Anabaptist Persecution

[InnerPhyre]

Can anyone give me some info on the Calvinist persecution of Anabaptists? Is it true that Anabaptists were drowned to death to mock their rejection of paedobaptism? Did John Calvin himself participate in any of this?

[tulc]

Almost everyone has a history of burning anabaptist's. :sigh:
tulc(we can be quite...aggravating) :sorry:

[tulc]

Even the Baptists threw us out a couple of months ago. :eek:
tulc(working on not being hurt) :sigh:

[creidibh]

Even the Baptists through us out a couple of months ago. :eek:
tulc(working on not being hurt) :sigh:

I've seen other references to this, what happened there? Because there are no Anabaptists around here where I live, I for a time just was "Baptist" for the sake of convenience, so I'm curious what the rift was about.

[plmarquette]

Here are some links to check out ..
Menno Simmons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01445b.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/anabapt.htm
Michael Satler
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0563.htm

[InnerPhyre]

Here are some links to check out ..
Menno Simmons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01445b.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/anabapt.htm
Michael Satler
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0563.htm
Thank you plmarquette. God bless you.


Sorry about the stuff with the baptist folks. Lots of times people do things they think are right without realizing the pain they may cause to others. I do this too sometimes, may God forgive me. Peace be to all.

[MrJim]

Can anyone give me some info on the Calvinist persecution of Anabaptists? Is it true that Anabaptists were drowned to death to mock their rejection of paedobaptism? Did John Calvin himself participate in any of this?

The nature of anabaptist persecution is a matter of public record. Persecution took many forms, from exile to death. One of the first recorded martyrs was Felix Manz, and he was martyred by the Reformed church when Zurich (Zwingli) set a law forbidding re-baptizing.

Calvin generally was guilty of exiling, but his writings about the anabaptists being heretics incited plenty of other activity.

But here's the deal: The Reformed church made an official apology to the anabaptist church many years ago-the repented of these past errors. So in forgiving them we cannot hold those offenses against them any longer. And since Calvin was a part of the Reformed church he is forgiven.

{Linky/Reformed} (http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses2/glimpses201.shtml)

{Linky/Lutheran} (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/14.21.html)

{Linky/RC} (http://www.mennoweekly.org/APRIL/04-18-05/DIALOGUE04-18.html)

The Lutherans and the Roman Catholics have taken steps recognizing these persecutions in the past. While it is a matter of public record & history, it is a forgiven deed. And for any of the anabaptists to continue to "glory" under that persecution is to wear a false crown. Praise God for the martyred saints and for their example--and as for the persecuted "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

BTW, do I understand that there was persecution of Old Believers by the Orthodox Church?:scratch:

[InnerPhyre]

The nature of anabaptist persecution is a matter of public record. Persecution took many forms, from exile to death. One of the first recorded martyrs was Felix Manz, and he was martyred by the Reformed church when Zurich (Zwingli) set a law forbidding re-baptizing.

Calvin generally was guilty of exiling, but his writings about the anabaptists being heretics incited plenty of other activity.

But here's the deal: The Reformed church made an official apology to the anabaptist church many years ago-the repented of these past errors. So in forgiving them we cannot hold those offenses against them any longer. And since Calvin was a part of the Reformed church he is forgiven.

{Linky/Reformed} (http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses2/glimpses201.shtml)

{Linky/Lutheran} (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/14.21.html)

{Linky/RC} (http://www.mennoweekly.org/APRIL/04-18-05/DIALOGUE04-18.html)

The Lutherans and the Roman Catholics have taken steps recognizing these persecutions in the past. While it is a matter of public record & history, it is a forgiven deed. And for any of the anabaptists to continue to "glory" under that persecution is to wear a false crown. Praise God for the martyred saints and for their example--and as for the persecuted "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

BTW, do I understand that there was persecution of Old Believers by the Orthodox Church?:scratch:
Thanks for the answer.


I'm not sure about the extent of the persecution of the "Old Believers."

I don't know a whole lot about them other than they were the product of a horrendous translation of the liturgy that was filled with errors. A saint whose name I cannot recall, who was fluent in Greek, saw the errors and said "Umm...guys...this is all wrong here....the correct translation of these is A, B, and C. He was nearly killed as a result of it, but the errors were corrected and those who refused to accept the correct translation took the name "Old Believers."

I don't know much about their beliefs and how they vary from Orthodox beliefs. I just know that they cross themselves with two fingers instead of three.

They've been excommunicated, and although I don't know, I wouldn't be against the idea that they may have been exiled at some point. Historically speaking, the Orthodox Church doesn't have alot of violence in its past with regard to persecution. We don't have a history of burning people all willy-nilly like the Roman Church, but there certainly a history of violence in that regard to some degree. Any violence committed against heretics (not calling anyone heretics, just using the word for the sake of historical context) is disgusting and unOrthodox. The shameful things that the Czar ordered against Russian Jews come to mind, may God have mercy.

[MrJim]

Thanks for the answer.


I'm not sure about the extent of the persecution of the "Old Believers."

I don't know a whole lot about them other than they were the product of a horrendous translation of the liturgy that was filled with errors. A saint whose name I cannot recall, who was fluent in Greek, saw the errors and said "Umm...guys...this is all wrong here....the correct translation of these is A, B, and C. He was nearly killed as a result of it, but the errors were corrected and those who refused to accept the correct translation took the name "Old Believers."

I don't know much about their beliefs and how they vary from Orthodox beliefs. I just know that they cross themselves with two fingers instead of three.

They've been excommunicated, and although I don't know, I wouldn't be against the idea that they may have been exiled at some point. Historically speaking, the Orthodox Church doesn't have alot of violence in its past with regard to persecution. We don't have a history of burning people all willy-nilly like the Roman Church, but there certainly a history of violence in that regard to some degree. Any violence committed against heretics (not calling anyone heretics, just using the word for the sake of historical context) is disgusting and unOrthodox. The shameful things that the Czar ordered against Russian Jews come to mind, may God have mercy.

Interesting...there's a book called The Russian's Secret that speaks of these old believers in a positive sense; guess I'll have to dig it out and look at it again.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

that doesn't follow - that calvin is forgiven for anything he never repented of., just beccause someone else said they're sorry much later.... ??? no where in scripture is that plausible, is it ?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

also, btw, in tulsa, [some][ baptist, calvinists, methodists and lutherans] still actively persecute(in whatever way they can get away with) seventh-day anabaptists who boldly live the life of Truth in Yahshua and any others who love the Truth simply and fully (their lives testifying of Yahshua in all things and never accepting a lie).
the martyrs in tulsa are ridiculed, mocked, laughed at and out, not allowed in the assemblies which are for show only. or worse is done to them, by so called pillars of religion.

[MrJim]

that doesn't follow - that calvin is forgiven for anything he never repented of., just beccause someone else said they're sorry much later.... ??? no where in scripture is that plausible, is it ?

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

...and that's good enough for me:thumbsup:

[MrJim]

also, btw, in tulsa, [some][ baptist, calvinists, methodists and lutherans] still actively persecute(in whatever way they can get away with) seventh-day anabaptists who boldly live the life of Truth in Yahshua and any others who love the Truth simply and fully (their lives testifying of Yahshua in all things and never accepting a lie).
the martyrs in tulsa are ridiculed, mocked, laughed at and out, not allowed in the assemblies which are for show only. or worse is done to them, by so called pillars of religion.

Interesting, tell us more. Are these the 7th Day German Baptist Brethren or another group?

And is there great rejoicing in their persecution, or are they bitter and frustrated?

[TheCosmicGospel]

I would like to know honestly why these peole were persecuted. What were they doing that caused such a ruckus? Was it more of a larger peasant rebellion against the land owners? Is the blood flow all on one side? What will the Anabaptists own up to?

[tulc]

I would like to know honestly why these peole were persecuted. What were they doing that caused such a ruckus? Was it more of a larger peasant rebellion against the land owners? Is the blood flow all on one side? What will the Anabaptists own up to?

Which anabaptists are you wondering about? :scratch:
tulc(there's several hundred years of persecution you might have to narrow it down some) :sorry:

[MrJim]

I would like to know honestly why these peole were persecuted. What were they doing that caused such a ruckus? Was it more of a larger peasant rebellion against the land owners? Is the blood flow all on one side? What will the Anabaptists own up to?

One the one hand there were the Meunsterites that were a violent sect, and the entire anabaptist movement was painted with their anarchy.

On the other hand the reformers decided that all anabaptists were heretics-they didn't like their beliefs-particularly not baptizing infants and refusing to fight in their wars. Martyr's Mirror is filled with stories of simple "Bible Believing" Christians executed for their faith, but even more were imprisoned or exiled.

The absolute HILARIOUS part of it, if you will allow, is that the reformers (Luther/Calvin/Zwingli) started the whole self interepretation of scripture anyhow (SOLA SCRIPTURA BABY!!) so it was pretty inconsistent of them to decide that THEIR interepretations were superior to others, especially when they could not decide amongst themselves "correct" doctrine. They set themselves up as Protestant Popes, doing what they accused the Catholic Magesterium of doing...what a complete collection of hypocrites...

[TheCosmicGospel]

Except for a complete lack of evidence, you could be on to something.

Cosmic

[MrJim]

So what sort of evidence to you want-burnt bones and ashes?

[tulc]

how about this?
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_061120mennos.shtml
tulc(not sure what you're looking for either) :scratch:

[MrJim]

http://www.reformedreader.org/history/anabaptiststory.htm

William Estep, the author, is a baptist historian...this is a synopsis from The Anabaptist Story

[MrJim]

Another interesting essay from a Reformed perspective, which at first may seem to justify the persecution, but still goes back to my point-the anabaptists, the right one and the wrong ones, were doing what the reformers were doing-self interpreting scripture...

http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/anab_003.html