The essence & energies of God [Archive]

View Full Version : The essence & energies of God

IowaLutheran

28th February 2007, 06:35 PM

In the "bookworms" thread there was a comment on the essence and energies of God. I remember reading about this distinction when I read Ware's The Orthodox Church awhile back.

I'm taking a seminary class which is kind of an overview of systematic theology and I am currently studying the various ways of looking at God (transcendent, immanent, etc.). I was disappointed that there was no discussion in the textbook of essence/energies, so in my weekly homework, I will add that to the discussion if I can.

Can you shed some light on this subject for me? Thanks!!!!

Knowledge3

28th February 2007, 06:41 PM

Knowledge3

28th February 2007, 06:47 PM

Can you shed some light on this subject for me? Thanks!!!!

I suggest:

1)St. John Damascene
2)St. Gregory of Nyssa
3)St. Symeon the New Theologian
4)St. Gregory Palamas

For Orthodox teaching on the essences & energies of God.

Jacob4707

28th February 2007, 06:50 PM

John of Damascus wrote a 4-book EXPOSITION OF THE ORTHODOX FAITH. It's found on many Websites, this http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_exp1.aspx being one of them (this is the link for Book I; Books II, III and IV have links on this page). You should be able to find discussions of God's essence and energies in one or more of the 4 books - open up a book and search the chapter headings or search for the words you want.

Protoevangel

28th February 2007, 06:55 PM

I will offer you my extremely limited and undoubtedly flawed understanding on the subject

God's "Essence" (ousia) is what God is by nature. His "Energies" are how He interacts with Creation. We, as created beings not only can never be part of the "Essence" of God, but we can never directly know or see that "Essence", but only His "Energies".

If you have a chance to read it, I hear that Vladimir Lossky's book, "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" contains an excellent explanation.

IowaLutheran

28th February 2007, 07:08 PM

God deifies man by grace through salvation in Jesus Christ. Man's goal in life is orientation to salvation and deification in God the Holy Trinity by the true and consecrated Holy Eucharist of the Orthodox Church which is the heart and center of communal Christian life.

The Old Testament Prophets experienced the pre-incarnate Christ through the Spirit of God and experienced a sort of deification through the revelation and knowledge of His gracious Spirit.(ie) Moses lifting up the serpent in the desert. When Christ was born of the Theotokos, He became God Incarnate in the flesh. Which in turn changed the face of world history since A.D. 1.

:priest:

I am somewhat familiar with theosis/deification. If you don't mind, can you help me out and tell me a bit more about how theosis is related to the essence/energies distinction?

Thanks for the quick replies. Your summary, Protoevangel, helped jog my memory. And the link you provided, Kathxoymenoc, was very helpful.

Knowledge3

28th February 2007, 07:12 PM

I am somewhat familiar with theosis/deification. If you don't mind, can you help me out and tell me a bit more about how theosis is related to the essence/energies distinction?

Theosis is the illumination of darkened/benign nous which is the focal point of the soul. Death is unnatural and a result of the Adamic Fall from his natural state of communion with God.

Deification is the changing and transformation of the sacred human person into becoming like Christ. But only Christ is perfect, and we are flawed/imperfect human beings. We ought to be thankful God sent us His only Son for a chance at salvation.

Like Protoevangel said, I am only a Cathecumen and unlearned & new.

I will have to do more study on the essences/energies of God before I can continue further.

Hope this helps.

Peace, K3 :priest:

choirfiend

28th February 2007, 09:22 PM

Actually, your best bet is the authors that K3 listed, as opposed to K3 teaching on his own, which I know he is trying not to do. The sources would likely have good info, while K3 admits that he is not sure what he is teaching.
.

Knowledge3

1st March 2007, 06:13 AM

IowaLutheran, for correct Orthodox teaching on Tradition:

http://ortho-logia.com/English/RomWritings/ScrpitureInBO-3.htm

Orthodox perspective on the Bible:

http://www.ortho-logia.com/English/RomWritings/ScrpitureInBO-2.htm

And for patristic studies on the Orthodox Fathers:

http://www.monachos.net/library/Patristic_Studies_Area

Hope this helps.

If you have more questions you are welcome in TAW to ask. . .

Peace, K3 :priest:

IowaLutheran

1st March 2007, 10:54 AM

Knowledge3

1st March 2007, 11:03 AM

Excellent - thank you very much for the links and the invitation.

I look forward to learning here and also on the new patristics forum.

I formulated a Patristic Christianity thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4885745-patrisitic-christianity.html

Knowledge3

5th March 2007, 01:31 PM

Can you shed some light on this subject for me? Thanks!!!!

Authentic Orthodox teaching on deification:

source:The Mind of the Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Nafpaktos Heirotheos:

<excerpt> We call θεός's uncreated energy purifying, illuminating, and deifying in according with the effects, the results, for according to St. John of Damaskos "energy, active,action and acting are all different things." <excerpt>

<excerpt> (Baptism,Chrismation,divine Eucharist,priesthood,marriage,confession,unction) are manifestations of the purifying, illuminating, and deifying energy of θεός. <excerpt>

. . .:priest:

Anhelyna

5th March 2007, 01:53 PM

Wesley

You are trying to teach again !

You promised you would stop this kind of post.

Please try and keep your promise

Knowledge3

5th March 2007, 01:55 PM

I'm not teaching but selecting excerpts from a book I'm reading.

And yes, I will keep my promise. :priest:

choirfiend

5th March 2007, 04:57 PM

That's teaching.

The Virginian

5th March 2007, 05:18 PM

......

I'm taking a seminary class which is kind of an overview of systematic theology.... I was disappointed that there was no discussion in the textbook of essence/energies, so in my weekly homework, I will add that to the discussion if I can.

Can you shed some light on this subject for me? Thanks!!!!

I don't know that this is the exact answer! Most often I understand the energies of God as being those things which we readily distinguish as a result of His actions; that is, power, holiness, love, knowledge, mercy, etc., etc., etc.,...
Quite often we make the mistake of saying that the essence of God is love, when in actuality we don't know that. However, we can understand the agape of God, because we've experienced it first hand, both in salvation and on a daily basis!

Much is said of the "uncreated light" of God, as the best we can understand of His "essence", (the Mount of Transfiguration experience). However, the prophet, priest, and King, David wrote that God "... clothes Himself with light as with a garment...." By this I mean to say that while The Fathers teach us that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all, the fullness of our knowledge of His essence will only come whenever we finally see Him face to face and know Him as we are known.
The rest, is just the postulations of our pride. But again, I refer you to the disclaimer at the beginning.

a sinful and unworthy servant

Knowledge3

5th March 2007, 05:27 PM

That's teaching.

Yes, from the book <excerpts> of course. :priest:

Philothei

5th March 2007, 05:43 PM

St. Gregory Palamas or the Palamite Theology is what you are looking for:
Here are some links:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gregory_Palamas

Contrary to Barlaam, Gregory asserted that the prophets in fact had greater knowledge of God, because they had actually seen or heard God himself. Addressing the question of how it is possible for humans to have knowledge of a transcendent and unknowable God, he drew a distinction between knowing God in his essence (in Greek, ουσια) and knowing God in his energies (in Greek, ενεργειαι). He maintained the Orthodox doctrine that it remains impossible to know God in his essence (God in himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who he is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals himself to humanity. In doing so, he made reference to the Cappadocian Fathers (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cappadocian_Fathers) and other early Christian writers.

Also this:

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/palamas.html
How is it possible for man to know God and, at the same time, affirm that God is by nature unknowable? St. Gregory answered this question by quoting St. Basil the Great who said "We know our God from His energies, but we do not claim that we can draw near to His essence. For His energies come down to us, but His essence remains unapproachable". St. Gregory added "God is not a nature, for He is above all beings.... No single thing of all that is created has or ever will have even the slightest communion with the supreme nature, or nearness to it". Even though God's essence may be remote from us, He has revealed Himself through His energies (or grace). These energies do not exist apart from God, but are God Himself in His action and revelation to the world. It is through these energies that God enters into a direct and immediate relationship with us. When we say that the saints are 'deified' by the grace of God, we mean that they have a direct experience of God Himself through his energies (or grace), not in His essence.
The vision of Light that Hesychasts receive is the same Light that surrounded Christ on Mount Tabor. It is a true vision of God in His divine energies.

And in order to undestand its fullness you have to read the "Triad" on the energies and essence of God. The full debate is explained somehow in the above links. Palamas brings in the rest of the fathers such as Basil etc.

Hope that helps

God bless,
Philothei

Philothei

5th March 2007, 05:50 PM

I don't know that this is the exact answer! Most often I understand the energies of God as being those things which we readily distinguish as a result of His actions; that is, power, holiness, love, knowledge, mercy, etc., etc., etc.,...
Quite often we make the mistake of saying that the essence of God is love, when in actuality we don't know that. However, we can understand the agape of God, because we've experienced it first hand, both in salvation and on a daily basis!

Much is said of the "uncreated light" of God, as the best we can understand of His "essence", (the Mount of Transfiguration experience). However, the prophet, priest, and King, David wrote that God "... clothes Himself with light as with a garment...." By this I mean to say that while The Fathers teach us that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all, the fullness of our knowledge of His essence will only come whenever we finally see Him face to face and know Him as we are known.
The rest, is just the postulations of our pride. But again, I refer you to the disclaimer at the beginning.

a sinful and unworthy servant
These are energies of God as they are virtues. God is not love because by saying this we limitt God to one thing. We do not know the essence of God. His core being is unknow to man. Read the "The life of Moses" by st. Gregory of Nyssa. That is another book on the essence of God.

that is for now i will get to this later.
God bless,
Philothei

Anhelyna

5th March 2007, 05:55 PM

Yes, from the book <excerpts> of course. :priest:
Grandmother talking here.

Posting extracts and links to books is teaching. It gives the impression that you really know what you are linking too .

You may be ready for this reading [ has your priest said you may read it ?] but other folk may not.

Remember your promise

Anhelyna

VickiY

5th March 2007, 08:09 PM

K3, your links were completely off base to the OP....PLEASE listen to everyone else and do not try to teach that which you have not yet learned!

If you can get a copy of the Triads, it's a help.

Here's another link:

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=31&MONTH=April&YEAR=2003

Knowledge3

5th March 2007, 08:22 PM

Grandmother talking here.

Posting extracts and links to books is teaching. It gives the impression that you really know what you are linking too .

You may be ready for this reading [ has your priest said you may read it ?] but other folk may not.

Remember your promise

Anhelyna

Ok.

I pray daily for guidance and for guidance through my new priest; Fr. Anthony.

And yes, he did give me this book to read.

With humility, I've been blessed to be able read hard literature.

Peace. WP

reference: the theology of the uncreated light.

http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm#s94b

Anhelyna

5th March 2007, 08:43 PM

WP

Like I said you may be ready - but is the other person ?

Now stop teaching - your priest is giving you books for you to read.

You do not recomend them to anyone else .

Their Priests will tell them when they are ready for it.

It's the Great Fast - learn to keep silent for a while

Philothei

5th March 2007, 09:42 PM

Ok.

I pray daily for guidance and for guidance through my new priest; Fr. Anthony.

And yes, he did give me this book to read.

With humility, I've been blessed to be able read hard literature.

Peace. WP

reference: the theology of the uncreated light.

http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm#s94b
That is good W but the real source for the uncreated should be from the fathers of the Church. Like St. Gregory of Nyssa in the "Life of Moses" and St. Basil, and even St. Symeon the new theologian. I think that this is what they are trying to thell you. Hierotheos is great I am not saying he is not. He is great theologian and all but for this case a more acclaimed Father/ Theologian would offer a more valid view to the theme of discussion.

God bless, and have mercy on us.
Humbly, hope someone can add to this, trying to find any other resources....

Philothei

Lotar

5th March 2007, 10:46 PM

Theosis and Deification are two words for the same thing. Theosis is Greek for Deification.

As people have said, God's essense is what He is and His energies is how He interacts with us.

Good authors to consult are Vladimir Lossky, St. Gregory Palamas, and St. Maximos(us) the Confessor.

Adammi

5th March 2007, 10:48 PM

I'm just subscribing to this thread.
(I love this topic)

IowaLutheran

5th March 2007, 10:58 PM

Again, many thanks to all who have posted!

I read The Way of the Pilgrim about a year ago and so I recall being introduced to the hesychast tradition through that book. Thank you all for helping me make the connection between the essence/energies distinction and hesychasm.

I am reading every link you post, so if you can think of more, please let me know.