, they're little more than Nestorians (funny how they're predeterminally double predestinarian and iconoclasts, too, just like Nestorians and the Nestorian-derived Muslims).

Anyway, that's the example David Scaer uses in his book on Christology after laying down his dictum that 'all theology is Christology.' It doesn't mean that we should confuse theological areas, but merely that theology is an organic whole inseperable from the person and work of Christ.

And to actually pull the thread back it's worship context, that's one of the reasons I am uncomfortable singing many of the man-glorifying Psalms- because Matthew 24 and Hebrews 2 look at David and the Psalms as Christological typology. It also is because of the Flacian controversy- in the early Lutheran movement, there was a great controversy between the Philippists and the Flacians. The Flacians said that original sin and depravity were a substantial part of the human being- sin had infected the very nature of humanity. Philippists, on the other hand, said that sin was only an accidental, or periphrial property. The Philippists did not mean to deny the effects of sin (although Philipp Melanchton was perhaps a little too cozy with Erasmus), but merely wished to say that if sin changed the very nature of what it meant to be human, and Christ became human but without sin, then Christ did not fully share in our humanity. The Philippists, by the way, won out and their views are codified in the Epitome and Formula of Concord (although with the Gnesio-Lutheran views over-against the Adiaphorsits, but that's another matter).

The point being that our anthropology is actually defined in direct relation to the person and work of Christ, and thus also affects how we do all of theology, lead our lives, and worship.

If you don't end up with a PhD. by the time you're done, I will be totally shocked. :eek:

[Edial]

With some major caveats and explanations and footnotes - otherwise, such a statement can be wrongly taken and wrongly applied, as has been demonstrated by some within the LCMS.

In Christ's love,
filo

Harold Camping from "Family Radio" comes to mind.
He is not Lutheran. He sees the gospel in each and every part of the OT.
And then he combines that with a statement that Christ spoke only in parables ... cultish following follows.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If you don't end up with a PhD. by the time you're done, I will be totally shocked. :eek:

I'll take that as a compliment. :wave::hug:

[DaRev]

I'll take that as a compliment. :wave::hug:

Well, while I don't agree with some of what you say, you are wise beyond your years. I believe that is a gift that God wishes you to use.

Have you applied to CSL, or at least taken advantage of any of the prospective student visitations? If not, I would strongly suggest that you do so. A weekend visit to the campus will put you in contact with those professors whom I've mentioned. You'd have an opportunity to speak with them, sit in on classes, and hear from them on some of these issues. A one on one with them would answer your questions MUCH better than I or anyone here ever could.

Check this link:
http://www.csl.edu/Admissions_PastoralandDeaconessFormation_VisitationOpportunities.aspx

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Well, while I don't agree with some of what you say, you are wise beyond your years. I believe that is a gift that God wishes you to use.

Have you applied to CSL, or at least taken advantage of any of the prospective student visitations? If not, I would strongly suggest that you do so. A weekend visit to the campus will put you in contact with those professors whom I've mentioned. You'd have an opportunity to speak with them, sit in on classes, and hear from them on some of these issues. A one on one with them would answer your questions MUCH better than I or anyone here ever could.

Check this link:
http://www.csl.edu/Admissions_Pastor...rtunities.aspx (http://www.csl.edu/Admissions_PastoralandDeaconessFormation_VisitationOpportunities.aspx)

Awesome, thanks!