Death, Condition of the Dead, Resurrection etc [Archive]

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LyleSmith

26th February 2007, 09:14 PM

Greetings In Jesus’ name

Well I can’t understand the Orthodox view on death, resurrection and our relationship with the departed saints on my own so I have signed up here to ask for your assistance.
The article at the protomartyr/prayer site which you refered to in your FAQ section mentions several scripture texts but does not reconcile them with others.

For example Eccl 9:10 says that there is no knowledge or wisdom in sheol

Eccl 9:5,6 says the dead know nothing, that their hatred envy, even love has perished.
Psalm 146:4 says that the thoughts of the dead perish
Isaiah says the dead are “impotent”

So this is the first problem I have- are not the dead DEAD until the resurrection, or am I misunderstanding; are you saying the dead are instantly resurrected, as if in the twinkling of an eye

Next, I am finding it hard to reconcile the intercession of the Saints with passages such as Heb7:25 “He(ie Christ) is living forever to intercede for all who come to God through him” and Rom 8;34 (Christ) who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for them”. Are you saying that the Saints do not intercede in the strictest sense but are more like beloved family who give moral support??

In Christ

Lyle

kamikat

26th February 2007, 09:39 PM

Is our God the God of the dead or the God of the living?

We ask the Saint in heaven to pray for us, just as we ask our friends and family on earth to pray for us.

OnTheWay

26th February 2007, 10:05 PM

It's been my experience that these sorts of questions are rooted in a general ignorance about the fact that in Judaism there is no defined position on an afterlife, and in fact many Jews don't believe in any sort of life after death. Outside of a few references to Shoel, the place of the dead, the ancient Jews didn't know much one way or another about what happened after death. Some Christian sects use this to support the ideal of "soul sleep" which was mainly popularized in the 19th century. Revelation of the Kingdom of God came with Christ, and Christ does interceed for us. That doesn't mean the communion of saints can't or doesn't. If I say John Doe plays hockey, does that mean no one else can play hockey? Of course not, reading a passage that way is illogical.
You also have to understand that for us the Bible is not the sole rule of faith. How can a Canon that didn't appear until the late 4th century be the sole rule of the Christian faith when Christianity pre-dates the Canon by nearly 4 centuries? Either there were no Christians before the Canon or the Canon isn't the sole rule by a long shot.

choirfiend

26th February 2007, 10:33 PM

For example Eccl 9:10 says that there is no knowledge or wisdom in sheol

Eccl 9:5,6 says the dead know nothing, that their hatred envy, even love has perished.
Psalm 146:4 says that the thoughts of the dead perish
Isaiah says the dead are “impotent”

So this is the first problem I have- are not the dead DEAD until the resurrection, or am I misunderstanding; are you saying the dead are instantly resurrected, as if in the twinkling of an eye.

The departed were in Sheol (which is NOT the same thing as Hell--the final destination for the goats at the last judgment) before Christ descended into it, shattering and destroying its power. I believe that we believe there was some degree of consciousness there. We teach that John the Baptist prepared the way for Christ just like he did in life by preaching the gospel of repentence to those "in the grave," another common term for Sheol. Everything you quote is pre-resurrection. After the Resurrection, the gates of Sheol were thrown open, broken, Christ having smashed them. Our iconography shows Christ pulling Adam and Eve from the tomb by the wrist. The Resurrection happened. No, they are not dead. "I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord."

The Jews revered saints such as Moses and Elijah, the Abrahamic Fathers and the Prophets. They also appeared talking with Christ in the Transfiguration on the Mount. They don't appear to be dead or unable to talk with Christ, and that was pre-resurrection!

With Christ's resurrection, death has been vanquished, and we may enter into eternal life with Him. Are you able to ask intercession of God now? Do you ask Him to help you and others? Why would you stop asking Him for His blessings, especially for people you know need His help, just because your earthly body has died? Why would the saints stop asking? Do you ask friends to pray for you? Why not ask those who have completed the race and stand before the face of God? The prayers of a righteous man avails much, and saints are righteous people.

There's a GREAT more to say, but I think you would benefit from some more research. Coming here to ask is a great way to get more information, so thank you for taking the time to learn about and understand our belief, whether or not you agree with it.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7076.asp
http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/afterdeath.htm (http://home.it.net.au/%7Ejgrapsas/pages/afterdeath.htm)

Enjoy ye all the feast of faith:
Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness.
Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.
It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.
O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.
Amen.

Akathist

27th February 2007, 01:24 AM

You might take a look at this body of work:

http://www.ctosonline.org/theological/FL.html (which you would need to purchase)

Here is another good source of information: http://www.greekorthodoxchurch.org/life_after_death.html

To give you a direct answer: Orthodox view the Afterlife as a "mystery". We don't try to reconcile different bible verses as it is entirly possible that they are all explaining the exact same thing using different examples and so forth. The after-life is something that is designed by God. We are not able to fully grasp it as a result. All that we can do is read various ways of trying to express the unexpressible that various theologian's have attempted.

Knowledge3

27th February 2007, 02:15 AM

He is not here, He is Risen just as He said.

Christ rose from the dead trampling death and bestowing life on life. :prayer: :priest:

buzuxi02

27th February 2007, 03:36 AM

Old Testament passages are inconclusive on the afterlife when contrasted with:

1. The praxis of Jewish beliefs.
2. Among various writings within the OT, some seem to contradict others.

For example in Judaism, during the passover sedar a space is left on the dinner table for Elijah. Tradition states that Elijahs spirit passes over every jewish sedar and pays them a visit. Also during an infant's circumcision, Judaism believes that Elijah is an honorary guest. The trained person who actually performs the circumcision is called a Mohel and he recites this prayer: "May Elijah the prophet stand at my right side to assist me".
Although Elijah never truly died the same applies as to the state he is in, as those holy people who have died.

OT verses to take into consideration:

"All go to one place, all are from the dust and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3.20-21)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12.7)

"While the child was still alive, i fasted and wept: for i said Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me that the child shall live? But now he is dead, why should i fast? Can i bring him back again? I shall go to him but he will not return to me". (2 SAM 12.22-23)

"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave for He shall recieve me." (Psalms 49.15).

As far as the intercession of the Saints, we see this in Revelation 5.8

"Now when he has taken the scroll the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the lamb,each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints".

The 24 elders are the holy people who have passed away and are in heaven, the 'prayers of the saints' are the earthly christians.

Incense is offered by a priest on behalf of intercessions for his flock (see Luke 1.8-13). In Rev 5.8 they are descrbed as 24 elders and in verse 10 they refer to themselves as 'priests'.

In the NT, Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and His three disciples during the Tranfiguration.

Jesus teaches the parable of Lazarus and the rich man on the soul of those deceased (Luke 16. 19-31).

I can go on, but i think you get the idea.

LyleSmith

28th February 2007, 02:12 AM

Thank you to those who responded :thumbsup: . I have more queries which may seem as if I did not read your posts or links; I have but must ask for your patience.

If everyone before Christ’s first advent was in sheol which is the “bosom position with Abraham”, what of the wicked? Presumably they were not in such a blessed state. Do you understand that the wicked who died before 30 ce were in that part of sheol where the dead are conscious of nothing (as per the scriptures I quoted in my first post) or are you saying that they have been consigned to Tartarus – tartaroo- along with the wicked angels see 2Pet 2:4 where some translations say tartarus instead of translating it hell.

Fr Thomas Hopko in the link “choirfriend” supplied clarifies that sometimes sheol and hades are translated ‘hell” but that is a mistake because “there is no hell until the end of the world”. Is that “hell” at the end of time the same as gehenna – geenna- the “lake of fire” in Rev 20??????

At Christ’s resurrection which resulted in victory over death “by trampling death with death”, is it accurate to say that you believe that the righteous dead were resurrected from the bosom position with Abraham to the right hand of God’s throne in heaven?. Is it correct to say that at the same time the unrighteous were resurrected from unconsciousness to a position of consciousness and are now in travail? Can you see what I am asking? I am interested in understanding how the status of the righteous and unrighteous dead changed in 30 ce and how their status will change again at the end of history.

Also I am unable to reconcile the resurrection of the dead in 30ce with the general resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous at the end of the age. How can there be a general resurrection at the last trumpet if the dead have already been resurrected in 30ce and continue to be resurrected as they die since that time?

Lastly, I am completely bamboozled by the concept of the resurrection of the body to be with our Lord, who shines brighter than a million suns. There must be a piece of the puzzle I am not seeing and I thank those in advance who respond

God Bless

Lyle

Akathist: To give you a direct answer: Orthodox view the Afterlife as a "mystery". We don't try to reconcile different bible verses as it is entirly possible that they are all explaining the exact same thing using different examples and so forth. The after-life is something that is designed by God. We are not able to fully grasp it as a result. All that we can do is read various ways of trying to express the unexpressible that various theologian's have attempted.

That was well said and ultimately I will reach that point - Lyle

buzuxi02

28th February 2007, 03:18 AM

Sheol is called Hades in the new testament. But Hades is not the same as Sheol atleast not like the OT understanding.

Hades in greek thought & mythology was the abode of the dead, but this abode was divided into three parts. The lower part was called tartarus where darkness reigned. Then there were the Elysian fields where the heroic would go and there was a third place known as the Asphodel meadows. The Asphodel meadows was in the beggining of Hades, that all the dead had to pass thru. After passing thru it, there was a fork in the road where the dead were judged. The wicked were sent down the one road to Tartarus, while the heroic were sent to Elysium. The average Joe was sent back to the Asphodel a gloomy kind of place but not too bad.

In the NT when it speaks of Tartarus, place of torment, third heaven, paradise, Abraham;s bosom its all the same locality.
Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise", yet Jesus descended into Hades for three days. Where Jesus is, there is paradise. If your close to Jesus then your in his Bosom.

Sin is the seperation from God ,the more you sin the more you seperate yourself from the divine light. Your sins is what seperates you from God and thus the further you sin the further you are from his bosom. And the further you are from His bosom, and the further your distance from the Light, the darker it gets, even unto darkness where there is gnashing of teeth.
Orthodoxy teaches that we do not get to taste the fullness of rewards and or punishments when we die.

The fullness of our rewards will be granted at the second coming when we are ressurected in our bodies and Judged by Jesus Christ himself. Until then we only recieve a foretaste of what is to come. In Revelations 6.9-11-" When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain for the word of God and for the testimony they held. And they cried with a loud voice saying, 'How long , O Lord holy and true until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on earth?. Then a white robe was given to each of them that they should rest alittle while longer until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren. who would be killed as they were, was completed".

Jesus is intercessor and mediator between God and man. The saints are intercessors between Christ and man.
If you read about the wedding feast in Cana (John 2.2-5). His mother interceded on behalf of the people by asking Jesus to turn water to wine, which Jesus did. The most important verse in that chapter is verse 5, which is verified by the Orthodox iconographic Tradition.

Jn 2.5- " His mother said to the servants, whatever He says you do it."

We are the servants and his Mother along with the saints always point towards Christ. The saints interceed for us but we must do His Will. This is best demonstrated by the Hodegetria Icon.

choirfiend

28th February 2007, 09:07 AM

Lastly, I am completely bamboozled by the concept of the resurrection of the body to be with our Lord, who shines brighter than a million suns. There must be a piece of the puzzle I am not seeing.

My goodness Lyle! I'm very glad you asked, because the fact that our bodies will be resurrected is absolutely central and fundamental to Christian belief!!

The Orthodox Christian belief is that Man was created soul AND body. God made the physical body, and breathed into it, and saw that it was good. The body is good! We are complete beings when we are soul AND body.
The Fall was spiritual death and physically we were changed as well. With sin, death entered the world. The Orthodox definition of death is the separation of soul and body. The body cannot survive without the soul, and neither is the soul complete without the body. Our fallen bodies are weak, and we are more and more subject to sin the more we give in to the passions, both physical and spiritual, for one affects the other; they are interrelated, symbiotic would be a word, I supposed, but not completely accurate, for they are not two distinct parts, but one inseparable whole.

The ENTIRE POINT of Christianity is that God became Man. He took on flesh. He had a body; He was like unto us in every way save sin. He was born of the Virgin Mary. He took on our fallen flesh, with all its temptations, and He and He alone was the Perfect Human, as God's intent for us was in the Garden. Adam sinned, but Christ did not. He has restored our Humanity to it's proper glory; sons by adoption of our Father in Heaven, in communion with Him.

Death could not hold God. He was PHYSICALLY resurrected from the dead; a whole person, the only truly Complete Man. The tomb was empty. The grave clothes were left behind.

His Body was now different, not subject to death ever again. He appeared to some and they did not recognize Him. He entered locked chambers. But the story of Thomas is to PROVE to us also that Christ's resurrected body is real, when he puts forth his hands and touches Him and proclaims, "My Lord and my God!" He converses with His disciples. He eats with them (and it is in the breaking of bread that they knew Him, an image of holy communion). All these show us His real Body (which we believe He gives us for our food, exactly as He said).

It is this Perfect Man, also Perfect God, the restoration of the Human Race, who ascends to sit at the right hand of God. Christ, the God-Man (Theanthropos) has taken humanity to the throne of heaven. A Man sits at the right hand of God, with a REAL body!

When the final judgment occurs, OUR bodies will be resurrected to--for God was like us, in every way save sin, and He is our restoration. There is no dichotomy between body and soul, but BOTH are important.

This resurrection is not the "awakening" from some "sleep" that the departed souls of people are in. It is the resurrection of the body to be re-united with the soul, and to be judged as a whole person. Because He has restored Hiumanity, our humanity will be like His, the new bodies which are spoken of in Scripture.

How could our bodies NOT be raised? Christ was raised! The Resurrection is the glory of the Christian people! In the Creed, we say "I believe in the resurrection of the dead" and it is this resurrection that we mean.

There were heretics in the early centuries that taught that the bodily resurrection didnt happen; that bodies were not important, only spirit was. They were called the Gnostics, who believed in hidden knowledge. Because of their teaching, some of them neglected the body, and some actively mistreated it. They had a very sensual living, since the body was just a shell that had encapsulated and jailed their soul, and one day it would die and they would be freed from it. You can see that this is counter to everything that the Incarnation means for us and our salvation. Christ was perfect God and perfect Man.

Christ is Risen from the dead!
Indeed He is Risen!

LyleSmith

28th February 2007, 10:24 PM

Thank you buzuxi, that was very helpful and the picture is coming into focus.

Choirfiend: A Man sits at the right hand of God, with a REAL body!

When the final judgment occurs, OUR bodies will be resurrected to

Dear friend, does this not contradict 1Cor15:44 “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body” ? and vs 50,53 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God…….their corruptible must put on incorruption”

I always "assumed" that the resurrection was with a glorified spiritual body, a body that could be in the presence of our Lord who shines brighter then all the stars in all the galaxies. Can a “REAL body” as you say ,resurrected from the corruptable elements of the earth come into the very presence of the Holy and Magnificent one in Heaven?

Angels appeared at times with physical bodies eg Abraham and the three men in Gen 18:2 and when Jacob wrestled with an angel, he wrestled with a man. But an angel in Heaven does not have a corporeal body as a man does, would you not agree? :confused:

In Jesus' name - Lyle

choirfiend

28th February 2007, 10:58 PM

Lyle,

I think that some of your interpretation of the Scriptures would need to be corrected in order to fall in with Orthodox teaching, and probably some of my meaning and terminology. So that we dont talk past each other, Im going to post the commentary from my Orthodox Study Bible on those passages for you. Tomorrow. When I have more than 5 minutes to type. I hope. :)

For right now, let me just say that NO, it is not our corrupted bodies--these Fallen bodies, subject to death, disease, pain, hunger, injury, and all the evils of the world--which will be in Heaven. Likewise, it was not Christ's fallen body (the one that was subject to all of the same), but Christ's Resurrected body, the one which is no longer subject to death, disease, hunger, pain, or injury, which was raised up, and which ascended into heaven, where He sits at the right hand. This body is obviously incorruptible, but it is still REAL. He is not only spirit. I really think the study bible sections will be good.

In the meantime, if anyone else wants to help me out and type the comments from I Corinthians 15:35- 15:56 on the next page, I would appreciate it.

Rowan

28th February 2007, 11:55 PM

In the meantime, if anyone else wants to help me out and type the comments from I Corinthians 15:35- 15:56 on the next page, I would appreciate it.

1 Corinthians 15:35-54 ~

How will the dead rise? What is the resurrection body like? Paul's most basic contrast is that between the natural (literally "soulish"; Gr. psychikon) and the spiritual (Gr. pneumatikon, v. 44), that is, between the present body and the deified body. Other contrasts are corruption vs. incorruption (v. 42), dishonor vs. glory (v. 43), weakness vs. power (v. 43), living "soul" (literal translation) vs. life-giving spirit (v. 45), of the earth vs. from heaven (v. 47), of dust vs heavenly (v. 48), the mortal vs. the immortal (v. 54).

This present body is only a seed (v. 38) of the body to come. The "spiritual" body is not a pale shadow of the material world we now know; the opposite is true. The resurrection body is the fulfillment of what God intends for our present body. It is the material fulfilled, not dematerialized.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ~

Whose body is this? As our present body is Adam's, so the resurrection body is the last Adam's, Christ's.

1 Corinthians 15:50 ~

Flesh and blood (v. 50) refers to human nature in its present weak and imperfect condition.

1 Corinthians 15:56 ~

Our basic moral condition is manifested in sin. We are born mortal; we then become sinful. Thus does death "sting" us before we die. Being a Christian is more than having one's sins forgiven or being good; it is being alive.

The law is not sinful, but it exposes sin. And, since it does not provide the power to obey it, it increases sinfulness in unchanged humans (Rom. 3:20; 4:15; 5:13; 20; 7:7; Gal. 3:19-22).

~OSB

Knowledge3

1st March 2007, 01:17 AM

In the meantime, if anyone else wants to help me out and type the comments from I Corinthians 15:35- 15:56 on the next page, I would appreciate it.

(Greek-Interlinear) Corinthians 15.32
In a moment, in a glance of the eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we all shall be changed.(53) For this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

OnTheWay

1st March 2007, 02:06 AM

Just for clarification, Hel vs. hell needs to be understood. The word "hell" comes to us from the Germanic pagan religions. In Germanic mythology Hel was just a place dead people went if they didn't make it to the hall of a patron god or goddess. It wasn't bad, or a place of punishment. The words are quite similar and over time the distinction between Hel and hell was lost. As such Hel = Abraham's bossom and hell = the lake of fire.

LyleSmith

2nd March 2007, 05:08 AM

Thank you for your responses. Unfortunately I did not understand that....what Rowan posted.

I have the orthodox study bible- the NT with psalms, produced by conciliar press. I have "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Ware and an Orthodox commentary on Revelation and that is all I have. Where else in the OSB can I find info on this?????

Thanks

Lyle

Akathist

2nd March 2007, 05:26 AM

choirfiend

2nd March 2007, 11:20 AM

Those are some good resources. This is another resource (in book form) that you can find online. There are four volumes on many topics at a basic level for your perusal. The link is a section that deals specifically with Christ's resurrection and the important thereof for us.

http://oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=21

eoe

2nd March 2007, 11:49 AM

You can get an OSB for free - click here and scroll down. (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/biblefunds.htm)
http://ourlifeinchrist.com/images/osb_image.jpg (http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/the_orthodox_study_bible.html)
Our Free, "No Strings Attached" Orthodox Study Bible Offer! You can receive an Orthodox Study Bible as a gift from the Our Life In Christ radio ministry. If you are non-Orthodox and listen to the broadcast in the Phoenix metropolitan area, we encourage you to ask for one (Orthodox Christians are encouraged to purchase one from their church bookstore). You may already be using your Thompson, Scofield, Ryrie, or Harper Study Bible, but the OSB is a great resource containing insightful notes and commentary about Orthodox Christian faith and practice. To make a request, just send us an email - use the radiohost@ourlifeinchrist.com link above, and provide us your full name and Phoenix area mailing address (no P.O. boxes, please.) That's it. We won't bother you with email spam, phone calls, or knocking on your front door.
Please allow us about 2 weeks to get it mailed out to you.

Christ has destroyed death. He is very much alive and well in a physical body made of matter. Sheol has been broken open and no longer holds us when we die.

buzuxi02

3rd March 2007, 05:34 AM

Dear Lyle,
Before the fall Adam and Eve had incorrupt bodies. Jesus who alone is without sin had an incorrupt body. Adam upon eating the fruit became corrupt and subject to death. If Adam had not transgressed and remained in Eden where no violence existed he theoretically would have lived forever.

After the ressurection we will be transformed not only with an incorrupt body but also an indestructible body.

According to scripture Jesus was incapable of dying a natural death (from old age). Because he was in the same state as Adam before he transgressed. Christ was immortal and voluntarily went to the cross:

"No one takes it from me, but i lay it down of myself,I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again" (Jn 10.18)

"... We have heard from the Law the Christ remains forever and how can you say the "Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" (John 12.34)

When the scripture says flesh and blood cannot recieve the Kingdom of God, it refers to the sinful passions of the flesh:

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you maybe able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph 6.12)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident which are sexual immorality , adultery ,lewdness, uncleaness, idolatry ,sorcery, , hatred contentions, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions.... And those who are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Gal 5.19-25)

Both Elijah and Enoch were translated into heaven without dying.

A natural body is one subject to old age and death, The ressurected body is a spiritual body in that its deified.
Angels and Spirits and Ghosts are immaterial and have no body at all.

Jesus said, "Behold my hands and my feet that it is I Myself . Handle me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see i have." (Lk 24.39)

When Lazarus was raised from the dead he walked out of the tomb still wearing his burial linens. The empty tomb of Jesus on the other hand only contained his burial linens. The Church Fathers interpret this; that Lazarus will still need his burial linens while Christ ressurected no longer dies and has no need for them.

Shubunkin

3rd March 2007, 01:45 PM

LyleSmith

3rd March 2007, 08:37 PM

Akathist: Lyle, in the OSB go to I Corinthians 15:35- 15:56 and read the notes... Rowan typed them out.. that is all.

Yes, thankyou Akathist, I understood where the quote came from but did not understand its meaning. :thumbsup:

Eoe Christ has destroyed death. He is very much alive and well in a physical body made of matter.

But doesn’t this contradict what buzuxi is saying here? After the ressurection we will be transformed not only with an incorrupt body but also an indestructible body.

Now an indestructible body, one that can stand to be in the presence of God in heaven is no longer a physical body made of matter is it? Yesterday it was very hot here in the town in Australia where I live and I got sunburnt. Wouldn’t we logically assume that the creator of the sun would emit more energy than the sun He created and thus a literal physical body would be burnt up if resurrected into His very presence in heaven?.

Buzuxi quotes Adam,- he had an incorrupt body – good point; but are you saying that Adam in his literal physical body could stand in the presence of God in heaven as the cherubim do?.

On the one hand I can understand your emphasis on the literal resurrection of the physical body. If it is NOT the literal body then death is victor, Satan has won and The Lord God has been stymied in his purpose to have an image of Himself in human children.But does not a “transformation” to borrow buzuxi’s word (probably out of context –sigh) take place?

As you say, it really was Christ’s literal feet and hands in Luke24:39……. It seems that Orthodox Christians, being the ancient faith they are, constantly look backward to the history of all the heresies they have fought over all the centuries and so the language they use today is somewhat rigidified into a formula. I am glad that your dignifying of the human body undercuts the terrible “T” in the Calvinist TULIP theology which underpins so much of Protestant thought but I am sorry to say that I cannot understand your alternative explanations at present. :cry:

In The Love Of The Risen Jesus

Lyle

buzuxi02

4th March 2007, 04:35 AM

To speculate on the nature of our physical body at ressurection is fruitless. Jesus Christ indeed ressurected in a physical body yet still walked thru a door without opening it. The limits of our transformed physical bodies is not revealed.
When we say we will be ressurected in our bodies this means that man is incomplete without it. Man is a trinity for he is made in the image and likeness of God. We are mind, body and soul, not just soul (see 1Thess 5.23).