A non RCC version

[Uphill Battle]

Can I please have information about the EO's take on Mary? I hear the RCC version over and over, and I'd like to hear it from the EO side.

Don't want to misunderstand the EO any longer. Thanks!

[Philothei]

Hi Uphill and welcome !!

Well, have you been mislead from other giving you "right" info?? just kidding :)Anyhow.

We call Mary Theotokos.

the Son of God is begotten (born) of the Father and God from all eternity (see Holy Trinity (http://www.answers.com/topic/trinity) and Nicene Creed (http://www.answers.com/topic/nicene-creed)), but is born in time of Mary, the Theotokos. "Theotokos," then, refers to the Incarnation (http://www.answers.com/topic/incarnation-christianity), when the divine person of God the Son took on human nature in addition to his pre-existing divine nature, this being made possible through Mary's cooperation. It is within this frame of reference (the Incarnation) that "Mother of God" and "Birth-giver of God" should be understood.
Since Jesus Christ is understood as both fully God and fully human, to call Mary "Theotokos" is to affirm the fullness of God's Incarnation. The significance of the title "Theotokos" consists more in what it says about Christ than in what it says about Mary, for it affirms the reality of the Incarnation. One cannot deny that Mary is Theotokos (Birth-giver of God) without also denying that Christ is Theos (God); yet Christ's true divinity (that he is truly God made flesh) is the foundational belief of traditional Christianity; for that divinity makes possible, in turn, the salvation (http://www.answers.com/topic/salvation) of human beings through theosis (http://www.answers.com/topic/theosis).


Also:

Third Ecumenical Council

The use of Theotokos was formally affirmed at the Third Ecumenical Council (http://www.answers.com/topic/council-of-ephesus) held at Ephesus (http://www.answers.com/topic/ephesus) in 431 (http://www.answers.com/topic/431). The competing view (advocated by Nestorius (http://www.answers.com/topic/nestorius), then Patriarch of Constantinople (http://www.answers.com/topic/ecumenical-patriarch-of-constantinople)) was that Mary should be called Christotokos, meaning "Mother of Christ," to restrict her role to the mother of Christ's humanity only and not his divine nature.
Nestorius's opponents, led by Cyril of Alexandria (http://www.answers.com/topic/cyril-of-alexandria), viewed this as dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. Such a notion was unacceptable, since (in the Orthodox view) it sabotaged the fullness of the incarnation and, by extension, the salvation of humanity. Nestorius's view was anathematised (http://www.answers.com/topic/anathema-2) by the Council as heresy (http://www.answers.com/topic/heresy), (see Nestorianism (http://www.answers.com/topic/nestorianism)), and the title "Theotokos" for Mary was affirmed.
By the end of his life, Nestorius had agreed to the title Theotokos, stating the apparent communication of the attributes (idiomata).

Pretty much our "Mariology" ends up with this one council.

and last but not least:


Question:
Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches hold the Mother of God in high esteem yet conflict in regard to the "Immaculate Conception." Why is that? I know this has a basis, in part, with regard to the Roman dogma of "Papal Infallibility" which the Orthodox do not subscribe to, since it was through a Dogma, based on long tradition, that the Immaculate Conception was defined in 1854.
Also, what is the Orthodox view on the Dogma of the Assumption?
Answer: Dr. Alexander Roman alex@unicorne.org (alex@unicorne.org) Actually, the disagreement between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches over the Western dogma of the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with papal infallibility - and everything to do with differing views on Original Sin.

The Orthodox Church never subscribed to the extreme Augustinian view of "inherited guilt" with respect to Original Sin.

According to this view, we not only inherit the "effects" of Original Sin on our nature e.g. death, concupiscence and so on, but also the guilt of the personal sin of disobedience committed by Adam.

The Orthodox Church, following the Fathers of both East and West, affirms that Original Sin is experienced by us in our weakened natures, in the fact of death and the like - we cannot be held accountable, however, for the sin committed by someone else.

If, therefore, the Mother of God physically died, and the tradition and liturgical prayers both affirm that she experienced a blessed repose in her dying, a "Dormition" or falling asleep, then the Mother of God inherited the effects of Original Sin.

However, the Orthodox Church has always affirmed that the Mother of God was sanctified by the Holy Spirit even at her Conception in the womb of her mother, St Anne - and this is owing, of course, to her high calling as the Mother of God the Word Incarnate, our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

So for the Orthodox Church, "Original Sin" doesn't mean an actual inherited stain of sin. To say that the Mother of God was somehow exempt from Original Sin, as does the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception would, for the Orthodox Church, be the same as saying she did not die.

Does this mean that the Orthodox Church considers the Mother of God to be less holy than the Roman Catholic Church?

Not at all!

Since only the feasts of Saints can be kept, the fact that the East has a long, long tradition of honouring the Virgin Mary's Conception (December 22 Old Calendar) already demonstrates that the Orthodox Church glorifies the Mother of God as All-Holy and Ever-Holy from the first moment of her existence.

The Mother of God, as the liturgical texts sing, felt no pain in giving birth to Christ and felt no pain in falling asleep upon her death. In other words, the effects of Original Sin that we ourselves experience in our lives were highly mitigated in the life of the Most Holy Mother of God because of her great holiness and sanctification by the Spirit of God.

For the Orthodox Church, then, the Roman Catholic Marian doctrines are completely unnecessary since the Ever-Virgin Mary's total holiness and glorification in heaven in both body and soul have always been affirmed and believed. In addition, the extreme Augustinian view of Original Sin is outrightly rejected by the Orthodox Church.


http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/sept2003/dormition.htm

[Philothei]

I am sure if this info is not enough others can pitch in. The E. O. perspective is basically that the Theotokos cannot be excempt to original sin regardless how spotless her conception might have been. We honored her as the Saint above all others and venerate her and have all special services and hymns for her, but we do not hold her at the same honor as the Holy Trinity. She is special because of who she is in relation to her Son, she does not "save" only "intercedes" for us as she is of blood relation to the Incarnate Logos, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The way that the Theotokos relates to her Son and to the rest of humanity we can see it in the miracle of Cana when she takes initiative to ask the Lord if it is time to perform His miracles and she communicates His command to the servants. She is a Great Intercesor and we know that from this miracle and other places where the Mother of God is held of great honor by her Son.

God bless,
Hope that helps
Philothei

[The Prokeimenon!]

The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God (http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm) by St John Maximovitch

[Uphill Battle]

question: Is it possible to be orthodox without believing that you must pray to saints? Or believing that Mary was neccessarily free from personal sin?

[The Prokeimenon!]

question: Is it possible to be orthodox without believing that you must pray to saints?

No

Or believing that Mary was neccessarily free from personal sin?

Probably not- you'll find that this is common Orthodox belief, even if it's not "dogma" per se.

Rdr Moses

[Uphill Battle]

so, you MUST pray to saints to be orthodox?

[Eusebios]

Perhaps a bit of clarification in terms of "praying to" Saints may be in order here. We view the Saints as those persons who have "complted the course and run the race" hence, close to the heart of God. It is for that reason that we seek their intercession. So , in a sense, we do not "pray" to them, rather we ask them to pray on our behalf, rather like you would ask one of your friends to pray for you. We see no real seperation between the Church MIlitant and the Church Triumphant. AS St. Paul says, we are surrounded by a "great cloud of Witnesses", all those Saints, both OT and New who have lived lives pleasing to God.
So in a sense, yes, in order to be Orthodox, one must understand the role of the Saints in the life of the Church. Part of that role is interceding for us, which we frequently ask them to do.
As to Mary being spotless, as Rdr. Moses has rightly pointed out this is not Orthodox dogma, but is widely embraced by Orthodox in genertal.
I hope that helps.
Don

[The Prokeimenon!]

so, you MUST pray to saints to be orthodox?
Yup

[Uphill Battle]

Yup
well scratch that then. sigh...

[Rowan]

Welcome to TAW Uphill Battle (heh, it is indeed... ;) )

I'm also learning about the Orthodox view of Mary, and what helped me was listening to the Podcast Our Life in Christ. The have three programs called "Understanding the Virgin Mary" in their archives here : http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/archives.htm

Divine Liturgy helps me to understand as well.

...if that helps...

[Knowledge3]

so, you MUST pray to saints to be orthodox?

I have recently written 4 protestant,reformed,classic prayers from a congress book called The Invocation of the Saints in my blog. I,II,IV,III

Hope that helps.

Peace, K3 :priest:

[Mary of Bethany]

Uphill Battle,

first - hi :wave: and welcome to TAW.

Secondly, since almost all of us here in TAW are converts from different protestant denominations, as you can imagine we have all been through stages of coming to terms with different beliefs that are held in Orthodoxy but are different from what we had believed all our lives. To say that you would somehow just have to accept. overnight, everything the Church teaches, would be ridiculous and impossible.

That is why we all go through a long time of inquiry and, if we decide we want to become Orthodox, then through a catechumenate. It isn't like deciding to join a Baptist church (I'm a former Baptist), so you just walk down the aisle and shake the Deacon or Pastor's hand and tell them you want to join. It's a very big step, and most of us took it in very many small baby steps and we came to understand Orthodox teachings.

So anyway, just because "praying to Saints" seems like something you could never accept - if you have any interest in Orthodoxy, please don't let that stop you.

And the best place to learn is by attending services. Vespers (prayer service) on Saturday evenings is a real good service to start with. That way you could still attend your own church on Sunday mornings as needed.

Please don't turn away just because something seems unacceptable at this point. We've all had *at least* one or two of those!

Mary

[Shubunkin]

Don't dismiss it until you try it. The first time I asked for intercession was to the Theotokos. I was rather tongue-tied, not sure what to say or how to say it, and it became easier. Not only that, but my prayer requests were answered in a very big way quite quickly, as that had never happened like it before. There is the proof, to pray and see the results. If you don't believe, ask for help in your belief. :)

[Xpycoctomos]

so, you MUST pray to saints to be orthodox?
I wouldn't say that NOT praying to saints excludes you from being Orthodox. It's not a dogma of the Church (i don't think) but it's intricuitly interwoven into the fabric and life of the Church.

I guess I would say you MUST accept that prayer to saints is not wrong (even if you don't do it) BECAUSE it is so much a part of the Churchlife. I mean, it's part of every Liturgy and so you would be a hypocrit to say it's wrong but to continue being Orthodox.

Obviously the questions comes along, if one doesn't believe it's wrong, then why wouldn't they do it? Well, I guess there could be a lot of different reasons, most centering around a feeling of extreme uncomfortablness... which is understandable.. ubt this would inevitably change over time.

Please make sure to read the posts above throuroughly on what we mean by prayer to Saints. It's not what most protestants thing... if it were it WOULD be idol worship.

Don't feel pressured to try it (I doubt you would)... but inform yourself and I think over time you will view it as a harmless tradition (at worst) and a powerful weapon at best.

God bless friend,

Josh

[Philothei]

so, you MUST pray to saints to be orthodox?
Not really. With that it does not mean that we still do not honor the saints. If you feel uncomfortable with venerating them or praying to them it is perfectly fine with the Church.

Usually my experience has been with people who come to our faith that the conversion process comes naturally and with time. People cannot be pressured into doing things they do not understand or they do not make sense to them. Some people I have noticed have trouble with the Fathers, others with the Icons, and yet others with venerating the Saints. It is too much to grasp all at once.

Our Faith was etablished in 33 A.D. and being the original Church, the cult of saints was established since the very beginning, since the eucarist used to take place on the tombs of the martyrs. It is interesting that lately I visited an Art Museum of a very famous University here in the Northeast and I saw in amazement the "osteothiki" (bone case) ornated of the martyrs of our Church. I think it must have been around 1200 AD. The tradition of venerating the saints is very old as it goes back to the martyrs. I guess it takes time for someone to realise how real are the saints in our lifes because we have no more persecution. And after the martyrs we have the saints that lived worthy lives and were living examples of courage and righteous life.

About your question then if one must pray to the saints to be orthodox well it is like working in the retail buisness and have a 20% discount on clothing and dressing with rags... In other words to have the right to do so to pray but yet do not take advantage of the intersessiory prayers of the living saints and deny their help.... I hope that helps a little...

God bless,
Philothei

[Uphill Battle]

I'm getting conflicting answers here.

[Philothei]

Which are???

[Uphill Battle]

no, you don't have to believe in praying to saints, yes you do have to believe in praying to saints.

[ma2000]

From "The Diary of a Convert" by Danion Vasile:

September 11 1992

I’m reading “Miracles of Theotokos”. With almost every miracle my devotion to the Queen of Heaven is increasing. She cured so many sick persons; she helped so many people in need… The last part of the book is about miracles performed in the 20th century. From outside, I thought that the Orthodox are forced to show their devotion to the saints and to Theotokos. But seeing how soon The Holy Mother of God helps us, I felt that it’s hard not to show your sincere devotion. She loves us, She protects us, She covers us with her holy cover. How can I refuse to thank Her? How can I refuse to love Her, knowing that She cares about all believers?
When I’m reading about some special miracles, I kneel and say: “Mother of God, protector of the Christians, help me when I’m in need like you helped that man…”

(Translated from Romanian)

I hope it helps.

[Orthosdoxa]

no, you don't have to believe in praying to saints, yes you do have to believe in praying to saints.
I don't think of it as "MUST" pray to the saints. There's no, Ok, pray to these saints on these days, MUST do such and such so many times. So in that sense Philothei is right.

But you really can't be Orthodox without accepting that communion of the saints is a valid part of our faith, because to deny it is to deny some essential parts of our ecclesiology and soteriology. It's all wrapped up together, no piece is separable from another, like a seamless garment.

But as Philothei also said.... it's all just too much to grasp at once. (I should know... BTDT)

Perhaps before scratching the idea of Orthodoxy altogether, put this aside and commit to learning more about it, and more about Orthodoxy in general. I do understand your objections- I was a hardcore Baptist for over 20 years. But the more I grew into Orthodoxy, the more the communion of saints just made sense... not as a doctrine by itself to be accepted, but as an expression of our love for Christ and the joyful news of His victory over death.

LK

[eoe]

Remove the word "prayer" from this. Just remove it - it is causing you a whole heap of problems because you are attaching more meaning to it than we do. Protestants sometimes use a different vocabulary - or differing definitions of common words that can lead to big trouble.


Let me ask you a few questions:

Did Christ destroy death? - if yes then the Saints are alive. Period the end. To deny that they are alive is to say that Christ failed to destroy death. That is hard logic and you can not fight it. Either he destroyed death or he did not. (This is area #1 where protestants run into problems with this)

So - the Saints are not dead - they are alive.

next -
Are we allowed to pray for each other? Can you ask God to help me? To heal me? Is that wrong?
James 5:16:Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Not only is this NOT WRONG but we are actually commanded to do this!

Is this prayer effective? Yes! it availeth much!

So - we are ordered to pray for one another and that prayer is effective.

So - The Saints are NOT DEAD and we are commanded to pray for one another.

At this point the only thing left is "Can they hear us?" right? If thye are alive and we are commanded to pray for one another then it is simply a matter of asking isn't it? Somehow they have to get a message? It comes down to communication doesn't it?

Hebews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, What is this cloud of witnesses?

Uphill - it is a matter of communication and nothing more. Ask the average protestant if their Grandaddy is looking down on them from heaven and they will say "oh yes!" - why is it so far a stretch to say that this cloud includes Grandaddy and Aunt Bertha along with saint Peter and Paul? Why would Grandaddy be silent before the throne of God when his beloved grandchildren are still struggling here on Earth?

[Photini]

It took me learning about the Orthodox view of death before I could really begin to grasp prayer to the Saints.

[Uphill Battle]

Remove the word "prayer" from this. Just remove it - it is causing you a whole heap of problems because you are attaching more meaning to it than we do. Protestants sometimes use a different vocabulary - or differing definitions of common words that can lead to big trouble.


Let me ask you a few questions:

Did Christ destroy death? - if yes then the Saints are alive. Period the end. To deny that they are alive is to say that Christ failed to destroy death. That is hard logic and you can not fight it. Either he destroyed death or he did not. (This is area #1 where protestants run into problems with this)

So - the Saints are not dead - they are alive.

next -
Are we allowed to pray for each other? Can you ask God to help me? To heal me? Is that wrong?
Not only is this NOT WRONG but we are actually commanded to do this!

Is this prayer effective? Yes! it availeth much!

So - we are ordered to pray for one another and that prayer is effective.

So - The Saints are NOT DEAD and we are commanded to pray for one another.

At this point the only thing left is "Can they hear us?" right? If thye are alive and we are commanded to pray for one another then it is simply a matter of asking isn't it? Somehow they have to get a message? It comes down to communication doesn't it?

What is this cloud of witnesses?

Uphill - it is a matter of communication and nothing more. Ask the average protestant if their Grandaddy is looking down on them from heaven and they will say "oh yes!" - why is it so far a stretch to say that this cloud includes Grandaddy and Aunt Bertha along with saint Peter and Paul? Why would Grandaddy be silent before the throne of God when his beloved grandchildren are still struggling here on Earth?can they ask you to pray for them?

The lack of normitive modes of communication lead me to believe that i cannot converse with saints that have passed on.

I would never say they are dead, in the spiritual sense, they are more alive than we are! However, there is a distinction between physical death, and spritual life. If I die today, temporally, physically, and with relation to contact with the physical realm, I am dead, regardless of how alive I am.

[xristos.anesti]

Uphill Battle,

as it was said before by brothers and sisters here, one is to take small steps.

When I started being interested in Holy Orthodoxy, I did not belive in about 97% of what she teaches.

Some things weren't the problem, some were - what is very intersting with Orthodoxy is the way that she has with people who question her. Something like... hmm.. a gentle sledge hammer.

If you have problem with Communion of Saints or veneration or whatever that might be, hold what you can and question what you can't. There are no bad questions. You can be the biggest heterodox in the universe, so big that even devil can learn something from you, the only thing that you really need is the will to learn and let God work, will to realise when you are wrong and to change the future when you do.

If it takes eons, if it takes more than that - hey, it happens - ask questions and be not afraid.

Hold what you can, and question everything else - but in all be ready to listen and have an open mind.

Many years.

ICXC
NIKA

[Philothei]

http://www.tewahdo.com/intercesionOf_Saints.htm

It is regrettable that people who object intercession seem adamant to destroy this fellowship. They resist our prayers for the sake of the departed and their prayers or intercessions for us? Does the love relationship between God the Father and every believer contradicts the existence of love relationship between God's children? Did the Lord Jesus Christ not ask the Father: "... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us ... that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one" (John.17: 21, 23)?


It has been the practice to pray for intercession

We do it in humility so that....
"he who denies intercession. He might pompously ask: "What is the difference between me and those saints? The relationship between me and God is too strong to need intercession"! He raises himself to the rank of the saints, martyrs and angels. Those people will be reproached by the Apostle's words: "Pray for us" (Heb.13: 18) and "...praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints" (Eph.6: 18). "


And also to pray to His Angels:
"

He also permits angels to bandage the injuries of men and to minister to His children without them asking. How much more if they pray for it! "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?" (Heb.1: 14) So long as the angels are sent forth for this purpose why should we not ask their intervention to help us while they are near us?

Does this explains somehow?

God bless, and Lord have mercy on us

Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

can they ask you to pray for them?

The lack of normitive modes of communication lead me to believe that i cannot converse with saints that have passed on.

I would never say they are dead, in the spiritual sense, they are more alive than we are! However, there is a distinction between physical death, and spritual life. If I die today, temporally, physically, and with relation to contact with the physical realm, I am dead, regardless of how alive I am.
I understand whre you're coming from and what you say is very logical.

can they ask you to pray for them?

Normally, no, they won't ask you to. None have ever asked me and probalby never will. But the saints would have nothing to ask of us anyhow being that they have runa nd won the good race whereas we are still running it. You see, in Orthodoxy, we see all of our needs in turns of how it affects our salvation. None of us our saved until... we are saved lol. St Paul and (I hope) and other saints are already saved so I'm not sure what they would ask of us unless it were to say "this or that guy needs your prayers" or "hey you, straighten up." lol

The lack of normitive modes of communication lead me to believe that i cannot converse with saints that have passed on.


You're right that i cannot converse with them via normative modes, but many people have had inexplicable experiences where they feel like that saint is sitting right next to them just like a Christian friend on earth would. That doesn't really prove anything nor can such an experience be expected. I guess I am just trying to say that as orthodox we strongly believe that the spiritual element is very real and cna have effects (both good and evil) on the physical realm. Prayer to saints is a mysterious practice that I don't pretend to be able to explain well.

I would never say they are dead, in the spiritual sense, they are more alive than we are!
It gladdens me to hear you say that. This point is perhaps more important than any other.


However, there is a distinction between physical death, and spritual life. If I die today, temporally, physically, and with relation to contact with the physical realm, I am dead, regardless of how alive I am.


Understood, irony and all. I would only like to say that the we would not agree with your assumption I have bolded in red. Normative forms of contact... pretty much. Unless you are extremely holy (and even then perhaps not), St Seraphim is probably no going to come knocking at your door. However, when I ask St. Xenia to pray for our marriage, the very fact that I believe she sending up that prayer (just as my friend at Church will, although she is much more alive in Christ than he is as you pointed out, so her prayers are that much more effective) is what I consider a very basic form of communication. I realize that what I have just said is very circular becuase if you don't believe she hears the prayer anyway then you're back to square one. I am simply trying to show why we don't believe there is no possible communication.

Anyhow, those are my ramblings.

hope they helped in some manner :)

john

[repentant]

well scratch that then. sigh...


It seems to me that you may be inquiring?..based on your response here..let me just say this. If you are considering the EOC and to be Baptized and or Chrismated Orthodox, praying to Saints,or more so asking for their intercession is not something you have to come into full force, at least on a personal level. This could be something you gradually do, and ease into slowly. Praying to Saints and asking for thier intercssion is not a requirement to be Orthodox, but it could be something that one can aquire. Once you enter the Church of Christ, asking Saints for help will come natural, and not feel wrong to you, so to say. Also once you realize what it really is,this also makes it easier. We look at it as beingmuch easier to run the race with help, then it is to do it by ourself...this is one of the main purposes of the Church.

[Lotar]

can they ask you to pray for them?

The lack of normitive modes of communication lead me to believe that i cannot converse with saints that have passed on.

I would never say they are dead, in the spiritual sense, they are more alive than we are! However, there is a distinction between physical death, and spritual life. If I die today, temporally, physically, and with relation to contact with the physical realm, I am dead, regardless of how alive I am.

I suppose they can ask you, but for what reason would they ever need our prayers? For them the race is already completed.

Now, more address your question more broadly, it is possible for them to communicate to us directly. For example, St. Basil told my wife that she was pregnant a week before the test showed it.

The Saints have a close union with God, and through this union, and more specifically, through their participation in the divine energies of God, they are able to hear our prayers. It is only we who are limited, by our sinfulness, in our interaction with the spiritual world.

I remember the story of one Saint who, when he served the Liturgy, saw the icons as though they were real, and the crowd of people in the church appeared as though they were but shadows.

[Uphill Battle]

I suppose they can ask you, but for what reason would they ever need our prayers? For them the race is already completed.

Now, more address your question more broadly, it is possible for them to communicate to us directly. For example, St. Basil told my wife that she was pregnant a week before the test showed it.

The Saints have a close union with God, and through this union, and more specifically, through their participation in the divine energies of God, they are able to hear our prayers. It is only we who are limited, by our sinfulness, in our interaction with the spiritual world.

I remember the story of one Saint who, when he served the Liturgy, saw the icons as though they were real, and the crowd of people in the church appeared as though they were but shadows.
can I ask how you know it was St. Basil?

And beyond that, would they not have to be omnipresent to here the prayers of all the suplicants... a distinction of God alone?

[choirfiend]

No, not if God allows them to. It's ALWAYS God's power and grace that gives us the strength to follow His will, right? It's STILL His power and grace that the departed are experiencing--only they're not fighting it anymore, like I know I still am here on earth.

[Orthosdoxa]

would they not have to be omnipresent to here the prayers of all the suplicants

nope... they are in full communion with the One who IS omnipresent.

This might be an option to explore further, and it has to do with our view of salvation, too....

To be "saved" is to return to that Adamic state, what we were meant to be all along... in true communion, not just found "not guilty" in some Divine courtroom.

LK

[Lotar]

can I ask how you know it was St. Basil?


Because it happened while she was praying to him in front of one of his icons at the Getty Museum.


And beyond that, would they not have to be omnipresent to here the prayers of all the suplicants... a distinction of God alone?


God alone truly exists. Some things He has granted to us according to our nature, and some things He makes possible through participation in His energies. So, if and when they take on a certain amount of omniscience or some other quality of God, they do so through participation in the divine energies, not according to their nature.

[Lotar]

nope... they are in full communion with the One who IS omnipresent.

This might be an option to explore further, and it has to do with our view of salvation, too....

To be "saved" is to return to that Adamic state, what we were meant to be all along... in true communion, not just found "not guilty" in some Divine courtroom.

LK
To be saved is to ascend to that which Adam was created for, that is, union with God, not simply returning to his state.

[Orthosdoxa]

Noted.

[Theophorus]

can I ask how you know it was St. Basil?

And beyond that, would they not have to be omnipresent to here the prayers of all the suplicants... a distinction of God alone?

As it was explained to me by a reliable source.

The saints, participating in the uncreated energies of God/grace/uniting with God, do have certain attributes and understandings as a result of this state of grace.

And not only those who have passed on, but even those who are still here. There are many accounts of living "saints" having a knowledge of things by other means than their five senses. Living people interceding and helping their brother over vast distances. Basically, miraculous manifestations of the grace of God.

[eoe]

can they ask you to pray for them?

If they need to comunicate with you - they can do so. There are numerous accounts of this happening and I am not talking about fatima.
The lack of normitive modes of communication lead me to believe that i cannot converse with saints that have passed on.

Have you ever had normative communication with a rainforest dweller? Does that mean that it is impossible? Just because you have not experienced it does not mean that it does not exist.

At any rate - I think that you can indeed see that I m correct in this. For all of the protesting about Saintly intercession - it all boils down to one question - Can they hear us? All the other "issues" are really vapor.

There are people in the rainforest that I have no normative method of communication available for me to use - but here is the rub - what is impossible with men is easy for God. If he wants me to speak with the rainforest dweller then it will be as easy as falling off a log.