Communion

[Confess]

I did not go to many Lutheran congregations.

As a matter of fact I only went to one, the one I am a member of.

It is liturgical. Has general confessions and declaration of forgiveness of sins and so forth (primarily from the Green book, sometimes the Blue book).

Concerning Communion, Pastor of 49 years proclaims what it is and asks attendees to partake only if they agree with how he described the sacraments.
(He does that when he sees new people at the pews. Small church with 2 liturgical services).

When people approach and kneel at the altar rail, he communes the adults and blesses children/infants.

It is an ELCA congregation.
Does anyone see a problem with such an approach?

Thanks,
Ed

I have a problem with the way the communion was handled.

The pastor is the shepherd of his flock. As a shepherd, he does not go to his sheep to ask if it would remain in the flock, nor does he ask the sheep to do anything. Rather he guides and leads the sheep.

In Communion if a pastor does not tend to his sheep by ensuring that they believe, then he is responcible for hurting them. He is, in effect, administering harm to them.

The age old practice of closed communion used to work much harder making sure that no one would even accidentally takes communion to their harm.

It is all about loving your neighbor and not wishing them harm.

It is all about subjecting yourself to what the Bible says and not worrying about hurt feelings.

My old congregation still has members who remember coming to church on horse and buggy and waiting for their parents as they went in on Saturday to register for communion. The pastor would ask them what they believed (even though they were long-standing members) and the person would reply by stating their faith.

As far as blessing children. I see no harm in that. Most closed communion congregation as for non-members to please come up and be blessed by the pastor as well.

[Edial]

I have a problem with the way the communion was handled.

The pastor is the shepherd of his flock. As a shepherd, he does not go to his sheep to ask if it would remain in the flock, nor does he ask the sheep to do anything. Rather he guides and leads the sheep.

In Communion if a pastor does not tend to his sheep by ensuring that they believe, then he is responcible for hurting them. He is, in effect, administering harm to them.

The age old practice of closed communion used to work much harder making sure that no one would even accidentally takes communion to their harm.

It is all about loving your neighbor and not wishing them harm.

It is all about subjecting yourself to what the Bible says and not worrying about hurt feelings.

My old congregation still has members who remember coming to church on horse and buggy and waiting for their parents as they went in on Saturday to register for communion. The pastor would ask them what they believed (even though they were long-standing members) and the person would reply by stating their faith.

As far as blessing children. I see no harm in that. Most closed communion congregation as for non-members to please come up and be blessed by the pastor as well.
OK.
But in the Scriptures it states that a partaker is to judge himself whether he is competent or not in partaking.

It is not up to the Pastor to judge.

How do the Scriptures below disagree with that?

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
1CO 11:33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.

You see, I like the conservative churches.
I also respect them.

But I do not agree with them on this point.

Thanks,
Ed

[porterross]

But if a communicant has never been catechised how can they examine themselves properly, know how to do so or even that it's required of them?

[Edial]

But if a communicant has never been catechised how can they examine themselves properly, know how to do so or even that it's required of them?
But this text was not written for the Lutherans only with cathechism being it's reference point.

Examining oneself means testing oneself.

We see 2 points in examining oneself -
1. Concerning recognizing the body and blood of Christ. (v.29)
2. Concerning caring for each other (v.33)

If these two points are present what might be other Scriptural reasons keeping one out of the Communion.

(And of course, he must be a believer, since it is for the believers in Jesus Christ).

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
1CO 11:33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.

Thanks,
Ed

[pastorjimg]

To add to the discussion. Luther's small catechism. The Sacrament of the Altar- section IV. How to receive this Sacrament worthily?

Who receives this sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation are certainly fine outward training. But that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: "Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins."

But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words "for you:" require hearts to believe.

[porterross]

I understand that it's not Lutheran specific, but your point assumes that all those who would come to the altar have read and fully understand the Scriptures and know what is expected of them or even why they should want to partake.

Many outside of any formal instruction have no concept of why the Lord's Supper is so important. They might see it as something they do a few times a year because everyone does it, but if you ask them what it truly means or about the new covenant, they are unsure of level of its importance to us (meaning those of us who have been catechised).
My perspective is not one of arrogance, but from experience with many non-denoms and southern Baptists growing up. They didn't understand why communion was so serious yet offered so often in the Lutheran church. It's all I've ever known so I was usually baffled by their lack of understanding.:scratch:
Now, it makes a lot more sense. ;)

Peace

[Confess]

We must not overlook the responcibility of the pastor to take care of his flock. Sure one must examine himself, but as Porterross correctly says, how can one examine himself if he does not know what to examine?

When I was attending an ELCA congregation, visitors were not told anything. Communion was a social event meant to make everyone feel accepted.

I am not talking ELCA specific but am including all congregations from all denominations. Even the "conservative" Lutheran denominations.

A Pastor is not the judge over the person. He is the caretaker of his sheep. He ensures that all people in his congregation understand what they are taking. He understands that some attend congregations that do not teach this and therefore he cannot commune them because they do not reject that false teaching.

It is most loving and caring for a pastor to step out and ensure that his congregation are united here so that he does not give the person something that will harm them.

What person would want to do that?

[DaRev]

A Pastor is not the judge over the person. He is the caretaker of his sheep. He ensures that all people in his congregation understand what they are taking. He understands that some attend congregations that do not teach this and therefore he cannot commune them because they do not reject that false teaching.

It is most loving and caring for a pastor to step out and ensure that his congregation are united here so that he does not give the person something that will harm them.


The pastor, as the one whom God has called and ordained to hold that office, is not only the caretaker of the sheep, but is also the steward of the mysteries. It is his duty and responsibility to administer the Sacrament according to Christ's command, which requires discernment of the body, self-examination, and acknowledgement of the sinfulness of the participant. God's word clearly says that those who receive the Sacrament without these things is sinning and bringing God's judgement upon themselves. The pastor, as the caretaker, needs to do whatever he can to make sure that doesn't happen. While he cannot look into the heart of every person, he can and is required by his calling to look at what he can see in order to make sure that those who receive the Sacrament are doing so according to Christ's command.

Belief in the real presence of the body and blood of Christ is most certainly necessary for worthy reception. One's confession of faith is the primary indicator of whether or not they truly believe and understand this. Someone who is a member of a congregation that rejects the clear teaching of God found in his word certainly cannot fully understand the Sacrament, discern the body, or partake in a manner that is beneficial.

[Edial]

I understand that it's not Lutheran specific, but your point assumes that all those who would come to the altar have read and fully understand the Scriptures and know what is expected of them or even why they should want to partake.

Many outside of any formal instruction have no concept of why the Lord's Supper is so important. They might see it as something they do a few times a year because everyone does it, but if you ask them what it truly means or about the new covenant, they are unsure of level of its importance to us (meaning those of us who have been catechised).
My perspective is not one of arrogance, but from experience with many non-denoms and southern Baptists growing up. They didn't understand why communion was so serious yet offered so often in the Lutheran church. It's all I've ever known so I was usually baffled by their lack of understanding.:scratch:
Now, it makes a lot more sense. ;)

Peace
And I agree.

I was "born" into an Armenian Orthodox Apostolic Church in USSR.

Most of us when attending church for family reasons had no idea what Communion was, yet partook with respect (something holy).

People have to know what Communion is. Definitely.

And concerning the Baptists, they want the Communion performed rarely primarily for a reason that one tends to trivialize it if done often.
But they are trapped into a symbolic understanding of it, and see that the symbolic approach tends to trivialize Communion.

Their understanding of "recognizing the body and blood of Christ" is to recognize it not in the elements, but the one on the cross 2000 years ago.

Again, the text in 1Cor. leaves for such an approach also. But that is their thing to resolve, especially when many Baptists (that I know) do not really believe (secretly) that it is purely symbolic.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

The pastor, as the one whom God has called and ordained to hold that office, is not only the caretaker of the sheep, but is also the steward of the mysteries. It is his duty and responsibility to administer the Sacrament according to Christ's command, which requires discernment of the body, self-examination, and acknowledgement of the sinfulness of the participant. God's word clearly says that those who receive the Sacrament without these things is sinning and bringing God's judgement upon themselves. The pastor, as the caretaker, needs to do whatever he can to make sure that doesn't happen. While he cannot look into the heart of every person, he can and is required by his calling to look at what he can see in order to make sure that those who receive the Sacrament are doing so according to Christ's command.

Belief in the real presence of the body and blood of Christ is most certainly necessary for worthy reception. One's confession of faith is the primary indicator of whether or not they truly believe and understand this. Someone who is a member of a congregation that rejects the clear teaching of God found in his word certainly cannot fully understand the Sacrament, discern the body, or partake in a manner that is beneficial.

And what would you do if a person who does not believe (or does not fully understand) the sacraments approaches the altar?
You already pronounced what it is and that person still approaches.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

To add to the discussion. Luther's small catechism. The Sacrament of the Altar- section IV. How to receive this Sacrament worthily?

Who receives this sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation are certainly fine outward training. But that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: "Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins."

But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words "for you:" require hearts to believe.

Yes. That too. :)

[LilLamb219]

And what would you do if a person who does not believe (or does not fully understand) the sacraments approaches the altar?
You already pronounced what it is and that person still approaches.

Most church bulletins (at least the ones I've been to) have a statement that Guests should speak with the pastor before communion if they desire to commune. The person who comes to the altar without even speaking to the pastor has a total disregard for the rest of the congregation as communion is not just vertical but horizontal. We don't just walk into someone's house and demand to be bed, do we?

[porterross]

I remember seeing my pastor pass by people and offer no wafer at the communion rail when I was a kid. If they are so clueless as to not know it's necessary to visit with him beforehand, than that's a good sign that they are not aware of our views on the Lord's Supper.

[Confess]

The congregations I have gone to always request that when you come up, to cross your hands over you chest to let the pastor know that you are up there for a blessing.

[Edial]

Most church bulletins (at least the ones I've been to) have a statement that Guests should speak with the pastor before communion if they desire to commune. The person who comes to the altar without even speaking to the pastor has a total disregard for the rest of the congregation as communion is not just vertical but horizontal. We don't just walk into someone's house and demand to be bed, do we?
That is a good point.

If one clearly realizes that he must speak to Pastor prior to it, he should not be partaking.
He is testing, in a way.

But not all read the bulletin.

And many non-Lutherans that come in "off the street" see that church as just a church.

[Edial]

I remember seeing my pastor pass by people and offer no wafer at the communion rail when I was a kid. If they are so clueless as to not know it's necessary to visit with him beforehand, than that's a good sign that they are not aware of our views on the Lord's Supper.
My guess would be you were raised in the church.

But not all were.
Yet they come to partake.

Even when children tried approaching Christ and the dsiciples tried stopping them, Christ rebuked his own disciples for doing that.

[porterross]

My guess would be you were raised in the church.

But not all were.
Yet they come to partake.

Even when children tried approaching Christ and the dsiciples tried stopping them, Christ rebuked his own disciples for doing that.
Approaching Christ is not the same as partaking of the sacrament, is it? We all must be introduced to Christ in some manner. I see no parallel between the two.

Does the ELCA not require a communicant to at least be baptised?

Can one be catechised in the ELCA prior to baptism?


Yes, I was raised in the LCMS, but failed to hold it dear for too many years as an adult and only now realize just how important and deeply meaningful such things that pertain to our teachings are.

People need to be encouraged to know what it is they claim to believe. Otherwise, they are done a disservice by being expected to follow the crowd.

Education and enlightenment are key. If after being presented a church's doctrine and views on the sacrament, if someone cannot in good conscience say that they agree or even understand, they are being unfair mostly to themselves to take part in a church's practices.

Peace

[KagomeShuko]

My guess would be you were raised in the church.

But not all were.
Yet they come to partake.

Even when children tried approaching Christ and the dsiciples tried stopping them, Christ rebuked his own disciples for doing that.
Ed, I'd give you reps for all this if I could!

[LilLamb219]

My guess would be you were raised in the church.

But not all were.
Yet they come to partake.

Even when children tried approaching Christ and the dsiciples tried stopping them, Christ rebuked his own disciples for doing that.

Yes, Ed, children are generally able to approach the altar for a blessing...we don't keep them away. But Paul warns us that we need to recognize the body of Christ...can strangers and little children do that? Is the warning not valid?

[Edial]

Approaching Christ is not the same as partaking of the sacrament, is it? We all must be introduced to Christ in some manner. I see no parallel between the two.
Let me put it another way.
If one partakes unworthily (without judging or testing his/her own heart) God will judge him.

Each individual is required to judge himsef.
And if he will not, God will judge him.

However, we are not told to judge each other in such matters.

You see, Christ is not our son, but God's.
And he will do the judging.

And he does judge, but sometimes not like we would like.

For example, it is stated that the judgement manifests itself in people getting ill or even dying.

But Baptists (that believe it to be symbolic) are not dying. Why?

What I am saying is that we sometimes "take over" for God and "defend" the elements, instead of being concerned about own worthiness in His eyes.

God will judge and he does - let's leave that to Him.
Our role however, is to examine ourselves prior to the Communion.

Does the ELCA not require a communicant to at least be baptised?

Can one be catechised in the ELCA prior to baptism?
Of course their require one to be baptised.
One needs to be a believer to partake, since it is for the believers.


Yes, I was raised in the LCMS, but failed to hold it dear for too many years as an adult and only now realize just how important and deeply meaningful such things that pertain to our teachings are.

People need to be encouraged to know what it is they claim to believe. Otherwise, they are done a disservice by being expected to follow the crowd.

Education and enlightenment are key. If after being presented a church's doctrine and views on the sacrament, if someone cannot in good conscience say that they agree or even understand, they are being unfair mostly to themselves to take part in a church's practices.

Peace
Completely agree. :)

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

Baptists aren't dying? What? I just saw an obit the other day for a Baptist who died...how interesting you say they don't ;)

[Edial]

Baptists aren't dying? What? I just saw an obit the other day for a Baptist who died...how interesting you say they don't ;)
They don't die, just reincarnate into Lutherans. :)

[synger]

They don't die, just reincarnate into Lutherans. :)
So.. if "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" then does that mean everyone will be Lutheran after death? *grins*

[Edial]

So.. if "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" then does that mean everyone will be Lutheran after death? *grins*
Yes.
Yet some would resist even there.

So, at the judgement they will be asked for at least 3 reasons why they never became one.
And these need to be good ones.

Otherwise there are sections for such transgressions in Dante's Inferno.

Ed

[synger]

Reminds me of the old joke

Three church-active women died and went to the pearly gates to see St.
Peter. The first woman was Catholic and said to St. Peter, "This is my
Rosary." St. Peter says, "Yes, I see that it is well-worn. You may come
into Heaven.

The second woman was Babptist and said to St. Peter,"This is my
Bible." St. Peter says,"Yes, I can see that the pages are nearly worn
out from reading. You may come into Heaven.

The Third woman was Lutheran. She looked up at St. Peter, took a
covered dish from behind her back and said,"St. Peter, this is my
casserole."

I've heard it with the third lady being Episcopalian, Lutheran, or Presbyterian. My mother taught me that we are often called to provide hospitality and to feed the body, which can offer an avenue for evangelizing, sharing, and community-building.