Abortion and Same-Sex Marriage

[SaintGeorge]

What is the Eastern Orthodox stance on these issues?

[kamikat]

SG, I think you know the answers to those questions. Abortion is considered murder and same sex attraction is a passion to be overcome, not indulged. I have yet to hear of any Orthodox source supporting same sex marriage.

[hungrytiger]

What is the Eastern Orthodox stance on these issues?

Have you read the From the Mods at TAW: Required Reading (http://www.christianforums.com/t2106555-from-the-mods-at-taw-required-reading.html) thread? Does it answer your question?

[SaintGeorge]

Wow, TAW sure has grown, 71 people, and very prompt replies. God bless you all.

[OnTheWay]

Abortion is murder. The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.

[Orthocat]

No.

[JustinHesychast]

The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.

Holy bleep....

That's pretty bad/sad...

[Orthocat]

Holy bleep....

That's pretty bad/sad...



No, that's Orthodoxy. We are not Episcopal.

[JustinHesychast]

I find such drastic actions a bit pathetic and all too harsh in a uniting of love. Please don't take that the wrong way or in any way insulting to the church I am seeking to become a part of. Just expressing my opinion, which is surely wrong.

[Matrona]

Abortion is murder. The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.

Actually, I think they were planning on demolishing the chapel anyway.

[choirfiend]

God is Love, but love is not God.
Love is dying for your enemy. Let us all look for evidence of that kind of love in our lives. It's not present in mine, that's for sure.

[OnTheWay]

Actually, I think they were planning on demolishing the chapel anyway.

Certainly wouldn't explain the rather serious action of defrocking the priest, and there was nothing to suggest that the chapel was scheduled to be demolished. While I'm sure the His Holiness' actions offend every ounce of screaming college liberal what was done was a grave offense and some rather drastic actions taken. I honestly sleep soundly at night knowing that people like Patriarch Alexei II are leading the Church and won't allow the liberal dissent element to turn it into an Anglican like circus side show.

[Orthosdoxa]

I'm just confused why you asked this Esran... I KNOW you already knew the answers...

LK

[Akathist]

Abortion is murder. The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.

I read about that as well. Seems that I remember that the altar itself was burned as well. That was the part that really struck me at the time.

to the OP:

My understanding is that Orthodox Christian's are not to have an abortion or to engage in same sex "marital relations" or romantic relationships with the same gender.

However, I also believe that we are not to judge other's. So, if talking to someone who was not Eastern Orthodox and who was engaging in these activities, I personally would work very hard to not be judgemental and would only express my opinion on such matters if they asked me what my opinion was.

That said, I would never attend a same sex marriage service, nor would I ever support abortion in any fashion, including going for nonabortion treatment to Planned Parenthood.

[Photios]

The thing with demolishing the church for a same sex marriage was meant to send a statement world wide, in which it succeded. There was a lot of talk at the time about allowing same sex marriages and pushing for such by many people, though not so much within the EOC. Patriarch Alexei sent an extremely clear message on the EO stance on the subject. It's not an issue that's likely to come up in Orthodox circles for a while, due in part to such a message.

[EmperorConstantine]

What is the Eastern Orthodox stance on these issues?
Not Orthodox. Either of them.

[Protoevangel]

I find such drastic actions a bit pathetic and all too harsh in a uniting of love. Please don't take that the wrong way or in any way insulting to the church I am seeking to become a part of. Just expressing my opinion, which is surely wrong.
I actually find it quite comforting.

[Breaking Babylon]

I'd have to agree. The last thing the Church needs is a huge spineless spirit of ecumenism and pats on the back where a kick in the pants is needed for the sake of spiritual growth and edification.

But I'm a catechumen and my opinions aren't significant.

[ma2000]

Abortion is murder. The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.
I think they considered the church to be desecrated and had to rebuild it and bless it again to consecrate it.

[repentant]

Abortion is murder. The Orthodox Church is opposed to same sex marriage quite radically. I read an article some years ago about a Russian Orthodox Church that performed a homosexual marriage, Patriarch Alexei II defrocked the priest, declared the Church defiled, and it was bull dozed and rebuilt. So I would say the Church's position on homosexual marriage is pretty well defined in the negative.

I think the proclamation that the Church was defiled, and had it bulldozed and rebuilt...was going a little to far.

[rusmeister]

I'd want to see solid evidence of this story before believing it. I did some Google searching and couldn't come up with any decent confirmation.

[Matrona]

Certainly wouldn't explain the rather serious action of defrocking the priest...

I'm not saying it did, I'm just saying that the account you gave is exaggerated.

They may have informally stated that the chapel had been defiled, but there was no "official declaration" as such. They had scheduled the chapel for demolition but moved it up after the gay marriage happened there, I guess so that its demolition would be sure to make the news and underscore Orthodoxy's rejection of same-sex marriage. (They also torched the rubble.) Yes, the priest was defrocked, deflocked, and had his parking space reassigned, as they said on the Onion Dome at the time.

But the facts in this case can be easily misinterpreted; a lot of people read that and thought that we thought gay people are somehow inherently evil or "unclean," which is just ridiculous. Gay people are made in the image of God just like everyone else. Tearing the church down was a spectacular way to pronounce our rejection of gay marrriage, but failed to make it clear that we don't hate gay people (for being gay or any other reason), we just believe that attempting to perform a marriage between homosexuals would be an abuse of the sacrament.

, and there was nothing to suggest that the chapel was scheduled to be demolished. While I'm sure the His Holiness' actions offend every ounce of screaming college liberal what was done was a grave offense and some rather drastic actions taken. I honestly sleep soundly at night knowing that people like Patriarch Alexei II are leading the Church and won't allow the liberal dissent element to turn it into an Anglican like circus side show.

Well, I hope you're not calling me a screaming college liberal. :P I'm just repeating what I read on the news at the time it happened.

[ufonium2]

Well, I hope you're not calling me a screaming college liberal.

That's redundant; (almost) everyone is liberal in college. Even your campus College Republicans are liberal now, relative to the Super Republicans they will become in a few years :)

[OnTheWay]

I'm not saying it did, I'm just saying that the account you gave is exaggerated.

What a complete and total shock, everyone else that recalls the story seems to remember it one way and you another. And yet here we are with you declaring your opinions to be facts and yet have provided nothing to support it. The Washington Times story is conflicted. Obviously there is more than enough room to think the Church was razed for having been defiled. So yet again, you've projected your interpretation of events as unquestioned fact. http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm



But the facts in this case can be easily misinterpreted; a lot of people read that and thought that we thought gay people are somehow inherently evil or "unclean," which is just ridiculous. Gay people are made in the image of God just like everyone else. Tearing the church down was a spectacular way to pronounce our rejection of gay marrriage, but failed to make it clear that we don't hate gay people (for being gay or any other reason), we just believe that attempting to perform a marriage between homosexuals would be an abuse of the sacrament.

Homosexual behavior is sinful, it's unclearn, and it's evil. You're either going to have to learn to deal with it, or find a church that suits your position. Now, I'm glad that you are so holy that even the Patriarch of Russia must answer for his actions to you. I'm not, and will trust that the good Bishop knows what he's doing. It's not an "abuse" of a sacrament, a fourth wedding is an abuse of the sacrament. This is an evil and vile thing that is a mockery and blasphemy against a sacrament. We both know where you're going with these views, and I can assure you the Orthodox Church isn't going there.



Well, I hope you're not calling me a screaming college liberal. :P I'm just repeating what I read on the news at the time it happened.

You are, on every subject that pops up on TAW. Don't see the point in denying it, usually you people wear the title like a badge of honor. No, you're repeating the interpratation of events that you like best.

[OnTheWay]

I'd want to see solid evidence of this story before believing it. I did some Google searching and couldn't come up with any decent confirmation.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm

It was the top result on the google serach.

[Knowledge3]

What is the Eastern Orthodox stance on these issues?

Male and female were created by God for sacred and holy matrimony of Christian marriage.

The homosexual orientation is an unnatural disorder of God's creation. (a weird scientific mystery) :confused:

And I'm originally pro-life,the human conception of life is sacred.

[Orthocat]

And I'm originally pro-life,the human conception of life is sacred.

Very good. :)

We all start out in this world pro-life don't we???

[Eusebios]

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm

It was the top result on the google serach.
Your link is non-functional.

[ma2000]

Your link is non-functional.
It is. I've opened it.

[Khaleas]

Your link is non-functional.
Works fine for me...


Russian chapel razed after gay 'marriage'
http://images.washtimes.com/images/clear.gif
http://images.washtimes.com/images/twt-grey2.gif
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
MOSCOW — The Russian Orthodox Church has demolished a chapel where a priest conducted a "marriage" ceremony between two men.
The Chapel of the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God was torn down apparently after local churchmen decided it had been defiled.
The "marriage" of Denis Gogolyev and Mikhail Morozev in Nizhny Novgorod scandalized the Orthodox Church and created outrage among ordinary Russians.
The priest, the Rev. Vladimir Enert, was defrocked after the men said they paid him a $450 bribe to ignore a ban of same-sex "marriages."
A spokesman for the Orthodox Church said the chapel had to go, as it had been desecrated. Some local officials said it was due for demolition to make way for a new, larger church, though this would not open until 2005.
A spokesman for the Nizhny Novgorod Patriarchate told the Daily Telegraph, "The chapel was dismantled because it is no longer needed."
But he conceded that the homosexual "marriage" ceremony may have "sped up the process."

[Eusebios]

I went back and used the original link and got the story.
I am however deeply disappointed by the direction this thread has taken. Brothers and sisters, this is Great Lent, the season of repentance. Let us focus our attention, both joint and several on Christ, and His call to repentance, remembering the prayer of St. Ephraim.
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

[Akathist]

.......The Washington Times story is conflicted. Obviously there is more than enough room to think the Church was razed for having been defiled.....
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm


Other supporting links that the church was destroyed: http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/0309a.html

http://www.globalgayz.com/russia-news00-03.html#article10

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/5178

I remember reading somewhere about the altar being destroyed and having a discussion with my Priest about it at the time I read this all. I can not find the article that specifically said the altar was burnt and don't feel the need to defend my memory to you Matrona.

I have never knowingly said a falsehood on TAW and Matrona, I resent the implication that I have.

The Orthodox Church condemns the acting out of homosexual passions. Those who have these passions are sinners just as I am a sinner. They are no worse the me, and I am probably actually more of a sinner then most if not all of them. The same is true for people who molest children. The act is condemned by the church. The people are loved. I am just as great a sinner as any of these examples.

[Akathist]

OTW's Washington Time's link again: http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm

[Knowledge3]

Very good. :)

We all start out in this world pro-life don't we???

Yes we do.

So much for the catholic Augustinian doctrine of original sin. ;)

[Matrona]

That's redundant; (almost) everyone is liberal in college. Even your campus College Republicans are liberal now, relative to the Super Republicans they will become in a few years :)

Not me, I'm downright draconian compared to a lot of the liberal whackjobs. You should hear me pontificate against so-called "inclusive language" (even though my fingers haven't caught up with my brain and I still write "his/her" sometimes). Even the College Republicans use that. :D

[Xpycoctomos]

Actually, I think they were planning on demolishing the chapel anyway.
I have to think taht this is why they did it. I would agree that it is exaggerated at best to demolish a temple of God simply because something wrong went on there.

I mean, if a Satanist came in and a priest unknowingly (or knowingly) gave him or her the Eucharist would we bulldoze that Church for that reason? While it is important that the Church stand against Homosexual life styles and societal normalization of this (through gay marriage), sometimes I think we have been trained, in our reactionism, to place homosexuality on a pedastal of devasting sins. Quite frankly I can think of some even more destructive. But I think this is why this idea that the Church was bulldozed BECAUSE of that (as if it were eternally filthy to the point that even the Grace of God could do nothing to purify it) took off and was so willingly believed. If my Patriarch did that PURELY for that reason, I would have to say that that is not only silly but irresponsible for so many reasons. But, as Matrona said, I think there are other, real reasons behind the demolition.

john

[Matrona]

Other supporting links that the church was destroyed: http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/0309a.html

http://www.globalgayz.com/russia-news00-03.html#article10

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/5178


Um, I never said the chapel wasn't destroyed. I took issue with a few elements of OTW's account of the chapel's destruction. I didn't say that anyone themselves had exaggerated it, just that it seemed to me that some of the details had been exaggerated a bit(intentionally leaving out the agent of the action "exaggerated" in the sentence).

FTR, here's a nice link that supports what I said (that the chapel was scheduled to be demolished anyway): http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/09/1065601951932.html

"The chapel was dismantled because it is no longer needed." But he admitted that the "marriage" may have "sped up the process".

I remember reading somewhere about the altar being destroyed and having a discussion with my Priest about it at the time I read this all. I can not find the article that specifically said the altar was burnt and don't feel the need to defend my memory to you Matrona.

I have never knowingly said a falsehood on TAW and Matrona, I resent the implication that I have.

I didn't say you did, and I'm frankly bewildered as to how you could have gotten that impression.

Good gravy, sometimes I wish everyone in TAW could follow me around for a day and see the kinds of things I do and say in my daily life, things that would radically alter some of these impressions some of you have of me. "Playing devil's advocate" doesn't make me a Satanist.

The Orthodox Church condemns the acting out of homosexual passions. Those who have these passions are sinners just as I am a sinner. They are no worse the me, and I am probably actually more of a sinner then most if not all of them. The same is true for people who molest children. The act is condemned by the church. The people are loved. I am just as great a sinner as any of these examples.

Well, that's very nice, but since we all agree that same-sex marriage is wrong, this is preaching to the choir a little bit.

[Xpycoctomos]

I read the London Telegraph article. I now consider it totally possible that Patriarch Alexii II had it demolished becuase of the illicit marriage. However, it says "spokesmen for the Church" who are...? and those that decided to raze the Church were local Churchmen... that says nothing.

Either way, if it was purely for this reason, I don't care who decided this needed to be done. I think the decision is a bit rash. Why does THIS desecrate a Church beyond repair? Is the Eucharist so weak? If it was for a simple statement.. that's a very expensive statement for a generally impoverished country and Church.

[Xpycoctomos]

What is the Eastern Orthodox stance on these issues?
Wait, this is Esran? Glad to see you found a home... but what a wierd thread for you to start.

[Xpycoctomos]

thanks for the articles Khaleas and Matrona.

[Matrona]

I have to think taht this is why they did it. I would agree that it is exaggerated at best to demolish a temple of God simply because something wrong went on there.

I mean, if a Satanist came in and a priest unknowingly (or knowingly) gave him or her the Eucharist would we bulldoze that Church for that reason? While it is important that the Church stand against Homosexual life styles and societal normalization of this (through gay marriage), sometimes I think we have been trained, in our reactionism, to place homosexuality on a pedastal of devasting sins. Quite frankly I can think of some even more destructive.

:thumbsup: (John comes to my rescue again!)

I think people are willing to make that jump in their minds between the truth (the chapel's demolition occured much sooner than planned because of the ceremony) and the exaggeration (they demolished it simply because of the ceremony itself) because of the way homosexuality is regarded in pop culture. We want to push it down that much harder; we want to condemn it that much more harshly. It's kinda neat that they demolished the chapel sooner than they had already planned due to the ceremony, which is the barest of facts that I can discern, but it's much cooler if they demolished it just because of the ceremony.

But I think this is why this idea that the Church was bulldozed BECAUSE of that (as if it were eternally filthy to the point that even the Grace of God could do nothing to purify it) took off and was so willingly believed. If my Patriarch did that PURELY for that reason, I would have to say that that is not only silly but irresponsible for so many reasons. But, as Matrona said, I think there are other, real reasons behind the demolition.

FTR, I do remember reading that they torched the rubble after bulldozing it.

[InnerPhyre]

I think that probably it was done more for the sake of the locals and to quell scandal, not because it was defiled. It was already scheduled for demolition, so they moved it up just so the whole thing would be over and done with. Otherwise those driving by or in the area would see the chapel and so "oh that's that chapel where so and so happened."

If it wasn't scheduled to be destroyed, then I think that destroying it would be a little much, but moving up the demolition date for the sake of the local Orthodox is fine, in my opinion.

The entire world was sinful and desecrated, but Christ restored it.

Reminds me of when I got an icon from monastery icons. It was a gift and I took it to be blessed. Even though it was written by a heretical iconographer (gnostics? What are those folks over there these days?) my priest had no problem placing it on the altar and blessing it for me, because he said just as we are made whole at our chrismation, and the Holy Spirit fills all that is lacking, and the sinful person becomes sanctified, so would this heterodox icon become an Orthodox icon when he blessed and sanctified it.

If something like that happens and it was "defiled" it could easily be sanctified by any priest of God.

Rdr Mike

[Xpycoctomos]

If it wasn't scheduled to be destroyed, then I think that destroying it would be a little much, but moving up the demolition date for the sake of the local Orthodox is fine, in my opinion.

Agreed.


The entire world was sinful and desecrated, but Christ restored it.

that's what I was trying to say... only you said it so much more eloquently. :)

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I went back and used the original link and got the story.
I am however deeply disappointed by the direction this thread has taken. Brothers and sisters, this is Great Lent, the season of repentance. Let us focus our attention, both joint and several on Christ, and His call to repentance, remembering the prayer of St. Ephraim.
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

I agree with you!