SDA's and formers ( anyone else is ok to) on Rigtheousness by faith and the law [Archive]

Adventtruth

28th February 2007, 03:16 PM

It's my contention that we obtain righteousness only by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross to pardon our sins. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation on our own or work wise,

Good!

however we do have a part in this plan of salvation. So that our free wills remain intack God places us in the decision making process to make this plan work.

And just how do we get free will?

[quote]We must submit to the callings of the Holy Spirit to confess our sins and repent of them. This is a work in and of itself.

How is this a work? Does work mean to labor and toil?

Then we need to die daily to sin, take up our cross and follow Him.

So what if one day I don't want to die to my sin and follow Him...do I then lose my salvation? Or do you believe we are saved now?

Lastly, it's my contention that the ten commandment law of God has always been and always will be very much in effect and was not fulfilled at the cross as the ceremonial laws were.

So why don't you base your argument on scripture that the ten words where not fulfilled in Jesus? Was Christ merely talking about all of the law but the ten words here?

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The law can never save anyone that is not it's job. It's job is like a mirror which works to point us to the cross where we receive grace and pardon for our sins.

Where is your scripture for this??? Not for the gentile...

Grace is only necessary in light of the law. Without one the other is unecessary. Grace only works if a violation of the law has occurred.

Would be nice if you proved your position from scripture. One could take your ideas as mere speculations.

AT:)

Jimlarmore

28th February 2007, 04:10 PM

Can we die for our sins?

In Rom 6:23 the Bible says "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." So if we have sins we have not confessed and repented of they can cause us to be lost.

Can we accept God's Plan of Salvation thru the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
What Happened to that sin that He became for us?

Christ died for all sins, yours and mine. Those sins will not be imputed to us if we accept Christ as our personal savior and let His grace cover us. However, that does not give us a license to go back to practicing sin again after we are saved. The Bible mentions this in 2 Pet 2:22 "But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Adventtruth

28th February 2007, 04:21 PM

[quote=Jimlarmore;32304096]In Rom 6:23 the Bible says "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." So if we have sins we have not confessed and repented of they can cause us to be lost.

WOW Jim...I hate the way you wrestled that text from its context to make it say what you want it to say. The bible says sin not sins. Its your state not your actions.

Christ died for all sins, yours and mine. Those sins will not be imputed to us if we accept Christ as our personal savior and let His grace cover us. However, that does not give us a license to go back to practicing sin again after we are saved. The Bible mentions this in 2 Pet 2:22 "But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Justified believers Jim dont go back. But they do acts of sin.

AT

Jimlarmore

28th February 2007, 04:28 PM

And just how do we get free will?

It came with your sentient mind and your ability to chose right from wrong. The entire Bible is about God seeking to have man chose to do right and obstain from doing wrong. God does not force His will upon us but beckons us to submit to His will. That makes our wills free.

How is this a work? Does work mean to labor and toil?

Any action on our part is initiated in the mind/soul/spirit and then becomes a tangible outward display or work. That work may be a result of the calling of the Holy Spirit but it still takes a conscious decision on our part.

So what if one day I don't want to die to my sin and follow Him...do I then lose my salvation? Or do you believe we are saved now?

I can only go by what the Bible tells us to do. Dying daily is working on sanctification. If we spend a whole day with our back turned on the Lord and at the end of that day die unexpectedly ,,,,,,, well God is the final judge on that.

So why don't you base your argument on scripture that the ten words where not fulfilled in Jesus? Was Christ merely talking about all of the law but the ten words here?

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Bible confirms the sustainment of every one of the ten commandments in the new testament. My post was to challenge anyone to show me from scripture what part of the ten commandments was fulfilled by the death of Christ on the cross. I can show from scripture how the ceremonial laws were fulfilled but not the ten commandments.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

28th February 2007, 04:34 PM

."

Justified believers Jim dont go back. But they do acts of sin.

AT

Please explain what you mean by this. If someone does acts of sin yet they don't go back sounds like once saved always saved. IOW, you have a license to sin all you want, right?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

28th February 2007, 05:23 PM

It came with your sentient mind and your ability to chose right from wrong. The entire Bible is about God seeking to have man chose to do right and obstain from doing wrong. God does not force His will upon us but beckons us to submit to His will. That makes our wills free.
The entire Bible is not about what we do, it's about what God did for us, on our bahalf, by sending his son Jesus Christ to become sin for us in order that he could make us righteous, by his own righteousness, before God. He accomplishes his good works by putting his own Spirit in us who CAUSES us to reflect the glory of God more and more.

It's not about our works, but his. Our works, ALL of them, are filthy rags. Its not about our 'abilities', as you said above, but his sovereignty and love to save sinful man.

Any action on our part is initiated in the mind/soul/spirit and then becomes a tangible outward display or work. That work may be a result of the calling of the Holy Spirit but it still takes a conscious decision on our part.
If we follow the Spirit he will produce HIS good works in us. Our works are filthy rags (so we don't want to rely on our works for righteousness!).

I can only go by what the Bible tells us to do. Dying daily is working on sanctification. If we spend a whole day with our back turned on the Lord and at the end of that day die unexpectedly ,,,,,,, well God is the final judge on that.
There is absolutely NO ASSURANCE of salvation in what you said above. You just described 'on-again, off-again' salvation that is completely dependent on your own ability to focus on God and repent of each slip, each thought, each action, each 'filthy rag' hopefully before you die...OR ELSE!

God didn't call us to live like that. We can be absolutely confident in what HE did for us and what HE is doing in us since HE lives in us. In Christ we have ABSOLUTE assurance, because HE is worthy and HE is faithful!

The Bible confirms the sustainment of every one of the ten commandments in the new testament. My post was to challenge anyone to show me from scripture what part of the ten commandments was fulfilled by the death of Christ on the cross. I can show from scripture how the ceremonial laws were fulfilled but not the ten commandments.
The 10 commandments were the heart of the old covenant housed in the ark of the covenant. The old covenant was NO LESS than the 10 commandments.

You either live under the old covenant/10 commandments, or you live under the new covenant (NOT like the covenant made with Israel). You're either married to the law or to Christ...but not both (Romans 7).

Jimlarmore

28th February 2007, 06:24 PM

The entire Bible is not about what we do, it's about what God did for us, on our bahalf, by sending his son Jesus Christ to become sin for us in order that he could make us righteous, by his own righteousness, before God. He accomplishes his good works by putting his own Spirit in us who CAUSES us to reflect the glory of God more and more.

Very true but we still have to decide to allow this to happen otherwise God is violating our free wills.

If we follow the Spirit he will produce HIS good works in us. Our works are filthy rags (so we don't want to rely on our works for righteousness!).

I just bolded the part/work of your statement that involves our part of this wonderful thing you just described.

There is absolutely NO ASSURANCE of salvation in what you said above. You just described 'on-again, off-again' salvation that is completely dependent on your own ability to focus on God and repent of each slip, each thought, each action, each 'filthy rag' hopefully before you die...OR ELSE!

The Bible is full of on again off again examples of life and salvation. Look at King David, Peter and Paul himself. He said many times that the things he would do that he does not and the things he would not do that he does. There's nothing in the Bible that says once we are saved that we can't slip and fall. We can have assurance of salvation as long as we remain focused on Christ. An occasionaly slip is not what will kill us if it is confessed and repented of however a practice of sin can be deadly.

If you think you have a license to practice sin because of the grace of Christ then according to you that grace gives you a license to sin. That is nothing more than once saved always saved.

God didn't call us to live like that. We can be absolutely confident in what HE did for us and what HE is doing in us since HE lives in us. In Christ we have ABSOLUTE assurance, because HE is worthy and HE is faithful!

You bet He is but that doesn't mean it's ok to now sin with impunity and expect Christ to forgive us even if we don't confess and repent of our sins.

The 10 commandments were the heart of the old covenant housed in the ark of the covenant. The old covenant was NO LESS than the 10 commandments.

You either live under the old covenant/10 commandments, or you live under the new covenant (NOT like the covenant made with Israel). You're either married to the law or to Christ...but not both (Romans 7).

Actually, the old covenant was an agreement between God and His people and not the ten commandment law itself. The 10- were part of the requriements of the old covenant but not the covenant itself. Anyway, It was this agreement to keep the ten that was broken by the people. The ten words or commandments had nothing to do with sacrificial animals or feasts or any of that. They are eternal principles that reflect the very character of God. The first four are how we are to relate to our creator and the last 6 tells us how we are to relate to our fellow man. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ tells me that we need to abandone a close relationship to God or that we can now mistreat our fellow man. Your false interpretation of scriptures does not make sense.

In Hebrews the Bible says the new covenant would put the laws of God in our hearts and minds. The laws of God spoken of here is the ten commandments and even in a more stingent sense because now we are living in the spirit of the ten commandments rather than the letter of the law only.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

28th February 2007, 07:00 PM

Very true but we still have to decide to allow this to happen otherwise God is violating our free wills.
If you cling to your 'free will' it will kill you. God's 'will' WILL prevail, not ours. Our 'will' is against God, for our flesh is sinful.

I just bolded the part/work of your statement that involves our part of this wonderful thing you just described.
You believe that following the Spirit is our work? Romans 8 actually says that it's the Spirit that controls our minds. V.9, "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)"

Not our 'work' Jim. Our works are filthy rags and result in our destruction.

The Bible is full of on again off again examples of life and salvation. Look at King David, Peter and Paul himself. He said many times that the things he would do that he does not and the things he would not do that he does. There's nothing in the Bible that says once we are saved that we can't slip and fall. We can have assurance of salvation as long as we remain focused on Christ. An occasionaly slip is not what will kill us if it is confessed and repented of however a practice of sin can be deadly.
Any sin will kill you! The Bible is full of utter and complete sinners falling down continually! Slipping and falling is what sinners in sinful flesh do continually!

Paul DID the things he didn't want to do. But he was not lost/saved/lost/saved/lost/saved/lost/saved because of his struggle with sin in sinful flesh. He said:

"Oh what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giveing his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit."

Assurance of salvation is not dependent on our 'works' (filthy rags) or our 'abilities' to remain focussed on Christ. Our assurance comes from the fact that Jesus presented his blood as a one time sacrifice for all of our sin (not just our past sins!). We must have perfect righteousness to be saved. Only Jesus has it and he credits (imputes) those who believe in him with his righteousness. IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED! HE'S THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER!

If you think you have a license to practice sin because of the grace of Christ then according to you that grace gives you a license to sin. That is nothing more than once saved always saved.
Nobody is saying that Jim. I have no 'obligation' to follow my sinful nature, but am instead controlled by the Spirit who lives in me.

You bet He is but that doesn't mean it's ok to now sin with impunity and expect Christ to forgive us even if we don't confess and repent of our sins.
The Spirit lives in us and God has already destroyed sin's control over us through Christ. Jesus already fulfilled the requirement of the law for us. We live daily in Christ and his finished work, with his Spirit leading our minds. What's better than that?

Actually, the old covenant was an agreement between God and His people and not the ten commandment law itself. The 10- were part of the requriements of the old covenant but not the covenant itself. Anyway, It was this agreement to keep the ten that was broken by the people. The ten words or commandments had nothing to do with sacrificial animals or feasts or any of that. They are eternal principles that reflect the very character of God. The first four are how we are to relate to our creator and the last 6 tells us how we are to relate to our fellow man. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ tells me that we need to abandone a close relationship to God or that we can now mistreat our fellow man. Your false interpretation of scriptures does not make sens.
Jim, the Bible clearly calls the 10 commandments the covenant made with Israel. It also clearly shows that breaking one of the commandments was breaking the actual covenant. I will post this in another post so this one doesn't get too long. It's what the Bible ACTUALLY says in almost a dozen places.

Also, if you maintain that the 10 commandments were NOT part of the old covenant, then there's no way they could be part of the new one either. The clear reading of the texts don't agree with your assertion.

In Hebrews the Bible says the new covenant would put the laws of God in our hearts and minds. The laws of God spoken of here is the ten commandments and even in a more stingent sense because now we are living in the spirit of the ten commandments rather than the letter of the law only.
Hebrews (and Jer. 31) also says that the new covenant would NOT be like the covenant made with Israel's forefathers when he took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. They did not remain fiathful to his covenant...they broke it!

Also, the new covenant says that God forgives ALL their 'wrongdoings' and he will NEVER again remember their sins.

But what you've presented has us lost one minute, saved the next, lost again, then saved again, in a continual repetitive, cyclical, never-ending quagmire of never knowing if WE have made sure that EVERY sin, every thought, every action, every idle word, etc. has been repented of so that if we die we won't die lost. How is that the OVERWHELMING VICTORIOUS Christian life because of what Christ has done for us?

Eila

28th February 2007, 07:17 PM

Actually, the old covenant was an agreement between God and His people and not the ten commandment law itself. The 10- were part of the requriements of the old covenant but not the covenant itself.

Deut 4:13 "He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets."

Based on this text wouldn't the interpretation be that the covenant was the 10 commandments?

Anyway, It was this agreement to keep the ten that was broken by the people. The ten words or commandments had nothing to do with sacrificial animals or feasts or any of that.

The fourth commandment is a weekly ceremony.

They are eternal principles that reflect the very character of God. The first four are how we are to relate to our creator and the last 6 tells us how we are to relate to our fellow man. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ tells me that we need to abandone a close relationship to God or that we can now mistreat our fellow man. Your false interpretation of scriptures does not make sense.

In Hebrews the Bible says the new covenant would put the laws of God in our hearts and minds. The laws of God spoken of here is the ten commandments and even in a more stingent sense because now we are living in the spirit of the ten commandments rather than the letter of the law only.

What evidence is there to say that this law on our hearts is the 10 commandments? Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." What changed in the law?

KrisCarol

28th February 2007, 09:37 PM

Please explain what you mean by this. If someone does acts of sin yet they don't go back sounds like once saved always saved. IOW, you have a license to sin all you want, right?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Once I'm born does that mean that I have a license to keep being born? Or do I accept that I am born and
LIVE.

Does Once Saved Always Saved mean that I have a definite urge to do Harm to my neighbor, to steal from my neighbor, to commit adultery with my neighbor.

Why do you associate the 2.

BTW I am OSAS because I have been enlightened and I have tasted of the heavenly gift and I have no intention of going back to wondering if I am or if I am not saved. If I would ever go back there is no sacrifice left for me to be saved from the sin of unbelief.

Hebrews 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=6&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Do you understand what it says here or do you twist and turn it to make it say what you think it says.

reddogs

1st March 2007, 07:33 AM

The belief of "once saved always saved" really is a variation of saved by (your own) works which is a snare to true believers, as its adherents feel that they did the work so they now have divine pardon for any sin they do instead of repenting from them and letting God work within them. They have no real "faith" in the gift of salvation but depend on their "works" and that is not how Paul shows us in scripture, so far as salvation is concerned, grace and works are mutually exclusive. Salvation is by grace through faith alone; there is no such thing as divine grace plus human "works". "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9).*

God's saving grace is: the means whereby "we might be justified . . . and become heirs in hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7).

God's free gift, "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith" (Rom. 3:24, 25).

The Bible's teaching however is clear that no person has sinned to much or gone too far to be brought home by God's grace when that person approaches God in absolute surrender and faith. "Whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV) . However, we do not take this "grace" and then say nothing I do will now be sin, or I got a pardon so now I can sin all I want. Even a pardon from the President would not stop the police from rearresting a pardonned felon who then goes and commits a new crime. If we work hard just to get a pardon and care not about what the pardon frees us from and we work to get it just so we can go and commit more sin, then it is not by "grace you have been saved through faith." Here is a good explanation of how by John M. Fowler:

"...Redemption has its source, its means, its completion, in God's love as manifested in Jesus Christ. That's the foundation upon which the entire gospel is built and proclaimed. Those who believe in Jesus are saved, and those who do not believe are condemned. "The gospel . . . is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith. . . . For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith; as it is written, 'He who through faith is righteous shall live'" (Rom. 1:16, 17).

But the very fact that salvation is intertwined in God's love shows that the first limitation of God's grace is our human response to that grace. "God is love" (1 John 4:8), and love cannot force allegiance. All that God does--His plan of creation, providence, redemption, relationship, restoration, and judgment--proceeds from love. While He does not "drive away" any sinner who may come to Him (John 6:37, NIV), He cannot force anyone to come to Him against that person's will.

Freedom of choice plays an essential role in salvation. If salvation comes by a forced allegiance to God, it would not be an act of a loving God, but the desperate measure of a super tyrant--something totally different from the very character of God. Hence God's abundant, free, and all-powerful grace cannot save a sinner unwilling to come to Him and accept through faith the redemption that God has provided in Jesus. Our freedom of choice can effectively limit the working of grace...."

"...Another limitation to God's grace comes from human pride that one can save oneself by one's own works. The doctrine of righteousness by works is as old as sin itself. "The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion," wrote Ellen White.1 ...."

"...Another word for such pretension is legalism. The apostle Paul indicted the Galatians for quickly deserting "the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--not that there is another gospel" (Gal. 1:6, NRSV).
The Galatians, who accepted Christ and entered into a salvation experience through faith in Him (Gal. 3:1, 2), were now in serious peril of losing that experience because they were attributing their salvation to their works. The apostle asked, "Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?" (verse 2, NRSV).

Paul was quite firm: "We have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law (Gal. 2:16, NRSV). Wrote Ellen White: The robe of Christ's righteousness, "woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising."2 ...."

"..We are saved by grace through faith, and the resulting freedom is not meant to live as one pleases, but to live in accordance with God's will, as revealed in His law. Salvation comes by faith, but must lead to obedience, the natural sequence to God's gracious liberation from sin.

Consider Jesus' assertion and hope in John 14 and 15. Just as the relationship of Jesus with the Father preceded His obedience to the Father, so should the disciples' relationship with Jesus precede their obedience to Him. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

Observe the hope Jesus has for His disciples. "Abide in me," He said, "as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me" (John 15:4, NRSV).

Christian discipleship is not the achievement of a moral status, but the reception of Christ's calling; it is not moral perfection, but a constant abiding in Him. Once that abiding is established through faith in God's grace, fruit follows as a natural course. The principle is simple: first love, then fruit; first grace, then obedience......"

Paul wrote: "By the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them [the apostles], though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me" (1 Cor. 15:10).

Paul did not receive grace in order to sin or get to eternal life because he faked it and got a pardon. Nowhere does the Bible teach such a false assumption"once saved, always saved.". It just leads Christians to take their salvation experience for granted and lead lives of lethargy and indifference.

While the power of God's love and grace is great and abundant, it does not guarantee that once a person accepts that love and grace he or she will not fail. Scriptures is clear on this:

"Be watchful, stand firm in your faith, be courageous, be strong" (1 Cor. 16:13).

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Gal. 5:1).

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Eph. 6:11, 12).

"Let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall" (l Cor. 10:12).

"Be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).

reddogs

1st March 2007, 07:50 AM

So how does God bring us close without trying to do it our own and fall into the snare of salvation by works?Well, how do we develop a relationship with God? How do we go from acquaintance to personal relationship? What takes one from knowing facts about God to actually knowing Him?

Knowing about God is commonplace. Actually knowing God is something vastly different. It ought to be our our main objective, our singular purpose, to get near to God. The nearer we come to God, the more He will reveal Himself to us. Only in an intimate relationship with God can we hear His voice, know His will, and understand His heart.

We know others best through communication. It is not different here; we know God the same way. “I will meet with thee and I will commune with thee,” says the Lord (Ex. 25:22). Communication with God involves successive steps, all of them quite natural.

We must first commune with God. This embraces an inestimable privilege. God invites us to enter into active daily communion. We might well begin by thoughtfully meditating. We should daily reserve time quietly to think of God’s surpassing grace, mercy, love, kindness, generosity, and goodness toward His creation.

“Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing” (Ps. 145:16). “In thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore” (Ps. 16:11).

Meditation upon God will awaken in us understanding and gratitude. Gratitude felt is gratitude expressed. Thanking God is the ideal way to initiate active communication with Him. When we thank God, it will stimulate us to “draw nigh to God.” And in His response we find His irrevocable promise that “He will draw nigh to [us]” (James 4:8).

This also involves our speaking with God in prayer. Prayer is indispensable to our spiritual communication with God. Jesus often spent entire nights in prayer. He prayed aloud. Scripture records His prayers, many of these in the Gospel of John. Yet many would think it strange, if not excessive, to hear it suggested that Christians daily spend one hour in prayer, with nothing else interrupting.

We must study so we have understanding and expand our mind and our thoughts in Scripture and in prayer. “As [one] thinketh in his heart, so is he” (Prov. 23:7). To draw near to God, we must learn to take His powerful thoughts from His Word, and grow in our lives. “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” God says (Isa. 55:8).

We must allow God’s Word to nurture our spirit. The scriptures contain all of the nutrients needed for spiritual growth. “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

A devout or Christ-centered person is one who lives increasingly attuned to the will of God. They consider God in everything. All the parts of our daily life are consecrated to God. The devotional life, allows for righteousness by faith imputed to be joined by righteousness by faith imparted and installed within, in the soul.

This is defined as holiness. We do not find time to be holy. We must take it, thereby joining imputed righteousness and becoming instilled and installed constituent parts of godliness and godly living.

A devotional life is the life-source for all of the needed spiritual qualities. When the life takes on such devotion, the life reflects the stamp of God. So often we try to develop Christian conduct and character without taking time to develop Christ-centered devotion. We try to please God without taking time to walk with Him and develop a relationship with Him. This is why so many fail. Devotion is the mainspring of Christian character.This God-centered devotion is the only motivation for Christian behavior that is pleasing to God. This is what separates the godly person from the moral person, from the benevolent person.

Paul shows the connection exists between being and knowing. Paul the apostle explains the key dynamic: indwelling. “My little children, of whom I travail . . . until Christ be formed in you” (Gal. 4:19). “For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people” (2 Cor. 6:16).

“God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory . . .” (Col. 1:27).

Enoch had a devotional life such as all can aspire to. Moses says in Genesis that Enoch “walked with God” (Gen. 5:22). To walk with God is to enjoy an intimately personal relationship with Him. Hebrews 11, the Christian Hall of Fame, depicts Enoch from a slightly different perspective. He is described as one who “pleased God.”

So, Enoch walked with God and he pleased God. It is evident that Enoch’s life was centered in God. A person can be moral, benevolent, and not godly.

We most also align our lives with Gods will and this is where surrender comes in. Surrender as in the daily practice of giving oneself over to God. It means “putting on” Jesus Christ and His godliness as intentionally as we dress ourselves in clothes. It means the imitating and emulating of Christ’s values. We put on godliness in the thoughts that we choose to think, in the words that we say, in the actions we take, and in the deeds we do. Conduct produces character. What we do, we become.

Since conduct determines character, it is vitally important that we practice godliness every day. That is why Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5, 6 (NIV): “Make every effort to add to your faith . . . godliness.”

If we want to be godly Christians, we must practice godliness day by day, as well. We are Christians in practice. “Not that I have obtained,” Paul says triumphantly, “but I press toward the mark of the high calling . . .” (see Phil. 3:12).

To align our lives with His plans and purposes is to validate what pleases God. “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good . . .” (Micah 6:8).

KrisCarol

1st March 2007, 09:33 AM

Very true *but we still have to decide to allow this to happen otherwise God is violating our free wills.

I just bolded the part/work of your statement that involves our part of this wonderful thing you just described.

The Bible is full of on again off again examples of life and salvation. Look at King David, Peter and Paul himself. He said many times that the things he would do that he does not and the things he would not do that he does. There's nothing in the Bible that says once we are saved that we can't slip and fall. We can have assurance of salvation as long as we remain focused on Christ. An occasionaly slip is not what will kill us if it is confessed and repented of however a practice of sin can be deadly.

If you think you have a license to practice sin because of the grace of Christ then according to you that grace gives you a license to sin. That is nothing more than once saved always saved.

You bet He is but that doesn't mean it's ok to now sin with impunity and expect Christ to forgive us even if we don't confess and repent of our sins.

Actually, the old covenant was an agreement between God and His people and not the ten commandment law itself. The 10- were part of the requriements of the old covenant but not the covenant itself. Anyway, It was this agreement to keep the ten that was broken by the people. The ten words or commandments had nothing to do with sacrificial animals or feasts or any of that. They are eternal principles that reflect the very character of God. The first four are how we are to relate to our creator and the last 6 tells us how we are to relate to our fellow man. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ tells me that we need to abandone a close relationship to God or that we can now mistreat our fellow man. Your false interpretation of scriptures does not make sense.

In Hebrews the Bible says the new covenant would put the laws of God in our hearts and minds. The laws of God spoken of here is the ten commandments and even in a more stingent sense because now we are living in the spirit of the ten commandments rather than the letter of the law only.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Your *"BUT" is the sin that cannot be atoned for.

God's But thru His teacher Paul is the only But that serves any real purpose in Salvation.

The wages of sin are death, BUT the gift of God is eternal Life.

It's a gift, understand.

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 10:16 AM

Jim, I pulled this out of another thread where I was discussing this with reddogs.

You are trying to establish that God didn't give Israel ONE law, but that it was a divided law into 'Ceremonial' and 'Moral'. (The Jews would disagree with you BTW!)

You attempt to establish this so that you can extract the 10 Commandments out in an attempt to say that they were not a part of the covenant made with Israel, by God at Mt. Horeb after he led them out of slavery in Egypt.

Your premise is that the 10 commandments WERE NOT part of the OLD COVENANT, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddogs
Again, it is impossible for the Ten Commandments to have been part of the Old Covenant that was done away with; as such it was NOT the law that Christ nailed to the cross.

OK. So how would you redefine these passages to fit your premise?

Deut 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.Deut 9:9 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. Deut 9:11 "It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.1 Kings 8:21 "There I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."1 Kings 8:9 "There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt."Hebrews 9:4 ...having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;There's more, but I think this at least establishes that the 10 Commandments/Tablets of Stone were the VERY HEART of the Old Covenant.

Breaking one of the 10 was equated with breaking the covenant! That would be difficult if they were not part of the covenant as you have claimed.

Deut 29:25, 26 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them. Deut 31:16 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.Judges 2:19, 20 But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their stubborn ways. So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice,Joshua 23:16 "When you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you."2 Kings 17:15, 16 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.Joshua 7:10, 11 The LORD said to Joshua, "Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions.The Bible CLEARLY shows that the 10 Commandments were THE COVENANT, the very heart of it, that God made with Israel, and it further shows that breaking one of the 10 Commandments was equivalent of breaking the Covenant (as demonstrated by Israel breaking numbers 1, 2, 8, & 10)!

Before moving forward from here it would be good if you could show how you redefine all of these verses to establish your premise that the 10 Commandments were not a part of the covenant God made with Israel.

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 11:10 AM

Deut 4:13 "He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets."

Based on this text wouldn't the interpretation be that the covenant was the 10 commandments?

Look up covenant in the dictionary and see the components that comprise a covenant. Basically, It's an agreement between two or more parties with stipulations and clauses that define the agreement. The ten commandments are the stipulations and clauses of this covenant which only makes them a part of the covenant not the covenant itself. BTW, covenants were early precursors to what we call contracts today. Anyway, it's the agreement between the parties that is the actual covenant and it was this agreement/covenant that didn't work back then between God and Israel.

The fourth commandment is a weekly ceremony.

The shabbot was much more than a mere ceremony for Israel back then and to us today. It's Holy time set aside for Holy use for the people of God to commune with Him and rest in His love. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ or His grace makes that essential day unnecessary for us now. We need the Sabbath more today than we ever did.

What evidence is there to say that this law on our hearts is the 10 commandments? Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." What changed in the law?

The only law that was changed was the requirement to observe the ceremial laws because Christ fulfilled them. Any time you see the phrase the laws of God in the Bible it is usually speaking of the ten commandments. In this case Heb 10:16 , the wording " I will write them" gives us a clue that since the ten words were written on tables of stone, then it is the same ten that is now written on the hearts and minds of the people of God. Heb 8:10 gives us a very similar look at this same concept but the wording is different and may be an allusionary quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them."

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I wll put my laws into their minds and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people."

Jer 31:31, 33 " Behold the days come saith the Lord that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people."

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Adventtruth

1st March 2007, 11:31 AM

[quote=Jimlarmore;32304628]It came with your sentient mind and your ability to chose right from wrong. The entire Bible is about God seeking to have man chose to do right and obstain from doing wrong. God does not force His will upon us but beckons us to submit to His will. That makes our wills free.

Once again Jim...you provide nothing other than your own reasonings of what God does for us and not the bible truth. Why???

The bible tells us that when God created mankind in his state of innocence he had freedom of the will to please God. I base my argument on:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (KJV) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
When man fell into sin, he lost all ability to do any spiritual good in pleasing God, his mind was only on fleshly and carnal things things.

Genesis 6:5 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 8:7 (KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8 (KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Mankind in their fallen condition is not even able to come to God unless it is God who draws them. It is not mankind who is born with free will...it is mankind who have wills made free! My argument is Based on

John 6:44-45 (KJV) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Ephesians 2:2-5 (KJV) 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Titus 3:3-5 (KJV) 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any action on our part is initiated in the mind/soul/spirit and then becomes a tangible outward display or work. That work may be a result of the calling of the Holy Spirit but it still takes a conscious decision on our part.

I would not call it work.

I can only go by what the Bible tells us to do. Dying daily is working on sanctification. If we spend a whole day with our back turned on the Lord and at the end of that day die unexpectedly ,,,,,,, well God is the final judge on that.

So again you make salvation based upon your sanctification and not your union with Christ!

Romans 6:22 (KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The Bible confirms the sustainment of every one of the ten commandments in the new testament. My post was to challenge anyone to show me from scripture what part of the ten commandments was fulfilled by the death of Christ on the cross. I can show from scripture how the ceremonial laws were fulfilled but not the ten commandments.

If you believe that Jesus did not fulfill the whole law, then you have a fundamental flaw in your theology. Adam was in a covanant of works with God, he failed. The nation of Israel as the typeology of salvation was in a covanant of works with God and they failed. Jesus, the goal of all of Israel, was in a covanant of redemption with God and He fulfilled it all...How? Because He in His Divine holiness was greater than the law. It is yours by faith if you want it.

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV) 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This is the flaw in your theology. If you believe that Christ did not fulfill all of righteousness for you, then there is still something you must do, being in a covanant of works. You must fulfill the law on your own. You are under the curse. I don't think I need to give you scripture for this.

AT:)

Adventtruth

1st March 2007, 11:49 AM

Please explain what you mean by this. If someone does acts of sin yet they don't go back sounds like once saved always saved. IOW, you have a license to sin all you want, right?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Its simple. Justified sinners are justified because they trust that Jesus died for them.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If justified believers do acts of sin, they are not cast off but are out of fellowship with God.

1 John 1:6-9 (KJV) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Justified believers continue to walk in darkness, they risk the chance of not being Justified before God based on the fact they no longer trust God by faith alone. They no longer are guided by the Spirit of truth. They have fallen from grace. They seek there own righteousness in what they do. They are justified in the carnality of their own minds...trusting in them selves and not God.

John 16:13 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Galatians 5:4-6 (KJV) 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

AT:)

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 11:59 AM

Once I'm born does that mean that I have a license to keep being born? Or do I accept that I am born and
LIVE.

Salvation is comprised of three elements.
1. Justification: this happens when we give our life to the Lord and are born again as you have mentioned above.
2. Sanctification: this is where we live a daily consecrated life dying to self and allowing the Lord to make a saint out of us.
3. Glorification: this is when we get our new body when the Lord comes back.

The problem with many is that they think once they are saved/justified that is it. They can no longer sin anymore because they are under the grace of Christ. Even if they comit adultery or lie or steal, it's not imputed them whether they confess and repent or not. This is not Biblical.

Does Once Saved Always Saved mean that I have a definite urge to do Harm to my neighbor, to steal from my neighbor, to commit adultery with my neighbor.

The Bible says the day will come when this mortal will put on immortality and this corruptible will put on incorruption. Until then we all can be corrupted or fall away from Christ. What you are contending is this truth in the Bible is not true. Once saved says once you are saved then you become incorruptible right then and can't sin anymore.

BTW I am OSAS because I have been enlightened and I have tasted of the heavenly gift and I have no intention of going back to wondering if I am or if I am not saved. If I would ever go back there is no sacrifice left for me to be saved from the sin of unbelief.

Praise God brother. Let me ask you a question, do you sin today? What is sin to you now that you are saved?

Hebrews 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=6&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Do you understand what it says here or do you twist and turn it to make it say what you think it says.

God forbid I would twist any of God's truth. Look at the text you have quoted above. Really read what it is saying. Does it really say that once you are saved you will always be saved or does it say something else?

Heb 6:4-6 " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God , and the powers of the world to come.

If they fall away to renew them again unto repentence seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put HIm to an open shame."

If you take the first part that I bolded and allow the italics part to modify it then add the second part I bolded you get the true meaning of this. What this is saying is that it is impossible once you have been truely saved and tasted of the devine nature , if you fall away to renew them to repentence again. This does not say anything about once saved always saved. If anything this is a text that could be used to teach once lost always lost after being saved.

Fortunately, we can derive from the context that this does not mean if we turn our back on God that we can't repent again. From verse 1 on this passage has to do with leaving the principles and doctrines of Christ. Once we experience the devine nature and turn away from the greatest thing in the world we can and will loose our desire to return without the workings of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 12:31 PM

Salvation is comprised of three elements.
1. Justification: this happens when we give our life to the Lord and are born again as you have mentioned above.
2. Sanctification: this is where we live a daily consecrated life dying to self and allowing the Lord to make a saint out of us.
3. Glorification: this is when we get our new body when the Lord comes back.

The problem with many is that they think once they are saved/justified that is it. They can no longer sin anymore because they are under the grace of Christ. Even if they comit adultery or lie or steal, it's not imputed them whether they confess and repent or not. This is not Biblical.
Are any of these our works? It's an emphatic NO! So stop hacking on those who are led by the Spirit and are secure in Christ because of faith (which he gave us).

It's righteousness by FAITH! Sin was imputed before we were even born. Sin is a much deeper problem than what we do. Sin exists on a cellular level, and affects every atom we are made up of.

Righteousness is imputed when we believe in Jesus for our salvation. The Holy Spirit living in us is the guarantee (not our own works!!!!!!!!!!). Our works are filthy rags (ALL of them!!!!!!!)

You know, this whole thread...every conversation...every posting of Scripture...everything SDA ultimately leads back to the Sabbath. The Sabbath is why you must return to the law or old covenant. I hear stealing, lying, and other things brought up but you know good and well that the Holy Spirit does not lead believers to do those things. You run to the Sabbath because it is your identity, your purpose for living, it's half of your name (Seventh-day).

But...while you're lifting up the Sabbath, many other Christians are lifting up Christ because HE is their identity, HE is the one who gave them purpose for living, and HE is their name (Christian).

I know good and well that you will pretty much discount what I've just said and lift the law and Sabbath back up. And that's OK. I used to do the same thing as an SDA pastor. But I'm telling you, when the veil is removed you'll see that the grass is SO much greener. You don't even realize the burden you're carrying around right now because it seems normal. The bondage seems like freedom. I promise you though, it's still bondage.

Jesus is our everything. He is eternal life, and he is salvation. He is truth, and he is the only way! Lift up Jesus.

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 12:57 PM

Deut 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death blessing and cursing, therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. " There is nothing here that tells us that God is making anyone do anything but places a decision before them. The whole Bible is full of this scenario. In Christ's time we find texts like this.

Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem Jerusalem thou that killest the propehts and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not . Clearly, here Christ is lamenting over the fact that the people of God made a decision to turn against God.

This is the flaw in your theology. If you believe that Christ did not fulfill all of righteousness for you, then there is still something you must do, being in a covanant of works. You must fulfill the law on your own. You are under the curse. I don't think I need to give you scripture for this.[quote]

If I had no part what so ever in the plan of salvation then me and everyone else would be saved because according to the Bible in John God doesn't want to loose anyone. However, if that is the case then I, we are nothing more than automatons with no decisions to make. You are right that Christ has done it all but He still demands that I choose to believe in Him and live under His grace. Righteousness and obedience go hand in hand. One cannot exist without the other.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 01:16 PM

Are any of these our works? It's an emphatic NO! So stop hacking on those who are led by the Spirit and are secure in Christ because of faith (which he gave us).

The Bible makes it very clear that faith without works is dead in James 2. That is not me speaking but the Bible. If you feel that's hacking then so be it. The Bible also tells me that obedience and righteousness go together.

It's righteousness by FAITH! Sin was imputed before we were even born. Sin is a much deeper problem than what we do. Sin exists on a cellular level, and affects every atom we are made up of.

Righteousness is imputed when we believe in Jesus for our salvation. The Holy Spirit living in us is the guarantee (not our own works!!!!!!!!!!). Our works are filthy rags (ALL of them!!!!!!!)

Absolutely, yet we still have a work to do. We must submit to the Holy Spirit and die daily. It takes an effort on our part to live for Christ because we are all still in a corruptible state. When we are glorified then we can say we are saved forever and we cannot sin anymore.

You know, this whole thread...every conversation...every posting of Scripture...everything SDA ultimately leads back to the Sabbath. The Sabbath is why you must return to the law or old covenant. I hear stealing, lying, and other things brought up but you know good and well that the Holy Spirit does not lead believers to do those things. You run to the Sabbath because it is your identity, your purpose for living, it's half of your name (Seventh-day).

I know you and all those like you are about putting down the Sabbath. This is the way you start out your web-sites is defaming and invalidating the Sabbath. The Sabbath is vital but it's only one of the ten. You yourself mentioned in your time of frustration having impure thoughts and coveting so I don't know why you make such a big deal out of the Sabbath now. You apparently have thrown out all of the ten so why not say it's ok to comit adultery, lie or steal? If you read your Bible it says if you break one you are guilty of them all.

But...while you're lifting up the Sabbath, many other Christians are lifting up Christ because HE is their identity, HE is the one who gave them purpose for living, and HE is their name (Christian).

I have seen Christ in the Sabbath as I contemplate it's significance in my life but I also lift Him up as the champion of all sinners to save a lost and dying world.

I know good and well that you will pretty much discount what I've just said and lift the law and Sabbath back up. And that's OK. I used to do the same thing as an SDA pastor. But I'm telling you, when the veil is removed you'll see that the grass is SO much greener. You don't even realize the burden you're carrying around right now because it seems normal. The bondage seems like freedom. I promise you though, it's still bondage.

Jesus is our everything. He is eternal life, and he is salvation. He is truth, and he is the only way! Lift up Jesus.

The bondage Christ came to free us from is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. Grace cannot be about leading us back into sin again and that is what you are saying. Have you given up confessing and repenting of your sins yet? I asked adventtruth this on the other forum and he said he still confessed and repented but I wondered why at the time.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

1st March 2007, 01:42 PM

Look up covenant in the dictionary and see the components that comprise a covenant. Basically, It's an agreement between two or more parties with stipulations and clauses that define the agreement. The ten commandments are the stipulations and clauses of this covenant which only makes them a part of the covenant not the covenant itself. BTW, covenants were early precursors to what we call contracts today. Anyway, it's the agreement between the parties that is the actual covenant and it was this agreement/covenant that didn't work back then between God and Israel.

A contract is an agreement. The piece of paper called a contract is the agreement written down. All the words written down were part of the agreement. This agreement was faulty because it was made between God and man. The new covenant is not faulty. It was made between God the Father and God the Son. God the Son made the covenant on behalf of man and the ONLY way we can access this covenant is by faith in Jesus. This is why our works are not related to salvation. It is His work that we have faith in. Our works are good, but they do nothing toward this new covenant of His blood.

The shabbot was much more than a mere ceremony for Israel back then and to us today. It's Holy time set aside for Holy use for the people of God to commune with Him and rest in His love. Nothing in the sacrifice of Christ or His grace makes that essential day unnecessary for us now. We need the Sabbath more today than we ever did.

Why do you need the Sabbath more today than you ever did?

The only law that was changed was the requirement to observe the ceremial laws because Christ fulfilled them. Any time you see the phrase the laws of God in the Bible it is usually speaking of the ten commandments.

In Matthew 5 it says " For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

According to this nothing in the law has passed away until all is fulfilled. This would mean all the things listed in the Law of Moses because Jesus goes on to describe things from the 10 commandments and the Book of the Law.

So you are saying that the law didn't change, just part of it is not longer applicable?

In this case Heb 10:16 , the wording " I will write them" gives us a clue that since the ten words were written on tables of stone, then it is the same ten that is now written on the hearts and minds of the people of God. Heb 8:10 gives us a very similar look at this same concept but the wording is different and may be an allusionary quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them."

Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I wll put my laws into their minds and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people."

Jer 31:31, 33 " Behold the days come saith the Lord that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people."

Due to the word "write" you are saying that these laws are the 10 commandments? Nomos - the Greek word for law is found all over the NT and sometimes you say it refers to the 10 commandments and sometimes you say it refers to the Book of the Law.

Adventtruth

1st March 2007, 01:54 PM

]Deut 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death blessing and cursing, therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. "

There is nothing here that tells us that God is making anyone do anything but places a decision before them. The whole Bible is full of this scenario. In Christ's time we find texts like this.

So you proof texted a passage out of its context to show that God give us free will? Jim, this passage is concerning the covanant of works that God made with Israel...blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. This was as a nation of people under a theocracy.

Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem Jerusalem thou that killest the propehts and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not . Clearly, here Christ is lamenting over the fact that the people of God made a decision to turn against God.

Kindly pardon me. Whats your point?

If I had no part what so ever in the plan of salvation then me and everyone else would be saved because according to the Bible in John God doesn't want to loose anyone. However, if that is the case then I, we are nothing more than automatons with no decisions to make. You are right that Christ has done it all but He still demands that I choose to believe in Him and live under His grace. Righteousness and obedience go hand in hand. One cannot exist without the other.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim...salvation is all of God. He has asked us to do nothing but trust and treasure Him. When this happens we are what is called Justified believers. Not becasue of anything we do or anything in us, but on account of everything in Jesus and everything He did. He imputes all of His righteousness to us. This is like a covering for us that our sin nature is not exposed. Also He gives us the down payment of the Spirit. This is our assurance that we are His. This impartation of the Holy Spirit helps believers in their walk but it does not save them. As justified sinners, we seek to glorify God by being loving people. When we love one another and God above all we fulfill everything in the law. So in your own words...this becomes our work...to let God dwell in us richly and to love one another. I can't make it any clearer.

AT:)

Eila

1st March 2007, 02:00 PM

Eila

1st March 2007, 02:23 PM

But I'm telling you, when the veil is removed you'll see that the grass is SO much greener. You don't even realize the burden you're carrying around right now because it seems normal. The bondage seems like freedom. I promise you though, it's still bondage.

That so very much relates my experience as well. I didn't know I was in bondage until I discovered freedom in Christ.

Eila

1st March 2007, 02:40 PM

I know you and all those like you are about putting down the Sabbath. This is the way you start out your web-sites is defaming and invalidating the Sabbath. The Sabbath is vital but it's only one of the ten. You yourself mentioned in your time of frustration having impure thoughts and coveting so I don't know why you make such a big deal out of the Sabbath now. You apparently have thrown out all of the ten so why not say it's ok to comit adultery, lie or steal? If you read your Bible it says if you break one you are guilty of them all.

I have thrown out the 10 commandments. They are the ministry of death. Now, I am led by the Spirit. I am not commandless. We see the law of Christ mentioned many times in the new covenant - love. We are to believe on Jesus and love one another. This is not the love of the old covenant. This love Jesus refers to is agape love - the God-kind of love. This love is only possible when we have the Spirit of God living in us. The Spirit of God does not lead anyone to steal or murder, but goes far beyond that. Yes, Christ is the end of the law, but I'm not out here commandless. I have the one true and living God residing in me. He leads me and will convict me of all sin. I am not bound to any external regulations, but to the inward witness.

If someone want to keep the Sabbath or a Monday or a Thursday I don't care. My problem lies in those who attach significance to the day in that it adds or subtracts to their right-standing or good works before God.

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 02:52 PM

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 03:04 PM

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 03:22 PM

A contract is an agreement. The piece of paper called a contract is the agreement written down. All the words written down were part of the agreement. This agreement was faulty because it was made between God and man. The new covenant is not faulty. It was made between God the Father and God the Son. God the Son made the covenant on behalf of man and the ONLY way we can access this covenant is by faith in Jesus. This is why our works are not related to salvation. It is His work that we have faith in. Our works are good, but they do nothing toward this new covenant of His blood.

This is not the way the Bible reads on this. Look at Heb 8:10 .

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord. "

This does NOT say that this covenant was between the Father and the Son but with the house of Israel . Please give me a text to support this conclusion.

Why do you need the Sabbath more today than you ever did?
The world keeps getting faster and faster and more busy as time goes on. We need a break every week to rest our bodies/spirits and commune with our creator on this special Holy time. Also as we get closer to the end of time this special day will come into prominence as a sign between God's people and Him. We need to be about displaying this special sign of God to the world.

In Matthew 5 it says " For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

According to this nothing in the law has passed away until all is fulfilled. This would mean all the things listed in the Law of Moses because Jesus goes on to describe things from the 10 commandments and the Book of the Law.

In most cases when we read of the law in the new testament we don't see an immediate destinction between the ceremonial law and the ten commandments. So we have to look at the context to see which law is being referred to. In Col 2:14 we know Paul is speaking of the law of Moses because in later verses it said the law was said to be against the people. This is clearly speaking of the ceremonial law of Moses. Also it speaks in Colosians of meat and drink offerings and sabbath days. The ten were never said to be against the people and the tablets were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

The laws Christ fulfilled at the cross are the laws that pertained to a shadow of Him and His sacrifice. We can find these laws in the beginning chapters of Leviticus where an animal was to be sacrificed for sin/s of the individuals and on the day of atonement for the entire nation. The entire sanctuary service was a shadow of Christ and His work here for the plan of salvation. When He died the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom signifying that the ceremonial system was fulfilled and finished.

Again, I challenge you to show me what part of the ten commandment law that was fulfilled at the cross. What happened at the cross to no longer make a relationship with God essential as the 1st four commandments guide us to? What part of what happened at the cross takes away our obligation to just and right treatment of our fellow man?

So you are saying that the law didn't change, just part of it is not longer applicable?

Jesus Himself confirmed that the ten were still in effect, only the ceremonial laws were fulfilled at the cross and nailed to it, Col 2:14

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 03:35 PM

So you proof texted a passage out of its context to show that God give us free will? Jim, this passage is concerning the covanant of works that God made with Israel...blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. This was as a nation of people under a theocracy.

AT, this is so typical when a text is provided to show the truth. You claim it's a proof text and out of context. Sure it was a nation living under a theocracy but it shows that God has always allowed us to have decisions with our lives and it began with Adam and Eve to now. You wanted texts, I can load you up with texts if that is what you want that shows God calling us to make a decision to follow Him and not ourselves or satan.

Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem Jerusalem thou that killest the propehts and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not . Clearly, here Christ is lamenting over the fact that the people of God made a decision to turn against God.

Kindly pardon me. Whats your point?

The words and ye would not shows that the people of Jerusalem choose not to follow God. Free will again is proven by this. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't be up there on that mountain crying over this city lamenting their decision to be evil instead of righteous.

Jim...salvation is all of God. He has asked us to do nothing but trust and treasure Him. When this happens we are what is called Justified believers. Not becasue of anything we do or anything in us, but on account of everything in Jesus and everything He did. He imputes all of His righteousness to us. This is like a covering for us that our sin nature is not exposed. Also He gives us the down payment of the Spirit. This is our assurance that we are His. This impartation of the Holy Spirit helps believers in their walk but it does not save them. As justified sinners, we seek to glorify God by being loving people. When we love one another and God above all we fulfill everything in the law. So in your own words...this becomes our work...to let God dwell in us richly and to love one another. I can't make it any clearer.

I have no problem with this, I endorse it whole-heartedly. I just don't think this wonderful miracle of God allows us to sin with impunity. You see the difference between us is slight but deadly. You say that once you are saved that sin is not imputed to you even if you comit sin or not. IOW, you stop at justification only. You discount sanctification and the works we must do under the influence of the Holy Spirit to be sanctified. My contention is that your version is not Biblical. Sin is comitted when we transgress God's Holy law of liberty. If we do this and fail to confess and repent of it we will be living unrighteously.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila

1st March 2007, 04:07 PM

This is not the way the Bible reads on this. Look at Heb 8:10 .

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord. "

This does NOT say that this covenant was between the Father and the Son but with the house of Israel . Please give me a text to support this conclusion.

What I am referring to is the Gospel itself. Here are some texts.

Col 1 "19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."

Matthew 26"28 For this is My blood of the new[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:27-29;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24077a)] covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Luke 22 "20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. "

2 Corinthians 5 "18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Ephesians 2 "14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."

The agreement for Jesus to lay down His life for us was not something we had a part in. It was something between God the Father and God the Son did. Jesus came and lived as a man so he could represent mankind. Only He fully met the righteous requirement of the law. Only He fulfilled the law. This is the whole reason why Jesus came - so He could reconcile us back to God. John 1 says "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26055e)] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26057f)] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

Here we see more of the covenant:

Galatians 3 "10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29107e)] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29108f)] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29109g)]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29110h)]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29113i)]who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29114j)] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise....26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The promise was made to Abraham's seed - Jesus. Through faith in Jesus we have access to this promise. It has nothing to do with our works. Our works cannot make the covenant made between God the Father and the Son of Man any less binding and they cannot make the covenant any more binding.

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 04:19 PM

Eila

1st March 2007, 04:24 PM

The world keeps getting faster and faster and more busy as time goes on. We need a break every week to rest our bodies/spirits and commune with our creator on this special Holy time.

1 Corinthians 6 says "17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"

When we join with Christ we become one with Him. If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and He is in you, why would one time be more holy than another? Wouldn't every moment be holy because He is holy and we are one with Him?

Also as we get closer to the end of time this special day will come into prominence as a sign between God's people and Him. We need to be about displaying this special sign of God to the world.

Where do you find Biblical support that says the Sabbath is the sign between God's people and Him and that we need to display the Sabbath to the world?

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 04:52 PM

The Bible makes it very clear that faith without works is dead in James 2. That is not me speaking but the Bible. If you feel that's hacking then so be it. The Bible also tells me that obedience and righteousness go together.
Jim!!!! Justification, sanctification, and glorification ARE NOT OUR WORKS! You listed 3 'elements' of salvation, NONE of which we DO.

Our works are filthy rags! So, since 'faith without works is dead', who's works are they? THINK! What do you think the Holy Spirit does IN us? Is it HIS fruit or ours. (Don't forget, our works are FILTHY RAGS!)

Absolutely, yet we still have a work to do. We must submit to the Holy Spirit and die daily. It takes an effort on our part to live for Christ because we are all still in a corruptible state.
Even more reason why we need God to live in us (Holy Spirit), which HE does. We have fallen flesh that has it's own free will, so we are not faithful. But God is, and he lives in us. That's the guarantee!

When we are glorified then we can say we are saved forever and we cannot sin anymore.
I can say I am saved right now, becuase of what Jesus has done for me, not because of me. He has already forgiven me, and given me his righteousness. I shared in his death and am guaranteed eternal life by his Spirit living in me. You think you can take that away???? I don't think so! NOTHING can separate me from his love!!!

BTW, your famous use of 1 John 3 also says that we DO NOT SIN ANYMORE, and that we CANNOT sin because God's seed is IN us. And it uses it in 'present tense'.

I know you and all those like you are about putting down the Sabbath.
I would NEVER put down the Sabbath.

This is the way you start out your web-sites is defaming and invalidating the Sabbath.
I don't have a web-site.

The Sabbath is vital but it's only one of the ten.
It was vital to Israel as the sign of the covenant that GOD made with them (which they broke and didn't keep). The 10 were the heart of the covenant.

You yourself mentioned in your time of frustration having impure thoughts and coveting so I don't know why you make such a big deal out of the Sabbath now.
Jim, can you tell me honestly that you have TOTAL victory over every thought that passed through your head? Would you claim you NEVER have impure thoughts of ANY kind?

I don't make a big deal out of the Sabbath! I don't claim that it's the Seal of God, that it is the 'dividing wall between the lost and the saved', that it's the 'final test of loyalty to God'. I won't condemn or judge those who worship God any time, and I won't condemn or judge those who try to keep the Jewish Sabbath holy. It doesn't matter!

But the point was this. Ultimately any discussion of the law will head toward the Sabbath for those who insist that we are still under the old covenant with its sign. What legalists have a hard time figuring out is why the Holy Spirit does NOT convict Christians that they need to observe the old sign.

You apparently have thrown out all of the ten so why not say it's ok to comit adultery, lie or steal? If you read your Bible it says if you break one you are guilty of them all.
I don't have the power or authority to do anything to the law. But Jesus said he came to fulfill it. He said he accomplished it for us and redeemed us from it.

And no, I don't think it's OK to commit adultery, lie or steal because the Holy Spirit leads me to NOT do those things.

I have seen Christ in the Sabbath as I contemplate it's significance in my life but I also lift Him up as the champion of all sinners to save a lost and dying world.
Jesus was not the champion of all sinners! He's GOD! And you're elevating the Sabbath while you're saying these things about Jesus.

The bondage Christ came to free us from is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. Grace cannot be about leading us back into sin again and that is what you are saying. Have you given up confessing and repenting of your sins yet? I asked adventtruth this on the other forum and he said he still confessed and repented but I wondered why at the time.
We are saved by grace. We were lost before we were even born to 'do' anything. We sin because we're sinners, not the other way around...and your narrow definition of sin leaves much to be desired. We can follow the letter without loving anybody (the Pharisees were the best law-keepers).

So, I would agree that grace does NOT lead us back to the condition we inherited even before exiting the womb (sin).

You ask if I've given up confessing and repenting of sin(s) yet...I'll stick with what Paul says here in Phil 3:

"We put no confidence in human effort. Instead, we boast about what Christ Jesus has done for us." v.3

"I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith." v.9

I know you have a difficult time believing that someone can trust Christ for their salvation, but there are no other options. My works get me nothing but filthy rags. I don't have any goodness. That's why I must boast about what Jesus has done FOR me. All glory goes to Jesus who alone is worthy and faithful to his promises.

Eila

1st March 2007, 05:37 PM

In most cases when we read of the law in the new testament we don't see an immediate destinction between the ceremonial law and the ten commandments. So we have to look at the context to see which law is being referred to. In Col 2:14 we know Paul is speaking of the law of Moses because in later verses it said the law was said to be against the people. This is clearly speaking of the ceremonial law of Moses.

The 10 commandments were against us.

2 Corinthians 3 says "4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28842a)] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

In verse 6-7 it talks about the 10 commandments. We know this because it mentions a law engraved on stone. This law is referred to as a ministry of death, a ministry of condemnation, something that kills.

The 10 commandments are referred to here as inferior to the new way. My understanding is that you believe the 10 commandments are the same, they were just put in a different place.

There remains a veil over our understanding when we focus on the Old Testament. The Old Testament pointed to Christ. In Him that veil is taken away. Now with the veil off we can behold Him and by beholding Him we become changed.

Also it speaks in Colosians of meat and drink offerings and sabbath days. The ten were never said to be against the people and the tablets were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

The Greek word for Sabbath found in Colossians is the exact same word used for the weekly Sabbath other places in the NT. The 10 commandments were also listed twice inside the Book of the Law. You are saying that all the ceremonies were fulfilled, yet you hold on to the weekly ceremony. I realize you adhere to many items in the Book of the Law (i.e. food laws, tithing). If those were outside of the ark of the covenant why do you believe those are binding?

The laws Christ fulfilled at the cross are the laws that pertained to a shadow of Him and His sacrifice. We can find these laws in the beginning chapters of Leviticus where an animal was to be sacrificed for sin/s of the individuals and on the day of atonement for the entire nation. The entire sanctuary service was a shadow of Christ and His work here for the plan of salvation. When He died the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom signifying that the ceremonial system was fulfilled and finished.

What you are saying means that you must believe all the other laws found in the book of the law are applicable to you today. Do you believe you should wear tassels on your clothing?

Again, I challenge you to show me what part of the ten commandment law that was fulfilled at the cross. What happened at the cross to no longer make a relationship with God essential as the 1st four commandments guide us to? What part of what happened at the cross takes away our obligation to just and right treatment of our fellow man?

What you are holding onto in the 10 commandments is inferior. The 10 commandments were not bad. 2 Corinthians 3 says that they had glory, but the glory of the ministry of righteousness far exceeds them.

As believers we are reconciled to God. The people in the old covenant did not have that. We are not slaves, but children now. We have been adopted and now cry "Abba" Galatians 4 says " But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29130a)] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29133b)] God through Christ."

It is not about keeping the laws to maintain a relationship anymore. His Spirit has come to live in us! We love Him because He first loved us. We now cry "Daddy". A relationship based on rule-keeping is shallow. We are in Him now and He is in us. We are one spirit with Him. A child who has felt the love of his father does not need a set of rules to maintain a relationship. This love we feel from God is far above and beyond all we can comprehend.

Regarding our fellow man. The law of love towards fellow man is emphasized all throughout the new covenant. For instance Galatians 6 " 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. "

and 1 John 3 "23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20john%203;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30597e)] commandment."

Jesus spoke quite a bit about the glory of the law of love in the new covenant. I think he showed very well how the law of love far exceeds the letter of the law.

Jesus Himself confirmed that the ten were still in effect, only the ceremonial laws were fulfilled at the cross and nailed to it, Col 2:14

I'm not exactly sure what texts you are referring to where Jesus said the 10 commandments were still in effect. The whole law was in effect with Jesus. Jesus commanded the people to follow the law as the teachers of the law told them to. Matthew 23 " “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-23916a)]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do."

Jimlarmore

1st March 2007, 05:54 PM

1 Corinthians 6 says "17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"

When we join with Christ we become one with Him. If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and He is in you, why would one time be more holy than another? Wouldn't every moment be holy because He is holy and we are one with Him?

Absolutely, however, the Bible tells me in Ex 20:8-11 that we should labor six days and do all our work/labor but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord my God. Every day is not Holy. Only the 7th day Sabbath is a Holy Day day set aside for Holy use.

Where do you find Biblical support that says the Sabbath is the sign between God's people and Him and that we need to display the Sabbath to the world?

Ezek 20:12 " Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths to be a sign between me and them that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them."

God's people have always been called His peculiar people because they were different than the rest of the people around them. Sabbatarians are labeled as peculiar in this way. God intended for the nation of Israel to evangelize the world showing the way from paganistic apostacy.

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 05:56 PM

The Greek word for Sabbath found in Colossians is the exact same word used for the weekly Sabbath other places in the NT. The 10 commandments were also listed twice inside the Book of the Law. You are saying that all the ceremonies were fulfilled, yet you hold on to the weekly ceremony. I realize you adhere to many items in the Book of the Law (i.e. food laws, tithing). If those were outside of the ark of the covenant why do you believe those are binding?
I wanted to highlight the fact that the 10 commandments were also listed in the book of the law too. So were the two greatest commandments!

And as far as food laws and tithing goes, it's a pick and choose method of selection. Different law-focussed churches select different things (although we all know why they would require tithing$$$). They all try to divide the law along lines that fit their fancy (or their prophet!).

freeindeed2

1st March 2007, 06:10 PM

Absolutely, however, the Bible tells me in Ex 20:8-11 that we should labor six days and do all our work/labor but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord my God. Every day is not Holy. Only the 7th day Sabbath is a Holy Day day set aside for Holy use.

Ezek 20:12 " Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths to be a sign between me and them that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them."
Both of these references are from people who were living under that covenant with the Sabbath as its sign. That doesn't make the Sabbath a requirement for Christians living after the cross.

God's people have always been called His peculiar people because they were different than the rest of the people around them. Sabbatarians are labeled as peculiar in this way. God intended for the nation of Israel to evangelize the world showing the way from paganistic apostacy.
This sounds like a pride thing.

Christians are to preach the Good News about Jesus Christ to the world. The Good News is that he saves sinners...and we're all sinners.

Eila

1st March 2007, 06:25 PM

The Bible says that the plan of salvation was laid out before the foundation of the world. This plan may indeed be considered a covenant between God the Father and God the Son but the covenant spoken of in Hebrews and all the ones spoken of concerning the law were between God and His people.

Yes, the law was between Israel and God. The agreement is available to us, but only through Jesus.

Hebrews 6 also speaks to the covenant between God the Father and God the Son.

"13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30053d)] 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30057e)] have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 10 says
"11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&version=50#fen-NKJV-30144c)] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&version=50#fen-NKJV-30145d)] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

We enter into the covenant of His blood by faith and we stay in the covenant of His blood by faith.

Notice verse 14 - He as perfected forever those who are being sanctified. He has made us perfect through the blood of the Lamb. Sanctification is us working out/exercising this right-standing He has already given us.

The fact that the ten are now part of our hearts and minds as it says in Heb 8 and 10 surely means the law is still in effect. Besides as I have said so many times before , Grace is only possible if the law still exists and is in effect. Jesus' Grace saves us from sin. What is sin? Transgression of the law 1 John 3:4.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I think it is an assumption to say that the law in Hebrews 8 and 10 is talking about the 10 commandments.

2 Corinthians 3 says "2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203%20;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28842a)] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious."

The law on our hearts is not the 10 commandments that just moved from the ark of the covenant to our heart. The ministry of death was glorious, but the ministry of the Spirit far exceeds it.

Galatians 4 "16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

The writing the law on our hearts is not making us keep the spirit of the law or making us be able to keep the law, but is it actually God dwelling in us and leading us. He changes us as we behold Him. He convicts us of sin. To hold up the inferior 10 commandments diminishes what Christ in us is all about.

Sin was around before the law existed. Romans 5 says "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Sin is defined as the transgression of the law and as wrongdoing in 1 John. The question is what is the definition of law. I am assuming you are saying it is the 10 commandments. In 1 John it says "18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know[d (http://www.bib