Christians and government

[Cris413]

In another thread, several opinions/questions caught my attention regarding the separation of church and state; that one should have nothing to do with the other.

Also, Christianity vs. patriotism: that we can’t or shouldn’t be both.

I know my viewpoint about these particular issues but I am interested to learn how others view them.

[cherokeehippie]

To me mixing my faith in the LOrd and patriotism is yucko and not right. Also, in this sin fallen world where satan and the fallen angels have temporary control(until when Jesus returns) over all the nations(including ours), there is no way that the 'powers to be' would allow true christianity have control. If you study world history, you will see all thru out, that 'the false religious system' state religion always killed and persecuted true believers and others. You have the iniquistions in Spain, etc , and even in Massachusetts when the puritians were in control they kicked out those who where not like them--Roger Williams, Anne Hutchison, quakers, etc. There were some quaker women who were hung--one of whom might have been an ancestor of mine. The fallen angels control the false religious political system and will use God's word and twist things to a perversiion and spiritual abuse for their means. In Revelations God tells us to leave Babylon and take no part in Babylon's sins--a religious and political system out to destroy men's souls. It happened when 'christian denominations' mixed with gov. officials to 'educated' the native american indians when they created the boarding schools where a lot of sexual abuse, beatings, even murder took place towards the Native children who were forbiddened to speak their languages and taught to be 'white'. As a result of the boarding schools, many natives see christianity as a colonial religion out to destroy natives and many of the kids grew up to be messed up and drink, abuse their families, etc.
American democracy and repubic is a 'farce' and a myth. America was never a christian nation. The fallen angels and fallen men who followed them, meant for america to be a 'new atlantis'. Also, when the puritans came to the New World, wanting to make this country 'New Israel'. They looked down on the Natives and felt that Native americans were like the canaanites that had to be destroyed. They felt no remorse about killing 'injuns'. In fact, they considered it a sweet fragrant sacrifice to God!! It's there, look it up!!!!! If uyou don't believe me! So for me, and others of Native descent, it's somewhat offensive to hear nonnative christians talk about 'taking amerivca back for God' and 'returning to the faith of our forefathers', etc. Some of those so called forefathers said some really rotten things about Natives.

Because I've been learning a lot about the illuminati, freemasons, eugenics, etc, I can now understand why there was the abusive boarding schools. It was the satanic 'powers to be' in high places in politics and relgion--those who don't know the Lord, who did this stuff. THey are still in power nad their plan is to eliminate most of the world and get down to a population of 500,000 in hte world. They look down on us.

[cherokeehippie]

Oh yeah, and talkinga bout nationality,etc. My zeal is for all nations to honor the Creator and His Son Jesus in all their native cultural forms. Not just western European. I go to Native christian gatherings when I can where they worship the Lord with Native style worship--the drum, flute, etc. My favorite cd right now is native powow style worship cd by "Broken Walls" Some would want chrisitans to be all cookie cutter all the same, but No, I think when the Lord Returns, when the nations come to worship Him in Jerusalem, it will be awesome with all the native forms.

[cherokeehippie]

Oh yeah, another thing, I believe that those who have come to know the LOrd, a personal relationship with Him--born again--saved, vs just 'growing up' in church will understand what I'm trying to explain. I have a great-aunt(who married my great-uncle) who grew up 'going to oral roberts meetings with her grandmother, but who have no understanding of spiritual things but mixes british israelitism, american patriotism, etc, with 'christianity'. We knocked heads and she treats me just like the other unsaved members of my family does--persecution.
'

[cherokeehippie]

Actually, something I said in my first post, I realize something. No, the fallen angels, will only be too happy to let 'true christianity' be in control, so that they can use it for their own use to cause people to turn away from Christ(like the Native boarding school fiasco) and think that the spiritual abuse is of God when it's not. Average secular joe, who don't know the Lord, can't distinquish true christianity from the false religious form and so he thinks it's all the same and will stumble when religious leaders, etc abuse him.

[Nadiine]

In another thread, several opinions/questions caught my attention regarding the separation of church and state; that one should have nothing to do with the other.

Also, Christianity vs. patriotism: that we can’t or shouldn’t be both.

I know my viewpoint about these particular issues but I am interested to learn how others view them.
Imo, separating church from state is ultimately impossible since morality has to be legislated to a degree in any society.

Take marriage - who governs who can marry? That's a MORAL issue, so how do you keep the spiritual/religion OUT of govt.?
Don't we think Christians should be in the voting booth's on at LEAST moral issues?
How can you be against gay marriage (or polygamy etc), yet refuse to VOTE AGAINST IT ! Imo, that's just plain irresponsible as a Christian.

Would we bother to vote against abortion? Or is that being too involved to stop the murder of millions of helpless infants? Refusing to vote against something is ultimately allowing it to continue, isn't it?
Yet, these same "christians" sit by complaining about society! :doh:

Patriotism - I think that's one of those Christian liberties; some people think it's evil & some sort of 'betrayal' of God. I'm patriotic - just like the Israelites were when they carried their banners around & fought for their people. Your country is basically YOUR PEOPLE within it!
I don't grasp how it's viewed any other way.

Ultimately, in other cultures in past times, Christians had NO POWER (voting rights - or living under dictators/Kings) and were heavily persecuted under those rulers... it baffles me why Christians WITH VOTING POWER sit on their hands & refuse to vote for at LEAST a "lesser evil" than another canditate!

If a majority of Christian conservatives were voted into power (incl. judicial branches), perhaps morality wouldn't be so low today? Perhaps GOD wouldn't be taken out of the school, or 10 commandments taken off of city buildings, etc. Perhaps a military pastor who prays in JESUS name, wouldn't be ejected from duty!!

THIS IS THE BATTLE RIGHT NOW. Removal of GOD from govt. Any Christian idly sitting by & watching it happen should think about possible apathy issues.
If not US, then who?? Who else has God enlisted as soldiers in His army? We are HIS hands & feet down here, signed up for duty.

No, instead, they'de like to just by & complain about everything & everyone & how terrible it's getting...
If you want to see it continue, just continue sitting on the sidelines & complaining. :sleep: :yawn: :sleep: :yawn: :swoon:

[cherokeehippie]

I vote, but personally I don't believe it makes much of a difference because the illuminati has their guys on both sides of the fence--repubican and democrat. Take Bush and kerry the last pres. election for example. They both were Skull and Bones members. A known illuminati cultish secret society. The satanic elite make sure that no one who is truly righteous run for office and that the politician's 'christianity' is just lip service.

[BustedFlat]

1Jo 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=2&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16) For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Some read that and say: Whoa patriotism is bad. To be involved it that is bad. But then Peter, during the reign if terror that was Nero wrote:


1Pe 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=11&version=kjv#11) Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv#12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=14&version=kjv#14) Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=15&version=kjv#15) For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16) As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Pe&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17) Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.


Note he says Submit to every “ordnance of men for the Lord's sake”. Not to only the ones that do not involve being flogged for being a Christian, but every one. Does this mean if they pass a law today that all Christians are to be flogged are we to stop being Christians?
No but we are to accept the flogging and be that shinning light to others that although our flesh is tortured, our faith remains in Him.

So are (we) to blindly love our country above our God ... no. but are we to support and respect our government ... without a doubt.


Now as to Church and State as for what it pertains to in our country: The Declaration of Independence (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html) says


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--


It was self evident to the founders the words of 1 Peter 2:15, The Lord had made us free and and in the words of Galatians 3:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=3&verse=28&version=kjv#28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.



The Constitution (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html) says in part:


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


The government derives its power from the people and is chartered by them, Not the other way around. The power flow is from God to people to government. We as Christians are called to maintain that order.



The Bill of Rights (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html) as the first amendment to the Constitution (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html) says:



Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The Founding fathers mandated that the Government stay out of the religious beliefs of the people, not the other way around. If more people would prayerfully read the Bible and the documents that founded their countries the would better understand why we are where we are and how to affect the changes needed for His purpose.


Most citizens are of the mind set that what ever is better for me here and now is what is best. Thus they vote for the politician that will bring the most for his district and for you personally, Rather than ask the hard questions and investigate what candidate knows, understands, and will be bound by the constraints of the constitution and of Gods Word we vote in the flesh.


We are a carnal beings, and although we are called to walk with The Spirit, too many of us remain carnal.


In Jesus




BustedFlat




Note: Links are to the National Archives and are the full transcripts of our founding documents.

[JAS4Yeshua]

BustedFlat's post was excellent. I only have one additional comment to add. We, as Christians, need to stand up for what we believe in on a political level as well. We have that right guaranteed to us by the Constitution as BustedFlat pointed out. When we don't exercise that right, especially when it comes to the voting booth, we are allowing the enemy to continue to take away those rights from us. At the same time, we also need to remember that politics isn't the answer. Prayer and obedience to God is. We participate in our political world through that obedience to God, but always put God first.

[LJSGM]

Although I respect the government I live under, I don't have "pride" in it. Too many christians think that the way to influence the world is through politics. It may have an apperance of wisdom, but we do what is commanded of us, and that is to preach the gospel to all nations. To side step that and to do something else that appears wise can even be hindering to the true purpose of our mission.

2 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)

3Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

The soldier doesn't get involved in things that might take his focus off his mission, if he did, it might hinder him, and he may lose the battle. You do what is commanded of you, plain and simple. What did Jesus command of us? To make life better for ourselves through surpressing sin by the law of the government? Or to PREACH the GOSPEL, which is the power of God.

Too many Americans have become complaicent as well, due to this indroctrination of patroicism. What does it tell us? It tells us to be proud that our nation is christian (which it isn't, the Kingdom of God is) and try to pursue a happy life. It tells us to KILL others to uphold this pride and way of life (which the bible says that we DO NOT battle this way), It tells us that we are better then others in other nations, and in our mind they are "less the human," which is yet another way that we seperate ourselves from our brothers in Christ. It tells us that we can form a uptopian society that is based on Christ. Too many christians put America in a place of an idol before God, praising it. If you bypassed all of these horrible traits, it's probably the Holy Spirit's doing, because it's hard to come out of a brain washing.

[BustedFlat]

I vote, but personally I don't believe it makes much of a difference because the illuminati has their guys on both sides of the fence--repubican and democrat. Take Bush and kerry the last pres. election for example. They both were Skull and Bones members. A known illuminati cultish secret society. The satanic elite make sure that no one who is truly righteous run for office and that the politician's 'christianity' is just lip service.


We need to vote in every election we are eligible, not just the general presidential elections. Where our vote has real power is in the primary elections as well as in the down ballot elections for judges, school board, city council, county seats etc. These are the people that make up the pool from which we are to choose the higher offices and if these are God fearing, Christians people then we have a much better chance of not losing ground to the worldly.


In Jesus


BustedFlat

[Nadiine]

Although I respect the government I live under, I don't have "pride" in it. Too many christians think that the way to influence the world is through politics. It may have an apperance of wisdom, but we do what is commanded of us, and that is to preach the gospel to all nations. To side step that and to do something else that appears wise can even be hindering to the true purpose of our mission.

2 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)

3Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

The soldier doesn't get involved in things that might take his focus off his mission, if he did, it might hinder him, and he may lose the battle. You do what is commanded of you, plain and simple. What did Jesus command of us? To make life better for ourselves through surpressing sin by the law of the government? Or to PREACH the GOSPEL, which is the power of God.

Too many Americans have become complaicent as well, due to this indroctrination of patroicism. What does it tell us? It tells us to be proud that our nation is christian (which it isn't, the Kingdom of God is) and try to pursue a happy life. It tells us to KILL others to uphold this pride and way of life (which the bible says that we DO NOT battle this way), It tells us that we are better then others in other nations, and in our mind they are "less the human," which is yet another way that we seperate ourselves from our brothers in Christ. It tells us that we can form a uptopian society that is based on Christ. Too many christians put America in a place of an idol before God, praising it. If you bypassed all of these horrible traits, it's probably the Holy Spirit's doing, because it's hard to come out of a brain washing.
First off, to Busted Flat, :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

About putting TRUST in our politicians - I agree with you, but it's not about 'trust' anymore imo.

IT'S ABOUT WHO'S THE LEAST DANGEROUS TO TAKE POWER!. Sadly, we don't even have good candidates to choose from anymore -
That's where I agree w/ Busted Flat, the primaries & other elections are very important.

But I don't vote becuz i TRUST in any of them, I vote on who's less dangerous than the other one.
Call it "a lesser of 2 evils" if you will....

It's a tragedy, but I vote in every election & primary there is & that's my mindframe today.
At least we try to promote conservatives in - not that they necessary "are our answer".
:angel:

[BustedFlat]

All praise goes to The Lord!


The bible tells that our mission is to spread the word of Jesus, and to allow his light to shine through us. This should therefor flow through all we do, including our choices when we are in that voting booth and the work we do before we get there. To not work from within the framework of our system for the Glory of His Name is to totally miss that what we are charged by Jesus to do.



Do our best to make sure that our country aligns itself with God ... not the other way around.


In Jesus

BustedFlat

[Nadiine]

All praise goes to The Lord!


The bible tells that our mission is to spread the word of Jesus, and to allow his light to shine through us. This should therefor flow through all we do, including our choices when we are in that voting booth and the work we do before we get there. To not work from within the framework of our system for the Glory of His Name is to totally miss that what we are charged by Jesus to do.

Do our best to make sure that our country aligns itself with God ... not the other way around.
In Jesus
BustedFlat
I cant' agree more... if CHRISTIANS aren't working (at the polls) to try to get some conservative values back into this country, WHO WILL? the unsaved?

The less we do, the more immoral and Hostile to God the country will get imho.
:thumbsup:

[JAS4Yeshua]

I cant' agree more... if CHRISTIANS aren't working (at the polls) to try to get some conservative values back into this country, WHO WILL? the unsaved?

The less we do, the more immoral and Hostile to God the country will get imho.
:thumbsup:
I completely agree with you. It is a sad state our country is in, when so many Christians have taken up apathetic attitudes towards politics, allowing the evil to become further entrenched in our society.

[cherokeehippie]

It's not by flesh or blood but by His SPirit. His Kingdom is not political. We are just banging our heads against a system run by fallen angels if we try by only political means to pass laws to try to get the US back to some righteous christian era that never really existed in our country. I've been looking at old Newspaper archives and it's amazing how things were similiar back then. A man killing himself and his wife, etc. I think it's naive to think that just by voting, etc, that we can change things. Can't you guys get it???? The fallen angels and the illuminati won't allow it. THey have their ways. If someone tries to 'buck the system' --they are usually 'suicided'. Many scientists for some reason have been 'suicided'.. There is a whole list of people who have tried to speak up on what's going on behind the scenes--for example, one guy who wrote a book on the Bush family--and their connections to the nazi's back in the 40's, was murdered and it was made to look like suicide. It's heavy spiritual warfare in Washington DC,... that's what I've sensed and if there is such a thing as a all out, righteous Politican in office, I don't think they would last long in office. It's naive to think that conservative politicians are righteous or christians and uncorrupted. It's in both camps, not just the left camp. Both left and right wings of the whole illuminati political system is corrupted and at the whims of fallen angels.

[cherokeehippie]

ANother thing, back in the 40s, many of the elite and wealthy businessmen supported the nazis and did business with them. I think the average joe american christian didn't know this. No telling what is going on today! I believe there are those in our gov(Yes, even 'conservatves, not just left) who are buddying up with the islamic terrorists.) I think instead of just voting, we should prayerfully study and consider what is really going on.

[cherokeehippie]

Did yall know that Washington DC is layed out in the design of a Kabbalah tree with the Masonic Temple at the head.(not the white house or capital, but the Masonic Temple headquarters) Yeah, A christian online radio program had a thing on that.
http://www.peeringintodarkness.com/forum/index.php?topic=4214.0

[Cris413]

Thanks everyone. I really felt a burden on my heart to address these issues. Originally I had written a very lengthy post to start this thread. As I read through it and after prayerful consideration I only felt led to post the first few statements.

I felt I had to step aside and let the Lord lead. And as I read through the posts I see that people more equipped than I stepped up. Praise God.

Busted Flat, JAS4Yeshua and Nadiine :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thank you so much for expressing what was in my heart but did not have the eloquence to present.

God bless

[LJSGM]

Go ahead and vote, I do, but realize that it's not going to do much, because it can't change people's hearts, only the power of the Gospel can.

People focus sooo much energy on this government (I don't know about other people in other governments) but did Jesus or paul or anyone apostal do this (they are good examples)? Did they go out and potest laws or anything of the sort? No, he preached the gospel at EVERY oppertunity. They went to Many different places and different nations Preaching so that people could have eternal life, and God brought the Holy Spirit in power.

Maybe I consider you to be appathetic of God's kingdom when you emphasize to Christians to do something that wasn't commanded of them, insteading encourging others to do what they are told, to advance the kingdom of God. There is power in the Gospel, not politics. Trying to change the world by human wisdom and laws. It didn't work for the pharasees, why would it work for you?

[Nadiine]

Go ahead and vote, I do, but realize that it's not going to do much, because it can't change people's hearts, only the power of the Gospel can.

People focus sooo much energy on this government (I don't know about other people in other governments) but did Jesus or paul or anyone apostal do this (they are good examples)? Did they go out and potest laws or anything of the sort? No, he preached the gospel at EVERY oppertunity. They went to Many different places and different nations Preaching so that people could have eternal life, and God brought the Holy Spirit in power.

Maybe I consider you to be appathetic of God's kingdom when you emphasize to Christians to do something that wasn't commanded of them, insteading encourging others to do what they are told, to advance the kingdom of God. There is power in the Gospel, not politics. Trying to change the world by human wisdom and laws. It didn't work for the pharasees, why would it work for you?
Well, I don't think they lived under a democracy did they? I think they got Ceasar & that was it. Any 'freedom of speech' uprising of laws might of gotten them tortured or imprisoned no doubt for treason.

Since that isn't the case for Christians in democracy, I think we should exercise our rights of speech (speech for Christ & His commands).

I fully understand your points... I think we're in the last days & our complaining & picketing won't do a whole lot - but it may just keep the others restrained longer from taking away more things.

I just feel compelled to do what I can as His servant - something for the better as well as I can. :angel:

[Nadiine]

ANother thing, back in the 40s, many of the elite and wealthy businessmen supported the nazis and did business with them. I think the average joe american christian didn't know this. No telling what is going on today! I believe there are those in our gov(Yes, even 'conservatves, not just left) who are buddying up with the islamic terrorists.) I think instead of just voting, we should prayerfully study and consider what is really going on.
Interesting info - some of it I've heard before, but not all of this. I'm more leary about that Skull & Crossbones stuff.
As far as the Masonry, that's a very real & big issue. My friend whos in spiritual warfare told me lots of stuff about them - her father was a 32nd or 33rd? degree mason - nasty business.
I'm fully aware there's alot of corrupt, evil stuff at the roots of this country.
But I also know governments can't save us. I think bad things are inevitable to come soon - mainly becuz it's the times we're in, and evil is escalating; worldwide.

Still, if I do nothing... I'm guilty of not doing anything about it. Prayer (for the church & country) & continuing in the Lord are our BEST weapons against the darkness.
I agree. amen :wave: :angel:

[Nadiine]

Thanks everyone. I really felt a burden on my heart to address these issues. Originally I had written a very lengthy post to start this thread. As I read through it and after prayerful consideration I only felt led to post the first few statements.

I felt I had to step aside and let the Lord lead. And as I read through the posts I see that people more equipped than I stepped up. Praise God.

Busted Flat, JAS4Yeshua and Nadiine :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thank you so much for expressing what was in my heart but did not have the eloquence to present.

God bless
:hug:
I don't like starting threads at all lol. When I do start them, i have a full page of all the aspects about it & arguments on both sides heheheee. :P
I have to erase 1/2 of what I type.:sleep:

I think you did a great job on this thread, thanks for posting it, I'm enjoying the discussion.

[twistedsketch]

I don't have a problem with patriotism at all, but that's going to depend on the government you are under. The absolute best deal will be when Christ rules on Earth for a thousand years. Until then, mankind has got to do the best it can to administer justice and no system will be perfect. Furthermore, Christians have got to love each other and put political differences aside. There are radicals out there who believe it is their holy duty to hate the U.S. government and anyone who agrees with them, and they won't even acknowledge that other Christians are really brothers or sisters in Christ. This is sinful:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Gal 5:19-21

What I have underlined marks the behavior and attitude of these people. They can't agree to disagree on these matters that are not essential to the faith.

[cherokeehippie]

There are radicals the other way around, too who think anyone who isn't like them(republican, Bush, Americans can do no wrong, etc) isn't a christian either, which is really sad. I agree, we need to put politics aside, but that doesn't mean, we have to sweep under the rug the truth of what is really going on. I'm in the middle.

[Cris413]

I don't have a problem with patriotism at all, but that's going to depend on the government you are under. The absolute best deal will be when Christ rules on Earth for a thousand years. Until then, mankind has got to do the best it can to administer justice and no system will be perfect. Furthermore, Christians have got to love each other and put political differences aside. There are radicals out there who believe it is their holy duty to hate the U.S. government and anyone who agrees with them, and they won't even acknowledge that other Christians are really brothers or sisters in Christ. This is sinful:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Gal 5:19-21

What I have underlined marks the behavior and attitude of these people. They can't agree to disagree on these matters that are not essential to the faith.

:amen:

[Christian_Babe234]

I don't have a problem with being a patriot. I know ALOT of people who in war with Iraque and go to our church when they come home for visits with their families.

[Cris413]

Go ahead and vote, I do, but realize that it's not going to do much, because it can't change people's hearts, only the power of the Gospel can.

People focus sooo much energy on this government (I don't know about other people in other governments) but did Jesus or paul or anyone apostal do this (they are good examples)? Did they go out and potest laws or anything of the sort? No, he preached the gospel at EVERY oppertunity. They went to Many different places and different nations Preaching so that people could have eternal life, and God brought the Holy Spirit in power.

Maybe I consider you to be appathetic of God's kingdom when you emphasize to Christians to do something that wasn't commanded of them, insteading encourging others to do what they are told, to advance the kingdom of God. There is power in the Gospel, not politics. Trying to change the world by human wisdom and laws. It didn't work for the pharasees, why would it work for you?

As I read through this thread, I don't see anyone suggesting to take focus off the Kingdom and put faith in politics.

Jesus is the only One perfect. We are not all called to be apostles but we are called to be effective witnesses. That may take many different avenues in our day to day lives.

I think the point here is that being civic minded is part of putting feet to faith. No one is saying that is where we should place our faith.

God is in control. The battle is already won.

Evil will wax worse and worse until finally God lifts His hand of grace and evil runs rampant. We know this to be true but yet we do not sit idly by while it happens.

There is much more to being effective witnesses and useful vessels for the Kingdom. Sharing the gospel is first and foremost but also of importance is the example of our lives. Having a voice for God is more than preaching the Good News it's also taking a stand against the things of this world that are in direct conflict of God's word. It's also taking a stand for the things that are of God in whatever forum is presented to us.

Yes the point may be moot but that does not mean we give up our voice or take our responsibilities lightly.

God bless

[cherokeehippie]

I agree, taking a stand against the things of this world--which is why I try my best to explain the illuminati. What i"ve learned about the illuminati, eugenics, etc, helps makes me understand why we have these things going on, not only abortion, but also why the abusive boarding shcools, and forced sterilizations of Native women took place, etc. The roots of abortion goes back to racist elitists in high places who wanted to rid the world of 'undesirables', anyone nonwhite, Natives, Africans, Jewish, retarded, low IQ, people they considered undesirables, had to be do away--so they sterilized over 40,000 americans back in the early 1900s. Then there were the ku klux klan. Millions of americans joined the klan back in the 20's. The klan promised them that they were standing up to justice, against the ills of society, yet many were deceived in thinking the klan was good. It wasn't until the head of the Klan was arrested for raping and chewing on a woman on a train, that opened many's eyes to the true nature of the klan. They were decieved also in thinking racism and keeping nonWasps 'put in their places' was the way to go.

[cherokeehippie]

http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Dragon-D-C-Stephenson-Klux/dp/1557530467

[cherokeehippie]

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

[Cris413]

For the record. I love God. I love my country. I love my husband. I love my dogs.

If I ever have to choose. I'd choose my husband over my dogs. I'd choose God over my husband.

Praise God I don't have to make those choices.

If in my lifetime if my country becomes anything other than One Nation Under God. Or In God We trust is no longer noted on our currency...then I would no longer consider myself a patriot of the United States of America.

I feel I am truly blessed to live in a country where my voice (a voice for the Kingdom) can be heard loud and clear and I do not have to fear being flogged, imprisoned or put to death for professing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my love for God and His Kingdom.

So while we're considering how Christianity and patriotism do not mix lets take a moment to pray for our brothers and sisters around the world that are not so fortunate.

:groupray: Can we come together on that?

Amen
</IMG>

[LJSGM]

I feel I am truly blessed to live in a country where my voice (a voice for the Kingdom) can be heard loud and clear and I do not have to fear being flogged, imprisoned or put to death for professing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my love for God and His Kingdom.

So while we're considering how Christianity and patriotism do not mix lets take a moment to pray for our brothers and sisters around the world that are not so fortunate.

:groupray: Can we come together on that?

Amen
</IMG>

Here's a thought, Our "way of life" tends to harbor complacency, Whereas I sometimes envy those that are persecuted for Christ, not only do they recieve great rewards in heaven, but the power of the gospel is spread like wild fire, the presence of God is overflowing and suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope. God is right there with them, taking care of them still, I believe that, because I believe in the promises of God.

Have you ever read "The heavenly man"? It sets me on fire! If you ever want to truely experience God, go to one of these countries where there is persecution, and He's there like wells full of sweet honey for your mouth:yum: , and if you ever want to reap a great harvest, there's so much wheat there, your reaping would be day and night, there would be so much to do!

:groupray: Lets pray for all of our christian brothers and sisters, especially in America, who are being hindered by the great material wealth that we pocess, and those in other countries that are being persecuted, that they are comforted and that their faithfulness will reap a great harvest:prayer:


Romans 5:2-4 (New International Version)

2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28035a)] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28036b)] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.

[Cris413]

Here's a thought, Our "way of life" tends to harbor complacency, Whereas I sometimes envy those that are persecuted for Christ, not only do they recieve great rewards in heaven, but the power of the gospel is spread like wild fire, the presence of God is overflowing and suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope. God is right there with them, taking care of them still, I believe that, because I believe in the promises of God.

Have you ever read "The heavenly man"? It sets me on fire! If you ever want to truely experience God, go to one of these countries where there is persecution, and He's there like wells full of sweet honey for your mouth:yum: , and if you ever want to reap a great harvest, there's so much wheat there, your reaping would be day and night, there would be so much to do!

:groupray: Lets pray for all of our christian brothers and sisters, especially in America, who are being hindered by the great material wealth that we pocess, and those in other countries that are being persecuted, that they are comforted and that their faithfulness will reap a great harvest:prayer:


Romans 5:2-4 (New International Version)

2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&c target=_blank><FONT color=#800080>a</FONT></A>] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[<A href=)] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.

This is certainly a thought everyone should consider. I'm not sure I can feel envy for those persecuted for Christ. I'm not sure any of us can truly understand that kind of persecution. I know I can't and yes, because of where I have the privilege to live, there are many horrors that I have been shielded from.

I totally agree there is plenty of complacency in America. The love of money is the root of all evil. There are despicable atrocities committed here every day. We are certainly not exempt from evil practices.

For now the sheep and goat are standing in the same field and my prayer would be to have discernment as to which are which until Jesus comes to make the division. (I really took to heart Twistedsketch's post) :thumbsup: I wouldn't presume to label a sheep a goat. Particulary based on their love of country. (I am not inferring his post was directed at anyone in particular...just that it spoke to my heart).

Are some believers complacent? I would imagine so. The heart of what I have seen in the posts in this thread would support Christians/patriots not accepting complacency.

We can all search out the wrongs in the world and in each other but what's wrong with searching out the blessings as well? I am by no means suggesting we ignore evil.

I see the blessing that we are agreement in this particular post. I'll check out "The Heavenly Man" who is the author?

BTW...several years back I really wanted to go on the 2 year mission trip to Liberia. I don't know why God blocked every advance I made to go. Apparently He had other plans for me or perhaps He felt I didn't have the right heart. I don't know His plan. The point being I don't feel less Christian-like because God did not choose to use me in that way. ;)

And yes, lets pray for all our brothers and sisters close to home and around the world.

[Nadiine]

This is certainly a thought everyone should consider. I'm not sure I can feel envy for those persecuted for Christ. I'm not sure any of us can truly understand that kind of persecution. I know I can't and yes, because of where I have the privilege to live, there are many horrors that I have been shielded from.

I totally agree there is plenty of complacency in America. The love of money is the root of all evil. There are despicable atrocities committed here every day. We are certainly not exempt from evil practices.

For now the sheep and goat are standing in the same field and my prayer would be to have discernment as to which are which until Jesus comes to make the division. (I really took to heart Twistedsketch's post) :thumbsup: I wouldn't presume to label a sheep a goat. Particulary based on their love of country. (I am not inferring his post was directed at anyone in particular...just that it spoke to my heart).

Are some believers complacent? I would imagine so. The heart of what I have seen in the posts in this thread would support Christians/patriots not accepting complacency.

We can all search out the wrongs in the world and in each other but what's wrong with searching out the blessings as well? I am by no means suggesting we ignore evil.

I see the blessing that we are agreement in this particular post. I'll check out "The Heavenly Man" who is the author?

BTW...several years back I really wanted to go on the 2 year mission trip to Liberia. I don't know why God blocked every advance I made to go. Apparently He had other plans for me or perhaps He felt I didn't have the right heart. I don't know His plan. The point being I don't feel less Christian-like because God did not choose to use me in that way. ;)

And yes, lets pray for all our brothers and sisters close to home and around the world.
We can & should unite as AMERICANS.... but I can't & don't unite with those who work to remove GOD from country & stifle Christians or who work against the moral commands of God.

I love ALL people - we are all made in the image of God, so we cannot hate them, but we absolutely ARE called to "hate evil, & cling to that which is good".
We hate EVIL (& all it's forms) - we LOVE the people committing the evil & PRAY :groupray: the Lord work in their hearts that they would turn to LIFE in Christ.

It's not about hating people who are of another political persuation, it's about voting in the lesser of the 2 evils and PRAYING God will work in this country to bring us all to repentance for straying from Him and/or rejecting His mercy & grace He's so richly bestowed on us as a nation.

I'm called to discern a sheep from a goat - but I'm NOT called to condemn them or show hatred or try to harm them. GOD handles all that stuff & we shouldn't WANT them to suffer His wrath.
That's how I view this great political divide. (I truly believe the foundation of this great divide is MORALLY rooted. It's spiritual warfare. imho.

I love this verse - even tho it's about Israel; it still shows the heart of God:

Eze 33:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze033.html#11) Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Mat 23:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

[Cris413]

We can & should unite as AMERICANS.... but I can't & don't unite with those who work to remove GOD from country & stifle Christians or who work against the moral commands of God.

I love ALL people - we are all made in the image of God, so we cannot hate them, but we absolutely ARE called to "hate evil, & cling to that which is good".
We hate EVIL (& all it's forms) - we LOVE the people committing the evil & PRAY :groupray: the Lord work in their hearts that they would turn to LIFE in Christ.

It's not about hating people who are of another political persuation, it's about voting in the lesser of the 2 evils and PRAYING God will work in this country to bring us all to repentance for straying from Him and/or rejecting His mercy & grace He's so richly bestowed on us as a nation.

I'm called to discern a sheep from a goat - but I'm NOT called to condemn them or show hatred or try to harm them. GOD handles all that stuff & we shouldn't WANT them to suffer His wrath.
That's how I view this great political divide. (I truly believe the foundation of this great divide is MORALLY rooted. It's spiritual warfare. imho.

I love this verse - even tho it's about Israel; it still shows the heart of God:

Eze 33:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze033.html#11) Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Mat 23:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


Amen :thumbsup:

[LJSGM]

This is certainly a thought everyone should consider. I'm not sure I can feel envy for those persecuted for Christ. I'm not sure any of us can truly understand that kind of persecution. I know I can't and yes, because of where I have the privilege to live, there are many horrors that I have been shielded from.

I totally agree there is plenty of complacency in America. The love of money is the root of all evil. There are despicable atrocities committed here every day. We are certainly not exempt from evil practices.

For now the sheep and goat are standing in the same field and my prayer would be to have discernment as to which are which until Jesus comes to make the division. (I really took to heart Twistedsketch's post) :thumbsup: I wouldn't presume to label a sheep a goat. Particulary based on their love of country. (I am not inferring his post was directed at anyone in particular...just that it spoke to my heart).

Are some believers complacent? I would imagine so. The heart of what I have seen in the posts in this thread would support Christians/patriots not accepting complacency.

We can all search out the wrongs in the world and in each other but what's wrong with searching out the blessings as well? I am by no means suggesting we ignore evil.

I see the blessing that we are agreement in this particular post. I'll check out "The Heavenly Man" who is the author?

BTW...several years back I really wanted to go on the 2 year mission trip to Liberia. I don't know why God blocked every advance I made to go. Apparently He had other plans for me or perhaps He felt I didn't have the right heart. I don't know His plan. The point being I don't feel less Christian-like because God did not choose to use me in that way. ;)

And yes, lets pray for all our brothers and sisters close to home and around the world.

I don't think we truely know how complacent we really are most of the time. I'm not judging anyone, I think it happens to the best of Christians, to everyone, and I know that it's a constant struggle for me and most everyone who doesn't have to struggle with persecution, the more comfortable I become in material security the less zeal is produced in me, almost as a natural occurance:o . I'm only saying this for edification, and encouragement though. :D

the author of the book is Brother Yun and Paul Hattaway

And you are right, there is A LOT of work to be done in America as well.

For those of you that have the calling and the faith to go, then I encourage you to go!

Going to another country to preach the gospel is like eating vegatables and excerising, stay in your own country is comfortable and it's like eating hambergers and ice cream all the time, you have to work harder to stay fit, hehe :P

As far as patriotism, I think it's causing more harm then people know. It supports killing people for this worldly government for one, which is the biggest offense, of course the government doesn't want you to know that, what would happen to it's army?

Then I will bring up the king Saul because God was disappointed in His people for choosing a human king over the almightly God, because they had no faith in God's almightly power and ability to lead them? Was it... FEAR??? Just like we put so much faith and hope in our government to protect us, but where is the faith that God will protect us as he promises and he will be our king? God bless

[gee]

What happened to America (page 4)...

http://www.christianforums.com/t1165427-what-happened-2-america.html&page=4

[Cris413]

I don't think we truely know how complacent we really are most of the time. I'm not judging anyone, I think it happens to the best of Christians, to everyone, and I know that it's a constant struggle for me and most everyone who doesn't have to struggle with persecution, the more comfortable I become in material security the less zeal is produced in me, almost as a natural occurance:o . I'm only saying this for edification, and encouragement though. :D

the author of the book is Brother Yun and Paul Hattaway

And you are right, there is A LOT of work to be done in America as well.

For those of you that have the calling and the faith to go, then I encourage you to go!

Going to another country to preach the gospel is like eating vegatables and excerising, stay in your own country is comfortable and it's like eating hambergers and ice cream all the time, you have to work harder to stay fit, hehe :P

As far as patriotism, I think it's causing more harm then people know. It supports killing people for this worldly government for one, which is the biggest offense, of course the government doesn't want you to know that, what would happen to it's army?

Then I will bring up the king Saul because God was disappointed in His people for choosing a human king over the almightly God, because they had no faith in God's almightly power and ability to lead them? Was it... FEAR??? Just like we put so much faith and hope in our government to protect us, but where is the faith that God will protect us as he promises and he will be our king? God bless
I can see your analogy. I think it may be generalizing though. Living most of my adult life in SE Florida. I’ve had the opportunity to meet people from a lot of different cultures, lifestyles and backgrounds. There are people that are good stewards with much and bad stewards with little and visa versa.

I personally believe that God blesses each of us with what we can handle. We are called to be good stewards of the things God gives us. None of us really “own” anything. It’s all on loan from God. What He gives He can also take away. I firmly believe if we ever start being bad stewards with the things God has given us…he will take them away. He is more concerned with our spiritual well-being than He is with our material well-being.

The United States will be under God’s righteous judgment just as the rest of the world. And I believe in perfect proportion.

It’s real easy to call on God when that’s all we have left. It’s quite another thing to keep our eyes on Him when we’re blessed with abundance. So looking at it from that perspective…there is a huge amount of spiritual gain when we’re good stewards with what God has given us.

Yes Saul is a good example. The people called for a king. Samuel anointed Saul as the first king but when Saul no longer honored God… God removed him. Then Samuel chose David not because of his leadership ability but because David persistently turned to God for direction. And isn’t that what we do as Christians; place our vote for the candidate we feel best supports God’s laws? Sometimes…or perhaps most of the time….as Nadiine has pointed out, it may not be for who is the best but the lesser of 2 evils.

God did not abolish kingdoms or armies but the kings and armies not of God do not stand. Again going back to my heart of being a good steward of what God has blessed me with and not supporting politicians or civics that do not support God.

We can have the best military in world…and we do…but my faith is not in our military might but in God’s hand of protection. The Bible is filled with stories of God leading armies for His purpose.

God bless

[LJSGM]

Hebrews 11

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-30194f)]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[gee]

We can have the best military in world…and we do…

Not everyone would agree... One of the most powerful - yes, probably. The most money spent on... Definitely (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig-military-expenditures-dollar-figure)... and a terrible figure far above the rest of the world. US citizens confidence in : 5th place (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_con_in_soc_ins_arm_for-confidence-social-institutions-armed-forces).


The Bible is filled with stories of God leading armies for His purpose.

So, are you saying that the US military is carrying out God's purpose on the earth?

[cherokeehippie]

Another thing, is, I really believe that our gov. made a deal with fallen angels for 'advance technology', just as in the days of Noah when fallen angels taught man how to make weapons, and the occult arts, etc as well as Gen 6:4 went into human women and produced the nephilim. Our gov. gave fallen angels permission to 'abduct' americans and do what they want on us. Our gov. is also working side by side with them in underground bases such as Dulce, area, even participating in these experiements. A lot of the money goes towards these black ops, secret military stuff. I was watching a UFO documentary one time and an ex navy guy was there watching it along with me and it was about native people in Brazil being abducted and having these marks on their skin afterwards. He immediately recognized it and said it was from a type of stun gun the military have.

[Cris413]

Not everyone would agree... One of the most powerful - yes, probably. The most money spent on... Definitely (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig-military-expenditures-dollar-figure)... and a terrible figure far above the rest of the world. US citizens confidence in : 5th place (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_con_in_soc_ins_arm_for-confidence-social-institutions-armed-forces).?

LOL of course not everyone would agree. Did you read my post in the context it was written or just pick and choose what you wanted to comment on?




So, are you saying that the US military is carrying out God's purpose on the earth?
Is that what I said? Who am I to presume I know God's purpose? Had I been trying to say the US military is carrying out God's purpose...I would have said "I believe the US Military is carrying out God's purpose" which I did not. ;)

What I will say is that I believe God will not permit anything not of His will forever. Including the US Military. Again...going back to the importance of keeping God in our country.

I also said The United States will be under God’s righteous judgment just as the rest of the world. And I believe in perfect proportion.

:prayer:

God bless

[cherokeehippie]

There are sinister forces in parts of our gov. I know. My grandfather worked at White Sands Missle range as security during the race to get to the moon in the 1960's and my dad, who was in the military, was murdered. The murder was made to look like an accident and the old man who killed my dad, who died a few years later, was listed as being a lietinet(arrggh, can spell the word!) in the army and was buried at Fort Bliss.

[LJSGM]

2 Corinthians 10

1By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

Ephesians 6:11-13 (New International Version)


11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.


Matthew 26:50-52 (New International Version)




50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-24102a)]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" 55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.

It amazes me how indoctrinated some christians are in the this country that they will go against very the word of God to justify themselves. Or is it ignorance, do they just not know that the bible speaks against killing? in the name of a worldly government at that, even if the government tells you it's for a Godly cause?

[gee]

LOL of course not everyone would agree. Did you read my post in the context it was written or just pick and choose what you wanted to comment on?

You last sentence... in fact a few sentences were a little ambiguous... as are some in this last post!


What I will say is that I believe God will not permit anything not of His will forever. Including the US Military. Again...going back to the importance of keeping God in our country.

So, are you saying then that out of the lesser of 2 evils (from your first post) that the currently leadership is Godly, and so "keeping God in our country" and therefore "doing God's will"? Many nations and empires have ruled... and without God too! So does the US's current position in the world mean it is Godly?

God bless...

[Bobber]

American democracy and repubic is a 'farce' and a myth. America was never a christian nation.


I don't know if you can claim that American democracy is a myth, I guess it all depends on how you define democracy, but I do agree with you there has never been a Christians nation.....never.......for there to be a Christian nation would have to mean every single person in the nation was a genuine Christian, in proper fellowship with the Lord....recall that Jesus stated many would say even to him Lord, Lord, even thinking they were Christian and were not....one sad delusion I see is an idea if we can make culture more moralistic [no abortion, ban booze, ban filhty things on TV]

suddenly in the minds of some we would be more Christian.....and some might eve think that would make them a Christian nation.....not so just as many people who die not having receivced eternal life in Jesus would go to hell gust as much as in a moralistic society. The regeneration of the human spirit, causing people to become Born Again should be the first primary goal and nothing else, if were talking about that which makes one a Christian....Thankyou For Your Time If You Read This Post And Have A Nice Day :)

[Cris413]

Hebrews 11

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-30194f)]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Amen sister :thumbsup:

I think it has been repeatedly mentioned that no one is to put love/honor for their country above love and honor for the Kingdom.

I hope you did not read my post as an example of trying to disprove this scripture. That certainly was not my intent.

I firmly and faithfully believe this scripture as I do all scripture. There will be great reward for those persecuted for the sake of Christ. Not only in heaven but here on earth as well as we have great spiritual gain through persecution for the sake of the Cross.

All in Christ will be subject to worldly persecution at some time and in some form. Praise God as Paul reminds us we are to rejoice in our persecution. Be it something as simple as being accused of being a Jesus freak with an antiquated belief system that sets our society back a couple thousand years or as harsh as losing one's head for the sake of the cross.

What I'm saying is not all worldly persecution(poverty, oppression, tyrany and such) leads to Christ. As well as not all abundance leads to lack of spirituality. Lets not generalize that all Americans are fat, happy, lazy and spirtually bankrupt due to abundance..but see each believer according to his/her place in God's perfect plan.

Worldly suffering does not lead to Kingdom reward unless you are in Christ and suffering for the Cross.

There is distinction between suffering for the Cross and suffering because we're bad stewards with what God has given us. Or suffering because of living in a Godless country and yet refusing to turn to God.

I may be opening a huge can of worms here but I feel led to use the example of the Iraqi people. How many suffered and were persecuted under the regime of Saddam Hussien? How many of these people will be rewarded for their persecution if they continue to look toward Islam and not toward the God of Abraham and salvation in Christ Jesus? The real tragedy here is all that suffering would be in vain. The blessing would be souls coming to Christ in the midst of it.

Evangelism is SO important. But we know not everyone will turn to God. It is heartbreaking but true. The whole world will have the gospel eventually. But until the whole world hears, here we stay with the objective to be useful vessels of God to be His feet and hands on a local level or worldwide level as He calls us for His purpose.

Am I to focus that my blessing will be less because so far in my life I have not suffered great persecution? Or that I am not a great evangelist such as Billy Graham?

No, each of us in Christ will be rewarded according to our works. Works that God has called us to preform. The value of our blessing is in measure of our obedience to God not in the measure of our works alone.

Do I envy those who are greatly blessed for their persecution for the sake of the Cross or for their great evangelism? A resounding NO! I rejoice in their blessing.

Again each of us are blessed in measure of obedience to God according to His good will and purpose.

God bless

[Cris413]

2 Corinthians 10

1By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

Ephesians 6:11-13 (New International Version)


11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.


Matthew 26:50-52 (New International Version)




50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-24102a)]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" 55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.

It amazes me how indoctrinated some christians are in the this country that they will go against very the word of God to justify themselves. Or is it ignorance, do they just not know that the bible speaks against killing? in the name of a worldly government at that, even if the government tells you it's for a Godly cause?
Sister, is it up to us to abolish all the armies and governments? No. That would be God's job. And His word tells us He will do it and establish His kingdom here. I think this is wonderful scripture that reminds us God is in control.

:amen:

[Cris413]

You last sentence... in fact a few sentences were a little ambiguous... as are some in this last post!




So, are you saying then that out of the lesser of 2 evils (from your first post) that the currently leadership is Godly, and so "keeping God in our country" and therefore "doing God's will"? Many nations and empires have ruled... and without God too! So does the US's current position in the world mean it is Godly?

God bless...
Dear brother, why read more into what was said than was actually said. As for ambiguity I am of a mind that by intelligent and spiritual understanding some things are just "a given" It would take pages and pages of post to fully add every aspect of one's thoughts or understanding.

By the lesser of 2 evils I am saying I chose not to vote for the candidate that proclaimed a platform to support issues directly opposed to God.

Again, who am I to determine the will of God and His purpose. I am but a mere human being. All I can do is prayerfully seek discernment of the Holy Spirit and do the best I can when faced with the things of this world. We are not of the world but we are still in the world. Always keeping the focus on God and to be obedient to His word. I do not question God. I do not presume to know what is in the heart of our President. That's between him and God. I do know that our President is part of the plan as is each and everyone of us. Now the significance of that part only God knows.

Sometimes the plan is obvious in great evangelists and such as the fruit is in souls won to Christ. Sometimes in human understanding it's questionable as in men of great affluence or influence in the form of false witnesses. Again, God knows the difference and sometimes we are blessed with that discernment as well.

Did I vote for George Bush because I prayerful felt he was a Godly man? Yes, I did. Will I ever know if my vote was misplaced based on that belief... only as God reveals it to me. I would rather place my vote for a profession of God's precepts than for a profession against God's precepts.

If I placed my vote incorrectly. I have no doubt God will hold me accountable. Just as he will hold each of us accountable...including our President. Every knee shall bow...

Which brings me to praise God for His grace and mercy there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

God bless

[Cris413]

In reading through this thread. I commented to gee regarding reading things into what has actually been said. I prayed about it and God has placed on my heart that I may have done exactly that.

If I have... my sincere apologies if I misinterpreted anyone's intent.

I do believe what I've stated in my posts, I've reread them and have not felt led to edit or remove them ..but I am concerned that I may have been so focused on my own thoughts that missed the heart of certain posts and I welcome any correction.

After all regardless of personal opinion, our politics, nationality or place in our walks or our level of faith. It is all about bringing glory and honor to God, being effective witnesses, edification and growing in the Spirit.

God bless

[gee]

Cris

I hope I haven't caused you any offense. You haven't to me and I can see you aren't trying to.

What upsets me most on the board is reading so many posts of people just saying that with the US military might, we should just go into other nations and nuke them. Even when we have brothers and sisters living in those places. Any of us could have been born into a family in one of those places... I'm sure we'd be so happy to learn that some Americans were talking about blowing us, our family and country up. I do think that prayer is our weapon. Bombs and missiles do not destroy the real reason behind war... which is spiritual. We do not fight with carnal weapons. The trouble is that many/most people in the church rely on military might, and do not pray. And so countries go to war... for whatever reason...

But I also agree with you... There is no authority on earth which God has not allowed. We are to pray for our own leaders, even if they don't do everthing in a Godly way. Even though the Bible says that many will come in His Name (but are not).

We are to pray "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven".... God uses both the Godly and the unGodly to fulfil His plans and purposes. And we are also to make the most of every opportunity.

God bless

[salida]

Well Cris -

The comment of "separation of church and state" is misquoted today. The intent of it originally was when our founding fathers was around - not when Ms. Pelosi or/and Harry Reid existed. The original intent was that to keep the government out of the church.

How did this separation get distorted? This separation isn't in the U.S. Constitution or The Billl of Rights or any other legal document.

The liberal media twisted a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote concerning this separation of keeping the government out of the church. But the liberal media used their media power to brainwash us into thinking that we should keep the church out of the goverment.

In modern law, the liberal judges of today have tried to rewrite the First Amendment using the "separation of church and state" jargon. And therefore, to separate God, moral values and christian principles from the state. Judges arn't suppose to legislate from the bench and our Congress needs to write laws to hold them accountable. They are suppose to interpret the law from its original intent. Since this doesn't agree with their personal morals they are rebelling.

Christ said to be the light of the world - not just in the 4 corners of your house.

[gee]

You cannot quote the constitution or bill of rights unless you keep to it yourself...

The US was never set up as a Christian country. It was for freedom of religion. That does not necessarily mean the Christian religion. This allows freedom of any religion - and yet you stand for those rights... as long as it is the Christian religion and no other.

I'm not saying I like other religions - I am of course Christian... but you yourself are unconstitutional in not allowing that "freedom".

[seekthetruth909]

2 Corinthians 10

1By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

Ephesians 6:11-13 (New International Version)


11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.


Matthew 26:50-52 (New International Version)




50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-24102a)]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" 55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.

It amazes me how indoctrinated some christians are in the this country that they will go against very the word of God to justify themselves. Or is it ignorance, do they just not know that the bible speaks against killing? in the name of a worldly government at that, even if the government tells you it's for a Godly cause?

Some good scriptures to illustrate your point!
Here are a few more scriptures to add:

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages....Luke 3:14,


Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

Instead of an “eye for an eye,” Jesus said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” —Matthew 5:38,44

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. Luke 6:27

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” —Matthew 5:9


The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8

[ Love one another ] This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 1 John 3:11


Seek

[seekthetruth909]

Loving your country above God is wrong. Loving your country above your neighbor is wrong. Who are your neighbors in a global community? Will there be different countries in heaven?

Dying for a flag is wrong. It is better to die to protect the weak and innocent regardless of which country they belong to. Allegiance to the flag should be replaced with to allegiance to God and all our brothers and sisters in the entire world.

America does represent some excellent ideals. Along with France it was one of the first countries in the world to embrace democracy and many rights and freedoms. This also included the right to live in peace and practice the religion we choose. I believe fighting in self-defense to protect these ideals and rights may be just, but if we choose to fight to protect these rights, it should apply to everyone in the world not just Americans. This is the difference between being a patriot and being a true Christian. We put others above ourselves and are willing to sacrifice ourselves to protect the weak and innocent regardless of the color of their skin or their nationality .The only flag we should raise is the flag of Christianity

God bless and have a good day.

Philippians 2:3 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves."

[twistedsketch]

Loving your country above God is wrong. Loving your country above your neighbor is wrong.
Since when have Christian patriots been known to do such things? You cannot prove that. I would think most Christian patriots love God more than they love America, and they certainly don't love their country more than their neighbors.


Dying for a flag is wrong. It is better to die to protect the weak and innocent regardless of which country they belong to.
I don't recall anywhere in Scripture that says dying for a flag is wrong. After all, the flag is a symbol of a nation and all the people in it. Many soldiers are fighting and dying for the people back home, to preserve their liberty and safety.


I believe fighting in self-defense to protect these ideals and rights may be just, but if we choose to fight to protect these rights, it should apply to everyone in the world not just Americans. This is the difference between being a patriot and being a true Christian.
However, fighting for another country will not make that country strong. More importantly, there simply are not enough resources for any one country to do this for every other country. The US tries, and we honestly don't do very well.

[BustedFlat]

Some good scriptures to illustrate your point!
Here are a few more scriptures to add:

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages....Luke 3:14,




I would caution you to be careful in the translation of the words of John to the solider:


And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
King James Version 1611, 1769 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#kjv)

Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nkjv)

"What should we do?" asked some soldiers. John replied, "Don't extort money, and don't accuse people of things you know they didn't do. And be content with your pay."
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nlt)

Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#niv)

Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#esv)
...
The point being that John never told him to stop being a solider. He just told him to do his job with honor.


In Jesus


BustedFlat

[Nadiine]

I would caution you to be careful in the translation of the words of John to the solider:


And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
King James Version 1611, 1769 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#kjv)

Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nkjv)

"What should we do?" asked some soldiers. John replied, "Don't extort money, and don't accuse people of things you know they didn't do. And be content with your pay."
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nlt)

Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#niv)

Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#esv)
...
The point being that John never told him to stop being a solider. He just told him to do his job with honor.

In Jesus
BustedFlat
Interesting -- I'd also note, "doing violence" does NOT mean you cannot protect yourself or your country!

"doing violence" to someone is harming them for a wrongful cause - this isn't WARTIME. God sent Israel off to war numerous time to clear out the pagans before them; and also told them to wipe out the women & children along the way as well.
So.... let's be realistic here with what God may mean by "do no violence".

One other tidbit MOST forget & leave out:
Luk 22:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

[Nadiine]

Loving your country above God is wrong. Loving your country above your neighbor is wrong. Who are your neighbors in a global community? Will there be different countries in heaven?

Can I ask why love of country is always "above" God? As if you can't love anything or anyone else & it becomes idolatry?

People don't die for a flag; they die for the PEOPLE of their country and the place they have to live in.


Dying for a flag is wrong. It is better to die to protect the weak and innocent regardless of which country they belong to. Allegiance to the flag should be replaced with to allegiance to God and all our brothers and sisters in the entire world.

God put us here in this country; as He put the Israelites in their country - God LOVES ISRAEL - the land and the people.
American doesn't go to war often, we've helped many other countries militarily - and if we didn't protect ourselves (even if offensively if necessary) we wouldn't have a country with any ideals, it would be overtaken by others.

I think keeping everything in it's perspective is important. Christians can love God and country. We rely on God fully. :wave:

[Cris413]

Cris

I hope I haven't caused you any offense. You haven't to me and I can see you aren't trying to.

What upsets me most on the board is reading so many posts of people just saying that with the US military might, we should just go into other nations and nuke them. Even when we have brothers and sisters living in those places. Any of us could have been born into a family in one of those places... I'm sure we'd be so happy to learn that some Americans were talking about blowing us, our family and country up. I do think that prayer is our weapon. Bombs and missiles do not destroy the real reason behind war... which is spiritual. We do not fight with carnal weapons. The trouble is that many/most people in the church rely on military might, and do not pray. And so countries go to war... for whatever reason...

But I also agree with you... There is no authority on earth which God has not allowed. We are to pray for our own leaders, even if they don't do everthing in a Godly way. Even though the Bible says that many will come in His Name (but are not).

We are to pray "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven".... God uses both the Godly and the unGodly to fulfil His plans and purposes. And we are also to make the most of every opportunity.

God bless

No offense taken. Yes Your Kingdom come Lord...and soon.

God bless

[Cris413]

Well Cris -

The comment of "separation of church and state" is misquoted today. The intent of it originally was when our founding fathers was around - not when Ms. Pelosi or/and Harry Reid existed. The original intent was that to keep the government out of the church.

How did this separation get distorted? This separation isn't in the U.S. Constitution or The Billl of Rights or any other legal document.

The liberal media twisted a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote concerning this separation of keeping the government out of the church. But the liberal media used their media power to brainwash us into thinking that we should keep the church out of the goverment.

In modern law, the liberal judges of today have tried to rewrite the First Amendment using the "separation of church and state" jargon. And therefore, to separate God, moral values and christian principles from the state. Judges arn't suppose to legislate from the bench and our Congress needs to write laws to hold them accountable. They are suppose to interpret the law from its original intent. Since this doesn't agree with their personal morals they are rebelling.

Christ said to be the light of the world - not just in the 4 corners of your house.

:thumbsup: :amen:

[cherokeehippie]

Check this out.
http://www.pidradio.com/

Click on the " P.I.D. Radio 2/25/07: Angels in the Euphrates" program.
P.I.D. Radio 2/25/07: Angels in the Euphrates

[VCViking]

Imo, separating church from state is ultimately impossible since morality has to be legislated to a degree in any society.

Take marriage - who governs who can marry? That's a MORAL issue, so how do you keep the spiritual/religion OUT of govt.?
Don't we think Christians should be in the voting booth's on at LEAST moral issues?
How can you be against gay marriage (or polygamy etc), yet refuse to VOTE AGAINST IT ! Imo, that's just plain irresponsible as a Christian.

Would we bother to vote against abortion? Or is that being too involved to stop the murder of millions of helpless infants? Refusing to vote against something is ultimately allowing it to continue, isn't it?
Yet, these same "christians" sit by complaining about society! :doh:

Patriotism - I think that's one of those Christian liberties; some people think it's evil & some sort of 'betrayal' of God. I'm patriotic - just like the Israelites were when they carried their banners around & fought for their people. Your country is basically YOUR PEOPLE within it!
I don't grasp how it's viewed any other way.

Ultimately, in other cultures in past times, Christians had NO POWER (voting rights - or living under dictators/Kings) and were heavily persecuted under those rulers... it baffles me why Christians WITH VOTING POWER sit on their hands & refuse to vote for at LEAST a "lesser evil" than another canditate!

If a majority of Christian conservatives were voted into power (incl. judicial branches), perhaps morality wouldn't be so low today? Perhaps GOD wouldn't be taken out of the school, or 10 commandments taken off of city buildings, etc. Perhaps a military pastor who prays in JESUS name, wouldn't be ejected from duty!!

THIS IS THE BATTLE RIGHT NOW. Removal of GOD from govt. Any Christian idly sitting by & watching it happen should think about possible apathy issues.
If not US, then who?? Who else has God enlisted as soldiers in His army? We are HIS hands & feet down here, signed up for duty.

No, instead, they'de like to just by & complain about everything & everyone & how terrible it's getting...
If you want to see it continue, just continue sitting on the sidelines & complaining. :sleep: :yawn: :sleep: :yawn: :swoon:


Once again :amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:

[seekthetruth909]

I would caution you to be careful in the translation of the words of John to the solider:


And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
King James Version 1611, 1769 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#kjv)

Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nkjv)

"What should we do?" asked some soldiers. John replied, "Don't extort money, and don't accuse people of things you know they didn't do. And be content with your pay."
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#nlt)

Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#niv)

Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles (http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#esv)
...
The point being that John never told him to stop being a solider. He just told him to do his job with honor.


In Jesus


BustedFlat
Good point! But that would be a whole other debate on whether the King James translation is inferior.

Seek

[seekthetruth909]

Originally Posted by seekthetruth909
Loving your country above God is wrong. Loving your country above your neighbor is wrong.


Twistedsketch: Since when have Christian patriots been known to do such things? You cannot prove that. I would think most Christian patriots love God more than they love America, and they certainly don't love their country more than their neighbors.


Thank you for your reply.
I never accused anyone directly of doing that, but you must admit to the possibility that some have probably done so in the past. We should always be on guard from temptation and pride, which could cause us to compromise our Christian values in the name of patriotism.





Originally Posted by seekthetruth909
Dying for a flag is wrong. It is better to die to protect the weak and innocent regardless of which country they belong to.
I don't recall anywhere in Scripture that says dying for a flag is wrong. After all, the flag is a symbol of a nation and all the people in it. Many soldiers are fighting and dying for the people back home, to preserve their liberty and safety.



No there is no specific scripture stating that dying for a flag is wrong, but I could quote countless scripture to prove that the people away from home our just as important to God as the people back home.
If you wish to preserve liberty it should be for all your brothers and sisters in the world.





Originally Posted by seekthetruth909
I believe fighting in self-defense to protect these ideals and rights may be just, but if we choose to fight to protect these rights, it should apply to everyone in the world not just Americans. This is the difference between being a patriot and being a true Christian.

However, fighting for another country will not make that country strong. More importantly, there simply are not enough resources for any one country to do this for every other country. The US tries, and we honestly don't do very well.





True, but if we wish to display the spirit of Christianity we should not be self-serving and only care about our home. Picking and choosing to only fight for only our self interest, for example like third world country oil supplies, is not the Christian way. We can’t have it both ways, either we take a pacifist, turn the other cheek view, or we fight to preserve freedom and liberty in every corner of the earth.

No one answered my previous questions.
Are there separate countries in heaven?
Was Jesus a patriot?
Did He only love Israel?
Were the apostles patriots?
Did they risk their lives only for the people of Israel?
Did they die for a worldly kingdom or a heavenly Kingdom?

God Bless
Seek

Matthew 28:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=28&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 11:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=11&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: " 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'

Acts 10:34-36

34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

[seekthetruth909]

Interesting -- I'd also note, "doing violence" does NOT mean you cannot protect yourself or your country!

"doing violence" to someone is harming them for a wrongful cause - this isn't WARTIME. God sent Israel off to war numerous time to clear out the pagans before them; and also told them to wipe out the women & children along the way as well.
So.... let's be realistic here with what God may mean by "do no violence".

One other tidbit MOST forget & leave out:
Luk 22:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take , and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Thank you for your reply Nadine. Although I don't always agree with you on every issue I appreciate your zeal for the knowledge of God.
I haven't quite resolved my understanding on this issue.My personal belief is that military action is justified in self defense. I struggle to accept a pacifist, turn the other cheek view but I have to admit the biblical evidence is strong for those who support this view.

On the pro military side we have this one new testament scripture that other people have quoted in the past:
Luk 22:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take , and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.[/


On the pacifist side there seems to be numerous new testament sciptures to quote.
[I]
Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

[I]“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” —Matthew 5:9



Instead of an “eye for an eye,” Jesus said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” —Matthew 5:38,44


If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? Matthew 5:46

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. Luke 6:27

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Philippians 2:3 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves."

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8

[ Love one another ] This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 1 John 3:11

“Do not repay anyone evil for evil . . . Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath.” —Romans 12:17,19


Luke 3:14, And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages....

2 Corinthians 10

1By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.

Ephesians 6:11-13
11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Matthew 26:50-52
50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=50&end_verse=52&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-24102a)]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.


Could someone please provide more new testament scripture to support the pro military action side?


Thank you and God Bless

Seek

[Nadiine]

Thank you for your reply Nadine. Although I don't always agree with you on every issue I appreciate your zeal for the knowledge of God.
Thanks, I do understand that people don't agree w/ me on everything & I'm very OK with that ;)
I never claim to know it all or be right about absolutely everything...


I haven't quite resolved my understanding on this issue.My personal belief is that military action is justified in self defense. I struggle to accept a pacifist, turn the other cheek view but I have to admit the biblical evidence is strong for those who support this view.

I think we leave out one very key factor in our understanding of military as to the time Jesus came & the culture of Israel then.

K, what was Israel LOOKING FOR in their Messiah? They rejected Jesus BECUZ HE WAS PASSIVE (militarily/physically -- He was not passive spiritually by any stretch and He was not a pasivist).

The Jews were looking for a KING that would come down in wrath & judgment to wipe out their enemy & establish an earthly kingdom where they were rescued.
Instead, Jesus came to fulfill the OT Law & sacrifice Himself unto death!
They expected military might & physical valor & got a Hush Puppy instead. Their ideal of the Messiah was WRONG.

So is it any wonder Jesus isn't promoting military & might to them?? It's not that Jesus was AGAINST IT, it's that at that time, that isn't what He came for & knew they were expecting that of Him.
They didn't understand [the method of] His mission (sadly).
This imo, is why Jesus isn't pushing the physical, but the Spiritual; to get them to see what the REAL mission was. He was trying to PROVE HE WAS THE MESSIAH & they weren't accepting Him as such.


On the pro military side we have this one new testament scripture that other people have quoted in the past:
Luk 22:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take , and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.[/


On the pacifist side there seems to be numerous new testament sciptures to quote.

Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

I think the list of verses don't make the case in many ways.
You CAN be a peacemaker, yet have to use force. JESUS was a peacemaker, yet made a whip of cords to use when He physically forced the money changers off the temple grounds; turning over tables in anger.
THAT isn't passivism! He MADE A WHIP. (why do so many ignore that?).

It's not that God is not FOR military - He also isn't against it! It's a neutral issue - based upon principle of what the military is used for. Like a gun - a gun can protect your life, or wrongly take life of another.
It's neutral.
EVERY country MUST have a military or else you have no country to live in, enemies WILL sieze it if you refuse to protect yourself.

The difference is in Jesus' Mission - He came TO DIE & give His life as a ransom... that is NOT our mission with men today. That's why when Jesus left, He left them with a sword to protect themselves.
HE took care of them when He was with them (John 17 says this directly).
So upon His exit, HE TELLS THEM, GET A WEAPON.

Jesus Himself (Redeemer) is called "LORD OF HOSTS" / YHVH of ARMIES (Is. 44:6, 45:13, 47:4)
Hebrew: tsaba'=

1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host
a) army, host
1) host (of organised army)
2) host (of angels)
3) of sun, moon, and stars
4) of whole creation
b) war, warfare, service, go out to war c) service


Granted, even as God's "soldiers" (which we are), we aren't called to go out & attack people & FORCE them into salvation... or go & brutally take over people & their land/posessions.
But I don't at all see how the 'passive' verses don't allow ANY military use? or are "anti" military? Not when God Himself had Israel fight & take over pagans (incl. women & children) to enter the promise land He gave them. :scratch:
It just doesn't sound consistent with God's character.
We can't rule out God's OT character as if 'now it's wrong' to use any force whatsoever... That to me is a REAL stretch.

& as I read these 'passive' verses, I can twist them to mean ANY force whatsoever! As in...... I can't even use any force to protect myself OR my loved ones.
I'm a sitting duck. That isn't consistent with Jesus telling His men to sell their clothing & buy a sword with it... the sword wasn't exactly a collector's piece to hang on a mantle...


[I]“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” —Matthew 5:9


K, and here - peacemaker... isn't it true that you cannot make peace with those who utterly refuse it?
A military person isn't "not" a peacemaker... THEY'RE MAKING PEACE BY FIGHTING THE UNPEACEFUL. Those who abuse others.
This verse can be viewed both ways too. You cannot HAVE peace if you have ruthless barbarians overtaking peaceful societies to t