deliverance

[TamaraLynne]

Was wondering about the casting out of demons.........

Where does orthodoxy stand on this issue?

I have been in the deliverance section.........and to be quite honest........I feel alot of checks within my spirit on some things...............some have told me I should not lean on my own understanding but the Holy Spirit should be my guide......and I beleive the Holy Spirit is guiding me and the same people who preach things that give me pause are the ones telling me I don't have the Holy Spirit because I don't automatically jump in with their beleifs......How do we test the spirits?

I know our focus should be Christ abiding in us and us in him......and I cannot ignore that Jesus cast out demons....but I need understanding........and some things I'm hearing about demons are so new. I would like to know the understanding in this area that has been around for awhile.:prayer:

Thank you

Love
Tam

[MariaRegina]

Tam,

This is the problem with modern Christianity.

Christians are so quick to judge other Christians as not being Christians just because they don't jump when told to do so. I think many of us have been placed on mega guilt trips and this is true even at CF.

Telling a person that they are not a Christian or that the Holy Spirit is not in them is a way of controlling and lording it over them. When Christians fall into that type of judgmental behavior, they are not acting in a very christian manner. We are called to love and to pray for one another, and not to judge others.

Christ told us not to judge. He is the judge.

We in Holy Orthodoxy believe that we have the fullness of the Holy Spirit; however, the claim of fullness does not exclude the Holy Spirit from operating in others. Otherwise, the movement of Father John Fenton into Orthodoxy would be denied as an operation of the Holy Spirit. Your coming into TAW is also a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Our belief that we possess the fullness of the Holy Spirit means that through our Holy Sacraments, we are assured through the words of Christ and His Holy Church that the Holy Spirit is operating in us because Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church on earth until He comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

And when you realize that the term "living" refers to both those alive in Christ on earth and in heaven, then that takes on a whole new meaning. Those who have fallen asleep in Christ are not dead but are alive in Christ.

However, those people who are living in sin are even dead while "alive" on this earth, so in essence, they are walking dead men.

Anyway, we can discern whether the Spirit of God is alive in another person by their good fruits. Do they radiate the love of God in the way they speak and act?

In your case, I would say that yes, God is acting in you and through you, otherwise, you would not be here at CF and in TAW sharing your love of God with us.

[Knowledge3]

I'm not yet a developed teacher but I try and refrain from teaching in TAW as a Cathechumen.

Here is my personal theology in a nutshell;

Jesus Christ triumphed over death and sin by the Cross, His personal victory for us means a liberation (deliverance) from sin and death.

:priest:

[TamaraLynne]

Tam,

This is the problem with modern Christianity.

Christians are so quick to judge other Christians as not being Christians just because they don't jump when told to do so. I think many of us have been placed on mega guilt trips and this is true even at CF.

Telling a person that they are not a Christian or that the Holy Spirit is not in them is a way of controlling and lording it over them. When Christians fall into that type of judgmental behavior, they are not acting in a very christian manner. We are called to love and to pray for one another, and not to judge others.

Christ told us not to judge. He is the judge.

We in Holy Orthodoxy believe that we have the fullness of the Holy Spirit; however, the claim of fullness does not exclude the Holy Spirit from operating in others. Otherwise, the movement of Father John Fenton into Orthodoxy would be denied as an operation of the Holy Spirit. Your coming into TAW is also a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Our belief that we possess the fullness of the Holy Spirit means that through our Holy Sacraments, we are assured through the words of Christ and His Holy Church that the Holy Spirit is operating in us because Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church on earth until He comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

And when you realize that the term "living" refers to both those alive in Christ on earth and in heaven, then that takes on a whole new meaning. Those who have fallen asleep in Christ are not dead but are alive in Christ.

However, those people who are living in sin are even dead while "alive" on this earth, so in essence, they are walking dead men.

Anyway, we can discern whether the Spirit of God is alive in another person by their good fruits. Do they radiate the love of God in the way they speak and act?

In your case, I would say that yes, God is acting in you and through you, otherwise, you would not be here at CF and in TAW sharing your love of God with us.
Thank you


(((aria)))..............:)

[TamaraLynne]

Thank you


(((aria)))..............:)
that was a hug:)

[TamaraLynne]

I'm not yet a developed teacher but I try and refrain from teaching in TAW as a Cathechumen.

Here is my personal theology in a nutshell;

Jesus Christ triumphed over death and sin by the Cross, His personal victory for us means a liberation (deliverance) from sin and death.

:priest:
Amen

[TamaraLynne]

But I would like to know more about the nutshell............:)....to.

[TamaraLynne]

I have been thinking alot about armor.....and faith.......and being protected by God...............also have thought about Christ in us and us in him........(which makes me think of armor)

I understand their are still seducing spirits(Devils?)on the earth ......even Paul was casting devils away from othes............I think by sending them pieces of his robe? Gods shadow in psalms.......about being under his wings........powerful!

I suppose I want others to have an increase in faith.......and not focus so much on the evil(devils)........because I have seen how others that are not grounded..become afraid. I almost get the feeling that demons are jumping around in glee because so much focus is on them....and when this happens(others seeing demons everywhere) then many try to fight them in the spirit of fear.

I think it is just as wrong to ignore the fact that there aren't demons.........because they can hide and deceive.

But I think a strong focus on God and how he can be our protector.........and how he gives us the armor..so that demons fall to the left and to the right.Not by our might but by the might of God. By the trust and faith that grows within us and around us.

I feel tired in my quest for understanding..........

Love
Tam

[TamaraLynne]

which makes me think I am going against a current. Which maybe I am......because of my thoughts.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The Church does believe in the existence of demons. When a person is ready to be recieved into the Church through baptism and/or chrismation, the priest says prayers of exorcism over the person(s) about to be received by the Church. This doesn't mean that the Church assumes everyone outside the Church is possessed by demons, but as far as I know, it's done simply because of the possibility that someone could be afflicted by demons. The catechumen being brought into the Church is told to symbolically spit on the devil by facing West (or away from the altar) and spitting. This symbolizes the rejection of Satan and his lies.

Now, aside from the fact that we believe demons exist and the Church does have prayers of exorcism (which are only said by the priest), this does NOT mean that we as Christian lay people run around rebuking demons or trying to cast out demons from other people, etc. This is not our job. Our job is to take up our crosses and follow Christ, making it our daily endeavor to become more and more like Him (we do not believe salvation is an instant thing that happens when we say a prayer, for us it is a life-long journey of obedience and trust in God, and struggling against the passions of the flesh). We are to live lives that involve lots of prayer, fasting, and partaking of the Sacraments, and it is in this way that we defeat evil in our own lives. If someone feels there is something demonic going on in their life, they need to go post haste to their priest for help or advice.

I hope this has helped you. Feel free to ask for clarification as needed. I'm not always the best at explaining things.:)

[Orthocat]

Regardless of what the world would teach, and even some religions, there are spiritual battles going on around us at all times.

Orthodoxy does have a history of casting out demons (I believe youtube even has some footage) but this is not something a lay person need be involved in. We have our own battles within us, within our hearts where evil attempts to settle, in the form of thoughts and passions that are contrary to God.

Paul's robe? This would be considered a relic in Orthodoxy. We do believe that holiness resides in the relics (body/clothing/items) belonging to a saint, just as holiness would reside in holy water or oil. This goes back to the beginning of Christianity.
(By the same token, there are places and things of evil).

Demons can deceive us in many ways, especially when it comes to matters of faith. They can pretend to be angels of light, speaking some truth inside the lies, just enough to deceive. That is why it is important to have a spiritual teacher to turn to.

A focus on God is good. Stay in prayer constantly in everything, so that when any of the senses respond to external issues, your first response is Godly prayer and then He will guard your thoughts and heart.

[Knowledge3]

But I would like to know more about the nutshell............:)....to.

I have several sources that say Orthodox Christianity is the authentic,traditional, and true faith. :priest:

[ma2000]

There are devils among us, Tamara. Their greatest trick is to make us believe they don't exist.
Angels are also among us.
But you should focus on God and, in time, you'll know more.

About your dreams.. they could be from God or they could be from the devil ... or they are just normal dreams. Unless you talk to a priest, I think you shouldn't think about them so much.


Btw, I LOVE the pic with your girls!

[TamaraLynne]

Okay...............I just about fell out of my seat. I am floored! So many things I have been shown by the Holy Spirit you all just talked about. I have been in churches all my life that I have not seen one demon cast away. Then I get on CF and I hear so many things that are going on in the churches.
I have asked why demons are not just cast away first.And in your church that is exactly how it is done......

I was attracted to this church because of the things eoe has talked about...........the things he said lined up with the things I have been having thoughts of. And now coming here I see truth in so many........

I will come here often...........
I have been very hurt and lost within the churches so please bear with me if I just keep listening....

Love
Tam

[TamaraLynne]

Okay...............I just about fell out of my seat. I am floored! So many things I have been shown by the Holy Spirit you all just talked about. I have been in churches all my life that I have not seen one demon cast away. Then I get on CF and I hear so many things that are going on in the churches.
I have asked why demons are not just cast away first.And in your church that is exactly how it is done......

I was attracted to this church because of the things eoe has talked about...........the things he said lined up with the things I have been having thoughts of. And now coming here I see truth in so many........

I will come here often...........
I have been very hurt and lost within the churches so please bear with me if I just keep listening....

Love
Tam
things eoe said that lined up with the bible.......is what I meant......at least in how I was seeing scripture.

Oh my.....please forgive me in how I word some of my thoughts....

[Orthocat]

Okay...............I just about fell out of my seat. I am floored! So many things I have been shown by the Holy Spirit you all just talked about. I have been in churches all my life that I have not seen one demon cast away. Then I get on CF and I hear so many things that are going on in the churches.
I have asked why demons are not just cast away first.And in your church that is exactly how it is done......

I was attracted to this church because of the things eoe has talked about...........the things he said lined up with the things I have been having thoughts of. And now coming here I see truth in so many........

I will come here often...........
I have been very hurt and lost within the churches so please bear with me if I just keep listening....

Love
Tam

Yes, eoe is one of our messengers ;) He does a great work.

Come as much as you like - you are always welcome. If you seek it you will find the Truth. :)

[TamaraLynne]

There are devils among us, Tamara. Their greatest trick is to make us believe they don't exist.
Angels are also among us.
But you should focus on God and, in time, you'll know more.

About your dreams.. they could be from God or they could be from the devil ... or they are just normal dreams. Unless you talk to a priest, I think you shouldn't think about them so much.


Btw, I LOVE the pic with your girls!
Thank you:)

The reason I pay attention to my dreams is that God has been talking to me through my dreams........it always leads me to the bible. And I know God is the giver of dreams and the interpretor.The churches don't pay attention to dreams at all...........even God given dreams. you are right about some dreams.........It is good to know that someone in the orthodox church actually knows some dreams can be from God.Most of my dreams are about my walk with God....about what he wants me to know about his word.Things he wants me to seek in his word.

Someday I will get all the kids together for a family photo.............two are already grown.:)

Love
Tam

[MariaRegina]

Before I came into Orthodoxy, God gifted me with dreams, but as soon as I had a spiritual father, those dreams disappeared.

My dreams would be a repeated trip to a monastery where I would listen to ancient chants and go to confession and actually learn to be a better Christian. When I entered Orthodoxy, I realized that the monastery was my very church, the service I attended was Vespers, and that the confessor was my spiritual father. He was guiding me into Orthodoxy before I was even in the Church, and before I even had a chance to meet him in person.

Some of the Alaskan Native Americans were visited by holy monks who were granted the gift of bilocation (being in two places at the same time), so that they could instruct these people and prepare them for Baptism when the missionaries were finally able to come to Alaska. These holy monks never left their monastery but by their prayers, God allowed them to evangelize through the Holy Spirit. Great is our God.

Through the prayers of the Holy Fathers, O Christ Our God, have mercy on us and save us.

[TamaraLynne]

Before I came into Orthodoxy, God gifted me with dreams, but as soon as I had a spiritual father, those dreams disappeared.

My dreams would be a repeated trip to a monastery where I would listen to ancient chants and go to confession and actually learn to be a better Christian. When I entered Orthodoxy, I realized that the monastery was my very church, the service I attended was Vespers, and that the confessor was my spiritual father. He was guiding me into Orthodoxy before I was even in the Church, and before I even had a chance to meet him in person.

Some of the Alaskan Native Americans were visited by holy monks who were granted the gift of bilocation (being in two places at the same time), so that they could instruct these people and prepare them for Baptism when the missionaries were finally able to come to Alaska. These holy monks never left their monastery but by their prayers, God allowed them to evangelize through the Holy Spirit. Great is our God.

Through the prayers of the Holy Fathers, O Christ Our God, have mercy on us and save us.
My oldest daughter has had dreams about churches.....:)

One of my dreams the angels were singing everywhere around me and one angel picked me up and showed me a highway.

And I just get the feeling that even though we can't hear the angels...........they are singing all around us.......:)

[Orthocat]

ok, I'll confess...

My trip to Orthodoxy was confirmed by a dream...kinda.

While still at the other church, I had started studying Orthodoxy and was very interested.
One Friday night, at 2:30 am, I awoke with the Jesus prayer going over and over through my head.
I sat straight up and quieted myself to listen, if you know what I mean. Then "Kyrie Elaison" began to go through my mind. I sat there about 30 minutes not moving, just listening. I'm not even sure I was breathing. Then my wife rolled over and broke my... whatever.

I went to my first Orthodox church that Sunday and have not had a dream like that since.

"As the Prodigal Son I come to Thee, merciful Lord. I have wasted my whole life in a foreign land; I have scattered the wealth which Thou gavest me, O Father. Receive me in repentance, O God, and have mercy upon me."

[Breaking Babylon]

eoe was the first person I talked to about Orthodoxy. Now I'm a catechumen and my baptism date is set for Holy Saturday. I'll second the statement that he does a great work.

Glory to God. Thank you for being here, Tam.

[Rowan]

I had one just last night. I don't remember much, but apparently I was apart of a band of Orthodox Christians being oppressed by the government, so we were hiding (underground, maybe). I know we were Orthodox because I recognized the icons :)

My dream ended in a corporate prayer of the Lord's Prayer.

Just felt like sharing...

[MariaRegina]

Why did God grant me those dreams (and yes, my spiritual father thought that they were 'real')?

It took two priests to bring me into Orthodoxy and those dreams were vital to not only my conversion but also my husband who asked me to tell him about my dreams. I would wake up while singing church hymns in my sleep.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I will come here often...........
I have been very hurt and lost within the churches so please bear with me if I just keep listening....

Love
Tam

Lots of us here have been in your situation. I went through a few churches searching for one which seemed to have the "truth"; I thought I found it in an Evangelical Free church, but they started preaching strange doctrines, and my husband felt ostracized by the preacher when he confronted him about them. (As it turns out, those strange doctrines came from conservative Calvinism. We didn't know that at the time, just that they were horribly wrong.) I became Presbyterian (the not-Calvinist branch) and was happy there, especially as I started becoming more liberal. Then I discovered Eastern Orthodoxy and everything changed. Incidentally, this was through an Orthodox convert who posted on a couple of the same forums I did--not eoe, but somebody like him. ;) I did some research online, then joined this forum. Nothing seemed "correct" anymore unless it lined up with Orthodox teachings. After a year of investigation, I started the process of converting ("catechumenate").

[Knowledge3]

Lots of us here have been in your situation. I went through a few churches searching for one which seemed to have the "truth"; I thought I found it in an Evangelical Free church, but they started preaching strange doctrines, and my husband felt ostracized by the preacher when he confronted him about them. (As it turns out, those strange doctrines came from conservative Calvinism. We didn't know that at the time, just that they were horribly wrong.) I became Presbyterian (the not-Calvinist branch) and was happy there, especially as I started becoming more liberal. Then I discovered Eastern Orthodoxy and everything changed. Incidentally, this was through an Orthodox convert who posted on a couple of the same forums I did--not eoe, but somebody like him. ;) I did some research online, then joined this forum. Nothing seemed "correct" anymore unless it lined up with Orthodox teachings. After a year of investigation, I started the process of converting ("catechumenate").

Hebrews 13:9 :priest: