SDAs & Formers - W. Miller's 15 "PROOFS" for Oct. 22, 1844 [Archive]

View Full Version : SDAs & Formers - W. Miller's 15 "PROOFS" for Oct. 22, 1844

freeindeed2

22nd February 2007, 05:23 PM

How many of you have ever read William Miller's 15 proofs for arriving at the October 22, 1844 date for Christ's second coming? Of course you know that they first pointed to 1843, and then the Spring of 1844, which both came and went before coming up with the Oct. 22, 1844 date.

We all know that Jesus did NOT come back on that day, but the next day (Oct. 23, 1844) Hiram Edson had a vision confirming that the dates were still valid but for an event that supposedly took place in heaven the day before. It wasn't long and EGW had her own vision confirming the only vision Edson ever had. She then wrote that God had 'shown' her that he had directed Miller to all of his conclusions, that he had shown Miller the correct interpretation of prophecy, and that it was a "perfect chain of biblical truth" that was given to him.

I would like for this thread to be a presentation and discussion of the 15 proofs that God supposedly gave to William Miller. I would like to reconstruct them here so that we can analyze if they should stand as Ellen White says they should.

And, just so that everyone is clear, I want to take an honest look at these 15 proofs or "perfect chain of biblical truth" because they are the very foundation for the Investigative Judgment, the ONLY unique doctrine to Seventh-day Adventism. The bottom line is do Miller's proofs stand up to scrutiny? Are they the truth?

This will NOT be a discussion about the Investigative Judgement doctrine. It will ONLY be a discussion about William Miller's 15 proofs, the very foundation of the IJ. If you want to discuss the IJ without taking an honest look at its foundation, start your own thread.

So, if anyone has those original 15 proofs please post them with the proof number in the title line (i.e. Proof #1, Proof #2, etc.). Discussion can follow each one. Please read the proofs before responding.;)

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

OntheDL

23rd February 2007, 12:52 PM

How many of you have ever read William Miller's 15 proofs for arriving at the October 22, 1844 date for Christ's second coming? Of course you know that they first pointed to 1843, and then the Spring of 1844, which both came and went before coming up with the Oct. 22, 1844 date.

We all know that Jesus did NOT come back on that day, but the next day (Oct. 23, 1844) Hiram Edson had a vision confirming that the dates were still valid but for an event that supposedly took place in heaven the day before. It wasn't long and EGW had her own vision confirming the only vision Edson ever had. She then wrote that God had 'shown' her that he had directed Miller to all of his conclusions, that he had shown Miller the correct interpretation of prophecy, and that it was a "perfect chain of biblical truth" that was given to him.

I would like for this thread to be a presentation and discussion of the 15 proofs that God supposedly gave to William Miller. I would like to reconstruct them here so that we can analyze if they should stand as Ellen White says they should.

And, just so that everyone is clear, I want to take an honest look at these 15 proofs or "perfect chain of biblical truth" because they are the very foundation for the Investigative Judgment, the ONLY unique doctrine to Seventh-day Adventism. The bottom line is do Miller's proofs stand up to scrutiny? Are they the truth?

This will NOT be a discussion about the Investigative Judgement doctrine. It will ONLY be a discussion about William Miller's 15 proofs, the very foundation of the IJ. If you want to discuss the IJ without taking an honest look at its foundation, start your own thread.

So, if anyone has those original 15 proofs please post them with the proof number in the title line (i.e. Proof #1, Proof #2, etc.). Discussion can follow each one. Please read the proofs before responding.;)

I think this is your own misunderstanding. The dating is a key issue, but not the very foundation of the IJ. The foundation of Investigative Judgment is the sanctuary doctrine. The dating is less than a secondary importance, a supporting role.

Furthermore, the previous dating of 1843 was a failed calculation because there was no year zero. And I don't think they ever dated to the spring because the whole IJ was the antitypical application of the fall harvest feast. I'd like to see an original quote from W Miller that dated it to the spring time.

tall73

23rd February 2007, 01:13 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Millerite_1843_chart.jpg

OntheDL

23rd February 2007, 03:25 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Millerite_1843_chart.jpg

Is there a bigger version of this picture? I didn't know the millerites held a historic view on the trumpets.

tall73

23rd February 2007, 05:09 PM

Actually it is fairly large but your browser may not display it as such. Try copying and pasting into paint or photoshop. Then you can zoom in too.

Also, some browsers can zoom.

Jimlarmore

23rd February 2007, 06:07 PM

freeindeed2

23rd February 2007, 07:00 PM

OntheDL

23rd February 2007, 07:09 PM

freeindeed2

24th February 2007, 02:43 AM

If you don't know already, you'd be surprised to know that most SDA colleges have been teach NLP (a form of hypnotism) to the students, young pastors. No wonder they are so confused.
Help me out here. What is NLP? I also have a degree in Psychology and I'm either drawing a blank or it's really late...

Can you provide evidence that this is a form of hypnotism that is used on students in SDA schools studying to be pastors? Or is this just a theory of yours?

Eila

24th February 2007, 02:46 AM

How many of you have ever read William Miller's 15 proofs for arriving at the October 22, 1844 date for Christ's second coming? Of course you know that they first pointed to 1843, and then the Spring of 1844, which both came and went before coming up with the Oct. 22, 1844 date.

We all know that Jesus did NOT come back on that day, but the next day (Oct. 23, 1844) Hiram Edson had a vision confirming that the dates were still valid but for an event that supposedly took place in heaven the day before. It wasn't long and EGW had her own vision confirming the only vision Edson ever had. She then wrote that God had 'shown' her that he had directed Miller to all of his conclusions, that he had shown Miller the correct interpretation of prophecy, and that it was a "perfect chain of biblical truth" that was given to him.

I would like for this thread to be a presentation and discussion of the 15 proofs that God supposedly gave to William Miller. I would like to reconstruct them here so that we can analyze if they should stand as Ellen White says they should.

And, just so that everyone is clear, I want to take an honest look at these 15 proofs or "perfect chain of biblical truth" because they are the very foundation for the Investigative Judgment, the ONLY unique doctrine to Seventh-day Adventism. The bottom line is do Miller's proofs stand up to scrutiny? Are they the truth?

This will NOT be a discussion about the Investigative Judgement doctrine. It will ONLY be a discussion about William Miller's 15 proofs, the very foundation of the IJ. If you want to discuss the IJ without taking an honest look at its foundation, start your own thread.

So, if anyone has those original 15 proofs please post them with the proof number in the title line (i.e. Proof #1, Proof #2, etc.). Discussion can follow each one. Please read the proofs before responding.;)

I read over the proofs. I didn't even know they existed. All I can say is :confused: :confused: Did William Miller later renounce any significance to those dates or did he also believe they were significant like SDAs do now?

freeindeed2

24th February 2007, 10:51 AM

I prove it by the time given by Moses, in the 26th chapter of Leviticus, being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical; which seven times cannot be undertsood less than seven times 360 revolutions of the earth in its orbit, making 2520 years. I believe this began according to Jeremiah 15:4, --"And I will cause them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem," and Isa. 7:8, "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Resin: and within three score and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people,"-- when Manasseh was carried captive to Babylon, and Israel,--see chronology, 2 Chron. 33:9, "So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the Lord had destroyed before the children of Israel,"--the 677th year B.C. Then take 677 out of the 2520, leaves A.D. 1843, when the punishment of the people of God will end.

Question:
Is this a reasonable and correct conclusion to draw to form the first link for, in EGW's words, Miller's "perfect chain of biblical truth" to arrive at the date of 1843 for Christ's return (and later the Investigative Judgment)?
Are the 'proof-texts' Miller used given in their context? Are they making reference to the second coming? Are they time prophecies? Is there any reason to link Lev 26:18, Jeremiah 15:4, Isa 7:8, and 2 Chron 33:9 together to arrive at Miller's conclusion? Check them out in their context and then let's discuss the first 'proof'.

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

tall73

25th February 2007, 06:34 AM

tall73

25th February 2007, 06:54 AM

I prove it by the time given by Moses, in the 26th chapter of Leviticus, being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical; which seven times cannot be undertsood less than seven times 360 revolutions of the earth in its orbit, making 2520 years. I believe this began according to Jeremiah 15:4, --"And I will cause them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem," and Isa. 7:8, "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Resin: and within three score and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people,"-- when Manasseh was carried captive to Babylon, and Israel,--see chronology, 2 Chron. 33:9, "So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the Lord had destroyed before the children of Israel,"--the 677th year B.C. Then take 677 out of the 2520, leaves A.D. 1843, when the punishment of the people of God will end.

Question:
Is this a reasonable and correct conclusion to draw to form the first link for, in EGW's words, Miller's "perfect chain of biblical truth" to arrive at the date of 1843 for Christ's return (and later the Investigative Judgment)?
Are the 'proof-texts' Miller used given in their context? Are they making reference to the second coming? Are they time prophecies? Is there any reason to link Lev 26:18, Jeremiah 15:4, Isa 7:8, and 2 Chron 33:9 together to arrive at Miller's conclusion? Check them out in their context and then let's discuss the first 'proof'.

A. Can you get me a link to these proofs that come from a source we can all recognize?

B. It seems he took the KJV "times" to be actual chronological periods rather than multiplied punishments.

And 360 rotations?

In any case, EGW's view seemed to be that Miller was wrong on some of these things but that God hid it to serve His purpoes of bringing attention to the movement.

Not arguing that one way or the other, just mentioning it.

Sophia7

25th February 2007, 07:50 AM

Here is what EGW wrote about Miller's chart: September 23, the Lord showed me that He had stretched out His hand the second time to recover the remnant of His people, and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering, Israel was smitten and torn, but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up His people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering, when God has set His hand to gather His people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was wrong for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God should do no more for us now than He did then, Israel would never be gathered. I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. {EW 74.1}
And here is where she talked about the "perfect chain of truth" (note that she wasn't referring specifically to Miller's proofs here):God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one, to guide his mind and open to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people. The commencement of the chain of truth was given to him, and he was led on to search for link after link, until he looked with wonder and admiration upon the Word of God. He saw there a perfect chain of truth. That Word which he had regarded as uninspired now opened before his vision in its beauty and glory. He saw that one portion of Scripture explains another, and when one passage was closed to his understanding, he found in another part of the Word that which explained it. He regarded the sacred Word of God with joy and with the deepest respect and awe. {EW 229.1}
A little more on her views of William Miller and the mistake in prophetic interpretation:I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. . . . {EW 232.2}

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the
234
prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2}

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Falsehoods were circulated to injure his influence; and at different times after he had plainly declared the counsel of God, applying cutting truths to the hearts of his hearers, great rage was kindled against him, and as he left the place of meeting, some waylaid him in order to take his life. But angels of God were sent to protect him, and they led him safely away from the angry mob. His work was not yet finished. . . .
235
{EW 234.1}

I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.
236
They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}

Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}

Sophia7

25th February 2007, 08:10 AM

And I don't think they ever dated to the spring because the whole IJ was the antitypical application of the fall harvest feast. I'd like to see an original quote from W Miller that dated it to the spring time.

Yes, they had dated it to the spring of 1844 before they arrived at the Oct. 22 date: Miller and his associates at first believed that the 2300 days would terminate in the spring of 1844, whereas the prophecy points to the autumn of that year. The misapprehension of this point brought disappointment and perplexity to
329
those who had fixed upon the earlier date as the time of the Lord's coming. But this did not in the least affect the strength of the argument showing that the 2300 days terminated in the year 1844, and that the great event represented by the cleansing of the sanctuary must then take place. {GC88 328.3}
_______________________________________________

The testimony of the prophecies which seemed to point to the coming of Christ in the spring of 1844 took deep hold of the minds of the people. As the message went from State to State, there was everywhere awakened widespread interest. Many were convicted that the arguments from the prophetic periods were correct, and, sacrificing their pride of opinion, they joyfully received the truth. {GC88 368.2}
_______________________________________________

When the time passed at which the Lord's coming was first expected,--in the spring of 1844,--those who had looked in faith for his appearing were for a season involved in doubt and uncertainty. While the world regarded them as having been utterly defeated, and proved to have been cherishing a delusion, their source of consolation was still the Word of God. Many continued to search the Scriptures, examining anew the evidences of their faith, and carefully studying the prophecies to obtain further light. The Bible testimony in support of their position seemed clear and conclusive. Signs which could not be mistaken pointed to the coming of Christ as near. The special blessing of the Lord, both in the conversion of sinners and the revival of spiritual life among Christians, had testified that the message was of Heaven. And though the believers could not explain their disappointment, they felt assured that God had led them in their past experience. {GC88 391.1}
_______________________________________________

In the summer of 1844, Adventists discovered the mistake in their former reckoning of the prophetic periods, and settled upon the correct position. The 2300 days of Dan. 8:14, which all believed to extend to the second coming of Christ, had been thought to end in the spring of 1844; but it was now seen that this period extended to the autumn of the same year, and the minds of Adventists were fixed upon this point as the time for the Lord's appearing. The proclamation of this time message was another step in the fulfillment of the parable of the marriage, whose application to the experience of Adventists had already been clearly seen. As in the parable the cry was raised at midnight announcing the approach of the bridegroom, so in the fulfillment, midway between the spring of 1844, when it was first supposed that the 2300 days would close, and the autumn of 1844, at which time it was afterward found
249
that they were really to close, such a cry was raised, in the very words of Scripture: "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." {4SP 248.2}

Eila

25th February 2007, 11:54 AM

I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. {EW 74.1}

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement?

Sophia7

25th February 2007, 03:20 PM

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement?

No, you're not.

freeindeed2

25th February 2007, 07:43 PM

A. Can you get me a link to these proofs that come from a source we can all recognize?
I don't have an online link, but they come from Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

B. It seems he took the KJV "times" to be actual chronological periods rather than multiplied punishments.

And 360 rotations?

Yes, he did. Which is part of the problem for his first proof.

I'm as stumped as the next guy on 360 rotations.

In any case, EGW's view seemed to be that Miller was wrong on some of these things but that God hid it to serve His purpoes of bringing attention to the movement.

Not arguing that one way or the other, just mentioning it.
Right. She's basically blaming God for the error(s), or at least accusing God of perpetuating a lie in order to cause a disappointment on the Millerites.

freeindeed2

25th February 2007, 07:46 PM

Here is what EGW wrote about Miller's chart:September 23, the Lord showed me that He had stretched out His hand the second time to recover the remnant of His people, and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering, Israel was smitten and torn, but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up His people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering, when God has set His hand to gather His people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was wrong for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God should do no more for us now than He did then, Israel would never be gathered. I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. {EW 74.1}

And here is where she talked about the "perfect chain of truth" (note that she wasn't referring specifically to Miller's proofs here):God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one, to guide his mind and open to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people. The commencement of the chain of truth was given to him, and he was led on to search for link after link, until he looked with wonder and admiration upon the Word of God. He saw there a perfect chain of truth. That Word which he had regarded as uninspired now opened before his vision in its beauty and glory. He saw that one portion of Scripture explains another, and when one passage was closed to his understanding, he found in another part of the Word that which explained it. He regarded the sacred Word of God with joy and with the deepest respect and awe. {EW 229.1}

A little more on her views of William Miller and the mistake in prophetic interpretation:I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. . . . {EW 232.2}

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the

234

prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2}

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Falsehoods were circulated to injure his influence; and at different times after he had plainly declared the counsel of God, applying cutting truths to the hearts of his hearers, great rage was kindled against him, and as he left the place of meeting, some waylaid him in order to take his life. But angels of God were sent to protect him, and they led him safely away from the angry mob. His work was not yet finished. . . .

235

{EW 234.1}

I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.

236

They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}

Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}
She wrote a lot more than this even, and I'll focus on what EGW had to say about Miller and his "15 proofs" after they have all been presented.

freeindeed2

25th February 2007, 07:53 PM

It is proved typically by the year of release. See Deut. 15:1,2: "At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release; and this is the manner of the release; every creditor that lendeth aught unto his neighbor shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbor or of his brother, because it is called the Lord's release." Also Jer. 34:14: At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother a Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee, and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee; but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear." We are, by this type, taught that the people of God will be delivered from their servitude and bondage when they have served their 7 prophetic years. 7 times 360 years is 2520. Beginning with the captivity of Israel and the king of Judah, Manasseh, 677 B.C., must end in A.D. 1843, when the children of God will be released from all bondage and slavery.

Again, are the texts in context with the second coming of Christ? Do you agree with Miller's methods for arriving at the 1843 date?

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

icedragon101

25th February 2007, 07:55 PM

If you don't know already, you'd be surprised to know that most SDA colleges have been teach NLP (a form of hypnotism) to the students, young pastors. No wonder they are so confused. this is just ridiclous. I remember the accusations that people made but I don't remember this being taught. I guess that means I was hypnotized.

icedragon101

25th February 2007, 08:00 PM

Furthermore, the previous dating of 1843 was a failed calculation because there was no year zero. And I don't think they ever dated to the spring because the whole IJ was the antitypical application of the fall harvest feast. I'd like to see an original quote from W Miller that dated it to the spring time. you didn't know this. you must be an apostate, every true SDA knows this. he he he

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 04:35 AM

It is also proved by the seven years' war of Zion with her enemies, given to us in Ez. 39:9, 10: "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: so that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire; and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God." The Children of God will be contending with their enemies, spoiling those that spoiled them, and robbing those that have robbed them, 7 years, prophetic, which is 2520 common years. Beginning as before, when Babylon began to spoil and rob them, and when they by the fire of the truth began to burn up the weapons of their enemies, in this moral warfare; this will end in 1843.

This is rather obscure IMO, but you decide for yourselves. Would you count this as a link in a "perfect chain of biblical truth"?

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 12:43 PM

Neuro-linguistic programming.

Do a search on that and the seminary and you might come up with something.

Anyway, OntheDL, are you suggesting that everyone who has ever had questions on the IJ or on Miller has been subjected to hypnotism? What about those in the past century before this started?

Here is a cached version of an old page on the subject.:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:BL34M9MKzekJ:www.sdadefend.com/Hypnotism.htm+neurolinguistic+programming+adventist+seminary&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Here is a timeline of Adventist apostasies:

http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/id1217.htm

1989 - In the NAD guidelines for "Homecoming Emphasis During Year of Evangelism" on p 37, lines
30-35, it states the General Conferences' desire that every SDA pastor in the North American Division be trained in Neuro-Linguistic Programming hypnosis, and that 200 SDA pastors have already been certified as trainers. In Selected Messages, book 2, 351, God tells us that when we see this, we are "near the close of probation."

Now, let's say for the sake of argument that we grant that NLP is

a. taught at the Seminary
b. effective
c. hypnosis

It obviously would take a few years to get them to that point. But that still post-dates Ford by some time. It postdates Cottrel's early misgivings during the writing of the commentary. It predates a fair number of other Adventist detractors.

I think we need to settle the issues on the evidence, not no allegations of hypnotism.

No, I wasn't talking about the past. But in the recent year, the New Age movement has certainly enter the SDA denomination.

In many SDA college, David Ellis' book "Becoming a master student" is a required reading. It's a book on eastern mystersm, self-hypnosis.

I have a copy of cireculum of several colleges having a famous NLP instructor led classes. I also have an audio recording of CUC president William Loveless telling the young pastors in a workers meeting to 'put down the bible, the desire of ages, the great controversy because we are not going to use them. We are using techniques from the 'Spiritual Exercise of Ignatius of Loyola'. He went on and instruct the students to relax their shoulders, put their hands on their knees, with their eyes closed to imagine the spirit comes down like oil from the top of their head. This is typical eastern meditation.

Auto-suggestion, mirror technique, visualizing...are methods of hypnosis and mind control. Many of them are also PMA (positive mental attitude) techniques.

I meant to transfer these into computer format. If anyone is really interested, I'll spend sometime and then post them.

http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/id1217.htm

1989 - In the NAD guidelines for "Homecoming Emphasis During Year of Evangelism" on p 37, lines
30-35, it states the General Conferences' desire that every SDA pastor in the North American Division be trained in Neuro-Linguistic Programming hypnosis, and that 200 SDA pastors have already been certified as trainers. In Selected Messages, book 2, 351, God tells us that when we see this, we are "near the close of probation."

That website has quite few quotes on SDA NLP courses.

The SOP tells us when one man allows another man to control his mind, both are under the control of Satan.

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 01:00 PM

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement?
No, you are certainly not the only one.:)

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 01:02 PM

Here is what EGW wrote about Miller's chart:September 23, the Lord showed me that He had stretched out His hand the second time to recover the remnant of His people, and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering, Israel was smitten and torn, but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up His people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering, when God has set His hand to gather His people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was wrong for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God should do no more for us now than He did then, Israel would never be gathered. I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed. {EW 74.1}

And here is where she talked about the "perfect chain of truth" (note that she wasn't referring specifically to Miller's proofs here):God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one, to guide his mind and open to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people. The commencement of the chain of truth was given to him, and he was led on to search for link after link, until he looked with wonder and admiration upon the Word of God. He saw there a perfect chain of truth. That Word which he had regarded as uninspired now opened before his vision in its beauty and glory. He saw that one portion of Scripture explains another, and when one passage was closed to his understanding, he found in another part of the Word that which explained it. He regarded the sacred Word of God with joy and with the deepest respect and awe. {EW 229.1}

A little more on her views of William Miller and the mistake in prophetic interpretation:I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods, and some renounced their pride, and left their salaries and their churches to go forth from place to place to give the message. But as the message from heaven could find a place in the hearts of but few of the professed ministers of Christ, the work was laid upon many who were not preachers. Some left their fields to sound the message, while others were called from their shops and their merchandise. And even some professional men were compelled to leave their professions to engage in the unpopular work of giving the first angel's message. . . . {EW 232.2}

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the

234

prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2}

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Falsehoods were circulated to injure his influence; and at different times after he had plainly declared the counsel of God, applying cutting truths to the hearts of his hearers, great rage was kindled against him, and as he left the place of meeting, some waylaid him in order to take his life. But angels of God were sent to protect him, and they led him safely away from the angry mob. His work was not yet finished. . . .

235

{EW 234.1}

I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment. The time passed, and those who had looked with joyful expectation for their Saviour were sad and disheartened, while those who had not loved the appearing of Jesus, but embraced the message through fear, were pleased that He did not come at the time of expectation. Their profession had not affected the heart and purified the life. The passing of the time was well calculated to reveal such hearts.

236

They were the first to turn and ridicule the sorrowful, disappointed ones who really loved the appearing of their Saviour. I saw the wisdom of God in proving His people and giving them a searching test to discover those who would shrink and turn back in the hour of trial. {EW 235.3}

Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with sympathy and love upon those who had with sweet expectation longed to see Him whom their souls loved. Angels were hovering around them, to sustain them in the hour of their trial. Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven. Those faithful, disappointed ones, who could not understand why their Lord did not come, were not left in darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained. They saw that the prophetic periods reached to 1844, and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the Word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time--"Though it [the vision] tarry, wait for it." In their love for Christ's immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw that many of them could not rise above their severe disappointment to possess that degree of zeal and energy which had marked their faith in 1843. {EW 236.1}

I can see perfectly the failure of the Millerites had a great purpose.

The disciples had a great disappointment until the resurrected Jesus pointed to the scripture, their eyes were open.

Had the early adventists not have that great disappointment, they probably would not have searched the bible earnestly for their errors and thus came to the complete understanding of the sanctuary.

The core of adventism is found on the study of the sanctuary. Without a thorough study of the sanctuary, one can not completely understand the plan of salvation, the true justification and sanctification message, the prophecy, the character and the patience of Jesus...

Eila

26th February 2007, 01:12 PM

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 02:39 PM

I can see perfectly the failure of the Millerites had a great purpose.

The disciples had a great disappointment until the resurrected Jesus pointed to the scripture, their eyes were open.

Had the early adventists not have that great disappointment, they probably would not have searched the bible earnestly for their errors and thus came to the complete understanding of the sanctuary.

The core of adventism is found on the study of the sanctuary. Without a thorough study of the sanctuary, one can not completely understand the plan of salvation, the true justification and sanctification message, the prophecy, the character and the patience of Jesus...
The difference is that the disappointment the disciples had was not built on lies. The Millerites/early advent Great Disappointment was built on lies and the accusation against God that he was responsible for them not seeing the lie. Shady, shady.

That's a huge difference! You're comparing the false proofs of William Miller as confirmed by EGW as being a 'perfect chain of biblical truth' to the TRUE prophecies about Christ being in the grave for 3 days and those TRUE prophecies actually happening the way they were predicted. Both groups were disappointed, but only one was grounded in truth.

Adventism was founded on those early lies. That's why it is so important to look at the 'proofs' that caused the unnecessary disappointment in the first place. If the 'proofs' themselves do not stand up to scrutiny, then how can you possibly believe that anything took place on Oct. 22, 1844 up in heaven where nobody can verfy anything one way or another?

The "15 proofs" are extremely important to supporting the Investigative Judgment (since it's how you arrive at the 1843/1844 date which is one of your fundamental beliefs!). I hope you'll do an honest investigation into them and just how the current SDA IJ came about.

Sophia7

26th February 2007, 03:52 PM

So far, Miller's proofs all seem like variations of the same idea--2520 years leading up to 1843, based on some convoluted reasoning about revolutions of the earth--with different texts used in each proof to support his claims. This just makes no sense. If God placed His hand over the mistakes in Miller's figures, He must have had to cover up an awful lot in order to get him to make these conclusions. ;)

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 03:58 PM

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 04:12 PM

It is proved, also, by the sign of the Sabbath. Ex. 31:13-17: "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore: for it is holy unto you. Every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done, but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath-day he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed."

Heb. 4:4, 9-11: "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise: And God did rest the seventh day from all his works." "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

As God was six days creating the old heavens and earth, and rested on teh seventh; so it is a sign Christ will also labor six days in creating the new heavens and earth, and rest on the seventh. Hol long is a day with the Lord? Peter tells us in his 2 Epistle 3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." If, then, a thousand years is a day with the Lord, how long has Christ been to work creating the new? I answer, if we will allow the Bible to make us a chronology, we shall find this year, 1843, the 6000 years from Adam's fall will be finished. Then the Anti-typical Sabbath of 1000 years will commence. Rev. 10:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

How can this be a link in the 'perfect chain of truth'? Ex. 31 and Heb. 4 have nothing to do with a time prophecy for the second coming!

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 04:23 PM

The difference is that the disappointment the disciples had was not built on lies. The Millerites/early advent Great Disappointment was built on lies and the accusation against God that he was responsible for them not seeing the lie. Shady, shady.

That's a huge difference! You're comparing the false proofs of William Miller as confirmed by EGW as being a 'perfect chain of biblical truth' to the TRUE prophecies about Christ being in the grave for 3 days and those TRUE prophecies actually happening the way they were predicted. Both groups were disappointed, but only one was grounded in truth.

Adventism was founded on those early lies. That's why it is so important to look at the 'proofs' that caused the unnecessary disappointment in the first place. If the 'proofs' themselves do not stand up to scrutiny, then how can you possibly believe that anything took place on Oct. 22, 1844 up in heaven where nobody can verfy anything one way or another?

The "15 proofs" are extremely important to supporting the Investigative Judgment (since it's how you arrive at the 1843/1844 date which is one of your fundamental beliefs!). I hope you'll do an honest investigation into them and just how the current SDA IJ came about.

There are no lies in Adventism or even the Millerites.

The millerites failed because of the same reason the disciples were greatly disappointed: failed expectations.

The only lies are those that you believe in.

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 04:26 PM

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 05:04 PM

There are no lies in Adventism or even the Millerites.
Hmmmm....really!!???

Jesus coming back in 1843 was not a lie but truth?
Jesus coming back in Spring 1844 was not a lie but truth?
Jesus coming back on October 22, 1844 was not a lie but truth?

Promoting an idea that is false is promoting a lie, even if the 'promoter' didn't do it intentionally. It simply wasn't the truth! Even Miller admitted it.

The millerites failed because of the same reason the disciples were greatly disappointed: failed expectations.
They failed because they believed a lie. Their expectations failed too, but they did so on the basis of believing false information. (Hence, a lie!)

The only lies are those that you believe in.
Ouch!!! I think I can stop the bleeding after that stab...:cry:

So you believe that Jesus came back in 1843, and twice in 1844? I don't!

And that's why I started this thread. The 15 proofs used to arrive at the three wrong dates for the second coming are the same one's adopted over and applied to the Investigative Judgment beginning the day after the disappointment. Sounds a bit fishy to me. Worth checking out maybe?

Just read the proofs for arriving at the Oct. 22, 1844 dates and tell me you think they are sound and a 'perfect chain of biblical truth' as EGW said.

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 05:07 PM

Hmm.. have you become an ex-SDA too?

I remember you used to have a SDA icon. And now a crucifix?
Save that sarcasm for responding to the "15 proofs" for the IJ.

Sophia7

26th February 2007, 05:19 PM

Hmm.. have you become an ex-SDA too?

I remember you used to have a SDA icon. And now a crucifix?

I'm still an Adventist, but I'm a Christian first. I don't agree with the IJ doctrine and the Adventist interpretation of the 2300 days anymore. Since I disagree with certain things, I thought it would be best to use the general Christian icon for posting outside the Adventist forum. You have a cross icon, too; are you an ex-SDA?

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 05:19 PM

Hmmmm....really!!???

Jesus coming back in 1843 was not a lie but truth?
Jesus coming back in Spring 1844 was not a lie but truth?
Jesus coming back on October 22, 1844 was not a lie but truth?

Promoting an idea that is false is promoting a lie, even if the 'promoter' didn't do it intentionally. It simply wasn't the truth! Even Miller admitted it.

They failed because they believed a lie. Their expectations failed too, but they did so on the basis of believing false information. (Hence, a lie!)

First of all, Millerites were NOT adventists or should I say 7th-day Advenstists are NOT Millerites. So I'm not sure what it gains you by tearing down the millerites.

SDA's believes are the corrections of the millerites'.

Ouch!!! I think I can stop the bleeding after that stab...:cry:

Just remember, when point your finger at someone else, there are three that point back at yourself.

So you believe that Jesus came back in 1843, and twice in 1844? I don't!

I don't because I'm not a millerite.

And that's why I started this thread. The 15 proofs used to arrive at the three wrong dates for the second coming are the same one's adopted over and applied to the Investigative Judgment beginning the day after the disappointment. Sounds a bit fishy to me. Worth checking out maybe?

Just read the proofs for arriving at the Oct. 22, 1844 dates and tell me you think they are sound and a 'perfect chain of biblical truth' as EGW said.

So are you saying the disciples believed in a lie? It's called failed expectations. Because man's finite mind can not comprehend God's purpose fully all at once.

Yes, Jesus predicted His death to the disciples. But they didn't understand it and expected a literal deliverance. It took the great disappointment and Jesus again pointing out the scriptures for them to understand.

Same thing with the Millerites. They misunderstood Dan 8:14 and took a literal interpretation. It took the great disappointment for the remnants again search the bible for the true interpretation of the prophecy.

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 05:21 PM

I'm still an Adventist, but I don't agree with the IJ doctrine and the Adventist interpretation of the 2300 days anymore. Since I disagree with certain things, I thought it would be best to use the general Christian icon for posting outside the Adventist forum. You have a cross icon, too; are you an ex-SDA?

When I first registered, I registered as a christian, not denomination specific.

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 05:51 PM

First of all, Millerites were NOT adventists or should I say 7th-day Advenstists are NOT Millerites. So I'm not sure what it gains you by tearing down the millerites.

SDA's believes are the corrections of the millerites'.
What's being torn down here. Have you actually read the "15 proofs"?

So are you saying the disciples believed in a lie? It's called failed expectations. Because man's finite mind can not comprehend God's purpose fully all at once.
It wasn't a lie. Jesus actually DID die and was raised on the 3rd day. It wasn't a lie! It actually happened and was verified by many witnesses.

You cannot say the same for 1843/1844(2). The "15 proofs" leave much to be desired (READ THEM!), and they had to switch the dates three different times after they failed, and then after the third failure, they had to come up with another event in order to justify all of their disappointment. The event they come up with cannot be verified, is not supported by the Bible alone, and has NO witnesses to it. It is a "NEW DOCTRINE" that NO other Christian individual or group ever came up with before, nor has any group (other than SDA's) accepted since. And to top it all off, the one who established the "15 proofs" for arriving at Oct. 22, 1844 admitted it was wrong...that it wasn't true! He (Miller) did NOT accept the Investigative Judgment!

And you want to compare this with the disciples not understanding the predictions made about his death and resurrection?:D

Yes, Jesus predicted His death to the disciples. But they didn't understand it and expected a literal deliverance. It took the great disappointment and Jesus again pointing out the scriptures for them to understand.

Same thing with the Millerites. They misunderstood Dan 8:14 and took a literal interpretation. It took the great disappointment for the remnants again search the bible for the true interpretation of the prophecy.
See above. It's nowhere near the same thing! It's all justification for being wrong and for not being willing to admit and accept it. Read the proofs!

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 06:03 PM

What's being torn down here. Have you actually read the "15 proofs"?

It wasn't a lie. Jesus actually DID die and was raised on the 3rd day. It wasn't a lie! It actually happened and was verified by many witnesses.

You cannot say the same for 1843/1844(2). The "15 proofs" leave much to be desired (READ THEM!), and they had to switch the dates three different times after they failed, and then after the third failure, they had to come up with another event in order to justify all of their disappointment. The event they come up with cannot be verified, is not supported by the Bible alone, and has NO witnesses to it. It is a "NEW DOCTRINE" that NO other Christian individual or group ever came up with before, nor has any group (other than SDA's) accepted since. And to top it all off, the one who established the "15 proofs" for arriving at Oct. 22, 1844 admitted it was wrong...that it wasn't true! He (Miller) did NOT accept the Investigative Judgment!

And you want to compare this with the disciples not understanding the predictions made about his death and resurrection?:D

See above. It's nowhere near the same thing! It's all justification for being wrong and for not being willing to admit and accept it. Read the proofs!

Ok, you are not bringing here anything new in this thread. And again, you do not understand IJ. If you did, you'd realize the dating is not the foundation of IJ. The sanctuary doctrine is. And just to cover the ground here, that's already being attacked.

And again, you attack Millerites for coming to the wrong conclusion of Jesus returning in 1844. That's the not issue with SDAs. SDAs are not millerites.

And lastly the disciples were disappointed because they believed the messiah would have delivered them from the Romans and restored a Davidic kingdom. That was the issue. And similarly, the Millerites expected Jesus to return to restored the Davidic kingdom. Don't be confused.

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 06:29 PM

Ok, you are not bringing here anything new in this thread. And again, you do not understand IJ. If you did, you'd realize the dating is not the foundation of IJ. The sanctuary doctrine is. And just to cover the ground here, that's already being attacked.
I started the thread and I haven't seen you respond to any of the four proofs that have been posted yet. Please respond to the actual proofs that were used for arriving at the date SDA's claim the IJ started.

I understand the IJ quite well. I taught it for many years for the SDA's. You do not know what you speak of and you're sidestepping actually addressing the "15 proofs".

And again, you attack Millerites for coming to the wrong conclusion of Jesus returning in 1844. That's the not issue with SDAs. SDAs are not millerites.
There is no attacking. Even Miller admitted he was wrong about it. We're just analyzing the proofs.

The problem is that SDA's use the date October 22, 1844 as the beginning date for a non-verifiable event that supposedly took place in heaven (even though Christ was already sitting down, something the priest never did!).

Are you claiming that this date, October 22, 1844, has nothing to do with the Investigative Judgment doctrine of SDA's since it was arrived at by William Miller, the leader of the Millerites?

And lastly the disciples were disappointed because they believed the messiah would have delivered them from the Romans and restored a Davidic kingdom. That was the issue. And similarly, the Millerites expected Jesus to return to restored the Davidic kingdom. Don't be confused.
No confusion here. It's not the same.

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 07:46 PM

Again, we can prove it be the typical jubilee. Lev. 25:8-13: "And thou shalt number seven Sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of teh seven Sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound, on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty through all the land, unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you; ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. For it is the jubilee; it shall be holy unto you, ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field. In the year of this jubilee, ye shall return every man unto his possession." Now, if we can show any rule whereby we can find the antitype, we can tell when the people of God will come into the inheritance of the purchased possession, and the redemption of their bodies, and the trump of jubilee will proclaim liberty, a glorious one, through all the land. In order to do this we must take notice of the order of the Sabbaths. "Seven Sabbaths shall be complete." There is seven kinds of Sabbaths, which all have seven for a given number.

The Jews kept but six Sabbaths: if they had kept the seventh they would have been made perfect without us; but they broke the seventh. "Therefore there remains a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God." The Jewish Sabbaths were:--

1. The 7th day. Ex. 31:15
2. The 50th day. Lev. 23:15,16
3. The 7th week. Deut. 16:9
4. The 7th month. Lev. 23:24,25
5. The 7th year. Lev. 25:3,4
6. The 7 times of 7 years and 50th year Jubilee.
7. The 7 times 7 Jubilees and the 50th Jubilee will bring us to a complete or perfect Sabbath,--the great Jubilee of Jubilees. Thus 7, times 7, 50 years is 49 times 50=2450 years.

It is very evident no year of release or Jubilee was ever kept after the reign of Josiah, the last king of Jerusalem that obeyed the commandments of the Lord, or kept his statutes. This king's reign ended B.C. 607. See 2 Ki. 23; 2 Chron. 35, 36 and Jer. 22. After which the Jews never kept, neither could they keep, a year of release, or Jubilee; for neither their kings, their nobles, their people, or their lands could have been redeemed after this. Jer. 44:20-23. Here ended the Jewish Jubilees, when they had not kept more than 21 Jubilees, lacking 28 of coming to the great Jubilee.

And now the land was to lay desolate, while the people of God were in their enemies' land. Lev. 26:34. How long is a Jubilee of Jubilees? Ans. 49 times 50 years = 2450 years. When did these years begin? Ans. When the Jews ceased the keeping of the Sabbaths and Jubilees, at the close of Josiah's reign, B.C. 607. Take 607 from 2450, it leaves A.D. 1843; when the Jubilee of Jubilees will come.

"Perfect chain of Biblical truth?" Is there any record that the Jews EVER celebrated Jubilee?

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 08:00 PM

I prove it by Hosea 6:1-3: "Come, and let us return unto the Lord; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us; in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord; his going forth is prepared as teh morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." This prophecy is the two days of the Roman Kingdom, in its imperial, Kingly and Papal form, with its great iron teeth, tearing and persecuting the people of God; the third day is the same as Rev. 10:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall reign with him a thousand years;" when the people of God will live in his sight, "live and reign with him a thousand years." If, then, the third day is a thousand years, then the two days are of equal length. When did the two days begin? Ans. When the Jews made a league with the Romans. See Hosea 5:13: "When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound." Dan. 9:23: "And after the league made with him, he shall work deceitfully; for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." 1 Maccabees 8, 9. This league was confirmed and ratified, and the Grecian kingdom ceased to rule over God's people B.C. 158 years. Then add 158 to 1842 and we have 2000 years, or two days; as Peter says, 2 Peter 3:8: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." And 1843 is the first year in the 3d thousand years, or of man 2000 years under the Patriarchs; 2000 years under the Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian; and 2000 years under the Roman Pagan, Papal and Kingly.

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

freeindeed2

26th February 2007, 08:15 PM

I can prove it by the length of the vision which Daniel had (8:1-14) of the ram, he-goat and the horn, which Daniel was informed was 2300 days long. Dan. 8:13, 14: "Then I heard on saint speaking, and another saint said unto the certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and teh transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." And from which the 70 weeks were cut off, and fulfilled, the year of Christ's death. Dan. 9:20-27. Then 70 weeks of years being cut off from 2300 days, makes these days years; and 490 years being fulfilled in A.D. 33, leaves 1810 years to the fulfilment of the vision, which added to 33 makes 1843, when the Sanctuary will be cleansed, and the people of God justified.

"Perfect chain of biblical truth?"

This is the proof most SDA's will recognize. It became the basis for the "seven month movement" with October 22, 1844 being the new date set for the 2nd coming. Later Adventists re-interpreted this proof of Millers and it became the basis for the Investigative Judgment, the core pillar of SDAism and their only unique doctrine.

We can discuss that in a different thread as it is built on numerous assumptions, many of which are invalid or contradict the Bible.

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

OntheDL

26th February 2007, 11:14 PM

I started the thread and I haven't seen you respond to any of the four proofs that have been posted yet. Please respond to the actual proofs that were used for arriving at the date SDA's claim the IJ started.

I haven't seen anything that needed a response.

Provide original quotes and site the source. If it pertains to SDAs not Millerites, I'll respond if it's necessary.

I understand the IJ quite well. I taught it for many years for the SDA's. You do not know what you speak of and you're sidestepping actually addressing the "15 proofs".

From your previous posts, you have not demonstrated that understanding. I told you several times, the foundation of IJ is the sanctuary doctrine. The timelines are less than secondary. What are you trying to prove or disprove? We already know William Miller was wrong on the 1843 dating and his expectation of Christ's return. What does it have anything to do with SDAs?

There is no attacking. Even Miller admitted he was wrong about it. We're just analyzing the proofs.

The problem is that SDA's use the date October 22, 1844 as the beginning date for a non-verifiable event that supposedly took place in heaven (even though Christ was already sitting down, something the priest never did!).

Are you claiming that this date, October 22, 1844, has nothing to do with the Investigative Judgment doctrine of SDA's since it was arrived at by William Miller, the leader of the Millerites?

No confusion here. It's not the same.

"non-verifiable event"? You mean you can't verify if it happened, then how do you know this "non-verifiable event" didn't happen?

Let me hear your interpretation of Daniel 8:14.

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 02:06 AM

I haven't seen anything that needed a response.

Provide original quotes and site the source. If it pertains to SDAs not Millerites, I'll respond if it's necessary.
I have provided 7 of the original 15 proofs along with a solid SDA source under the discussion of 'Proof #1'. If you don't want to weigh in on the discussion or 'respond' that's fine. But please stop trying to sidetrack the discussion. Thanks!

From your previous posts, you have not demonstrated that understanding. I told you several times, the foundation of IJ is the sanctuary doctrine. The timelines are less than secondary. What are you trying to prove or disprove? We already know William Miller was wrong on the 1843 dating and his expectation of Christ's return. What does it have anything to do with SDAs?

We're not discussing/debating the IJ at this point in time. The 'sanctuary doctrine' came about because of the proofs the William Miller came up with for the second coming of Christ. If he hadn't posed those proofs in the first place, SDA's would have this doctrine. Without the Oct. 22, 1844 date from Miller's proofs, where would the 'start date' be for the incomplete atonement of Christ? That date is vital to the SDA doctrine, and EGW's many statements in regards to Miller's proofs.

"non-verifiable event"? You mean you can't verify if it happened, then how do you know this "non-verifiable event" didn't happen?

Let me hear your interpretation of Daniel 8:14.
SDA's make the claim that it did happen. The burden of proof is upon them to provide the evidence. But again, this discussion is not about the IJ. It's about the proofs that provide the date for the beginning point of the 'non-verifiable" event in heaven.

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 11:02 AM

It can be proved by Daniel 7:6,7: "And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left had unto heaven, and swear by him that liveth forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The question is asked, How long to the end of these wonders? These wonders are to the resurrections. See 2d and 3d verses: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness, as the stars forever and ever." The answer is given by the angel, who informs Daniel it shall be for a time, times, and a half, and when he shall have accomplished to scatte the power of the holy people, all will be finished. Ez. 12:10-15: "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; This burden concerneth the prince in Jerusalem, and all the house of Israel that are among them. Say, I am your sign: like as I have done, so shall it be done unto them: they shall remove and go into captivity. And the prince that is among them shall bear upon his shoulders in the twilight, and shall go forth: they shall dig through the wall to carry out thereby: he shall cover his face, that he see not the ground with his eyes. My net also will I spread upon him, and he shall be taken in my snare: and I will bring him to Babylon, to the land of Chaldeans, yet shall he not see it, though he shall die there. And I will scatter toward every wind all that are about him to help him, and all his bands; and I will draw out the sword after them. And they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall scatte them among the nations, and disperse them in the countries." Jer. 15:4: "And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of teh earth, becasue of Manasseh the son of Hezekiea, the king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem." This scattering begun, when Israel was scattered by Esarhaddon, and when the king of Judah, Manasseh, was carried to Babylon, B.C. 677. Thus they continued to be a people scatterd, by the kings of the earth, until they fled into the wilderness in A.D. 538, which makes 1215 years. There they remained in the wilderness a time, times, and a half--which began A.D. 538, and continued until A.D. 1798. The kings of the earth then had power, and the time, times and a half of the scattering of the holy people is filled up by 45 years, being the remainder of the 1215, baking in all 1260 years, under the nations of kings, and ending in the year 1843,--which is the fullness of times. Eph. 1:7,10: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fullness of time he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"--when the people of God, both among Jews and Gentiles, will no more be scattered, but gathered in one body in Christ.

"Perfect chain of biblical truth?" Again, do these texts fit together? Were they written with the second coming in mind?

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 12:17 PM

OntheDL

27th February 2007, 12:54 PM

I have provided 7 of the original 15 proofs along with a solid SDA source under the discussion of 'Proof #1'. If you don't want to weigh in on the discussion or 'respond' that's fine. But please stop trying to sidetrack the discussion. Thanks!

We're not discussing/debating the IJ at this point in time. The 'sanctuary doctrine' came about because of the proofs the William Miller came up with for the second coming of Christ. If he hadn't posed those proofs in the first place, SDA's would have this doctrine. Without the Oct. 22, 1844 date from Miller's proofs, where would the 'start date' be for the incomplete atonement of Christ? That date is vital to the SDA doctrine, and EGW's many statements in regards to Miller's proofs.

SDA's make the claim that it did happen. The burden of proof is upon them to provide the evidence. But again, this discussion is not about the IJ. It's about the proofs that provide the date for the beginning point of the 'non-verifiable" event in heaven.

Let me help you out...try to avoid long paragraphs. Space out each paragraphs. And avoid using different color and size fonts. That'll help to make your post more readable and perhaps get more response. Be sure to site your sources at the end of each paragraph or make footnotes at the end of each post. I don't think I have seen you doing it.

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 01:07 PM

Let me help you out...try to avoid long paragraphs. Space out each paragraphs. And avoid using different color and size fonts. That'll help to make your post more readable and perhaps get more response. Be sure to site your sources at the end of each paragraph or make footnotes at the end of each post. I don't think I have seen you doing it.

I am reposting them exactly as they were originally written by William Miller. Sorry about the paragraphs, but that's how they are. They are not my words but Miller's. Most of them are NOT very long anyway. It's not hard to read through a short paragraph. Most of it is the different Scriptures Miller used, that's why I bolded the parts where he is formulating the actual "proof" based on the text.

I bold the parts that actually do the math to arrive at the date 1843 (which we all know was 1844 because of the year 0 thing)

The only text size change I make is on the 1843 date itself. Nothing else has been made larger or smaller.

I posted the source where they were reprinted and will do it again here for you.

Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 03:11 PM

It can also be proved by the words of Christ, Lk. 13:32: "And he said unto them, Go ye and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." These two days, in which Christ casts out devils and does cures, are the same as Hosea's two days, at the end of which, the devil will be chained, and cast out of the earth into the pit, and shut up. This will take 2000 years of Roman power. Rev. 12:9: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out with him." And then the people of God will be perfected. Rev. 20:9: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: of such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This time began with the "great dragon," Rev. 12:3: "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

This government will draw after him one third part of the time, which wicked men have power in the earth, viz. 6000 years; and the 7000th, the year of Christ will take possession and reign with his saints, in perfect bliss.

This dragon power began its power over the saints when the league was made with him, B.C. 158,--and will end in 1842. Then the third day will begin 1843.

"Perfect chain of biblical truth?" Does anybody here believe that Miller's methods were correct rendering correct results for biblical interpretation?

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

freeindeed2

27th February 2007, 08:49 PM

Seeing this makes me wonder how everything is going to work out in the end. Here we have a former SDA pastor who for over 30 years preached the gospel and believed the truth with all of his heart but now is working desparately to chip away at the very foundation of that very faith.
I just wanted to clarify that I was an SDA for 35 years. I did not start pastoring when I was eight. I officially left within the last 12 months, but go back about 3 years to when I first realized I had been deceived by SDAism. About 7 years back I began really digging to uncover the answers to the questions.

Also I'm not working desperately to chip away at any faith. I believe that there is nothing wrong with honest investigation into the claims of any religion's belief system. People should be encouraged to put it ALL to the test, and not just take people's word for it. It may cause controversy sometimes, but so what? That's how we learn best.

It makes my heart sick to see this and to read the comments being made that have become so very slightly skewed from the truth in the Bible. The most powerful deceptions are the ones that contain 99% truth but 1% error. That tiny little ink spot or fly dropping in the annointment.
Now you're making accusations. All I want is for people to analyze the 15 proofs of Miller. We'll get to how they relate to EGW and the SDA church later. You're trying to point out my 1% error even before any of the proofs have been posted. I am asking for YOU, Jim Larmore (and anyone else who actually reads them), to read them and give an honest evaluation of Miller's methods for arriving at his conclusions. Do you not see that as being fair?

Indeed Mrs White at one point I understand made a statement that in the closing days of earth's history that some of the brightest lights would go out and become the greatest enemies of God's work.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
All prophets from the 1800's said that about anybody who might oppose their work, writings, movement, conclusions. I believe they anticipated people uncovering the falsities in their conclusions.

You're certainly not opposed to openly and honestly investigating the truth in light of the claims, are you?

Sophia7

27th February 2007, 08:50 PM

It can be proved by Daniel 7:11-13: "And from the time that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and teh abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waitheth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

The number 1335 days, from the taking away of Rome Pagan, A.D. 508, to set up Rome Papal, and the reign of Papacy, is 1290 days, which was exactly fulfilled in 1290 years, being fulfilled in 1798. This proves the 1335 days to be years, and that Daniel will stand in his lot in A.D. 1843. For proof texts, see Dan 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." 2 Thes. 2:6-8: "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Job 19:25: "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth."

"Perfect chain of biblical truth?"

Source:
Kai Arasola, The End of Historicism, (Sigtuna, Sweden: Datem Publishing, 1990) pages 219-225

Dr. Arasola (an SDA) analyzed W. Miller's methods of Bible study and his conclusions, including his "15 proofs" (he reprinted them in the book) which were instrumental to arriving at the three different dates for Christ's second coming (and soon after their failure, the same dates were used for the basis of the Investigative Judgment).

This one is interesting to me because EGW in her early years supported the Millerite view of the "daily":September 23d, the Lord showed me that he had stretched out his hand the second time to recover the remnant of his people, and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering time Israel was smitten and torn; but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up his people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering when God has set his hand to gather his people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was a shame for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God does no more for us now than he did then, Israel would never be gathered. It is as necessary that the truth should be published in a paper, as preached. {RH, November 1, 1850 par. 9}

The Lord showed me that the 1843 chart was directed by his hand, and that no part of it should be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them. That his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until his hand was removed. {RH, November 1, 1850 par. 10}

Then I saw in relation to the "Daily," that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text; and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the "Daily;" but since 1844, in the confusion, other views have been embraced, and darkness and confusion has followed. {RH, November 1, 1850 par. 11}
The Adventist Church later changed its view on "daily," amidst much controversy, and EGW refused to settle the question because she claimed to have been given no special revelation on the subject, even though she had previously written that God had given the Millerites the correct view of it. Here is some of what happened, quoted from the EGW CD:During the General Conference session in Washington in 1909, there surfaced signals of potential doctrinal controversy in which the "daily" of Daniel 8 largely figured. The Bulletin carries no reference to this, but it was in the back of the minds of not a few present at the session. Ellen White was fully aware of this and saw it as a threat to the long-overdue drive for city evangelism. Leading workers who expended their time and energies in doctrinal disputes could not throw themselves wholeheartedly into the evangelistic thrust. The story takes us back before the session, and then moves forward to some months after the session. This background aids in a better understanding of Ellen White's repeated and almost desperate calls for work in the cities. {6BIO 246.1}
Soon after becoming leader of the church in 1901, Elder Daniells was brought into close association with W. W. Prescott, former president of Battle Creek College. As editor of the Review and Herald and vice-president of the General Conference during the period of 1901 to 1909, Prescott worked closely with Daniells. Early in their association, Prescott brought to Daniells' attention what was termed the "new view" of the "daily" of Daniel 8. His own study and association with workers in Europe had led Prescott to question the presentation in the widely read Uriah Smith book Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, which came to be known as the "old view." At the time, and in succeeding months Daniells counseled that "nothing be said, that the matter should not be agitated or discussed," for fear that something wrong might be brought in, and "for fear that the question of heresy might be raised, and people get unsettled, and
247
controversy be set on foot"(DF 200, AGD, in interview at Elmshaven, Jan. 26, 1908). {6BIO 246.2}
The question of the meaning of the daily was not a new one in Adventist history. William Miller had taught that it referred to paganism, but even before the Disappointment, that view was questioned. The classic 1843 chart produced by Fitch, and used by all the Advent preachers, omitted reference to the meaning of the daily. {6BIO 247.1}

In 1847 O. R. L. Crosier had expressed the view that the daily refers to the high-priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Uriah Smith in 1854 briefly expounded this position (RH, March 28, 1854). But Smith, rising to prominence shortly afterward, in his Thoughts on the Book of Daniel (1873 ed.,p. 163), went back to the view of William Miller. Smith's became the accepted position until the turn of the century, and thus was known as the "old view." Prescott's position was similar to Crosier's, but nevertheless acquired the less-than-accurate designation as the "new view." {6BIO 247.2}

Ellen White had made no mention of the daily in The Great Controversy, her volume dealing with prophecy. Her only use of the term is found in Early Writings, pages 74, 75, where she reports a vision given to her on September 23, 1850, and this in connection with the subject of time setting. {6BIO 247.3}

The Review and Herald of April 4, 1907, carried an article from the pen of pioneer worker J. N. Loughborough, entitled "The Thirteen Hundred and Thirty-five Days," which, while not making reference to it as such, upheld the old view. As the months passed, Review editor W. W. Prescott found it difficult to refrain from introducing the new view of the daily, which to him carried great light. He was aware that while still in Australia, Ellen White had received a letter from L. R. Conradi, leader of the church's work in Europe, stating that he could not harmonize his views on the question with Smith's and that if she had any light on the subject, he would appreciate receiving it. If she had no light, he intended to publish his view--the new view. The fact that Ellen White did not reply to Conradi's letter left the impression that she had no light on the point (DF 201a, WCW to J. E. White, June 1, 1910). {6BIO 247.4}

The matter simmered, Daniells unwilling to make it an issue since he had his hands more than full in the reorganization of the
248
work of the church and the struggle with Battle Creek problems. The matter was discussed now and again at General Conference Committee meetings, with both viewpoints being considered, but no conclusion was reached (DF 200). {6BIO 247.5}

As careful students took time to examine all the evidence, many were led to accept the new view--A. G. Daniells and W. C. White among them--and polarization began to develop. After the close of the Pacific Union Conference session at St. Helena in late January, 1908, some of the workers lingered on to spend a little time at Elmshaven studying the question. They met in the Elmshaven office--Daniells, Prescott, Loughborough, Haskell and his wife, W. C. White, C. C. Crisler, and D. E. Robinson (ibid.). {6BIO 248.1}

The meeting, in place of bringing some solutions to the problem, served only to harden positions. On January 27, 1908, the day after the meeting, S. N. Haskell wrote to A. G. Daniells, stating that "since the interview yesterday morning I have less confidence in the position taken by Elder Prescott than before."--DF 201. {6BIO 248.2}

Counsel Against Agitating the Subject

Before Prescott left for the East on February 6, Ellen White spoke to him about the problem, telling him not to publish anything at that time that would unsettle the minds of the people regarding positions held in the past. She promised to write him on the subject (35 WCW, p. 217). {6BIO 248.3}

She did not write at once, but on June 24, 1908, she wrote to Prescott of perils that at times threatened his ministry. Among other things she said: {6BIO 248.4} You are not beyond the danger of making mistakes. You
sometimes allow your mind to center upon a certain train of
thought, and you are in danger of making a mountain out of a
molehill.--Letter 224, 1908. {6BIO 248.5}
She spoke of a tendency on his part "to sway from clearly defined truth and give undue attention to some items which seem to require hours of argument to prove, when in reality they do not need to be handled at all." She urged that when tempted to do this he should say, "We cannot afford to arouse arguments upon points that are not essential for the salvation of the soul." "Keep to the
249
simplicity of the Word," she urged. {6BIO 248.6}

A week later she wrote Prescott again in a letter opening with the words: {6BIO 249.1} I am instructed to say to you, Let there be no questions
agitated at this time in the Review that will tend to unsettle
minds. . . . We have no time now to enter into unnecessary
controversy, but we should earnestly consider the need of
seeking the Lord for true conversion of heart and life. There
should be determined efforts made to secure sanctification of
soul and mind. {6BIO 249.2}
And then she counseled: It will prove to be a great mistake if you agitate at this time
the question regarding the "daily," which has been occupying much
of your attention of late. I have been shown that the result of your
making this question a prominent issue would be that the minds
of a large number will be directed to an unnecessary controversy,
and that questioning and confusion will be developed in our
ranks. . . . My brother, let us be slow to raise questions that will
be a source of temptation to our people. {6BIO 249.3}
Then she referred to her own relation to the matter and the fact that God had given no special revelation on it, declaring: {6BIO 249.4} I have had no special light on the point presented for
discussion, and I do not see the need of this discussion. But I am
instructed to tell you that this small matter, upon which you are
concentrating your thought, will become a great mountain
unless you determine to let it alone. {6BIO 249.5}
I have been instructed that the Lord has not placed upon you
the burden you are now carrying regarding this matter, and that
it is not profitable for you to spend so much time and attention in
its consideration. . . . There have been different opinions regarding the "daily," and there will continue to be. If the Lord has seen fit to let this matter rest for so many years without correcting the same, would it not be wisdom on your part to refrain from presenting your views concerning it?
--Letter 226, 1908. {6BIO 249.6}
This letter was not sent off immediately, and we are not
250
informed of what Ellen White may have instructed him orally, but no articles on the subject appeared in subsequent issues of the Review. {6BIO 249.7}
There's more, but I'll have to post it later.

Sophia7

28th February 2007, 12:06 AM

More from Biography of E. G. White, Vol. 6, The Later Elmshaven Years 1905-1915, by Arthur L. White (1982), ch. 19, "The Threat of Distracting Doctrinal Controversy": S. N. Haskell and the 1843 Chart

On August 28, 1908, almost two months after writing to Prescott, she wrote to Elder S. N. Haskell, a stalwart advocate of the old view. Because Ellen White in Early Writings had made reference to "the 1843 chart" in connection with a mention of the daily, Haskell had arranged for the publication of a facsimile copy of the chart and was circulating it. Her testimony to Haskell opened: {6BIO 250.1} I have had cautions given me in regard to the necessity of our
keeping a united front. This is a matter of importance to us at this
time. As individuals we need to act with the greatest caution. {6BIO 250.2}
I wrote to Elder Prescott, telling him that he must be
exceedingly careful not to introduce subjects in the Review
that would seem to point out flaws in our past experience. I told
him that this matter on which he believes a mistake has been made is
not a vital question, and that, should it be given prominence
now, our enemies would take advantage of it, and make a
mountain out of a molehill. {6BIO 250.3}
She continued:To you also I say that this subject should not be agitated at
this time. Now, my brother, I feel that at this crisis in our
experience that chart which you have had republished should
not be circulated. You have made a mistake in this matter. Satan
is determinedly at work to bring about issues that will create
confusion. There are those who would be delighted to see our
ministers at an issue on this question, and they would make
much of it.--Letter 250, 1908. {6BIO 250.4}
While she was without special light from the Lord on the particular point in question, she did receive light on the matter of the controversy the discussion was causing, and she wrote, "I have been instructed that regarding what might be said on either side of this question, silence at this time is eloquence." She pointed out that "Satan is watching for an opportunity to create division among our
251
leading ministers." In this two-page letter she made a second reference to the chart Haskell had printed. Under the chart he had quoted words from Early Writings in regard to the view of the daily held by those who gave the "judgment hour cry" in the early 1840s. She wrote him, "It was a mistake to publish the chart until you could all get together and come to an agreement concerning the matter. You have not acted wisely in bringing to the front a subject that must create discussion, and the bringing out of various opinions." {6BIO 250.5}

Then, significantly, in closing her letter, she declared: Elder Haskell, I am unable to define clearly the points that
are questioned. Let us not agitate a subject that will give the
impression that as a people we hold varied opinions, and thus
open the way for those to work who wish to leave the impression
on minds that we are not led by God. It will also be a source of
temptation to those who are not thoroughly converted, and will
lead to the making of rash moves.--ibid. (Italics supplied.) {6BIO 251.1}
How different was the situation brought to view here than in 1905 when Ellen White was called upon to meet decisively the views advocated by Elder A. F. Ballenger, which involved the work of Christ in man's behalf in the heavenly sanctuary. On that she had not only the evidence of the confirming miracle-working power of the Spirit of God in the establishment of the doctrine but repeated visions, as well, pointing out the errors in the views of Dr. Kellogg and Elder Ballenger, which would, if accepted, do away with that fundamental truth. {6BIO 251.2}

The Issue of Inspiration

In the case of the daily, however, those who held the old view, with Haskell in the lead, maintained that to veer away from it would strike a mortal blow to confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy because of what they claimed was her endorsement of that view in the chapter "The Gathering Time," published in her first little book in 1851 and republished in Early Writings, pages 74-76. {6BIO 251.3}

In this chapter, written in September, 1850, in the context of time setting and containing such expressions as "Time has not been a test since 1844, and it will never again be a test" and "The message of the third angel . . . must not be hung on time," she wrote:
252 {6BIO 251.4} I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the
Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as
He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in
some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was
removed. {6BIO 252.1}
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Dan. 8:12) that the word
"sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong
to the text, and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those
who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before
1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the "daily";
but in the confusion since 1844, other views have been
embraced, and darkness and confusion have followed. Time has
not been a test since 1844, and it will never again be a test.--EW,
pp. 74, 75. {6BIO 252.2}
The advocates of the old view maintained that the wording of this statement placed Heaven's endorsement on the view of the daily held by Miller and